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Not too long from now, most cars will be electric. Why? Two reasons: because electric cars are far more efficient than any other kind of car, and because they are the ultimate multi-fuel cars. Sound bold, maybe crazy? Read on.
The May 2006 issue of Popular Mechanics magazine got it right in its typical easy-to-understand way. The article was about biofuel, but they compared many technologies in the centerfold sidebar: gasoline, ethanol, methanol, biodiesel, compressed natural gas, hydrogen fuel cells, and, of course, electric cars. They compared the cost of a cross-country drive for each of the cars, all of similar size. The benchmark drive cost is $212 in a Honda Civic. The VW Diesel Golf came close at $230. E85 ethanol (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) came in at $425; methanol cost $619; the hydrogen fuel cell drive cost a whopping $804! Compressed Natural Gas looked pretty good at $110. And the electric car? $60. And the article wasn’t even about electric cars…
Cost per mile is a reasonable approximation of energy consumption. (I set about doing a direct energy consumption comparison in our white paper, but money is a whole lot easier to understand.)
The neat thing about electricity is that pretty much any burnable fuel can be converted to electricity efficiently. Sure, there are quite a few inefficient old power plants from the ‘50s still running, but modern, readily-available technology means that even coal can be gasified and burnt cleanly and very efficiently in a combined cycle plant. This is nice to know, considering that we are sitting on an enormous reserve of coal. If there ever was an OCEC (Organization of Coal Exporting Countries), we’d be Saudi Arabia, so to speak.
General Electric makes an advanced, combined-cycle natural gas generator called the H-System Generator that measures in at 60% efficiency. This plant could easily burn “biogas” produced from biomass (corn or switchgrass, take your pick). If we powered our electric cars this way, the same acreage of fuel crop would transport an electric car four times as many miles than if we made ethanol out of the stuff and burnt it in a piston engine car. Should we decide to allow our cars’ fuel to compete for cropland with food, this difference matters!
But the true beauty becomes apparent when you realize that we can make electricity in so many different ways. I’m putting solar panels on the roof of my house to power my car. Many people have pointed out that nuclear power produces no greenhouse gasses. The shot of the Tesla Roadster in the movie, Who Killed the Electric Car, was taken at Altamont Pass, right in front of a huge windmill farm. We don’t need to decide now which is the “right” technology. Indeed, the answer will likely be a mix of these, combined with some amount of fossil fuels, depending on where in the world we are generating power.
Note, by the way, that we can put a million solar panels on our roofs, we can cover the coastlines with windmills, we can invent amazing tide-powered generators, or clean nuclear power plants, and we will not reduce our dependence on oil by one drop unless we can use that electricity to power cars. Why? Because we don’t use oil to make electricity, so all those cool electric generating technologies do not offset our oil consumption. The fact is that the vast majority of our oil consumption is used for transportation. Trains, planes, and automobiles, folks.
So what’s wrong with electric cars? Why not switch over today? Quite a few of you have nailed it in your comments to this blog already: recharge time. Even with a Tesla Roadster, you would need to stop for a couple of hours on a trip from LA to SF. Even the longest-range EV is not suitable for long road trips quite yet.
You all have proposed several solutions: quick-charging, battery pack swapping, and a gasoline (or whatever) powered auxiliary generator. Though appealing, each of these ideas has very significant technical problems that I will not attempt to lay out here. But there is another alternative suggested by some of you: simply increase the driving range enough. We can’t do it today: 250 miles range was hard enough! But the capacity of batteries – particularly lithium ion type batteries – has increased steadily by about 8% per year for the last couple of decades. All indications are that this will continue into the future, doubling in capacity every ten years. (And there are hints of breakthrough technologies that might speed things up for us.)
Think about it. If your car can go – say – 500 miles on a charge, who cares about stopping for a charge? A 500 mile drive is about 10 hours’ solid driving – more than enough for even a serious road trip. (I know: some of you will talk about crazy trips like I used to take, making it from Chicago to San Luis Obispo in 42 hours flat, but you’ve got to admit that this kind of drive is way down the pointy end of the bell curve!)
Do you remember when your cellphone wouldn’t last through the day? I do. In those days, we were acutely aware of the charge time because we had to recharge while driving in our cars or at work. I remember plugging in to get a bit of charge for my phone in a VC’s conference room while I was pitching a startup idea! But today I bet most of you have no idea how long your phone takes to charge. Is it 3 hours? 4 hours? Who cares? You come home, plug it in, and forget about it. In the morning, you unplug it and go. We just don’t need to charge up during the day so charge time isn’t an issue.
Electric cars will be the same. Once the driving range is enough to make it through the day, we will only ever charge while we sleep. The Tesla Roadster is like that already for most of us, except when we want to take a long road trip. With a 500 mile range, even road trips are covered.
And that means charging stations, like gas stations, are soon to be as obsolete as cigarette lighter chargers for our phones. We will need a charger in our garages, at hotels, and at campgrounds. And that’s it. Nice side business for Hyatt Hotels and KOA, by the way…
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Editor’s Suggestion: Come and see a Tesla Roadster at Pebble Beach this weekend!
Posted in the categories: Performance, Environment, Energy Efficiency
You guys are definitely pushing the envelope and defying conventions. I read about your car in Wired magazine on the airplane recently and am intrigued by your work. Despite our global conflicts and high oil prices, it’s an exciting time to be in the energy business to meet these challenges with innovation, as you are doing.
I think recharge time is a bigger challenge than you may wish to admit, however, even assuming the rosiest march of progress in the future. You mention cell phones as an example. A big difference is that infrastructure already exists to support recharging these units conveniently. At home. In the office. In the board room. And for all intents and purposes entirely free. There are no electrical outlets in parking lots, however. If they made them, it likely wouldn’t be free. If they were, the natural scavenging nature of humans would lead to strangers camping out where they don’t belong to get free juice, and so restrictions quickly placed on access to the outlets. The infrastrucuture would inevitably need to support electrical outlet access ubiquitously (with the way to recover the cost of power generation and distribution) and would require the contribution and coordination of government, businesses, and citizens.
Another challenge: It takes approximately 2 minutes to fill a gas tank up at the station, while it takes approximately 3-4 hours to recharge the car batteries. Let’s assume recharge time technology improves 10% a year indefinitely from a baseline of 3.5 hours. We wouldn’t be to 2 minutes until 2050. Even if we were willing to wait, ‘gas’ stations wouldn’t, given the queues associated with a longer refueling service. While this is a terrific idea for a large segment of drivers (commuters) it would still be necessary to own a second gasoline powered car, which one person in the family will drive.
Again, I applaud your work, but there is another technological quantum leap needed to close the gap. If anyone can do it someday, I’m sure you guys, with the support of your investors, can!
Yours,
Tim (electric power insider and upcoming Tesla Motors aficionado)
Carbon nanotube ultracapcitors, europositron’s aluminum battery (assuming it’s not a scam), and mit’s virus battery all seem like promising possibilities.
Will Tesla Motors provide new battery technology for roadster owners once the original battery wears out? 100,000 is a significant timespan for most people, and nanotechnology is poised to revolutionize energy storage devices in a few years, it seems.
Wikipedia states that the shelf-life of lithium ion batteries decreases by 20% per year. What is the life-span of your batteries and how do you plan on handling the obstacle of constantly decreasing range and the cost to keep that range up? What is the total cost of batteries in the roadster? How is the cost of batteries going to affect less expensive cars that don’t have as much of a markup going towards maintenance?
I saw no mention of an Air Conditioning system. I hope there is some type of system as it gets very hot in So Cal at times, even with a convertible. Does your car have AC?
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Editor’s Surprise: It is listed on the technical specs page.
Thanks for the blog update, Martin - I can see that you are reading the blog (rants, raves and all) and are being responsive!
Yes, 500 mile range and “charge while you sleep” infrastructure will be a bright future.
I can see that the blog questions about batteries persist. I think the following is correct:
#1: Redundancy built into the battery back so ~20% of the cells can fail with almost no impact.
#2: Pack lifespan of _at least_ 5 years, and _at least_ 100,000 miles.
(That is as long as the warantee of most any car you can buy today.)
#3: Tesla is doing everything they can to preserve the batteries as long as possible.
They are in a sealed chamber being kept at just the right temperature and charged/discharged as best as possible.
If you can afford $100K for the car, I suspect you can probably afford the ~$15K it would take to replace the battery back in 5+ years if it started to wear out.
I am having 3kW of solar panels put on my house next month too… I can’t quite afford the Tesla Roadster now, but I will be saving and hoping to get one if the price comes down a bit.
I did some reading on the EEStor ultracapacitor system. (Most of the credible info I found was at www.businessweek.com/the_thread/dealflow/archives/2005/09/kleiner_perkins_1.html). What I found asserts that one unit stores and delivers 52kWh and weighs 400 lbs. From what I can see at this website, your battery pack provides around 44kWh and weighs nearly 1000 lbs. So, two EEStore units might weigh around 200 lbs. less than your pack, while providing around 16 more kWh. If your pack powers the Roadster for 250 miles, I estimated that a dual EEStor unit would yield better than 580 miles, which clears your 500-mile “long drive” hurdle with room to spare. The BusinessWeek article suggests that two EEStor units would cost $6400 initially, dropping perhaps to something like $4200 once high-volume proudction were underway. Even if those numbers indicate a more costly unit than your existing pack, the claim is that the ultracaps will last for the life of the thing using them and can be recharged thousands of times. (OK, I’ve read “millions,” but I am being conservative.) My point is that the total cost of ownership goes down by thousands of dollars if you never have to replace the powerpack, meaning that you don’t have to own the car for as many years before the total cost begins to be lower than that of a Camry-class gasoline engine sedan.
Apparently, Feel Good Cars, in Canada, now has a deal going with EEStor. Does that mean that Tesla is locked out of this option? EEStor is backed by savvy VCs who don’t like to lose, and who have some basis for believing that the technology is real and can be brought profitably to market. Do you have any basis for thinking that they — or other questers after the ultracap holy grail — have the goods? In your essay, you speak as if you intend to ride the Li-Ion performance and cost curves all the way down, but — especially if an ultracap power-pack has the potential of charging more quickly than Li-Ion batteries — would you consider switching technology horses sooner, rather than later?
By the way, I was one of the 4.1M “lucky ones” who got a potentially flammable Dell laptop battery. Too bad my luck never kicks in like that when buying lottery tickets! I would certainly invest in a Tesla Roadster, if I won!
The simplest solution for an occasional long distance trip is to own a smaller “daily driver” car and rent a larger vehicle when needed. While this doesn’t work for 100% it would likely handle 80% of drivers’ needs. I own a subcompact but have rented SUVs for ski trips in winter.
Okay, since we all agree that an electric vehicle with Lithium-Ion technology is vastly superior and commerically viable compared with the alternatives such as hydrogen fuel cell, E85, etc., do you foresee other auto manufactures to begin following Tesla Motor’s design direction of using electric motor powered by Lithium Ion battereies?
If so, how would this impact your future growth and competitive strategy? For example, Honda Motor Co could easy incorporate Lithium Ion battreies on their EV Plus instead of NiMH and start mess marketing it. I would be shocked if no major auto manufactures, especailly the Janpanese and the Eurpoeans where small, fuel efficient cars make up bulk of their sales, have something like this in the works.
Interesting article about the effects of ethanol on commodity food prices… not a pretty picutre.
money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/08/21/8383659/index.htm
You can also find good info. about EEStor battery by doing this google search:” EEStor capacitor treehugger”. Takes you to ‘Treehugger” online magazine article on this battery.
Regarding EEstor capacitor- “Treehugger” website has link to March Toronto Star article where they say “Feel Good Cars” of Canada has exclusive rights to use the capacitor in cars up to about the weight of a Honda Civic- so guess Tesla could get the technology if the curent (or a future) Tesla weighs more than a Civic. If it really works this capacitor/battery seems like the next best thing to di-lithium crystals!
Two items to consider:
1) multiple cars in the same garage and not a big enough electric-hose to feed them both. Wireless recharge negotation? Something to consider for model II…. Of *course* I want the family car plus the roadster
2) If a follow-on SUV-style (or other larger, family-oriented) vehicle is to get twice the mileage, we may well be talking four times the energy storage requirements. Which means either we’re going to need upgraded electric feeds, or a 100%-full recharge is going to take 14 hours. Another possibility is home-solar plus local storage (bulk charging?). That implies a much cheaper storage solution, something that sits outside of the car, and something that lasts a REALLY long time…. That’s a longer-term problem, but, something to consider.
BoL,
-Dave
From
www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05/feel_good_cars_.html :
“” Feel Good Cars has worldwide exclusive rights to purchase EEStor’s new Energy Storage Unit—a high-power-density ceramic ultracapacitor—for the small vehicle market and golf carts (up to 100 HP and 1,200 kg curb weight). “”
So, apparently Tesla (being more than 100hp and slightly more than 1200kg) should be able to buy from EEStor if they want.
I have a feeling that their engineering department already has their hands full just getting everything worked out with the Li-Ions, so they may not change battery technology for a while.
Tesla will have a very rough time competing with a Honda or Toyota if they got back into the EV business. I think Tesla is counting on those guys sticking with Hybrids for a while while Tesla covers the smaller pure-EV niche that the big companies have abandoned.
Your white papers do a great job of pinpointing the advantages of the Tesla Roadster in comparison with the other fuels out there. The Roadster is a performance designed sports car and amply demonstrates the electric motor’s performance advantage over IC engines though perhaps doesn’t do the electric car justice in terms of it’s energy efficiency. I’m excited to see what engineering marvels are in the works for the second and third generation of Tesla cars. The path Tesla has suggested for solving the problem of recharging is spot on, but a car designed from the ground up with an emphasis on efficiency would hopefully be capable of putting that distance between charges somewhere in the range of 1000 miles. That’s 20 hours of driving! Enough to literally put the critics to rest.
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This was already mentioned above and it is a point often made but rarely given serious attention. The fact that when electric car owners Joe and Jane commuter want to take that family road trip they can easily rent a car for much less than it would cost them to buy and maintain a second gas powered car. Eliminating the problem of range relieves much of the difficulty in designing a car which is cost efficient. Understanably, the larger the capacity of the battery pack the greater the range of the car but a denser, larger, or technologically advanced battery is also going to be much more expensive. The common thought that the electric car will become cheaper with economies of scale will only ring true if companies stay with a proven technology. With the option to rent a car for those long trips, buying an inexpensive high efficiency EV with just enough capacity in it’s just-good-enough battery pack will be good enough for just about everyone.
My dream scenario. An economical commuter EV for daily use/errands and then a rockin’ EV with the latest in battery technololgy available to rent for the occasional road trip out of town. If any company out there could do them both you guys are definitely on the right path.
James Merritt in above post came across something with that EEstor battery co.-I’ve been doing google searches ever since.This could be something else (and how!), if it works like they say. Guess Tesla people are on top of this.
To me the best way to address the time to re-charge problem would be some kind of industry wide standard for a battery, and its location on the vehicle. A user of an electric car could then drive on to a forecourt and have their battery swapped with a fully charged one. Their old battery would then be charged and placed into another customers’ ev. This would of course lead to problems of batteries storing less and less charge over their lifetime and how you would compensate users for this. But if that were to be worked out then the current dino-fuel forecourts could provide this service.
While I applaud your efforts to make north america in particular less dependant upon foriegn oil, I must point out somthing that I have not yet heard any mention of, that is the simple matter of how much impact can a completely electric roadster have on the oil crisis?
Reaonsing that two thirds of our oil comsumption is based on transportation, what percentage of that two thirds is consumed by “high performance” sports cars offered at prices only the elite can afford? My guess is that it is nearly insignificant. Of the transportation consumption sector most is consumed by the trucking/heavy duty industry followed closely behind by the everyday commuter, one which unfortunately has been priced out of the TESLA market.
In regards to the battery life of the roadster (an approximation of 5 years) i have but one question, and that is what would be a close guess as to the replacement cost of these batteries should they no longer be useful? My guess is that this would be comparable to the current cost to rebuild a traditional gasoline motor at approx ($2000-$5000) while this may compensate for the lack of required maintenance throughout the vehicles life I doubt the practicality of a major service overhaul of this magnitude every five years. Even by the year 2012 when the first TESLAS will be in need of new batteries in which technology has improved dramatically this will be a major consideration for the buyer now.
Again i applaud your efforts towards greener auto’s and air however an electric car for the masses should be affordable to the masses. The rich among us have no complaints about the price of gas, and given the price premium for clean technology it does not at this point make financial sense for the rest of us.
I hope that James Anderson Merritt’s comment is responded to in a future blog post. It is a very interesting thought/question.
Congratulations on selling out the first 100 cars so fast! I hope it hastens the day you can offer a less expensive vehicle for the masses.
Hmmm, significantly better battery technology is going to be a disruptive development. And it looks like we are maybe 5 years away from that disruption. Consider: If Tesla Motors can deliver an economy car powered by batteries and/or ultracapacitors with a range of 500 miles and a dollars per mile efficiency better than 3 times that of the current gasoline powered cars…
Benchmark:
Honda Civic = $0.0709 per mile ($1,063.50 per annual 15,000 miles)
Tesla Electric = $0.02 per mile ($300.00 per annual 15,000 miles)
$763.50 saved in operating costs per year x 6 years of life = $4,581 saved over the life of the car. That is about 25% of the purchase price.
Remarkable.
Good Job Tesla, you’re showing that demand for electric cars isn’t ficticious. We do need and want electric cars. The battery obstacle isn’t so much an obstacle as it is beeing portayed. I for one don’t travel more than 50-60 miles during the course of a day. And if I want to go cross country, I’m going to fly because you have better believe I’m not going to sit in a car for that many hours. If I do needed to drive cross country, I’ll rent a car, or ride with my wife, or friend. Now for those who feel the “convenience of 2 minute gas fillups” can’t be overcome. I timed how long I had to wait today to fill my tank, and it took 10 minute to fill up after waiting in line, pumping, and getting my receipt from the automatic charge teller. Not so convenient! But had I recharged from my home, I wouldn’t have had to stop to fill up and I would have saved 10 minutes! Also, I could opportunity charge at the mall, grocery shopping, haircut, Home Depot and so on! That’s way more convenient than having to stop at a gas station. Again, electric cars are not for everybody, they only fulfill the requirements of 90% of the population!
i love your concept; i currently drive a Challenge Stradale and a Lexus 450H, and would love to plug my tesla into my solar house!!!! 250 miles gets me to work, to my son’s soccer practise and home, enough range for 5 days a week.
the issues i have:
the stradale has plenty of space for my son’s soccer gear when when go to practise. your car looks too small like an Elise which is too small too be useful. no luggage space=no sale
handling: one of my friends drove your proto and said it handled “like a litter box on wheels”. if you guys dont hire some cars guys to do performance balance: brakes/handling/power, you’ll lose the performance customer.
we’re all waiting for the Toyota Volta hybrid concept [0-60 in 4 sec.s and 34 mpg] which could tide us over
really looking forwarxdc to owning your car, but please make it useful in size and awesome in handling/braking as well
Question. What do you do if you accidentally ‘run out of gas’ without an electrical outlet in sight? Have the car towed to your house?
Tesla Motors: You have a wonderful car, and congratulations on your success in selling the first 100! Your web site is a delight.
I will buy an all-electric car, probably a Tesla Model 2.
I make my own electricity– I’ve had a 2.2 kWh photovoltaic on my roof for 3 years– and have not paid the power company, SCE, anything during that time. I will put another 6 panels on my roof, have a 3.3 kWh system, and have free fuel for my car.
I saw “Who Killed the Electric Car?” last week, and it fired me up. I’ve read everything on the Tesla web site, and read the Wikipedia article on Battery Electric Vehicles at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_vehicle . I’ve ordered 2 books on electric cars.
We need all-electric cars, for the reasons so well-stated here and elsewhere.
But here is my problem: While I am willing to believe that we no longer have the GM EV-1, for all the reasons given in Paine’s film, I still have this problem. It is a market issue: Paine’s film on the electric car gives us a catalog of reasons why that market was squashed. But Paine’s film has the point of view that the U.S.A. is the only market on the planet. In fact, other countries have made electric cars, and, the U.S. is not the only market where people have had the chance to buy electric cars.
Why haven’t electric cars caught on in other countries?
Why haven’t electric cars made by other countries caught on here?
The reasons given for why the EV-1 was killed in the U.S. may be true, but, how can I understand why Honda Motor Company only sold 300 Honda EVs? Did Exxon and Chevron somehow keep the Japanese from buying Hondas? Did Big Oil convince Japanese auto makers not to make any more than 300? (Japan has no oil production– surely the Japanese have no interest in preserving the oil companies.) Did Honda run TV ads that were as grim as those run by GM for their EV? And why didn’t Americans buy the Honda EV Plus? There were no leasing issues with it. $53,000 purchased it outright. Yet only 300 were sold. See (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_EV_Plus) The Massachusetts Div of Energy Resources reports favorably on their test of the Honda EV Plus at www.mass.gov/doer/programs/ev/h.htm .
This is not the right place to do a film critique, and my point for the Tesla market is this: The proposed Model 2 seems to be a product-improved Honda EV Plus. Same price; same “family sedan” concept. The Tesla would have Lithium ion batteries, not NiMH, would have a longer range, would likely be faster, and gasoline is now $3.25 instead of $1.80 or whatever it was in 1999. But beyond those marginal improvements, why is the market different today than there was 10 years ago for the Honda EV Plus?
Somebody please convince me that Big Oil and GM and CARB killed the Honda EV Plus, or, on the other hand, tell me why a Tesla Model 2 family sedan for around $53,000 will sell more than 300. Or why Honda can’t make that same car now. Or why they aren’t making it again already.
for longer trips, could we not have a battery trailer, something to tow behind the vehicle to draw on throughout a long trip?
Come continue the conversation at www.teslamotorsclub.com. We have created an online community to give you the opportunity to converse with ohter people who are excited about the roadster and other future tesla vehicles.
Electric Recharge Questions—Non Issues Really
In the long transistion of years for all vehicles to move to all electric, traditional Service Stations are perfect current and evolutionary supports for EV’s. As well as office parking lots/supermarkets/malls/hotels and farm houses!
Simple electric “pumpers” can be installed of much smaller size than gas pumps. And NO the local hobos won’t get electricity for “free”. The electric “pumpers” function with good old credit cards just like the gas ones, charging and “charging” your credit card for electricity your EV’s use.
For the absent minded—who just can’t remember to charge their car at home—-service stations can give you that quick 15 minute boost to get you home from work—supossing you also forget to charge the car at work.
People—electical power is everywhere in the good ol USofA. And battery technology/motor power/eff is on a constant rise and improvment. Let’s quit all the Nervous Nelly crying about recharging a Tesla.
IF Tesla performs to the EXISTING specs, let alone the improvements that will happen just in 1 years time, with a reliable sport car that makes it to 100000 miles then everyone will be similing!
MY Consern is that Telsa Motors needs to get out and put on demo Shows in large Metropolitan Areas that meet the demographic of high income/new infrastructure citys such as the Phoenix/Scottsdale metroplex. HINT HINT!! Tesla could sell 100 roadsters in this enviromnent in a week.
As requested by many from the Tesla Motors blog community, the wallpaper is here!
I couldn’t find the price? How much does a tesla cost the customer?
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Editor’s Help: More information can be found on the reservations page.
Vern Padgett,
I think there is are three main reasons why now is a better time than 1999 for selling a good electric car. Whether true or not many people believe that gas prices are only going up and that they could rise a lot faster in the future than what we’ve seen so far. Secondly I think global warming is a real issue that many people are deeply concerned about. Lastly you have the national security issue as well which wasn’t really on the radar back then. These are standard answers but I think there is some truth to them. Why aren’t the major companies getting on board? I think they will, its just that they are slower to adapt and so they want gradual change, ie hybrids.
For all the questions about long trips (repeated I don’t know how many times), the answer (until a better electrical infrastructure is in place) is simply is to use your second car.
I have few questions , and it would be of great help if these questions are answered. I was wondering if TESLA is going to release any different models in the next 2 years( because i love SUV) . How many years can i use the batteries before disposing them ?
There are other questions which i will be posting later. I hope your responses will help me
Thank you
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Editor’s Answer: Try following these links:
The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan
“Without giving away too much, I can say that the second model will be a sporty four door family car at roughly half the $89k price point of the Tesla Roadster and the third model will be even more affordable.”
The FAQ
How long do the batteries last?
Li-Ion batteries are good for 500 charge/discharge cycles. With 250 miles of range this works out to 125,000 miles, but our estimate is a conservative 100,000 miles. However we believe that we will get better life from our batteries due to temperature control of the batteries and intelligent charge/discharge cycling.
I believe the reason that Tesla will succeed where Honda EV Plus and others alike have failed is target marketing.
Current or future gas price and battery technology aside, a very few would pay $60,000 for a “Honda Civic-like” car to ease their concerns for the environment. And that’s in the 90’s price. In addition, it doesn’t make any economic sense to pay over $45,000 premium over an equivalent gas-powered car because there’s no way to get that kind of money back thru fuel and maintenance savings no better how many decades you drive the car. I would rather buy an Acura NSX.
Tesla has chosen the perfect platform (Lotus Elise, arguably one of the best sports cars in ANY price range) as their 1st model. Not only the platform costs a mere $45K retail (for the whole Elise), the Tesla Roadster competes quite competently against Ferrari, Porche, Aston Martin, etc. in terms of ecstatic and performance. With this target market, obviously economic factors are not so much of a concern rather how “cool” they would look driving it because it’s unique.
For their Model #2 with the projected price range of $45k to $50k, the target customers would be more price-conscious. They would expect to get back their $10k to $15k premium over the gas-powered equivalent thru fuel and maintenance savings within 5 to 6 years. With this said, I personally would like to see Tesla to build their Model #2 from Lexus IS, Acura TL platform or something similar and Model #3 from Honda Civic, Accord, Toyota Camry or alike.
This would definitely make both economic AND environmental sense for the masses.
Thanks a lot for your quick response . These answers are lot helpful. Would there be any demo model or diplay of this car in these following states of Mississippi, Texas, Tennesse, Georgia or Florida? If so when ? Thank you
Deja vu…This is Microsoft and IBM all over again. You guys are poised to change the transportation industry. I’m poor but I’ll be cheering you on while I drive my gas guzzling fossil. Do you think you could extend range by embedding solar cells in a composite body so that you’re getting a constant trickle charge on sunny days? For trips I think a 500 mile range is not enough. You’ve got to shoot for somewhere between 750 and 1000 miles.
How much wattage does this car use, and how many hp?
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Editor’s Surprise: Take a look at the performance spec page.
Um, Eestor technology is useless to Tesla, because Feel Good Cars has exclusive rights for use of the technology in all vehicles which weigh under 1200kg without batteries. The worst part is that “feel good” makes crappy low-speed (punishment) cars. Max of 25 mph, and only 35 mile range on the current model. Disappointing.
I had been waiting for the Signature Edition to be sold out and was thrilled that t in less than a month 100 people who belive in the company and the car spoke with thier wallets and purses to the tune of 100K. I’m sure most never even drove the car. Amazing.
I t was dissapointing though, to find the next batch of 100 (two-point-OH?) are selling for the same 100K price.(see the reservations page) What happened to the much talked about 85K or the 89K that Elon mentioned in his Secret plan “…$89k price point of the Tesla Roadster…”.
There are those of us that could and will afford this car at that lower price by selling a lot of possesions and doing without some niceities -anything in order to buy this dream machine.
Personally, if I had a 100K I would have bought in on the first group of 100 for the status, earlier arrival, etc. This move is a suprise from the company. That 15K makes all the difference to a lot of people who want to do the right thing and are on the financial edge
What happened?
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Editor’s Answer: This Tesla Roadster is fully loaded.
Marcus, thanks for your analysis. You wrote (abstract): “3 reasons why now is a better time than 1999 … gas prices are up … global warming … national security … ”
You know I couldn’t agree with you more. You and I care about these 3 issues. Marcus, you and I would chose a car based on these factors.
But what about the 99+% of the rest of the car-buying public? They don’t give a flying halibut about these issues. They only look at the price of the car.
How to sell the car to them? Please help me understand how Tesla will succeed, where Honda EV Plus and Toyota RAV4 failed, with these 99+% of the public .
Vern
Tesla could get EEstor if they made roadster 2650 pounds instead of 2500, which is 1202 kilograms-unless they have to deduct battery weight from that. But they could still make a heavier “super” Tesla, more like a corvette maybe- or the Ford GT, which weighs 3350 pounds .Or else they could make “Fell Good Cars” an offer they couldn’t refuse, as in :”Are you Feeling Lucky ?, well ARE you-Feel Good!?” . Or perhaps a merger would be in order, or leveraged buyout/hostile takeover cat fight. Then again-maybe EEstor’s idea is not as good as postulated now!?
The San Jose Mercury-News provides a positive assessment after a test drive of several hours from Monterey to Big Sur and back (pre-Concourse tour): www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/15299648.htm
I was encouraged that Matt Nauman felt the authentic sportscar vibe when sitting behind the wheel. An earlier blog comment here, likening the Tesla to a “litter box on wheels” had given me pause. Nobody said that the Tesla had to be the world’s best sportscar, only that it be a credible, superior sportscar; Nauman’s comments lead me to believe that the Roadster belongs in that league.
Ironically, I will be in Monterey during the time of the Concourse, but I have other longstanding plans that prevent me from checking out the Tesla. I hope the Roadster comes to Santa Cruz someday. To me, it really makes sense for Tesla to work out deals with one or more rental companies. I heard that GM EV-1s were rentable in Los Angeles, and that thne rental EV-1s were fairly popular. I want to be able to rent a Tesla Roadster in Santa Cruz or San Jose!
Stefan said, “Um, Eestor technology is useless to Tesla, because Feel Good Cars has exclusive rights for use of the technology in all vehicles which weigh under 1200kg without batteries.”
At www2.cdn-news.com/scripts/ccn-release.pl?/current/0412015n.html I found the following, from a Feel Good Cars press release:
“In September of 2005 FGC entered into an agreement with EEStor to
acquire worldwide exclusive right to purchase ESU’s for the small
vehicle market and golf carts (up to 100 HP and 1200 kgs curb weight).”
I didn’t see anything about the weight having to be “without batteries,” although I agree that other reports did make that claim in so many words. If batteries are included in the weight computation, then the Roadster is right on the line (and can perhaps be equipped so as to tip the scales in the proper direction). It far surpasses the horsepower limit. Perhaps exceeding either parameter frees a vehicle from the contractual restrictions, as the arrangement seems clearly intended to apply to golf-carts and other low-speed electric vehicles only. One can only hope.
After reading as much information about the EEStor supercapacitors, as is currently available, it certainly seems as though this will be just what Tesla needs to quickly bring model II to market with longer mile range, quicker recharge capable, and lower price! Since FGC only has exclusive rights for vehicles having less than 100 hp and low speed, I for one, would love to see Tesla join up with EEStor. Please put me down on the list for buyers of model II.
“Who killed the Electric Car?” sequel ” Who killed Detroit?”– A shot of Detroits big three board rooms with wealthy board members dressed in rags, complaining about Tesla’s electric cars. This could easily be a “keystone cops” type comedy. I really hope that the Tesla people stay focused on building cars. By using thier funds wisely they could start accumulating the needed resources to start producing the cars in California. Where else in the world would you EXPECT to find cutting edge tech? I, like so many others, will be antiscipating the second generation of car which will, hopefully be affordable to mainstream Americans. We all have familes to haul around, work to get to and weekend playtime to make it all worthwhile. Sure we care about national security, the planets air, water and such but how much can one family do? An electric car for— ‘ me too ! ‘ — would allow us all to vote how we feel in a VERY tangible way—- with our pocketbooks. Its just that our pocketbooks don’t contain 100 grand. Or 89 grand, half that is getting close……. Just stay focused.
I searched the BBC’s “Top Gear” website for info on the “Roadster” and came up with nothing.
So, I sent them yours! I don’t know if it will be of any use but it is a very popular show even here in Canada. As the Roadster is assembled in the UK I am asuming it wouldn’t be too difficult for their reviewers to check it out?
Why not make a hybrid model as well. Maybe a smaller generator engine about 5 to 10 hp just to juice up the batteries so you can go the distance. You don’t have to make the combustion engine part of the drive train. If you make an SUV with some space, I’LL BUY IT AND BRING A GENERATOR IN THE BACK!!!. Maybe a diesel generator with vegetable oil or biodiesel so we can really go independent. There are so many ways you can extend the range and so many choices of body style.
Also, thank you for making a beautiful looking electric car. That was not even conceivable in the past. Now, go and make other style and give us some choices.
“….If you build it, they will come….”
Tesla Motors ™ make the following statements in their publicity sheet.
* Battery Life; Useful battery life in excess of 100,000 miles
* Full Charge; As short as 3.5 hours
* 250 Miles Between Charges
My Questions are:
Battery Life:
How did TM test battery life to 100,000 miles?
Did TM test batteries on board a Tesla Roadster driven on-road to 100,000 mile?
How many battery packs did TM test to 100,000 miles?
Over the 100,000 mile test, what % was driven in high ambient temps (Phoenix July-Aug.)?
% driven in cold ambient temps.(Chicago Jan-Feb.)?
% driven on rough road surface (potholes)?
Over the 100,000 mile test,
what % was driven @ freeway speeds?
What % driven @ city-town speeds?
What % driven @ stop-n-go speeds?
Full Charge:
During the 100,000 mile test, where did TM charge the battery?
What was the total number of charges?
What % were 100% full charges ?
What % were partial charges?
Based on TM’s 250 mile range between charges and 3.5 hours to full charge
It would require 400 full charges and 1,400 hours to complete the 100,000 mile driving test?
Not a very attractive proposition. TM suggests you charge over night, if that’s what TM did in their 100,000 mile test then it the test lasted 400 nights, becasue of charge needs.
250 miles between charges
Did TM use EPA test proceedure which is 30 years old and out of date?
If not, what test criteria did TM use to arrive at 250 miles between charges?
Lastly, after TM completed 100,000 mile road test did TM tear down the battery pack?
Was a chemical and mechanical analysis did TM performed on the battery.?
What did TM find and what did TM learn for the analysis?
How many battery packs did TM road test to 100,000 miles?
So far, all I read from TMs publicity, is they tested the battery pack in controlled laboratory tests.
But we all know you cannot compare controlled laboratory tests to real world road tests which includes the driver and the driver’s driving habits etc. ..Thank you ……..Galactic Cannibal
Tesla should check out www.steorn.net/frontpage/default.aspx?p=1
—————————————————————————————
From www.steorn.net/en/news.aspx?p=2&id=22
Steorn develops free energy technology and issues challenge to the global scientific community
London, 18th August 2006: Steorn, an Irish technology development company, has today issued a challenge to the global scientific community to test Steorn’s free energy technology and publish the findings.
Steorn’s technology is based on the interaction of magnetic fields and allows the production of clean, free and constant energy. The technology can be applied to virtually all devices requiring energy, from cellular phones to cars.
Steorn has placed an advertisement in The Economist this week to attract the attention of the world’s leading scientists working in the field of experimental physics. From all the scientists who accept Steorn’s challenge, twelve will be invited to take part in a rigorous testing exercise to prove that Steorn’s technology creates free energy. The results will be published worldwide.
Sean McCarthy, CEO of Steorn, commented: “During the years of its development, our technology has been validated by various independent scientists and engineers. We are now seeking twelve of the most qualified and most cynical from the world’s scientific community to form an independent jury, test the technology in independent laboratories and publish their findings.
“We are under no illusions that there will be a lot of cynicism out there about our proposition, as it currently challenges one of the basic principles of physics. However, the implications of our technology go far beyond scientific curiosity: addressing many urgent global needs including security of energy supply and zero emission energy production. In order for these benefits to be achieved, we need the public validation and endorsement of the scientific community”.
“We’re playing our part in making that happen by throwing down the gauntlet with today’s announcement – now it’s over to the scientists to ensure that the real potential and benefits of our technology can be realised.”
Following the validation process, Steorn intends to license its technology to organisations within the energy sector. It will allow use of its technology royalty-free for certain purposes including water and rural electrification projects in third world countries, details to be announced later.
I agree that once the range (or rather, highway driving time) goes above what people are likely drive in a day, then further increases in capacity will not make much difference and people will usually recharge overnight instead. However, this would have to be on typical real-world usage (eg with air-con on).
I wonder how much Telsa will be able to improve battery capacity using similar cells, but better packaging? I suspect they might be pushing it pretty close to the limit already though. However, one advantage of an electric powered car is that the battery pack can be upgraded to any type of technology so long as it meets the minimum requirements. There is certainly a lot of research going on into next-gen battery technology, whether simply much faster re-charging time for l-ion, or completely new technology. If the power pack became an open standard, then battery technology companies could design for it and there could be a diverse market for 3rd-party batteries.
So long as the battery cost stays a significant part of the overall cost, then buyers could possibly even specify a smaller battery pack at lower price. And as EV cars become cheaper, I think we’d see some more adventerious souls replace their boot by an extra battery pack, for example.
However… I do see one problem with the battery recharging issue - as others have pointed out, you can’t just carry a car into a house / place of work and plug it into a spare socket. Also, if you don’t have a garage at home, then you’d have to have a lead dangling out from your house - which would be okay if re-charge times are quick, but risky otherwise. If re-charge times are quick, then using a service station will be very practical - though well away from the pumps I presume!
As an aside… it will be interesting to see what’s changed and what hasn’t for Tesla’s “sedan” car. Unlike a gasoline engine, electrical motors get more efficient as they get larger, which makes it much easier to share technology between different types of cars. I’d imagine the lowest cost option for Tesla would be to use exactly the same battery pack, motor, drive-train etc for the sedan as for the Roadster. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the design choices in the Roadster were specifically done so that the same parts could be re-used for the sedan. Sharing parts reduces R&D and production costs. Assuming this is the case, then the sedan would be quite sporty too - if the sedan is 30% heavier, maybe 0-60 time will be “only” 5.5 seconds. I hope it looks sporty!
I also imagine we’ll see a “second generation” Roadster at some point - with 2nd-gen battery pack, 2nd-gen motor, 2nd-gen drive-train. I wonder how easy it’d be to improve torque by 50%…
I hope the initial Roadster has good handling. With Lotus involved, I think expectations will be high! Would be nice to see it fly around a track.
As well as 0-60 time, I wonder what overtaking speed/acceleration is like. Some people care about overtaking speed more than 0-60. I imagine the Roadster could be quite good here too.
Dear Galactic Cannibal,
The piece of information that is missing from your understanding is something called Accelerated-Life Testing. It is done all the time, because it saves time when pursuing facts.
Put simply: Using careful measurement, applied physical sciences and mathematics, it is entirely possible to, say, extrapolate from the clutch wear on a 1500 hp Mickey Thompson dragster - to the lifespan that your grandma can expect from the clutch on her Pinto.
This does not involve dancing around a fire on the full Moon. BTW It involves highly-trained engineers of several disciplines working with ovens and freezers and vibration platforms and beyond-design-specification loads and computer-controlled cycling between extremes over and over and over according to an exhaustively detailed plan… making copious records of everything as you go… until something breaks.
This is followed by a complex process known in the trade as Failure Analysis.
Failure analysis seeks extremely detailed and repeatable truth to questions such as: What broke? Why did it break? How long did it take to break? How could it be made more (or possibly less) resistant to breaking. It also includes: What didn’t break? Why? Is it too strong (too much/wrong material - too heavy etc.) Does it exceed the Mean Time Between Failure of the other parts of the assembly? Is it wasteful or less efficient to make it this way? etc.
This research and development engineering process has a long and storied history. For example: A dozen Americans walked on the surface of the Moon with full confidence in equipment that had never been tested in the environment of space, thanks to engineers using accelerated-life testing and failure analysis in the quest for indisputable truths.
Bob Rolls
Silver Spring, Maryland
Hi - don’t know if you want to answer this in the comments section, or create a new post, but:
Can you explain why Tesla chose the particular battery type it did?
For example, I would presume you ruled A123 nano-lithium ion batteries (at least for the moment) due to the higher cost, in spite of the lower weight, longer life cycle, and greater tolerance for heat, cold and humidity. True? In general can you go through the other storage methods you considered, and their advantages and disadvantages vs. the final choice you made?
Thanks
Gar
We understand recharge time is one problem for an EV. What about some type of alternator based drive system and dual batteries…. using one set of batteries to drive the vehicle while the other set is being recharged by the wheels spinning and alternators recharging the none active battery. This way when one battery becomes low you could switch it over to the other one.
These days you find dual gas tanks on trucks why not on an ev…. granted that would add more weight, but for a larger model car, it may only make a limited difference.
Wow.. ‘bleeding edge’ - was my exact thought when I first heard about this car. I know there’ve been prior attempts at EVs, with varying success but this is the best I’ve seen. I hope it sells well.
You might have a problem though… I’d be on the lookout for Dick Chenney - I heard he’s huntin’ wabits with buckshot… you definitely want to stay out of his way!
Gar — the A123 battery is not lower weight. There is less energy per unit weight in those batteries than in the typical 18650. More power, yes, but less energy. Judging by the price on their RC packs, they are roughly 10x the cost, too. Unless you want a car that can drag race, you probably don’t really need the extra power. Extra life is, of course, to be seen.
To Bob’s comment — according to the lithium guys I’ve heard from, accelerated life testing appears to be quite difficult. While heat does affect cyclelife, there is a calendar component…. Hmm. EVWorld did an interview with Menachem Anderman here: www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=1071
Or, to quote:
“But, and that’s a very big but, lithium life is very sensitive to the average voltage the battery is kept and to the maximum voltage the battery is charged and, unfortunately, the degradation at high voltage is calendar-based rather than cycling-based. So, it’s very difficult to accelerate the data… The main component that drives the degradation is just time and voltage and temperature.”
Hope that doesn’t muddy things too much.
-Dave
Some people have suggested putting generators on the car to charge the batteries while the car is moving (not braking). That can’t work because the generators cause drag (it takes energy to spin a generator, it’s not magic). Also some % of the energy is lost as heat (no generator or electric motor can be >=100% efficient, despite what the “free energy” people here would try to tell you). You’d actually lower the car’s range by trying to generate electricity while it’s moving. Using the electric motor as a generator while braking is fine since the drag slows the car down. But you can’t brake forever.
Ford announced today that it would halt production at 10 assembly plants. Pickups and SUVs are a bloated inventory, losing market share to high mileage cars. GM is in a similar position. Despite their perfect ability to do so, they have thus far failed to make any small model hybrid. And they destroyed their electric EV1’s, despite people’s willingess to not only pay for them, but pay good money. If they had some grander plan to kill the electric vehicle with the goal of becoming dominant in the marketplace, they sure haven’t done a very good job.
Despite the big company’s screwing it up, it’s also hard to see how Tesla will survive after burning the cash from the future initial IPO (and paying back the big Google/Paypal/Ebay investors in spades). I think they have a chance though if oil prices continue rising, and a quantum leap is made in battery technology. I’ll be rooting for them every step of the way.
>the A123 battery is not lower weight. There is less energy per unit weight in those batteries than in the typical 18650.
OK. my mistake. then certaintly not work the 10X cost in this context.
You so knocked off the Lotus Elan…
Who designed this car? I see that this chassis design is a copy of the lotus. If you disagree then your lying.
I’m 6′3″ so I know that I would not if into your knockoff chassis design, since I tried to squeeze into the Lotus, and [offensive remark deleted].
Also, you should mention that your total battery weight is 900 pounds along with your 75 pound electric motor in your marketing information. Becuase your batteries are part of the dry wieght - right?
Cheers,
Yours truely,
Mr. Composites expert…
—-
Editor’s Polite Answer: Mr. Composites expert, perhaps you should look at the FAQ and the technical spec.
What is your relationship with Lotus?
Lotus Cars is assembling the Tesla Roadster under contract to Tesla Motors. Tesla Motors has also hired Lotus Engineering for certain design and engineering tasks. The Tesla Roadster style was developed in Lotus Engineering’s design studio - Lotus Engineering won a design contest where several design firms submitted proposals. Lotus Engineering supplied the initial chassis which was significantly modified by Tesla Motors engineers.
Why did you choose Lotus as a manufacturing partner?
Lotus is the acknowledged leader worldwide for efficient assembly of sports cars at modest volumes.
Curb Weight Around 2500 pounds (subject to complete safety and durability testing)
Dear Mr. Eberhard,
How about an honest portrayal of the energy consumption and emissions from this car? The statistics you currently use, in the white paper and in interviews by your employees, put your credibility and integrity at risk.
In the white paper, you choose the most efficient power plant available, even though these are very rare and in fact only a handful exist. By using your same sources, I am able to find that the Tesla is slightly less efficient than a Prius, on average, in the United States. That is in terms of total energy use and total greenhouse gas emissions. In a recent interview, Mike Harrigan mentioned an 18% efficiency for a gasoline car and compared it to a 45% efficiency of “the worst coal plants.” The average for American cars is evidently higher than that, and the efficiency of coal plants is nowhere near 45%. Check your own sources.
I am in fact a fan of the car and I hope you succeed. I’ve considered purchasing one. But I will be hesitant to support a company that knowingly leads people astray in an important public debate.
—-
Editor’s Answer: From page four of the same white paper:
See discussion of this topic in the above blog as well.
Don’t expect perfect fidelity when a reporter quotes someone in an article
Regarding Mr. C’s comment above about not fitting into Lotus. I (who you may call Mr. t, as opposed to Mr. T) am + 6′-4″ tall and sat in a Lotus Elise at the L.A. auto show once. It was o.k.-definitely o.k. , as opposed to a Miata-whiich is terrible, and the Mercedes small sportscar - forget what it’s called. That mercedes was impossible for someone my height-how could Mercedes do that? Maybe the newer model has the required legroom, but the older one was ridiculous. The only thing about the Lotus is the seat could have leaned back more for me, otherwise I have no idea what Mr. C is talkin’ about!
Wait a minute-did Mr. C above say ” ELAN”!?- you’re few few decades off, C-Man, it’s the Elise now- and you can fit in it. Getting in and out ain’t easy, but Tesla has fixed that in their design, as they detail, if you look thru this website further.
Have you thought about partneting with Toshiba? They invented their new LI-ION Particle Cell Battery. This can change to Full in just under 2 mintues. With thousands of these instead of the normal batteries, this would make the car perfect for the future. Has this been a tought or is the technology still too new?
Interesting little Q&A session here:
www.siliconbeat.com/entries/2006/08/18/the_tesla_roader_taken_for_a_spin_and_its_gutwrenching_vc_roadshow.html
And a mini-review (as it were):
www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/15305903.htm
The driving experience — other than the silence and the clean air — closely mirrors driving a regular sports car. Insert the key, shift into second and hit what used to be called the gas pedal. In the Tesla, acceleration is instantaneous with loads of mid-range torque.
Traffic, and slower old cars, prevented high-speed motoring, but when gaps emerged in the road, the Tesla filled them quickly.
Handling is precise, which is where Tesla’s connection with Lotus comes in. The British automaker sells the chassis and suspension bits from its Elise to make the Tesla. Lotus designers also created the exterior of the Tesla. And the car will be assembled at the Lotus factory in Norwich, England.
tesler car could be the thing to wipe the petrol car off the face of this earth. what is needed is a car that is cheap enough to produce and supply to the world.
an electric car that would cost no more than $20,000 would be somthing to crow about. if a car for that price cant be built, would you tell me why please.
best wishes with the tesler its a sure winner
dave
I was curious isn’t lithium-ion the batteries being recalled by Dell for fires. Thank yo ahead of time for your answer. Ed Matthews
—-
Editor’s Answer: Take a look at the safety page to find more information about the safety of the battery pack in the Tesla Roadster.
08/19/06 PM
Hi
I just got back from the Electric Car movie in VERO Beach Florida 38 miles from my house.
Yeah know…. If you didn’t know it was playing there, You wouldn’t know it was playing there.
The name of the movie and show times weren’t listed anywhere on the outside or inside of the theater.
No Billboards No nothing.
I ask the Cashier How come it’s not listed ?? It’s playing hear, Right?
The Cashier told me yes and they were told not to put it up on the billboard behind the cashier
So if anyone walking by looking and thinking GEE
That looks interesting — That Just wouldn’t happen.
There was just me and two other people in the whole theater
One guy a girl and me, and the girl told me she got in late for the first show and wanted to just see the beginning — She left about ten minutes in the show.
Sense I first found out about the movie I’ve done lots of research about Electric Car technology and the politics around it.
And the movie Highlighted a lot of what I have found out. Mostly centered on GMs EV-1
One thing I found out not in the movie — If you were in Europe lets say Germany and found a great Electric Car and tried to bring it back to the stats with MORE AND BETTER SAFETY features then we have hear you would be prohibited from bringing it in to Stats to drive on the highway.
Wow huh
Michael Clark
Permanet magnets in the rotor of DC motors instead of the stupid stator. The stator has coils. The rotors inturn are connected to the shaft a an electromagent motor, either directly or through belts. The DC motor/s charge extra battery packs which inturn are switched to the electromotor when the main battery pack runs down. This switching process can therorecticly run the apparatus forever. Oh, by the you don’t need to put this in the car if you’re worried about the extra weight of the batteries. REMEMBER THE PERMANET MAGNETS ARE ON THE ROTORS. And I think you need to get out of that stupid second law mind set. You’re wasting the rotational kenetic energy of the electromagnet motors shaft.
Re. above posts-Can’t anyone spell anymore? Just asking.
So, Al (or is it Tommey?), the first DC motor has some % loss, and the belts have a % loss, and the electromagnet motor has a % loss, and the battery packs have some % loss, but somehow if you hook that all together, you can make more power than you put in? Yeah, that 2nd law is so dumb. Clearly hundreds of years of experimentation and direct evidence is all wrong. Perpetual motion machines are possible, it’s just that somehow every one ever demonstrated didn’t work by some bad stroke of luck, or “they” stopped it somehow, whoever they are. Yeah.
Response to…. Spel R. Czech. Answer is NO 95% of Americans cannot spell English correctly. Its the American dream by Pres, Bush
Will Tesla Motors be providing any cars for the major car magazines to test?
Have you guys done any track days?
at $80K, I can’t afford that, perhaps a consumer model sometime in the near future?
I believe the battery charge-time problem will open up new business opportunities in the auto-servicing line.
If we can standardize on battery modules, there’d be Battery Pitstops where pre-charged battery modules are provided. You simply drive in, specify your module type code, and get a fully-charged module for your old one.
Essentially, you don’t own the batteries, you buy a fully-charged battery as a service.
It’s about time someone manufactured an great electric vehicle that is as stylish and efficient as the Tesla. Cool name too. I just what to say that I envision a battery standard so that you just pull up to your battery exchange station and get a charged battery. So future car designs need to make the battery “easily replacable” by station attendants, similar to gas station attendants.
The concept of the Tesla Roadster has always been in the back of my head, and I love where your company is taking the rest of the oil guzzling world kicking and screaming.
There is technology out there now where you can use a composite paint material to regenerate solar energy.. for eg
news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0114_050114_solarplastic.html
Can I option my Tesla up to a solar electricity absorbing paint job?
Think about it. Leave your car parked in the sun, come back and its regenerated enough energy for your trip home. Perfect.
Ok, I am no engineer but what would make sense to me is that people are always worried about running out of charge and where to charge the car and the time it takes to charge it.
Your car runs fully electric, but how about if you add a tiny small motor that runs on natural gas or oil or whatever cheap fuel and that can turn an alternator so whenever the battery charge is low, it starts on its own and recharge the battery. Wouldn’t that be more convenient so I can tell the middle east “now you can starve because I do not need your oil”.
Thanks
I think this car needs more exposure in the main stream media. Is it possible to get one of your hollywood investors to put this car in a “fast and furious” type movie? With all due respect to Chris Paine’s movie, I still have not been able to see it in the midwest because somebody is blocking the movie from these parts. Furthermore, I think the youth culture is the key. By getting the car this kind of exposure it will generate discussion in the masses. Pretty soon everyone will be asking ” where can I get a car like that?”
By the way, you know how I know the oil industry is scare of you guys right now? The gas prices are dropping, in summer. They are doing what they said they would do if threatened. They will lower the prices to keep America sedated for a while hoping that we will forget about the crap that they dish out. Once we get comfortable and forget that our oil money is funding their radical islamist ideolgy/terroist ties, then they will bring the price back up.
How about teaming up with stopglobalwarning.com. I am not a tree hugger by any standard but I know a lot of people who are concerned about it. I’m sure they would promote this car if they knew it could contribute to stopping global warming.
In 5 to 10 years from now your company won’t even exist. I can see the truth in the proverb. ‘Try correct someone stupid in you’ll be just like him’. So I am writing you no more. On the other side of armaggeddon when the meek/teachable inherit the earth. A responsive socitey of humanity will try all moral ideas with substance to them, not to gain money but for the benefit of all mankind. Open paten inventions.
Every one has ideas about electric cars some ideas are good and others aer with out foundation.
When the electric car moves to the front DC current will be used,
I have been involved in advanced magnetism for over fifty years, my own money my own place to research the project and no help.
it is about time some one to come off the ideas that does not work and look at magnetism in a new light .
I am just one man all alone that could use some help.
We can do this car thing.
Thanks Elmo.
I’m not necessarily talking about putting this concept in the car. You can just use it as a power supply. Therefore losses are negligible. When you have a house completly hooked up on solar you can have a surplus. Why not use that surrplus to charge an extra pack of batteries. All power sources have a limit to how many devices you can hook up to them before an overload situation occurs. So why not include a load that charges a battery, instead of wasting that energy to perform work on a load that does not put anything back into that source. I’ll admit that as of wright now I am only hoping that there is enough energy that can be used to between a load that does not give back and a load that does. In space flight a rocket propells the spacecraft into orbit. However once it is in orbit grvity does the rest for the most part. All I’m saying is that if you touch the electrical out put from the motor you’ll get shocked, but if in some way you tried to grab the rotor without getting shocked you hand would get chaffed from the rotional energy of the shaft. That means there are two energies at work or being generated. What I’m proposing is that electrical energy be used to power a load (oh yeah, I forget which one it is, but either a shunut wound or series wound DC motor when you increase the load on the motor does not have that great of an affect on the speed of the rotor) What I’m hoping is that a few extra pounds of torque on the rotor shaft of the main motor won’t cause so great a current draw, that part of the electrical output can be used to power the load. My main point is that why do all loads of to take and not give back. My other point is that due to the perpetual emmission, of the permanent magnets you’re not taking energy from the electrical output of the main motor to charge the extra battery packs but, taking electrical energy from the (connected through belts perhaps) charging motors to charge the extra battery packs. But back to ideas and concepts. Food growth is perpetual motion, planets’ orbiting the sun is, electrons orbiting atoms is. I’m not the expert on this, however go do a search on Thomas Bearden, or rexresearch.com. Also look up Robert Kruppa and the firestorm sparkplug.
The extra power that you din’t put in comes from the perpetual emission of the permanent magenets in the charging motors. Not from the main battery powering the main motor. You only put in that chemical energy. But as for those permanent magnets, you don’t provide that energy, and it is energy!!! That is a least on way in which a load can but pack energy into its power source but seperatly charged into extra batteries that can be switch to the main motor etc etc etc. I don’t feel like explaing it again. And to the guy that responds to these blogs on this website, who works for teslamotors. I not in the mood to do a spell check.
Looks like the missed the first 100. Is there an ability to get an order in?
Not aware of a Li-Ion wearout mechanism, and thihnking they make good spaceraft batteries
Li-Ion batterys ought to last 20 years. Only concern is getting a cooling system around the 3-phase AC motor.
—-
Editor’s Answer: Take a look at the reservations page.
I agree that the car needs a lot of coverage and other cars like it as well. Thats why I started:
www.teslmotorsclub.com for people to talk about the car and read news and see cool features on the company are their cars.
Following it will be:
www.electricperformance.com (will be up within 1 week) which covers all electric performance cars. I think if we all talk about these cars to people we know and bring up the conversation, the average street person will start to think its a reality. We just gotta keep pushing the idea.
This website is very informative.The postings on EEStor ultracapacitor and the one above on solar plastics are great. Potential for some great things to happen in next 5-15 yrs. RE. Paul posting above-why isn’t he a treehugger?-Everyone should be a tree hugger-I personally never met a tree I didn’t like (to misquote Will Rogers). What we need next, as the perfect option to go with the Tesla, is Al Gore in the White House.
Quote: “Daniel Sacks wrote on August 17th, 2006 at 11:48 am Come continue the conversation at www.teslamotorsclub.com. We have created an online community to give you the opportunity to converse with ohter people who are excited about the roadster and other future tesla vehicles.”
How about some of you joining us in discussing this remarkable car, and related issues? Check out www.teslamotorsclub.com
Vern
“Tom O’Neill wrote on August 20th: Potential for some great things to happen in next 5-15 yrs. RE. Paul posting above-why isn’t he a treehugger?– Everyone should be a tree hugger– I personally never met a tree I didn’t like (to misquote Will Rogers). What we need next, as the perfect option to go with the Tesla, is Al Gore in the White House.”
I never thought I’d say this in public, but after reading everything on this site, and seeing “Who Killed the Electric Car?”, Tom, you may be right.
Vern
I love the car and the vision you have. I’d really love some better video’s linked to the web site. I know I’m greedy for information on the car but some photo’s from the Tour D’Elegance wouldn’t be wasted on me either.
I have to comment on some of the remarks from others on the technology. Tesla is right at the cutting edge of proven technology. Both being at the cutting edge and the proven part are important. I love to hear and see links to new technology but you have to understand that they’re not going to wait for tech to catch up and they’re not going to spend 10X the money. The future is bright, on that I agree but I think that for right now they’ve chosen the perfect car to change the mass perception of electric cars.
Another thing I see is the whole, “this car isn’t really zero emission.” Well that’s not true the car is zero emission. The choice to buy electricity from dirty sources is the drivers, the car doesn’t know or care. Buy zero emission electricity, and don’t blame the car.
Already I see a shift around me at work from, “Electric Cars are boxy, slow and hard to maintain” to “Wow, that car is awesome, just wish I could afford it.” That’s a huge change for the better and I think when a good looking 50k car comes out people where I work will be ready to buy because of this car. That’s how the Tesla Roadster is changing the world, and I hope it’s Tesla selling that 50k car.
I think Tesla has the right approach/perspective - walk before you try to run. A car that would do everything (travel to the moon and back without recharging) , would do nothing well, for it would involve too many compromises. I would venture to guess that the biggest , most immediate benefit to the US , is a car that can be driven to “work” and back , for most people, which the current Tesla design does (ignoring $ for the moment). Once we get over that hump, then a car that can go long distances ( don’t need 0-60 in 4 sec) can be conceived. Frankly, in my home town, 250 miles between recharges would last almost a month.
I hope Tesla keeps their perspective and doesn’t get sidetracked by the mindless drivel that is sometimes posted here , mascarading as engineering. Hell, if your’re so smart, why didn’t you invent PayPal, Google, SpaceX, etc., etc.
there is one big flaw about electric cars. You say that it takes 3.5 hrs to fully recharge and would go about 250 miles but one wont be able to go on long trips. example your driving from new york to chicagp (on a roadtrip) after 250 miles the car would stop and even if you can charge the car some where it would take 3.5 hrs.
is there a solution?
please email me your answer
ammar
ok i got the answer for that but how big will the batteries be.
First of all, i love your car. When i can afford to this is exactly the car i would like to have. Secondly a few thoughts from the point of view of a biochemist who is also concerned about climate change.
If electricity was produced with no addition to the problem of climate change then every car in the world could be electric no problem. However at present alot of electricity production depends on fossil fuels. For various reasons I believe that renewables, clean fossil fuel technologies and other generation sources cannot replace fossil fuels within at least 20 and likely as much as 40 years. This makes electric power a problem on a large scale as i do not believe that it is possible to do this without pollution from power generation.
A reasonable extant alternative (in my opinion) would be hydrogen power. To generate this by electrolysis would make a nonsense of my points above. However biological generation (by bioengineering from a biochemistry point of view ) of hydrogen powered by sunlight would be an acceptable solution.
I am thus in favour of a hydrogen solution to the transport problem, even though electric cars are more efficient. Please note that these points apply on large scales. On small scales electric cars are fantastic and can easily be powered by renewable electricity generation. I just don’t think that this coupling can be scaled up.
You say that your car will produce less CO2. In fact it will probably produce nearly zero CO2 since most night, off peak electricity comes from nuclear power plants in most of the country. In actual fact your cars are mostly nuclear powered with the nuclear energy temporarily stored in the battery.
Here are pictures I found at Autoweek’s forums. More in page six.
www.kevinyu.com/photos/main.php?g2_itemId=1760&g2_page=5
Original forum is here:
forums.autoweek.com/thread.jspa?threadID=38779&tstart=15
Hi, I haven’t read through all the comments on the electric car, but what worries me is that electric cars are generally very quiet. Has an engine sound been built into these vehicles to…well, I don’t know perhaps warn pedestrians of their approach? I’ed hate to see more road kill than we already have.
I live in South Africa the driving is bad, road rage is worse as for hijacking well ..I guess a little engine sound won’t make much diffrence to that.
I like your argument about the prospect of the 500 mile range, but there’s still a big problem: you have to remember to charge the car. If I forget to charge my car and can’t get to work the next day I have a big problem. It’s not the same as running out of gas because 1. gas stations are everywhere and 2. refilling gas, unlike charging is immediate. As much as I want one, until we have instant recharge and charging stations as abundant as gas stations, the electric car is not going to cut it. Oh and I still use a cell phone car charger.
I live in the UK and I am very interested in the car,
Is there a right hand drive model available ?
From the UK can you power from 240v AC ?
Is there a possibility of top mounted solar cells to replace the rear of the car ?
Regards
—-
Editor’s Answer: Take a look at the FAQ. The power generated from roof mounted solar cells would be too small to help power the car.
Can I buy a Tesla Roadster if I live outside of California?
For customers who are still interested in purchasing a Tesla Roadster outside of those areas, we will be happy to sell you a vehicle but we will charge a $8,000 out-of-service-area premium to cover our costs for transportation of the vehicle to the nearest Tesla Motors Customer Care Center or any other related servicing expenses.
We currently have no plans to offer the Tesla Roadster outside of the continental US.
I own a toyta hybred, I get about 45 to 6o mph.
Vern Padgett wrote on August 17th, 2006 at 10:35 am
“The reasons given for why the EV-1 was killed in the U.S. may be true, but, how can I understand why Honda Motor Company only sold 300 Honda EVs? Did Exxon and Chevron somehow keep the Japanese from buying Hondas? Did Big Oil convince Japanese auto makers not to make any more than 300? (Japan has no oil production– surely the Japanese have no interest in preserving the oil companies.) Did Honda run TV ads that were as grim as those run by GM for their EV? And why didn’t Americans buy the Honda EV Plus? There were no leasing issues with it. $53,000 purchased it outright. Yet only 300 were sold. See (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_EV_Plus)”
I leased a Honda EV Plus for five years and loved the car. The car was never offered for sale. The price of $53,000 was used to determine the license fee on the car. After the initial three year lease Honda switched to a yearly lease and at a reduced rate with a 30 day termination clause. It stated that for any reason Honda could end the lease with 30 days notice and we would be required to return the car. That day came one month shy of five years. I pleaded with Honda to keep the car to no avail. I dropped off the car 30 days later having had the car five years to the week. In “Who Killed the Electric Car” you see what happened to my Honda EV Plus, shredded to little pieces! That scene made me sick. One of the most exciting things to me about acquiring a Tesla is that I would never have to give it back!
I’m glad Martin addressed the range issue and how he envisions the EV future. He’s obviously reading these posts and I hope he (and the rest of Tesla) aren’t getting discouraged by the increasing amount of critical, harsh, and ignorant posts.
Who are these people anyway?
On another note…
I think the Internet is a good corollary for what an EV future will look like:
When the Internet started, I don’t think anyone had envisioned it would be so tightly ingrained in our life. I wonder if some day I’ll look back and contemplate how I ever got by driving a ICE powered car in the same way I wonder how I ever bought a big ticket item without googling it first.
It seemed to take forever to get high-speed Internet access, but looking back at it I’m really amazed how fast it all happened and the bandwidth that’s available. Right now, I think we all just need to be patient. The latest batteries will get productionized and at some point we’ll look back and be amazed again at the pace of technology.
In order to “upgrade” the Internet infrastructure it cost probably trillions in R+D, fiber backbones, new switching, repeaters, etc… The entire developed world’s communication infrastructure was upgraded in a matter of a decade. In the same way we can upgrade our electrical power infrastructure. Perhaps we’ll all have solar panels and wind turbines mounted on our roof or perhaps new efficient power stations will be built. Either way, supply will meet demand.
Finally, just like the Internet era, new titans will emerge like AOL, YAHOO, GOOGLE, DELL, MICROSOFT, ETC…
re: Tree hugger
Ok, I am getting a lot of slack for saying that I’m not a tree hugger. To be completely honest, I am a closet tree hugger, but don’t tell my republican friends about it. I quess what I am against is the stereotypical images of radical hippies dancing around smoking weed, and utterly militant about exterminating the human population as the only method of decreasing the CO2 emission. That is the backlash I get every time I try to have a intellegent conversation with my conservative friends. I think both sides should just chill out and stop debating with their emotions and think with their mind. But humans are a emotional bunch. That’s why I think Teslamotors is heading in the right direction because th roadster appeals to our desires. Surely, my mind is telling me that this car is will save the world by contibuting less to CO2 emissions, but my heart is telling me I will pick up a lot of hot chicks with this car. But this is besides the point.
If President Al Gore will facilitate a Teslamotor EV in my possesion then I will convert into a democrat right now. I am such a halibut. My vote is for sale. But let’s be realistic people. If Mr.Gore throws in his chip for presidency, all the heavy hitters from “Who kill the electric car” will go against him with all their resources. That is a lot of money. Compared with the resources of a couple of hollywood stars or even, all of hollywood, he wouldn’t stand a chance. It’s like David vs. 500 Goliaths. You might stand a chance if you throw Warren Buffett and Bill Gates on your side, but we all know they are Republicans, so that’s not gonna happen. I’m not a pessamist, I am a realist. I also can’t spell worth a halibut this late in the day. By the way, that blog site for teslamotors fans, is it only for people who can afford it or is it for everybody?
Response to Bob Rolls
I am familiar with accelerated-life -testing and failure analysis and do not disagree with your over all statement. However in dealing with a large battery pack (electro chemical energy storage device) with 6000+ external cells, Cells that are manufactured in mass production ,where extremely tight processing tolerances CANNOT be mainted consistently, your accelerated life testing is nothing more than a band aid. Ccompared to real life on-road pack testing, as my questions imply. Making the comparision of landing on the moon to testing a mass produced electromachanical battery packs is unwise, and there is litrtle or nothing incommon with moon landing and the application in 100,000 miles of driving an EV powered by a Li_Ion battery pack. Suggest you check the spec on the Moon Landing barreries and their cost and how they were made and their one shot application funded by Uncle Sam with tax payers money, (no limit on costs)…Sorry old chap stick with what you know but remain inquisitive.. Cheers Galactic Cannibal
Paul above failed to mention Gore is “hard to elect” because he’s “wooden”( that’s because he has part tree DNA in his makeup-this is good.Too many treehuggers in his ancestry). He’s the only big-time politican who has been there on the environment from day 1. With the right govt. incentives, things could be turned around fast in this country re. the environment-with bigger tax breaks for EV’s the Tesla could approach affordable for more people.Like Teddy Roosevelt, Gore could use the “bully pulpit” of the White House to get things done -with help from the states, bypassing that corrupt banana reuplic called Washington D.C. when needed. As for the big guys throwing money around to beat Gore, there are enough people in urban America (including urban Florida) to elect him if Gore could do just a little better than last time in the rural areas. With enough turnout he could overcome the inevitable “weasel republican faction” voter fraud ploy (see the study by RFK Jr. on Ohio voter fraud last time-if you think Florida was bad, this was worse). So basically Bush actually lost the election to Gore (via Florida) and he lost the seocnd time to Kerry (via Ohio). By now enough people should finally realize Gore beats the heck out of anyone out there -including environmental Johnny-come-lately McCain.
I really like the car. I sounds like what I’m looking for. Any chance you can put a solar cell on the hood, etc? I know, I know, it would only provide a small amount of power. That’s not the point. It’s a small anount of power times every car you sell. Also, I like the idea of my car sitting out in the parking lot turning sunlight into energy. I’ll pay more to be able to point this out to naysayers about electric cars. Obviously, it’s not just about the econonics. I could buy a $25,000 car and have $75,000 left for gas. That’s a lot of gas even at these prices. No, it’s about saving my self and the planet. And yeah, it’s also about being ever so Cool.
Bill Stegall
P.S. to above comment: I’ve always liked everything Gore said and everything he stood for - particularly his rather recent appearance on Saturday Night Live-and most particularly his new movie & book. Gore should have been president & Clinton V.P. I don’t think he’s stiff & wooden at all-but to those who think he is I say: “what a brilliant reason not to elect someone” ( halibuts! )
Has Tesla considered getting into the coffee-house, steakhouse, bookstore or movie theater business along heavily traveled arteries? Imagine a chain of places where you hang-out while your EV is charging!!! Converse with other EV owners, grab an organic, grain fed, filet while you top-off your batteries. Have you guys talked to the Harris Ranch folks on the 5 about installing a charger there? Sometimes, you have to take the bull by the horns
.
Good Job guys, keep the innovations coming.
I am a big fan of the EV principle. At work we have a peugeot 106 EV. The main reason it is unpopular is it’s lack of range!. If there was to be an affordable EV with a reasonable range on it I would definitely buy one!
Although the Tesla sports car version would be no good to me because of the fact I have got kids a family/4-seat version would be great. The other thing is that I live in the UK, why are there no plans to distribute the Tesla outside of the United States despite the fact that you are assembling them in the UK?
I love this car.if i have enough money I would like to buy two!!
www.icebin.net/post/619.html
My blog post.
Hi.
I read about your car in Wired and I hope your car will be a great success story. However, as I live in in the northern most parts of Europe where temperatures sometimes go far below -20′C in the winter, I’d be really curious how “White Star” would perform during our winter season. What I’ve heard is that the Prius performs quite well even if it is cold, but then that car is a hybrid-engine powered car. What about a car that is batterydriven only? Anyways, it’s nice to know that someone out there have the guts to challenge the big car-manufacturers at the same time rethink how to create and manufacture a car
/PG
Tesla II
I believe that you survive in the automotive business by building a better car than the other guys. Now that you gotton this far, work on
Tesla II should be well under way to make it a World Class Sport Car . You have the advantage of having an electric car, now design
the car around around the batteries that power it. What you did with Tesla I is to design the car around “computer batteries” wrong
way to go. What you need is a “car battery” designed for an electric car. The computer companies seem to have lost their way and
taken a wrong turn. Do not be fooled, the last thing you need is to have to recall your cars and replace the batteries. Lithium-ion batteries
are not safe for use in computers and with 900lbs of them in a car could spell complete disaster for Tesla’s furture. All it would take
is to have one car have a fire and the newpapers would have a field day with it. When you use Lithium-ion batteries you are trading
trading “safety and reliablibity” for extended range of the batteries, a very bad choice that will soon put you out of business.
What you need is a battery that is as safe as a lead-acid battery. One that can take some abuse and keep on ticking. I would suggest
a “sodium nickel chloride battery” which has about the same energy density as the Lithium-ion and should be good for a 300 to 400 mile
range. Now this is a battery that you can design the car around because this battery can be used as the floor of the EV and no one
would even know it is there and it would free up a lot of room in the car. One of the biggest advantages is that this battery is not
affected by the weather and it works as well in the cold as it does in the heat. Further, this is a hot battery and will heat the car with
no problem. Further, this heat could also be used to generate cold to cool the car in the summer. To top it off you have lowered the
center of gravity of the car to the lowest point possible and further the weight of the batteries can now be precisely balanced so
that all four wheel have to same amount of weight on them. The Tesla II would then have the lowest center of gravity of any sports
car and be perfectly balanced going thought the turns. Think about it if you want to stay in business you have to build a better car.
Ronald Greene
So you say Tesla should use sodium nickel chloride batteries. Who sells them? How much do they cost? I searched online and didn’t find a website/company selling these. I did find a site saying “only one factory in the world produces these batteries” and that they were “expensive”. Also they operate at 270 degrees C which sounds like it could present a safety issue if the cells were ruptured. And the cells need to be heated to that temperature (which could take many hours) before they can be used. Favorite quote: “Uses 14% of its own capacity per day to maintain temperature when not in use.”. So either you must charge your car daily even if not using it, or let the battery cool to save energy, but then it takes hours to reheat it if you want to use the car.
There is no perfect battery solution. The one Tesla has chosen actually exists, can be bought in large quantities at a barely-acceptable price, and provides good power and range at low weight. I think they made the best choice they could.
The Zebra battery has an operating temperature of around 300 degrees C which requires that the battery is enclosed in a thermally insulated box. How hot does the engine on your car run. Is that a disadvantage, no we do not even think about it. The batteries come
in a stainless steel double wall construction box. They have been tested against fire, crash and etc and passed all safety test. Yes,
the battery uses 14% of its power per day to maintain temperature when not in use but if you are charging the battery with solar power which is free who cares. These batteries have been extensively tested for their practicality and have passed all test put to them and will be used in the smart car. The Zebra batteries are ideally suited to pure electric cars like the Tesla. Further, the Zebra battery can produce
operating voltages as high as 600V. That means more power and efficientcy are available if you want go 200 miles per hour your can.
Sources: Beta Research & Development Zebra Advanced Battery Research, Out of Africa, the story of the zebra battery .
It is good that someone is actually trying to bring EVs to the masses. I would however like for you to have a section called “the downside of ev’s”. In it for instance you could mention that because you will have to replace the batteries every 100,000 miles for the (imho) estimated price of $30,000 that you are in reality not paying only 1 cent per mile but 30 + 1 cents per mile. At the current price of about $3 per gallon of gasoline, that means the tesla EV gets about 10 miles per gallon. Not good, but worth it if the buyer has a conscience and the money.
to j devo: you make a good point about the replacement price of batteries, but your numbers are high. The replacement cost today is more like $20k, and likely to be closer to $10k within 5 years.
It seems battery technology and recharging concerns are the main topics on this blog…
Here are some more ideas about various EV battery technologies:
~1995 technology - Sealed Lead Acid
~2000 technology - Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH)
~2005 technology - Lithium Ion ( Li-Ion)
~2010 technology - Ultracapacitor
Typical Recharge Time
~12 hours : Sealed Lead Acid
~6 hours : Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH)
~4 hours : Lithium Ion ( Li-Ion)
~1 hour : Ultracapacitor (high current power lines required)
Specific Energy (Wh/kg)
~30 : Sealed Lead Acid
~60 : Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH)
~120 : Lithium Ion ( Li-Ion)
~?240? : Ultracapacitor
Recharge cycles before batteries fall to 80% of original capacity
~300 : Sealed Lead Acid
~500 : Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH)
~600 : Lithium Ion ( Li-Ion)
>2000? : Ultracapacitor
Time to lose complete charge if not left on charger
~40 days : Sealed Lead Acid
~60 days : Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH)
~120 days : Lithium Ion ( Li-Ion)
>240 days? : Ultracapacitor
Cost per Kwh
$8.00 : Sealed Lead Acid
$20.00 : Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH)
$24.00 : Lithium Ion ( Li-Ion)
>$24? : Ultracapacitor
Calendar lifespan of pack (pack in storage not being used)
~4 years : Sealed Lead Acid
~10 years : Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH)
~5 years : Lithium Ion ( Li-Ion)
>10 years : Ultracapacitor
Note - the above values are approximate…. Particular brands or variants of each can differ.
Note - battery lifespan and ability to hold charge is very dependent on the conditions in which the batteries are used and maintained. Ideally the pack is usually left on a charger and has an intelligent controller managing state of charge, temperature and other factors.
As you can see, the battery technology keeps getting better and better, with another generation after Li-Ion expected to improve in just about every way.
Another benefit of Ultracaps are that they can discharge faster than the chemical batteries. I understand that the Tesla Roadster motor is rated at 240hp because that is the most current they can draw from the current Li-Ion pack. When Ultracaps are ready, they could (theoretically) get more power from the same motor.
I checked the Tesla website today, and was excited to see the first 100 roadsters have sold. I have two children and drive about 200 miles per week in Seattle. I currently drive a 2004 Prius, which I love, but I await the day I can buy a Tesla 4-door sedan, park it in my garage, and recharge it through the solar panels I will have on my roof sometime in the next five years. If people could drive dependable, enjoyable, practical electric family cars, powered by solar energy, the current list of serious global challenges would be, at least, rearranged. I hope the Tesla roadster will make Tesla’s a “status” car, and that Tesla does come out with a luxurious (but not $90K worth) sedan, so people driving Volvos, BMWs, Lexuses, and Mercedes will be happy to switch. At that point, with an established market, mainstream carmakers will come around. Congratulations. Work fast.
Since the car is being ASSEMBLED in the UK..why not sell it there? In fact Europeans generally DON’T make the gigantic trips our American friends often do..so in many ways the car is more suited for this side of the Atlantic. Any idea of a date for release in the Uk or continental Europe?
Let’s figure out how much a Tesla roadster costs over the lifetime of its battery:
If the EV car is driven 100,000 miles in 10 years, and gets 135 mpg, then that’s the equivalent of 74 gallons per year. At $3.00 per gallon, a cost of $222.22 per year.
Compare to a gasoline car (ICE): 100,000 in 10 years, at 30 mpg, or 333.33 gallons per year. At $3.00 per gallon, a cost of $999.99 per year.
Figure maintenance at an optimistic $250.00 per year for the ICE, vs half the cost for an EV ($125.00 / yr). Totals $1249.00 per year for an ICE, and $347.22 for an EV.
The total difference in savings favors the EV by approx. $901.78 / yr, or $75.14 / month.
Now figure battery replacement for an EV at $20,000 in 10 years, or $2,000 per year cost. That’s $166.67 per month battery cost minus $75.14 in savings, for a cost of $91.52 per month.
The EV costs $1098.24 / yr, the ICE costs $1249.00 per year.
EV saves $150.76 dollars per year, over $1500.00 in 10 years, slightly more than the first year of savings.
In other words, the first year of operating and maintenance costs is FREE, when calculated over the life of the car.
An ICE will increase its costs over time, with more chances for breakdown. When you figure an EV is more reliable than an ICE, and the chances that EV costs will remain steady or reduce over 10 years– I’d take the Tesla!
10000 / 135 = 74.07
74.07 * $3.00 = $222.22
+ $125.00 maint = $347.22
10000 / 30 = 333.33
333.33 * $3.00 = $999.99
+$250.00 maint = $1249.00
Saving $901.78 per year = $75.14 / mo
$20000 / 10 = $2000.00
$166.66 per mo - $75.14 = $91.52 / mo
Question for Martin Eberhard:
Ford comes to you and says, here’s a check for $500 million, we would like to buy your company and “continue” your research. Would you accept?
J Devo, in addition if you are going to do a full economic calculation don’t forget to figure in the savings from not needing oil changes and most other maintainance needed by ICEs.
Ronald, how did you determine the roadster would have a longer range with the Zebra batteries? I did some calculations, and the power/weight ratio and energy density of those batteries is almost identical to (if not a bit less than) the lithium battery pack the roadster is using. The price I managed to find ($200/kwh in high volume whatever that is) isn’t particularly better than lithium either. That assumes those prices are valid; the Zebra website doesn’t list pricing.
To j devo
I would add to Doc’s comments
The 2003 average price of gas was $1.56 and 2004 was 1.85. It was 2.40 or so last year. I’m sure next year it will be even higher when owners take delivery of their cars and it will be even more 100K miles down the road.
Also, to be fair in a comparison, if you are going to bring a replacement part into the equation then you have to calculate in the ICE parts and service (labor) that you would have and replace such as oil changes, filters, sensors and all the other “expendable” parts that an AC motor does not have. Let alone the possibility of a full or partial combustion engine rebuild after 100K miles.
One more thing. Tesla says battery replacement happens at 80%. Does that mean every owner would replace the box becase the car only gets 200 miles on a charge?
cheers,
e
Still the batteries are way too high in price. what is the true miles of a charge can the batteries get after six month of charging and discharging?
As you may know the more the charging the less life on any battery.
What are the true facts on total performance after a year of testing every day use?
What are the true facts on break downs on the electronics voltage controls?
What types of electrical fires did you really have?
Why are there no reports on any problems?
Is this a true super car?
According to your FAQ’s the roadster will require maximum of 4 services (check in’s) per 100,000 miles – the battery’s life – perhaps even less than that.
If you consider that in the same period a “regular” vehicle will require about 20 services the cost of replacing the battery - $10,000 in 5 years – suddenly doesn’t seem to be quite so expensive.
Not only is it amazing how many people who post here haven’t even read through this site, but it’s also amazing how many electric car design experts there are out there not to mention battery design experts too!!! If one took into account all the “complaints” there are in this blog, it would seem that the whiners expect no electric cars should be produced until the car is perfected in every way including range, battery life, the car automatically does your dishes & laundry, etc… Check out this quote; “there is one big flaw about electric cars. You say that it takes 3.5 hrs to fully recharge and etc etc….” Did we not already discuss the recharge time or am I missing something?? Is recharge time a new concept??
It’s also amazing how many people apparently know the best way you guys should run your business…I found this quote up a little… “Think about it if you want to stay in business etc etc etc…………” Martin, did you realize that you won’t stay in business unless you listen to that guy??
And then there’s this little gem I read a little ways up:
“Cost per Kwh
$8.00 : Sealed Lead Acid
$20.00 : Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH)
$24.00 : Lithium Ion ( Li-Ion)
>$24? : Ultracapacitor”
I sure would like to know where I can get Li-Ion batteries for $24/kwh…. I’d buy a hundred kwh right now…. Martin, Tesla might want to get in on this deal too, eh??
This quote from the Guardian has me concerned.
“We have the big guys sniffing around, talking about buying technology, even hinting about buying the whole company,” says Harrigan.
Ford, Chrysler and Nissan have all made the visit to Tesla’s base in California and expressed an interest in the company. But for now, says Harrigan, the high-performance electric car market is probably going to remain in the hands of smaller, non-traditional companies.
“If we sold 2,000 cars in our second year that would be a huge success for us,” he says. “For [the big companies] that would be a dismal failure.”
Eberhard agrees. “If the cheque was big enough and meant a real commitment from them to build the company then I think that’s a good thing,” he says.
I’ve just read the review in the Guardian G2 (UK) - fantastic! I have a Prius but never expected this magnitude of leap in technology to power a super car!
Always - my first response to why I don’t have a sports car was - wasteful MPG.
No More! with your guilt free sports car!
I WANT ONE - NOW!
But I’m in the UK!
Surely it’s not THAT much of a ligistical problem to sell it here? Since you wouldn’t have to IMPORT it? You’d only need ONE service centre, with optional pick-up charge? How about somewhere in Norfolk ?
(I think there’s a company based there you may have dealings with……?:-) )
Please reconsider selling in the UK asap - there IS a market for it!
Am I REALLY going to have to move to the States in order to have my dream car??
Please respond.
This quote makes me excited about the next model in the Tesla line.
Meanwhile there is the future to be dealt with. Tesla is moving on, developing a four-door, all-electric sedan which, according to Eberhard, will be “big, fast and efficient - don’t think Corolla, think BMW. I love to drive and I think cars have been a great source of freedom for people. So I thought what if we could make a car that is nice to drive, it looks nice and would be very efficient? Let’s take the philosophy that we’ll make the best possible car we can.”
YEA to all the nay sayers forget the sports car and make one for the masses. Most daily transportation is to and from work, my round trip is 43miles and then the car is in the garage while I sleep perfect time to recharge. If you are going further than the range of the car FLY!!! Think about air conditioning.
Thomas wrote:
>>> And then there’s this little gem I read a little ways up:
>>> “Cost per Kwh
>>> $8.00 : Sealed Lead Acid
>>> $20.00 : Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH)
>>> $24.00 : Lithium Ion ( Li-Ion)
>>> >$24? : Ultracapacitor”
>>> I sure would like to know where I can get Li-Ion batteries for $24/kwh…. I’d buy a hundred kwh right now…. Martin, Tesla might want to get in on this deal too, eh??
Appologies to all for not making the label clear on the data.
The above numbers are for “Cost to Recharge per kWh of charge”, not “”Cost to buy per kWh of capacity”.
You can see a similar table here: nms.csail.mit.edu/fun/battery.ppt
Cost to buy for the various batteries are more like:
$100 / kWh : Sealed Lead Acid
$500 / kWh : Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH)
$1500 / kWh : Lithium Ion ( Li-Ion)
$1500 / kWh? : Ultracapacitor
And I don’t claim to be a battery expert… Feel free to further rip apart my lame attempt at simplifying and presenting the data.
(It is just fodder for ongoing discussion…)
To Martin Eberhard:
What I am suggesting is that you consider replacing the” high risk Lithium battery” in the Tesla with a” low risk battery of sodium-nickel chloride”. The specific energy of both batteries are similar. It translates to 3 times the range of a car with a lead-acid battery. The EV 1 from General Motors using lead acid batteries got about 90 miles per charge therefore the sodium-nickel battery should give you a range
of about 300 miles. The Zebra battery cannot be used for small applications such as computers but it is the perfect battery for an electric car as it will stand a lot of abuse and not catch fire or explode and has been crash tested to speed speeds of 30 miles per hour. For those who do not know the computer industry has been forced to recall 4.1 million Litium-ion batteries because of fire and explodsions. Why should Telsa a new company run this risk went it does not have to. The first rule of electric cars is that they must be practical, safe and reliable. Research on the Zebra battery started in 1970 and over 35 years of contiuous improvements results in the battery that exist today which can take the abuse that people who buy sports car are going to subject it to. A Swiss company called MES-DEA is now building the battery which harnesses the chemical reaction between nickel and ordinary salt (sodium chloride) to create three time the electrical charge as a conventional lead-acid battery. I see that many of you are concerned about battery life. The Beta company expects each sodium-nickel battery to last more than a decade. By the time you will need to replace it the cost will no longer be a problem. In the event of a severe crash, the two liquids (molten sodium and molten sodium aluminium) combine to form solids sodium choloride and aluminium. Zebra batteries have passed all Europen Car Federation test. One of these test involves setting fire to the battery for
30 minitues, there is no way a Lithium battery would ever pass these test. Considering that a car crash can start a fire it is a valid test that car batteries should be able to pass.
Ronald Greene
Looking at various House & Senate bills (not yet laws) being considered I found S.2748 “Enhanced Energy Security Tax Incentives Act of 2006″ interesting.
Note from:
thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c109:1:./temp/~c109aZVHOB:e8812:
=============================================================================================
SEC. 110. EXTENSION OF FULL CREDIT FOR QUALIFIED ELECTRIC VEHICLES.
(a) In General- Section 30(e) is amended by striking `2006′ and inserting `2010′.
(b) Repeal of Phaseout- Section 30(b) (relating to limitations) is amended by striking paragraph (2) and by redesignating paragraph (3) as paragraph (2).
(c) Credit Allowable Against Alternative Minimum Tax- Paragraph (2) of section 30(b), as redesignated by subsection (b), is amended to read as follows:
`(2) APPLICATION WITH OTHER CREDITS- The credit allowed by subsection (a) for any taxable year shall not exceed the excess (if any) of–
`(A) the sum of the regular tax for the taxable year plus the tax imposed by section 55, over
`(B) the sum of the credits allowable under subpart A and section 27.’.
(d) Effective Date- The amendments made by this section shall apply to taxable years beginning after December 31, 2005.
====================================================================================================
(note a huge deal, but if the above passes, Tesla customers could get an AMT useful tax break that otherwise expires before 2007)
Also, here is a list of some companies that make Lithium-Ion batteries:
* Saft
* Valence
* Tadiran
* Ecocell
* Moli-Cell
* Sony
* Sanyo
* Panasonic
* Maxell
* Empire
* Gold Peak
* LG
Martin, I was glad to see you mention KOA at the end of your post, because I think that a very significant charging infrastructure already exists in the form of RV hookups at commercial campgrounds, public parks, etc. If I go to www.woodalls.com and check the “50 amps” box on their advanced search, I get 383 hits in California. Heading east, 84 in NV, 80 in UT, and 188 in Colorado.
I leave it as an exercise for the reader to check the rest of the way across the country - and to an intrepid Tesla or Google intern to create a Google map that shows all the potential recharge sites in North America. I’ll expect to see a link to that map on this website in two weeks.
I will pose the obvious question though - of those lucky new Tesla owners, who will be the first to drive his/her roadster across the country? Or perhaps it’s already been done while testing a prototype?
Good luck to all involved with Tesla, employees and customers.
I don’t know if anyone else has posted this link, but apparently AC Propulsion converts Scion xBs for $55K. The electric xB uses Li-Ion batteries, allegedly goes from 140-180 miles on a charge, can charge partially in 30 minutes and fully in between 2.5 and 5 hours (depending upon selected charge mode). Top speed is limited to 90mph.
Personally, the boxy xB is too ugly for my sensibilities. (Every time we see one on the road, one or more members of my family exclaims, “What were they THINKING?”) But Scion seems to be selling a fair number of them in the circa $20K range. Add on the price of conversion and you’re still $15-25K less than a Roadster.
www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=1084
I forgot to add: Me personally, I think I’ll wait.
Quote by TEG
“The above numbers are for “Cost to Recharge per kWh of charge”, not “”Cost to buy per kWh of capacity”.
TEG man,
You have something wrong with your numbers mister… To charge ANY battery it will cost whatever your KWh cost is from your power company plus the loss in the battery and charger… For instance, I currently pay about $.06 per KWh… For me to charge one KWh of electricity into a battery it would cost me $.06 (6 cents) plus about one more penny for a battery that is 85% efficient for a total cost of about $.07 (7 cents)… This would apply to ANY battery with an efficiency of 85%…. Thus, to charge a Tesla Roadster (figuring a 45KWh capacity and 85% efficiency in charger & battery), it would cost me about $3… With 250 miles range, it works out to about 1.2 cents per mile….
If it was $24 per KWh, it would cost about $1000 per charge for a Tesla Roadster… Not too impressive, eh??
Could you please add the side profile car image in the “buy” tab, to the wallpaper images for download. I like that one best. Thanks.
—-
Editor’s Answer: The wallpaper you requested has just been posted to the wallpaper page.
I was thrilled when I learned about the Tesla. I almost bought a Lotus and I’m glad I waited. I was sad to learn of the $75k deposit required but I’m sure the line will be long to obtain one of these great cars. I grew up in San Carlos so I was also thrilled to learn Tesla Motors is based there. I can’t wait to see the sedan. Sign me up (as soon as the deposit amount drops)!!! PS is there a way to tour the company? My dad was an electical engineer until he retired and he would love to walk through.
Thank you.
Regards,
Rolf
There are many good or bad points brought up by the commits by:
Vern Padgett wrote on August 17th, 2006 at 10:35 am
Tesla Motors: You have a wonderful car, and congratulations on your success in selling the first 100! Your web site is a delight.
I will buy an all-electric car, probably a Tesla Model 2.
I make my own electricity– I’ve had a 2.2 kWh photovoltaic on my roof for 3 years– and have not paid the power company, SCE, anything during that time. I will put another 6 panels on my roof, have a 3.3 kWh system, and have free fuel for my car.
I saw “Who Killed the Electric Car?” last week, and it fired me up. I’ve read everything on the Tesla web site, and read the Wikipedia article on Battery Electric Vehicles at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_vehicle . I’ve ordered 2 books on electric cars.
We need all-electric cars, for the reasons so well-stated here and elsewhere.
Carl B———-The bad points are that millions of alternate fuel vehiclessuch as the H-2 fuel cell and other EVs. I haven’t seen “who killed the EV” yet, but we know how much money is involved with the reciprocating engine automobile and the energy it consumes. It is the large corporate businesses and they have control of what goes on. How many “patents” for better efficent autos do you think that they are controlling or”sitting on”?
Thomas wrote:
>>> TEG man,
>>> You have something wrong with your numbers mister…
>>> To charge ANY battery it will cost whatever your KWh cost is
>>> from your power company plus the loss in the battery and charger…
>>> For instance, I currently pay about $.06 per KWh…
You still don’t understand those values - they are based on cost per kWh figuring in the original cost of the cells and then the total energy you can get out of them over their lifetime. So it takes into account the cost of the cell, its capacity and how many times it can be recharged.
See this for more examples:
www.technick.net/public/code/cp_dpage.php?aiocp_dp=guide_bpw2_c17_02
… Got it now? …
To the person above who mentioned the Zebra battery, according to Wikipedia, the Zebra battery requires an operating temperature of 250 degrees Celsius and must be maintained at that temperature or else it will be necessary to spend a few days reheating them:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_battery
That does not make for a great automotive battery, especially for a small Silicon Valley startup that plans to ride battery technology improvements created for mobile computing applications. Not to mention, if you are in a collision and the battery is punctured, you will die regardless of whether it is a lithium-ion battery explosion or molten liquid that kills you.
I got so carried away that I forgot to finish my sentence,which is:
The bad points are that millions of alternate fuel vehiclessuch as the H-2 fuel cell and other EVs, such as the Tesla are not already being mass produced at lower prices than the “fuel hogs” for the consumers. I’ve got a feeling that this is not going to happen very soon.
All electric motors usually have a problem with the lubrication of their bearings over a long time frame. Is there any special features for insuring a long life for the Tesla’s motor bearings?
According to AC propulsion website Scion XB would be around price of old Toyota RAV4 EV- I think that was less than $55,000, anyone know?-I think I heard somewhere it was around $38,000 -$42,000. For Tesla sport sedan, would vacuum formed aluminum (used by Panoz cars) be a good idea? Carbon fiber seems too expensive. A company in Riverside,CA. makes the Panoz alum. bodies-vacuum forming alum. that has been heated almost to the melting point.
Are there any Edwin Gray,s electric discharge motors in your car?
This is able to recharge the batteries it self, with out any charging needed.
Using some of Tesla ideas..
I would look into this, his patents are over 20 years old.
You indicate that there is a significant charge, added to the sale price, to cover shipping to a Tesla dealer for those that decide to buy a vehicle outside the dealer local coverage area. Since you already seem to have a good working relationship with Lotus, is there any reason why you would not be able to take advantage of their dealer network to provide sales and support for the Tesla vehicles? Seems like this might also make maintenance much less of a concern for someone that might be willing to purchase otherwise.
BG FYI’s on Tesla
72.21.11.50/dw/tesla.avi
My last two posts on this blog site were not published. They did not contain any fishy words. I asked if TeslaMotors road tested their Li-Ion battery pack to 100,000 miles or to end of useful cycle life (on road). NO REPLY from Tesla Motors. TM can hide behind thier slick marketing hype only for so long. But until they publish test results for 100,000 miles drives with several battery packs then all this hype is “PIE IN THE SKY”. Any battery pack that has 6000+ external connections cannot be guaranteed to be reliable when used in an EV application. 98% of people know nothing about batteries or battery techniologies so slick marketing hype sound good to them.
Thank you …Galactic Cannibal
—-
Editor’s Note: Duplicate blog comments are deleted.
To Editor Note: Thanks for your response which is understandable……..Galactic Cannibal
TEG ,
I understand now what you were trying to get across however, the reference you give is sadly outdated. They indicate a 18650 Li-ion cell cost of $100, yet I find these cells all over the web advertised at $5 or less. I also question the accuracy of that table in general since all the sites that sell the 18650 li-ion cells indicate they are 3.7 volts, not 7.2. So, doing the math, I calculate the cost of ownership of a 18650 Li-ion cell that costs $5 and is 1200 mAh with a cycle life of 500 (as they describe) to be about $2.25 per kWh.
Am I missing something here??
According to your website, the batteries in your Roadster is guaranteed for 500 charge/discharge cycles or 100,000 miles. Also, you make a point of charging the Roadster like a cell phone where you would go home each night and simply plug it in. If you were to plug it in every night, technically the batteries would only last for about 1.4 years. Is my assumption correct?
Since an average driver only use their car about 250 miles per week, would it prolong the battery life to simply charge it once per week or as needed?
If the latter is true, than you certainly don’t want to plug it in every night like a cell phone, rather charge it as needed like filling up your gas engine car when empty.
—-
Editor’s Answer: Li-ion batteries do not suffer from the memory problems associated with nickel cadmium and nickel metal hydride batteries. The 500 cycles referred to is complete cycles. Thus if you discharge by 50 % two days in a row and recharge every night, that is equivalent to one cycle. The FAQ will be updated to make this point clear.
To Richard:
Yes, I understand that Tesla intends to ride the Lithium battery improvement curve and that is my concern because it is a high
risk battery which was never intended for use in a car because of its potential for explosions. This battery has not passed any
safety test whatsoever and the people buying the car do not know this. Batteries for use in electric cars are only now being
tested. For example, Altair Nanotechnolgies as of June 10, 2006 just completed a series of safety tests on its lithium ion batteries.
It states that,” concerns related to the potential for explosion, typically caused by charging malfunction or extremes of temperature,
…have been an obstacle to using lithium ion batteries to power electric and hybrid electric vehicles. Another battery maker Valence Technologies states that their batteries, “unlike their competitors don’t blow up”. A third Texas-based battery company is so
confident of the safety of its battery that it shot one with a bullet to see what would happen. Nothing much, for them which is in stark contrast to the other companies lithium-ion battery which shown in the video explodes in a fiery ball. Further, products such as electric cars that use large numbers of cells present a much greater fire and explosion hazanrd than small personal electronic devices and this
is why engineers have been hesitant to choose lithium-ion batteries for automobiles and other “large-format’ applications. On the other
hand, the Zebra or Sodum/Nickel Chloride battery is a low risk battery and has passed very stringent battery test such as puncture, being set on fire for 30 minutes and crash test and passed all test with flying colors. The Zebra battery is made up of modules which contiain very little liquid and when it is punctured not much happens. I understand that Telsa is using computers to check the temperature
and etc. of the Lithium cells and will isolate and turn off any cell that does not function correctly. The problem is that in a crash
very high G forces will be generated and individual cells can rip loose crashing against the metal sides of its container and may set off a
situation like firing a bullet into a lithium cell whereup it could explode. This would never happen with a Zebra battery and the drivers
of electric cars should not have to worry about this happening.
Ronald Greene
Ronald Greene,
Please read the safety section on this site. They have been tested, they’ve been tested in many ways. They’ve said that they’ve intentionally set one battery on fire by super heating it to ensure that a full charge explosion wouldn’t spread to the other batteries in the metal battery container. They’ve got multiple layers of safety and the battery they use has been tested.
I think you’re intentionally trying to spread fear, or sell a product.
Ronald Greene said, “A third Texas-based battery company is so
confident of the safety of its battery that it shot one with a bullet to see what would happen. Nothing much, for them which is in stark contrast to the other companies lithium-ion battery which shown in the video explodes in a fiery ball.”
I agree that having a bullet-proof battery would be a practical consideration and an important selling point in California, especially L.A.
For all you looking for electric veihcle EV solutions today…there are two choices: Low speed EV’s or High speed EV’s. I personally don’t think the low speed are very practical. (Max speed of 40mph or less), but they are out there.
Here is a list of low speed EV cars.
Feel Good Cars - Canada www.feelgoodcars.com
ZAP Zebra (Zap! is bringing SMART cars to the US, along with EV’s and 100% ethanol. www.zapworld.com
Here is a list of High speed EV cars
The Tesla Roadster (of course) www.teslamotors.com
Commuter Car www.commutercars.com (George Clooney has one of these)(I kind of like them, but the batteries need to be upgraded to li-ion or better)
Corbin Sparrow - I’ve seen one in person and a few on the net. 3 wheel small EV)
Obvio 0128E, Obvio 012E (this one looks neat - 3 seater) www.zapworld.com/cars/obvio012.asp
Alternative fuel cars
Obvio 828 www.obvio.ind.br/obviona/828.htm
Obvio 012 (variants of the EV cars listed above) but burn 100% ethanol/100%gasoline or any combo of each. www.obvio.ind.br/obviona/012.htm
To Greg Woulf:
Saftey standarts will obviuosly need to set in this country as are allready in place in Europe by independent EV organizations who will test the batteries. Crash test, setting fire to the batteries for 30 minutes, and puncture test will need to be done and approval given or denied. Above all EV’s need to be safe and reliable because you will be riding with 900lbs of this stuff in your car. You want a battery that will take abuse and not go boom. Apple computer has issued a recall of 1.8 million of its batteries lets not make the same mistake.
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
—-
Editor’s Reminder: Take a look at the safety page.
What is the discharge rate of your battery? If I were to fully charge the car but not drive it for awhile, how many days or months will it take for the battery to completely discharges?
Also, is the battery’s longevity strictly based on charge/discharge cycle or mileage? For example, if I were to drive only 50k miles in 30 years, would the batteries still be good? The majority of the Roadster owners probably won’t drive it for more than 4k to 6k miles per year… if so will the battery last 20 years?
Do the recent Dell and Apple battery recalls affect the decision to use lithium-ion batteries similar to those in laptops? What are you doing to alleviate any chance of a sudden catastrophic blaze from thousands of lithium ion batteries ablaze at once?
—-
Editor’s Answer: At the risk of repeating myself, have you seen the safety page?
To the Directors of Tesla Motors: Whoever advised Tesla Motors ™ to use Li-Ion small cell batteries in a huge multi-pack configuration that needs 6000+ external connections, to power the Roadster , was and is OUT IN LEFT FIELD. TM were sold a battery design that is a chemical implosion or chemical explosion waiting to happen. Its a bloddy shame the investors in TM were led down this hazard path. But before its too late TM must road test at least 2 battery backs to 100,000 miles of driving. Then do a teardown analysis both chemical and mechanical, and publish the results. All the Li-ion cells must come from the battery manufacturer’s standard production run and not be put through a selective QA process before assembly into a pack. In my opinion if MT does not fully road test at least 2 battery packs to 100,000 miles, they could be the next national TV news on exploding batteries. Up there with Sony, Dell, Apple Computer, plus many more companies who experienced battery explosions but were too small to merit national TV coverage.
If TM ignores real life on-road testing as stated above, then MT will get what they deserve i fear, and thats not going to be pretty. In addition MT will have set back the embro EV industry indefinitely. Thank you….Galactic Cannibal
er nevermind
This vehicle is sufficent for all of my driving. If it were affordable I would purchase one this week.
I think this stuff about battery testing etc is a bit annoying. How many people have fully tested the safety of the fuel system in their
current car…. here’s a hint, it’s full of gallons of HIGHLY EXPLOSIVE LIQUID. Yet I don’t see cars self-combusting while I’m driving
the public roads avery day. Lets see, what’s safer…. a hundred batteries or a gallon of gas…..let me think really hard about that one.
Also I have trouble understanding what all the fuss about charging is. IT’S LIKE A CELL PHONE PEOPLE. You charge it when it’s getting
low.
I must say these message boards are a very interesting study in psychology.
Go Tesla. The country needs you.
Congratulations on staking out a different niche for EV production (i.e. Not another glorified golf cart). Once you get past the limited market place for expensive toys occupied mainly by people that can afford to write a six-figure check out of their personal checking accounts you will have to deliver a vehicle that provides a more reasonable “value proposition” .
Aside from all of the hand-wringing going on about imported energy, global green house gases and their effects and other geo-political concerns, at the end of the discussion any company that has to make a buck by selling product at more than cost has to have an attractive product that will sell in sufficient volumes to sustain itself.
An EV that transports a maximum of two occupants (no matter how quickly) even for unheard of distances on a full charge at a price point just over six-figures just doesn’t calculate in the mass-market (even in California, home of the million-dollar “fixer upper” home).
I’ll be in the market for a new vehicle in a couple of years and the main uses will be daily-commuting (to the train station and back home) with other weekly trips for shopping and the occasional road trip. I don’t actually need to transport more than two people in this vehicle under any circumstances and as such my sights are set on a small performance oriented coupe. Fuel efficiency is high on the list competing with performance, appearance and ease of maintenance.
My current list of candidates runs from the Honda Si coupe at the low end up through the BMW 335 coupe at the high end. I would rather spend closer to 25K than the 50K or so at the upper end, but I could seriously consider something like the Tesla coupe for something in the neighborhood of 50K.
At that price I would expect to be able to get 12-18 years of use out of the vehicle over a total of 200-250K miles. I would have to be seriously concerned with the battery replacement costs of a 200Kwh “ESS” unit. As well my operating cost-per-mile would have to be such that I could recover at least the majority of the difference in cost over a hydrocarbon fueled vehicle in that time frame. Any difference not recovered would be a self-imposed “green tax” that will undoubtedly make it much easier for me to sleep at night.
My hope is that you will get to the production volume needed to reduce your cost per unit to at least half of where you are currently. If that should happen I think you would move to near the top of my list of new vehicle candidates worthy of serious consideration.
Sincerely,
Mike Connor
I want one! OK, I got that out the way…
Now my question: How well does your model scale? Let’s say that this is wildly successful and 1 in 100 people drive electric - will the electricity grid handle it? I doubt it! We can’t even handle heatwaves without the power grid getting flaky as millions of air conditioners start running. I live in the part of the midwest that suffered from the big blackout a few years back and didn’t California go through it’s own electrivity woes (something about the pre-Arnie governor meddling in the economics of electicity wholesaling and distribution).
Or will it a necessity to sell those solar panels that Elon was hawking over in his blog post
You have to commoditize your compliments, right? So, how much does the installation of solar panels at home and possibly at work cost? If that price comes down (and works in cloudy Ann Arbor) then I like the idea of real energy independence.
Two side questions:
1) What’s the downside for Solar Panels? Most of the other “sustainable” electricity sources suffer from some kind of environmental downside (e.g. windmills and bats don’t mix!) - so I wonder what the downside of solar is (is it just that it won’t work for me here in cloudy Ann Arbor?)
2) Elon - how do you get to be so halibut rich that you can fund all these companies and list your full time job as running SpaceX? You lucky, lucky, halibut
OK - now I’ve halibutted off the boss - can I have a job? And if so, can I get a company car?
All the best!
John H.
Hooray! Way to go / travel!!
Let’s “save our planet’, as well as avoiding being externally manipulated by fluctuating supplies and costs of oil.
I’m eagerly anticipating an affordable electric vehicle, family sedan, ASAP, using a development of Toshiba’s new rapid-charge nano-Lithium-ion batteries, …..thanks good Folks.
Cheers, Peter.
SAW THE CEO ON MARKET WATCH AND I WAS VERY IMPRESS WITH HIS COMMENTS. THIS IS THE CAR OF THE FUTURE. I DON’T NECESSARYLY WANT TO BUY THE CAR BUT I DO WANT TO INVEST. PLEASE PROVIDE ME WITH INFO ON WHERE AND HOW CAN I INVEST. ALSO, IS THERE ANY PLANS FOR A SUV ? THANKS.
WIN SCOTT
It’s a brilliant strategy coming out with a “hot” electric car to get people seeing electric vehicles as Real vehicles. Wishing you success with this endeavour.
There is so much “common sense” pouring out of your company. This will surely be a winning strategy to convince consumers. Thanks for the courage to push ahead with your vision of the future.
I would like your feedback/comments on the following:
You appear to have made an error in your whitepaper concerning carbon emissions. You took the energy content of methane from your reference 19 (”14.4 metric tonnes carbon / TJ”) and converted it straight to 0.05184 g/Wh without applying the efficiency of the electric power plant or power distribution. Earlier you used an efficiency of 52.5% for well-to-outlet efficiency. If you apply that factor, then one gets roughly 0.1 g/Wh. Even this is misleading, because it starts with natural gas rather than the U.S. power grid, which is estimated to require 0.166 g/Wh of carbon emissions per Wh (the 1999 number is given as 1.341 pounds CO2 equivalent per KWh at tinyurl.com/el8tv, so one must convert CO2 to C). Using this number, the Tesla roadster actually has carbon emissions per km higher than the Honda Civic VX. Of course your California customers will see much lower CO2 emissions for the Teslas, because the California power mix produces power with much less greenhouse gas emissions. I suggest giving both the U.S. mix and California mix numbers in your whitepaper.
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Editor’s Answer: Thanks Earl - here is a response direct from Martin.
Interesting - there is a mistake in the white paper in that I used the carbon mass content of the source fuel when I should have used CO2 content. However, I made the same mistake for both oil and natural gas. This means that the absolute number of grams per kilometer is incorrect for all cars mentioned, but the relative values between the cars (whether oil-based or natural gas based) is correct.
There is no mistake in the whitepaper regarding efficiency - the efficiency of the generator and of the electric grid are accounted for in the well-to-wheel efficiency of the Roadster, as outlined on page 2 of the whitepaper.
Stepping through the logic:
First, we calculate the well-to-wheel efficiency of the electric car (in the first section on page 2) to be 1.14 kilometers driven per mega joule of natural gas consumed from the well.
Then we calculate the carbon content of natural gas at the well as 0.05184 grams per watt-hour, which equals 14.4 grams per mega joule
(remember that 1 Wh = 0.00359941 megajoules.)
Now, we compute:
(14.4 grams of Carbon per mega joule of natural gas) / (1.14 kilometers driven per mega joule of natural gas) = (12.6 grams of Carbon per kilometer driven)
Thus, the relative carbon (and therefore CO2) emissions in the whitepaper are correct, and the electric car has much, much lower emissions than any other car.
I will correct the whitepaper - either to convert carbon to CO2, or to change the references to carbon.
I still believe you need to show an estimate of the tons of CO2 per year required to charge the Tesla from the U.S. electric grid (and also the California grid, which is 3x better). Most of your customers don’t have a General Electric “H-System” generator in their garage available to charge their car from the utility natural gas line. If I use the 1.341 pounds of CO2 per KWH figure for the U.S. grid (1999), I get 2.1 short tons (0.110/0.86*1.609344*15000*1.341/2000) of CO2. Do you agree with this rough calculation? (It is still not directly comparable to the www.fueleconomy.gov numbers for other cars though, since those use ANL’s GREET 1.7 for CO2 equivalents, and they don’t even say whether they are metric or short tons.)
I am also curious about the 110 Wh/km number (128 Wh/km after the 86% battery subsystem efficiency). The corresponding number for the RAV4-EV is 27 KWh/100mi (city), and 34 KWh/100mi (highway) (these came from the window sticker on the car — presumably some government agency mandated such strange units). This gives 30.2 KWh/100mi combined city/highway (using the 55%/45% weighting). This converts to 302 Wh/mi, or 188 Wh/km. So you’re saying that the Tesla is 1.47x more efficient than the RAV4-EV. Does this seem about right to you? On the other hand, you claim 135MPG vs. their 112MPG, which is 1.21x. It seems a tad inconsistent. I think the answer would be to detail detail the 135 MPG calculation in your whitepaper. You have footnote 12 say it would be 400MPG if you followed the government’s lead or something, but you never show how you got 135 MPG.
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Editor’s Answer: Yes, we do believe the Roadster is much more efficient that the RAV4. The Roadster is a small, light, low profile, aerodynamic sportscar, while the RAV4 is an SUV.
I love it. I hope you guys come out with affordable version of these car in future. I hope GM or Ford or any car company dont buy out you guys.
Great car, great ideas, I suggest that one of the most important aspects of this technology is that it builds awareness and demand not only for alternate fuels and transportation but for longe rterm smarter approach to technology. The establishment of this technology and its development needs to act as a demonstartion to all industry (on an international basis) of what happens when ineffective buisness political and protectionist startergies are utilised (in outdated auto companies), namely they get overtaken by consumer demand.
I strongly advise that the ideas & vision presented by (a currently still small network of ) TESLA supporters be broadacst and promoted widely within and across the global community to those who wish for innovation to deliver better futures and cleaner lives. The promise of a future sustianable world, which sadly, despite your great efforts is still a dream and not as we may desire an imininent relaity. There is a hunger for this future which can be tapped as powerfully as a windmill taps natural energy that will drive not only the company’s future but be part of a wave. Please be brave and get the big long term plan out there more guys, you have nothing to loose, and friends to gain, best of luck.
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To the Editor,
The idea of the Roadster and the electric motor is great and all, but in the case of those that haul heavy loads, what are you designing for them. The horsepower needed to do these jobs can be overwhelming. Not to mention the torque needed to pull these heavy trailers. How will this electric motor withstand these conditions? For example: I haul hay about twice a day for about 550 miles. I don’t have time to be stopping for two and a half hours during the day to charge the truck (persay). How will this powerplant help the industry?
Sincerly,
Alex
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Editor’s Answer: The Editor would not recommend pulling a heavy trailer with a Tesla Roadster. Take a look at our secret business plan. You just never know.
The electric motor, a simple and efficient device, nothing new…Great torque, long lasting, simple and efficient…
Your truck, Tesla’s car and all the 600-800 million vehicles on Earth have a battery, electric motors and generators on board. Again, electric motors are nothing new…
The innovation here is the drivetrain! What a piece of art, two speeds, very little loss of energy…
Compare that to your truck with a motor or engine connected to a clutch, transmission, spinning drive shaft with differntial and other gears and/or half shafts or transfer cases…VERY inefficient, to many moving parts!
Electric motors have 2 or 3, automatic transmissions are like a liquid maze of parts where one pebble can destroy everything.
With heavy loads, think drivetrain, not just motor…
How much energy does you truck waste heating up the drivetrain on acceleration, braking and slowing down???
Hi…..i´m from Portugal.
First of all congratulations to your work…………you are an inspiration for all the people that not just think in a better future in terms of environment but also to those who like cars and particularly to those that love efficient and fast sports cars.
Here´s my question………is there any possibilities or are you thinking in showing the car at european auto events??
I am in highschool, and am doing a research paper on electric cars. More specifically, as the movie title states “who killed the electric car?” The research I have done so far has indicated that the future of electric cars doesn’t look very promising. That is, compared to the fuel cell research and its cheerleaders. Through an article in USA Weekend however, I came across your company and the car you created. I am glad to see that more progress is being made in the area of electric cars, especially by your company! Congratulations on making such progress in an area that is crucial to help save our environment.
One idea that hasn’t been mentioned for recharging.
Instead of gassing up at gas stations:
Charge up while eating at the restaurant.
You could get a bunch of charging done in 30 minutes - 1 hour for eating the meal.
In this way.. the battery needs to last only as long as someone can go without eating. For the average American… this isn’t very long!
Stop, charge, & see a movie.
Stop, charge, & play mini golf.
Charging times could help local economies!
Matt
People, lithium ALREADY charges fast, the problem is more one of capacity. A cell phone, or laptop, can charge to 80% capacity in 5 minutes, and finish off in another 5. New Lithium battery technologies advertise charging from flat to 100% in 5 minutes - Folks, that IS a gasoline fillup. Do charge a larger battery like the one in the Tesla, you merely need more wattage and probably charging hardware in the Tesla that can handle it.
We don’t need uber-long-range EVs, although I admit that would be incredible, we merely need commerical stations (such as gas stations) to offer super-high amperage charging.
People, lithium ALREADY charges fast, the problem is more one of capacity. A cell phone, or laptop, can charge to 80% capacity in 5 minutes, and finish off in another 5. New Lithium battery technologies advertise charging from flat to 100% in 5 minutes - Folks, that IS a gasoline fillup. Do charge a larger battery like the one in the Tesla, you merely need more wattage and probably charging hardware in the Tesla that can handle it.
We don’t need uber-long-range EVs, although I admit that would be incredible, we merely need commerical stations (such as gas stations) to offer super-high amperage charging.
The only unfortunate thing that I see is that, the model of “plugging in the car at night” seems to alienate a large market of people who are not home owners. I myself live in an Apartment complex, which poses a serious roadblock for any plans to get an electric car. Unless some type of rebate plans for apartment business owners to outfit there complexes with adequate charging outlets for tenants who own electric vehicles, trying to set something up otherwise would end up a fruitless endeavor. So my options become limited, either jump around and charge at sparcly located charging locations, or buy a house in order to facilitate my charging needs. Unfortately as much as I would like to buy a house, in the act of doing so would put me in a financial disposition (I live in LA), making it rather difficult to purchase a 100K$USD electric sports car. So for an apartment tenant like myself, the ability to go to a charging station and charge a 35Kwh pack in 10-minutes is more appealing. However I think any avenue of squeezing more out of the relative technologies, and researching other avenues that were never explored or immediately dismissed. There is still much to be explored with Nano materials, not only batteries, but photovoltaic paints as well. Imagine your cars paint job able to charge your batteries just by capturing visible and IR light spectrums. Its definitely going to be a very interesting future for EVs thats for sure.
I offer two ideas for longer term viability of your product, both having to do with different corporate partnerships and marketing.
First, though it was mentioned twice in this log (not in this way), you might consider a corporate partnership with a few large, sit-down restaurant chains–preferably ones that set up business next to interstate highways (e.g., Cracker Barrel, Olive Garden, etc.). Through some sort of corporate agreement, they provide a charging station (with customer-preferred parking in a special spot), then add the cost of the charge to your bill at checkout. If the movie “Who Killed The Electric Car” is correct, and an 80% charge can be regained in about an hour, then an 500 mi/day road trip would look like this (per day):
- First 200 miles from full charge (overnight) Save 50 mi to be prudent.
- Stop at Cracker Barrel for breakfast, 1 hour. Charge back to ~210 miles capacity.
- Drive 160 miles. Save 50 mi to be prudent.
- Eat lunch at Olive Garden, 1 hour. Charge back to ~180 miles capacity.
- Drive 140 miles, and take some sight-seeing in along the way. Save a few miles for city driving to find the Hyatt (or some other hotel that offers charging). At average highway speeds (~70 mph) this is a 10-12 hr day of driving. Charge up overnight, begin again the next day.
The neat thing about the corporate agreement is that ultra-competitive industries (like restaurants) are always looking for an edge. They could boast their “green-ness” and also attract more customers (who wouldn’t want to go out for dinner and possibly see the car of the future parked outside while they wait the obligatory 35 minutes for a seat). You totally end-round the oil companies.
Second, another log entry alluded to this when mentioning the ‘first owner to drive across country.’ Why not set up an agreement with an organization like NASCAR (or start your own) to race EVs in a stock-car format. We all know that NASCAR is where the auto industry does its testing–and they get paid to do it! Same thing, only you now start to grow interest in the Southeast US and Mid-Atlantic, traditional NASCAR regions. Convince the Indy 500 to let your vehicle be the official pacecar. Do a tongue-in-cheek ‘Cannonball Run’ promotion. Whatever it takes. All I know is, the day one of my redneck neighbors tells me he’s packing the wife and kids into the extend-o-cab F-150 for ‘dega (Talladega) to go watch ‘those funky quiet cars’ race–I’ll know you’ve got market penetration.
In the meantime, do not give up! Do not sell out! I’ve dreamed of driving an EV since boyhood, and I’m not about to settle for a ‘Johnny Cab’ (from the movie ‘Total Recall’).
Ah…So sad to see all the negativity regarding the Eestor ultracapacitor. And to think 80 something years ago Nikola Tesla was reciving similar criticisim for claims that where regarded to be to “far out” by the scientific community of the time…
As they say, history repeats itself
Accessorize with a fuel cell hook-up that charges the car over night and also powers the home. Sell the excess power back to the power companies and drive for free.
Hello,my name is michael lewis and i have got an idea for you.I can show you a way to get infinite driving range with out a plug in or other discussed avenues for a recharge.no bull ,no joking.I have sat on my idea for five years or longer.because,(1) im too poor to afford the necessary tools and hardware,(2)cant afford to patent,(3)i have contacted many of the major manufacturers during layoffs etc. ,but no one got back to me.(4)im still searching for the one that wants my idea to work, not for me but for the world!is that person you? All I want is a car or two and a % of proceeds for my kids college,and a fund for my other inventionsas well as other peoples,like a foundation for inventors to make ideas a reality. HONEST TO GOD I CAN INCREASE YOUR MILEAGE TO THE LIFE OF THE ELECTRIC MOTOR OR UNTIL…………………………………. NEEDS REPLACED.PLEASE CONTACT ME.
if the Tesla had two engines of 100 hp each instead of one of 200 hp would it have a significantly longer range? I.E if 1 engine was activated at low speeds or accelerations and both worked when vigourously accelerating or going at above 35 mph.
Don:
No. That’s the great thing about electric motors; the bigger they are, the more efficient they are. Also, if you only put in half the current, you get half the torque (roughly), and half the battery drain. So you just make it put less electricity in when you don’t need to accelerate. Putting in 2 125 HP motors would make each one less efficient, it would take more weight and room, and it would make the electronics more complicated, with no real benefit.
I realize I have no degree or any real knowlege to back this up but I had a thought when reading into how you use the energy created from braking to recharge the batteries. Thinking along the lines of advancing technologies and forces applied to cars when driving I was wondering if you had ever concidered an air - intake recharging system to extend range. Simply put could use use some sort of air intake combined with a type of windmill like generator to allow some of the air rushing by the car to be turned into wind energy to lengthen battery life. I realize I have no expertise in the subject and that sticking with your keep it simple stupid motto the extra weight and complexity of such a system may not be worth the potentially anemic amount of energy you could get from it. But its just an idea.
As an edit to my post above I wanted to add my thought on the air intake would be also only be activated when braking or not-accelerating times when the drag from the system would be affecting the efficiency of the engine. I’m thinking about the road trip idea here, for when you let go of the accelerator and start to roll, the small amount of drag from air intake would not slow the car that much compared the momentum the car has moving forward with no propulsion. It works on the same principle as the break re-charging allowing your car to gain energy during the multitude of moments on a long journey when it is not trying to put out energy. (I felt I needed to add this due to a post about how drag ultimately would negate the use of any generator to help sustain a longer battery life)
like to see it on aust roads
Quick charging stations for electric vehicles actually help to solve a big fundamental problem in sustainable electricity production: variation of power output.
Charge stations can act as power sinks during peak supply of solar and wind power, and sources during off-hours and peak demand, which will enable a higher penetration of renewable sources of energy without requiring additional use of fossil fuels for supply balancing like they do at the moment.
The charging stations can incorporate existing technologies that are already suitable for use in the power grid, such as vanadium redox flow batteries (check wikipedia on this) that are relatively cheap and have virtually infinite life in the kind of use, and newer generations of the technology hold a promise for ever increasing energy density at lower prices. The additional nice thing about a vanadium battery is that if it runs out of juice, you can recharge it by changing the liquids, thus you can provide power for a disconnected neighborhood simply by driving it there on a truck.
The energy density of flow batteries is currently too low for automobile use, but almost perfect for “gas stations” for electric cars, at about 25 kWh per cubic meter. They can supply high power which means they can be easily used to charge a car quickly at several hundred kilowatts if needed. The biggest limit is in how much your batteries can take in. You can get a 20 kWh charge in 5 minutes at 240 kW, which gets you about 60 miles down the road. The topping charge from 85% and upwards has to be done more slowly, which means you can’t fill it entirely on a quick charge.
If happens theres another movie for the fast and the furious, this is it! for sure, Mr Paul walker is going to love this. lol.
Re TH!NK eletctric car
carsguide.news.com.au/site/motoring-news/story/thnk_australia_needs_an_electric_car/
some of us are confused about batteries so i did some research
. Their energy per weight is through the roof aka energy density but their energy volume has always been horrible, it takes a capacitor the size of a beer can to power a flashlight for a minute. In recent years this technology has greatly improved though and since there aren’t any chemicals to carry, just pure electricity, theyre much lighter. They can also recharge much faster since you’re simply storing an electrice field, not splitting lithium compounds back into their reactants. Also capacitors or “super capacitors” dont involve chemical reactions they also likely run cooler and are safer in the odd event of something going wrong if ever. Although to my knowledge, capacitors have face numerous problems and conflicts in their advancement but it is likely these can be overcame eventually. Point blank as long as batteries are relying on chemical reactions there will always be a maximum point to their energy density. Chemical reactions can only go so far. If nothing else you could make one hell of a camera flash with a car full of capacitors.
basically batteries are stored electricity, this store is measured in 1.how much/rate over time/hours so you end up with 1kilowatt for xhours
the tesler roadster i believe uses 44kwh lithium ion batteries which use chemical reactions to produce electricity aka you have to carry the chemicals which dont contribute to energy production. Another type of battery is the capacitor…..in the past capacitors have been used to hold alot of energy but only for very short times such as a camera flash, engine start, shocking toys