I love Tesla Motors. All the electric car nay-sayers have nothing now.

And as for the batteries, I wanted to know if Tesla Motors was open to changing their storage system, should some revolutionary new technology come about. For example, the company EEstor claims to have built a super capacitor capable of storing 52 kwhr of energy in a 400 pound pack. Two of those would give the Tesla Roadster a range of 500 miles+, cut the weight of it by 200 pounds, could be recharged as fast as the power source would allow, and it would never have to be replaced.

www.teslamotorsclub.com www.electricperformance.com
Visit these two websites for more discussion on electric cars and tesla motors.

I think the ethanol idea is probably being pushed by the corn industry and american car industry so they dont have to change much.

It’s possible lowering battery weight would actually not make the roadster faster. Less weight over the rear tires would cause them to lose traction earlier. It could very well be (I don’t know for sure) that the roadster is already limited (like the T-Zero is) in acceleration because the traction control has to constantly keep the tires from breaking loose.

Glad someone is doing the true research behind all this ethanol hype. Regarding your motor technology, have you considered “wheel motors” as a potential technology to utilize for your sedan project? These wheels essentially have a motor built right into them, eliminating the need for any transmission, and increasing the motor efficiency. TM4 - www.tm4.com/eng/tm4transport/moto_wheelmotor/ - has a model of this technology that claims to be 96.3% efficient, with peak power of 107hp, and they say other models are also available. Seems like two of these paired could act as a front wheel drive system for a sedan, providing ample acceleration and maximum efficiency by eliminating any transmission losses.

Thanks for listening, keep up the great work.

Daniel Sacks, I guess the question is whether anyone has given Elon a new boombox lately…

Hey! I wanted to throw this in here before it gets buried in the comments—

Are there any plans to offer Roadsters with vertical doors (you know, the lambo-esque showstoppers)? And with the layout and door design, would it be even possible?

—-

Editor’s Answer: No and no.

During your Roadster debut, you’ve mentioned that some of the major players in the auto industry (Ford, Toyota, Honda?) came to “checkout” your car. What was the nature of their visit? Were they merely checking out the car or did they have other business interests?

If a company like Honda were to express a very serious interest in partnering with you in terms of developing a mass market, entry level car, is this something you would consider or are you planning on going solo all the way?

Greg is definitely correct about the acceleration: Google the Wrightspeed or look it up on youtube for a demo. 0-60 in less than 3.0s almost exclusively because of lighter weight. The engineer who designed the car used to work at Tesla.

While I think the electric car is our best hope to reduce our dependence on oil (not ethanol or hydrogen) I’m not sure this exact design will work. Lithium isn’t the most plentiful element (check out minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/), though production could be increased dramatically, especially in Bolivia as the Salar de Uyuni contains huge quantities of lithium and they are still shovelling the salt into trucks by hand (as I saw personally, earlier this year!). I don’t think there is enough lithium to make billions of the 18650 cells/year, which a full switch over would require. Lithium is over $40/lb while the most expensive ingredients in the EEStor capacitor are almost an order of magnitude cheaper. Even if EEStor has trouble with the size or price they are currently using (336 lbs and ~$3000 for 52kWh), they could easily double or even triple the weight and cost while still outperforming the current Li-ion.

In response to Elon Musk’s comments: yep, you got that halibuting right, alright! (as opposed to haliburtoning).Plenty of reasons for “some people” to like ethanol & gas: namely, you gotta keep buying the stuff, forever-and “they” love that concept . So the mainstream media never says much about solar-and we know why. I read once that you could power the whole U.S. using solar off of just part of the land on the Nevada test site. That would be the best solar generation site in the country, hands down-and the land isn’t being used for much anymore. Talk about maximm sunshine potential! Yep: solar is it, alright-one way or another, combined with the fuel cell at night too. It looks like “nanosolar “is on the way also.It’s our mission (”should we decide to accept it”) to not forget it either-because the abovementioned “they” sure don’t want it on our “cultural agenda”-might be bad for business (”as usual”).

I’m a market Economist and I hope that when the price listing has been released it’s affordable enough to capture the market share of the auto industry. Your company has come at a great time to win over the the American people
since gas prices are at an all time high. I’m also in the USN Submarine Service and I’m glad to see that a civilian company has step forward to help us off the dependence of middle eastern oil. Plus for GOD sakes make this product affordable, in the short run it may seem like a lost ,but in the long run your company will be cemented in our lives and pocket books hahahaha.

The solar panel idea is definitely a step in the right direction. Like Brandon wrote earlier I have to wonder how much such a beast would cost. Think about how large 10′x15′ is compared to the solar panels you see on some homes today. Then again people we can afford 100k for a great sports car probably won’t be as concerned as many of us.

On another note I am glad Tesla is taking some time to help spread the word that ethanol is not the answer to all our oil problems. Also with all the hype around Dell and Apple recalling their lith-ion batteries adding some safety talk was much needed. =)

Discuss these issues further:
www.teslatalk.com .

In response to BSS about the solar shingles, they already exist. A company called Uni-Solar makes them. They’ve got a 20-year power output warrenty, but I don’t know how long they will actually last. I would hope that 20 years from now, the efficiency of photovoltaics will have advanced enough to make it worthwhile to replace the whole thing.

I saw a comment about corn-based ethanol on another site that was so unlikely that I spent most of a morning tracking down data and cranking numbers. Start with 20 bushels of corn. Give half of it to an average person for food and half of it to an ethanol plant. Ignore little things like corn lacking certain amino acids, the oil burned to make ethanol, etc.

Net results: Food for a year vs 25 gallons of ethanol!

I’d love to do solar and have a perfect exposure. Unfortunately, I live in the pacific north west and solar is a complete waste of money here. Worked great in when I lived in Tucson, AZ though.

I’m certain that when a better storage technology is available commercially, Tesla will be happy to use it. Until then, where is my Lithium-ion electric 4-wheel drive sub-compact station wagon?

# Milos wrote on September 7th, 2006 at 12:16 am
# Re alternative battery/capacity technologies, I see EEstor and others mentioned all the time, but what I haven’t seen at all is MIT’s entry - nanotube utlracaps

If you go back to earlier blog pages you will find them listed.

EEstor is getting more attention because they seem very close to production, wheras the MIT stuff is a ways off and could have some uncertain production complications.

Along with Ultracaps set to suppliment or even displace Li-Ion there are parallel breakthroughs with solar panels happening.
For instance, check out these guys:
www.nanosolar.com/
www.nanosolar.com/technology.htm

I just bought solar panels for my house and they are the “traditional” silicon based solid, thick panels that are proven and have been in use for decades. The “printed” flat, flexible non-silicon panels are expected to start appearing and replacing traditional silicon panels in coming years.

I fully expect that in 10 years, the environmental solution will be flexible/flat/printed solar panels and ultracapacitor based vehicles… Unless someone has miscalculated how easy to produce, and reliable these technologies end up being.

Silicon solars cells and NiMH/Li-Ion is fairly well proven and known now.

I think we have to see some “years of service on a mass scale” before we know for sure if the newer technologies are better in every way.

Sometimes a “better” technology doesn’t work out because it turns out to be hard to manufacture, is unreliable long term, runs into materials shortages or gets tied up in some sort of patent dispute. Time will tell. There always seems to be something better just around the corner.

GilliganLQ, yep, there are several companies that make them, but they usually cost $5 to $8/watt. If they get down to $2 to $4/watt, then solar would become much easier to adopt. Most have a 20 or 25 year warranty.

I disagree with Harry on the “payback” issue, as plenty of people are willing to pay $300 or $400 per month for a car, so if the reduced cost of electricity makes up for the difference in the loan versus the price of gas, they can afford. The challenge would be getting them to see it like that. Of course, at today’s volumes and costs, the price isn’t there yet, but it will be. As for a car that looks good and can haul four adults, that’s no challege at all. The Tesla drivetrain produces more than enough torque and horsepower to put in any sedan out there, drastically improving fuel economy in any of them.

Have you considered using the targa panel as an additional energy source when the car is parked outside?

One thought on how ethanol might be useful: Install an alcohol-fuel-cell trickle charger in an electric car, to reduce the load on the battery or recharge while parked in places where recharging is inconvenient. That would extend the range of the vehicle. And it would give fueling stations some role in the future, hopefully making them less inclined to lobby the government to undermine EVs.

I’ve got a question: if ultracapacitors can charge in minutes instead of hours, what does this mean for their potential combined with solar panels? Does this mean they can store sun energy more efficiently-and would be perfect for storing solar energy for night use? Speaking of solar-a company called Local Power ( of Oakland, Ca.) is working with San Francisco to, within 12 yrs., have over half of Frisco’s power come from “green power”- over next 3 yrs, the city will invest over a billion dollars in solar power-placed on hundreds of public & private rooftops. Phase I of this program will put 31 MW of solar on rooftops (equal to 200-300 supermarket sized rooftops)-with fuel cells below the bigger installations. I wonder also about the electric airplane-remember the Beechcraft “Starship” plane ?-now there was a fast, beautiful prop plane. WWII prop fighters had speeds of about 500 mph, a 737 jet doesn’t cruise much faster. Someone (as in Tesla?) should look into the design of super propellers. Honda is coming out with their small commuter jet, with their own jet engine. With the price of jet fuel, a “Tesla Super-Prop” plane seems to be in order-with design work by Burt Rutan (but of course). “Just ” need to get those aero-engineers on the case of a prop design- maybe there’s something new out there that could advance the design. What’s the weight of jet fuel compared to what lith-ion (or the projected better batteries being worked on) would be?If a Tesla roadster goes 250 miles, how far could a Tesla small plane go? If ultracapacitors pan out maybe we could even get the lousy diesel truck off the road some day-not to mention scrapping the CNG bus.

For a bit of fun, I looked over the numbers in the battery white paper.

(approx) 6800 batteries, of the 18650 form-factor type, probably ~2000mAh capacity each (running at 3.7V).

Looks like they’d weigh about 300Kg in total - of the 450Kg for the whole pack. So, 2/3rds of the weight of the battery system are the batteries themselves, with the rest being cooling, multiple levels of physical and electrical safety, lots of wires, sensors and other bits.

Best price I could find for them was $4.27 each in a pack - or total cost of $29,207. I’m sure Tesla would get a good volume discount though…

I was under the impression that the groundbreaking research on nano capacitor type batteries was mostly being done at MIT. Maybe I misunderstand the patent situation, but others claim to be well along in this area as well. Toshiba for example claims to have already developed a nano lithium ion battery. All the better I guess in hopes of low prices.

www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2005_03/pr2901.htm

“The company’s new battery can recharge 80% of a battery’s energy capacity in only one minute, approximately 60 times faster than the typical lithium-ion batteries in wide use today, and combines this fast recharge time with performance-boosting improvements in energy density… Toshiba will bring the new rechargeable battery to commercial products in 2006. Initial applications will be in the automotive and industrial sectors, where the slim, small-sized battery will deliver large amounts of energy while requiring only a minute to recharge.”

Exciting stuff, guys. Between nanosolar devices, and nano lithium ion batteries, it looks like nanotech is not a bad place to be at in the evolution of transport energy.

The only thing Tesla have going against them now are dropping petrol prices.

As has been mentioned in previous threads, the key problem with fast-charge batteries and even faster-charge ultracaps is the inability of most existing infrastructure to support the necessarily huge energy flows that would occur during a fast-charge cycle. In other words, even with today’s batteries, time to charge seems limited mostly by how quickly the infrastructure can supply electrons to the battery, rather than by how quickly the battery can receive them. If we had the fabled ultracaps RIGHT NOW, it would still take hours to charge them at your house.

Presumably, commercial charging stations would have the “big pipe” and heavy-duty connection apparatus, which would be necessary to accommodate quick-charging within an acceptable range of time and safety. But until such stations are as ubiquitous as gas stations are now, EV owners will have to charge using home wall-current (very slow), or special taps on the main line (somewhat faster). The power-storage system needs to offer:

1. High energy-to-weight ratio for maximum range on a full charge
2. Ability to accept “partial charges” and “top offs” without such degradation as NiCad “memory effects,” etc.
3. High retention of charge when idle (to minimize the expense of redundant charging).

The vehicle itself needs to be very stingy about watt-hours, not only to maximize the overall range of the vehicle, but also to allow for maximum mileage from whatever can go into the battery during a few minutes or an hour spent plugged into wall current. For the car to be considered as convenient as an ICE vehicle, you always need to have enough “miles in the battery” to get you to a place where you can put the car in charge mode for an extended period — or be able to put those miles into the battery by spending just the few minutes you would otherwise spend filling up your gasoline vehicle.

I would propose an important usability rating: expected miles per minute of charging with standard wall power.

In Reply to James,

I think there’s a difference between infrastructure and end user hardware. Fast charging doesn’t necessarily require a whole new wiring system, or new wires to be run on the poles or underground.

If Capacitors work in the car then you could build a garage or station based Capacitor feed station that built up charge slowly and dumped it into the auto capacitor fast. No holes would need to be dug, no delivery problems, no vast nationwide public expense would be associated with creating fast charging stations. Private industry would supply when the demand is there.

Even if it did take a new wiring system in a house or station I wouldn’t consider it an infrastructure change because the delivery of the electricity would still be through existing wires. You could hook up anywhere that existing wires run.

Anyone care to tackle and post a comparison of the conventional 6800 Li-Ion (18650’s) batteries that are in the Roadster now vs. the A123 Systems M1 Nano-battery? Is there enough information out there to do such a comparison? Not familiar with the formulas that provide kwh, kilowatts, volts, assuming all other variables were constant (weight of the vehicle, number of cells, etc.)
How much better would an M1 based pack be in a Tesla Roadster ( range, estimated charge time, etc) ? I know… they’d still have to be tested to the extreme and priced accordingly, but I’m still curious.

Thanks EE’s, probably a simple calculation for ya, so get to formulating!

James Anderson Merritt wrote on September 8th, 2006 at 10:58 am
As has been mentioned in previous threads, the key problem with fast-charge batteries and even faster-charge ultracaps is the inability of most existing infrastructure to support the necessarily huge energy flows that would occur during a fast-charge cycle. In other words, even with today’s batteries, time to charge seems limited mostly by how quickly the infrastructure can supply electrons to the battery, rather than by how quickly the battery can receive them. If we had the fabled ultracaps RIGHT NOW, it would still take hours to charge them at your house.

James if the fast-charge batteries or ultra-caps were incorporated into a home charger, they could charge during the time the car was not connected to the charger, and then zap the car in a few minutes once it connects, although this would call for 2 sets of batteries or ultra-caps, one in the car and one in the charger at home.

OK, fine, the infrastructure is not in place for ultracapactiors or batteries. That seems pretty irrelavent. I mean, a gas station could become compatible in a matter of DAYS. It is like saying that electronics stores in the 70’s didn’t have a shelf big enough for a plasma TV. Well, they order a new shelf. As best as I can tell, every gas station in the country has power lines running to it. Additionally, they can easily hook up to a much higher power supply that the average house. Heck, the average house can as well. But the cost to do so would be prohibitive for the house, not the full time gas/electric station. With the new POTENTIAL technologies the problem is not infrastructure; those are simple problems. The problem is whether any of this technology can be had for a reasonable price and provide the necessary range. At 250 miles, how difficult is it, really, to plug the car in at the end of the day? Virtually every house in the US is capable of 220V, 30 amp power, or about 8 hr recharge time for a fully drained battery. Who drives more than this in a normal work day? If you do, then you can fill up at the service station. If electric cars with fast charging capability were to reach mass production, then the service station upgrade would not be anymore expensive than putting in a new pump. With the new POTENTIAL technologies the problem is not infrastructure; those are simple problems. The problem is whether any of this technology can be produced for a reasonable price and provide the necessary range and weight.

Greg Woulf said, In Reply to James,

“I think there’s a difference between infrastructure and end user hardware. Fast charging doesn’t necessarily require a whole new wiring system, or new wires to be run on the poles or underground.

“If Capacitors work in the car then you could build a garage or station based Capacitor feed station that built up charge slowly and dumped it into the auto capacitor fast. No holes would need to be dug, no delivery problems, no vast nationwide public expense would be associated with creating fast charging stations. Private industry would supply when the demand is there.

“Even if it did take a new wiring system in a house or station I wouldn’t consider it an infrastructure change because the delivery of the electricity would still be through existing wires. You could hook up anywhere that existing wires run.”

From the point of view of a homeowner, and especially of an apartment-dwelling renter, the building and its wiring are infrastructure. If the building wiring cannot accommodate quick-charge, then you have to work your way back to tap in at a point (and through a sufficient conduit/connector) to do the job. It requires effort and money, and if it requires more upfront money from the consumer than he is willing to spend, the whole proposition is a non-starter.

I understand that redundant batteries/ultracaps and high-capacity couplings between them and the Tesla would provide for true quickcharge at home even with limited wiring options, or might allow “EV service stations on the cheap” to proliferate more quickly than they might otherwse. But remember, infrastructure isn’t just the wiring. It’s also the mechanisms and methods for safety during “restocking” of the local energy supply, or refueling individual vehicles. It makes more sense for special service stations to invest in the safety measures that are necessary to handle large amounts of electric energy safely, not to mention the additional, redundant batteries or capacitors. Why extend this obligation to the home, much less stick the consumer with the bill for it? As I see it, it’s enough that the Tesla battery pack and recharge access are over-designed for safety. Plug the car into the wall and wait however long it takes, or drive down to the nearest quick-charge station (which will initially be few in number) and do it there.

BUT, what happens when your battery is nearly depleted, and you need just a few miles of charge to get you somewhere you want or need to be? How long will it take to get that much charge when you are plugged into the wall? THAT’s a performance figure it would be worthwhile (perhaps essential) to know.

I don’t think that some “vast nationwide public expense” would be required to build out EV infrastructure. I certainly hope that such large expenditures will NOT be necessary, and that the EV industry will build itself out at its own proper rate, as the business model and its economics make sense. While I don’t think that some major government program (ala the Governator’s H2 Highway) WILL be necessary — and would indeed oppose such a program! — I also don’t think that growth at normal economic rates will build out a service station network immediately. I think that low-capacity “wall charging” will be a fact of life for many people for many years. Given that assumption, the designs of EVs and the characteristics of the EV business model must alllow the EV to thrive anyway. This is one reason why I don’t begrudge Tesla their high asking price. The income of the EV industry will have to offset a fair number of initial “start-up” problems; the vendors won’t be able to survive by low-balling at the outset.

This car has some of the same features as the FORD GT any chance that you are gonna use the same platform that it was built on? (not a bad idea if it is cause the chassis and body only weigh around 700 lbs.) And has there been any talks as to who will assemble it. The factory that i work at just wrapped up the final GT just the other day. Let us know………………thanks chris

—-

Editor’s Surprise: Have you read the FAQ?

What is your relationship with Lotus?
Lotus Cars is assembling the Tesla Roadster under contract to Tesla Motors. Tesla Motors has also hired Lotus Engineering for certain design and engineering tasks. The Tesla Roadster style was developed in Lotus Engineering’s design studio - Lotus Engineering won a design contest where several design firms submitted proposals. Lotus Engineering supplied the initial chassis which was significantly modified by Tesla Motors engineers.

Anthony brought us to the topic of scooters. For those 2-wheel loving individuals, where do you see an electric motorcycle fitting in? Currently is the space requirement for batteries, motor, cooling/heating, electronics too big of a package to fit for a decent range?

As a P.S. to the above: the Tesla people/backers should think of investing in the company being set up by that recent MIT grad who’s doing the flying car-with the bi-folding wings:very nice Supposed to cost about $150,000- make an elect. version of that -now we’re talikng!

True, unless there would be some ethanol producing bacteria… Maybe airplanes could use ethanol … they won’t fly on battery … or do they? On the other hand the electric car lost the race 100 years ago, maybe we the people are silly enough to support the bigger industry again and Brazil will chop the entire rainforest … what they would do anyways, they have to grow hamburgers. However … the next car I buy will be either battery or flexfuel. Give me a choice.

For those of you in a hurry to get your hands on an EV that will do 0 - 60 in 4 seconds, check out this site. Only $108,000 too!

www.hammacher.com/publish/10954.asp?source=NEWS3806&cm_ven=WC&cm_cat=20060907_News38&cm_pla=BYR&cm_ite=10954_120mph_Electric_Car

The range is about 60 -80 miles . . . but about 6 weeks delivery!

Oops! Correcting my previous post: After re-reading the battery safety white paper, I see that the sheets are not CONTROLLED by the micros, just monitored. Still, if a micro glitches and reports a false fault in the sheet, does everything shut down? Reboot? I understand that this is not a safety issue. Nonetheless, fault tolerant and self recovering code would add to the perception of enhanced safety, IMHO.
And, while I’m correcting myself, a dormant brain cell kicked in and I remembered something about high voltage semiconductors, (re: my previous post concern about ultracaps, their kV operating range, and motor controllers), and diesel locomotives ( my specialty was not power design). A little searching turned up a gate controlled thyristor capable of handling 6kV/5kA. It’s kinda big, 5 inches in diameter, but it apparantly exists. I don’t know how efficient a high voltage motor contoller it would make but, theoretically, it sounds possible to design one. My other conerns remain, however.
To BSS - Inserting a dc-dc converter between the 3.5kV ultracap and the motor controller does not solve the high breakdown voltage semiconductor issue because the dc-dc converter semiconductors would be exposed to the high voltage. Besides, the dc-dc converter efficiency would eat into your total energy capacity right off the top, say, 15-20% or more.

Roger L. said: Having said that, however, I must say that I flinched when I read that the “Sheets” are monitored and controlled by microprocessors. Now, we all know what happens when the “blue screen of death” appears on our monitor and the computer is in never neverland.

Cars these days already have a lot of computer monitoring and controls - and microprocessors. For parts critical to the operation, they would be VERY well tested, and use microprocessors validated to much better durability than PC processors. Microsoft’s bloatware isn’t especially reliable and the security’s even worse - and don’t blame “popularity” for that, since mobile phones significantly outsell PCs and they don’t have anything remotely close to the same problems. Basically, problems with PCs are generally caused by poorly written software (not that anybody does bug free or perfectly secure software). Perhaps the most common hardware problem is the PSU (ie mains to DC transformer), since a poor PSU can cause subtle damage to other components.

As a related note, I saw in the battery paper that it seems the monitoring software uses simple threshhold limits to determine errors - nothing wrong with that, but there are better solutions:
research.sun.com/minds/2004-1007/
research.sun.com/sunlabsday/docs.2004/talks/1.03_Gross.pdf
www.dtic.mil/ndia/2006electronic_prognostic/gross.pdf

The above describes some advanced real-time monitoring Sun Microsystems do on their own servers, using advanced pattern recognision, multiple sensors, and lots of profiling to help (a) explain why something might have failed and (b) predict that something looks likely to fail before it actually does and so off-line it because it can possibly cause damage. Components generally don’t suddenly die for no reason - they often degrade slightly before failing. One thing brought up in the above papers is that sensors can also fail - they may have higher failure rates than the components they’re monitoring.

#
Greg Woughter wrote on September 8th, 2006 at 9:20 pm

I don’t want to be contradictory but the electrical infrastructure exists already. Go to any working outlet and stick a butter knife in the slot and you’ll see.

===

In response to GW: Obviously we are talking about people charging up their vehicles at home, so there is THAT much of an infrastructure. But saying that the home wiring is an infrastructure that exists already in support of EVs is akin to saying that a network of dirt roads is an existing infrastructure that supports the shipment of goods via commercial trucks. Yes, it can, to a point, but not nearly in the same way, or with the same volume or reliability, that wide, well-paved highways can.

#
Greg Woughter wrote on September 8th, 2006 at 9:20 pm

I don’t see having a home charging station as sticking it to the customer. There’s no way in heck that I want to pay someone else to plug my car in. Not when I can, like the roadster, get out of the car and plug it in the wall. I’m astonished that anyone would even think of wanting to pay another Exon to do something as simple as plugging into an outlet.

Chargers will not be expensive, no way, no how. They’re too simple. Without any weight constraints there’s not even any engineering challenges present in setting up a safe charger.

===

In response to GW: Not wanting to be contradictory, but these sound like the words of someone who hasn’t spent much time around high voltage, high-current equipment. Big transformers, circuit breakers, and insulators are expensive. Maybe mass production or technological breakthroughs yet to come will lower the cost, but maybe not. This equipment is also very dangerous. If you doubt that, I’ll hand you the butter knife: go over and don’t even bother sticking the butter knife in an outlet. Simply extend your arm close to the high-tension wire or coupling fixtures while standing on barely damp ground. Chances are, you won’t even have to make actual contact with the electrical apparatus to get a good zapping — the electricity will obligingly arc over to the butter-knife, and through you to the ground. Nice chatting with you.

Some people here have suggested that home chargers could provide a quick-charge feature by incorporating a redundant battery pack or a huge ultracapacitor, which would charge continuously from the normal home main, at leisure, but be able to transfer its charge immediately to the Tesla’s battery pack, on demand. That would, however, mean paying for the extra charge repository. Estimates of the cost of a replacement battery pack have tended to exceed $10000. How would a necessary extra expense of that magnitude NOT be sticking it to the consumer?

You might very well want to pay someone who had the proper equipment and took the proper precautions to quick-charge your Tesla — certainly a few extra pennies per charge would be a better deal than paying $10K or more upfront for a fast home-charging unit. However, I would expect that you might even pay the same or less at a commercial station as you would at home, given that the commercial charging station would be able to command the very lowest wholesale rates for the electricity it sold to you. On the other hand, if you had a private garage or carport, and a charging outlet that could be locked against unauthorized use (not everyone does) you might be perfectly satisfied to charge your car only during your own “downtime,” at a slower pace.

From some comments that seem to have been posted in response to points I have raised, I get the feeling that some people may think I am antagonistic to the Tesla or EVs in general. I am not. I want the Roadster and follow-on models to succeed. From what I have personally seen, and all that I have heard and read, I would love to own and drive one of these vehicles. BUT, that said, I think the best chances for success will come from thinking realistically, dealing squarely with the realities of physics and economics, and the state of today’s technology, and trying to get a clear idea of how these cars will fit into people’s lives, or conversely, how people’s lives will (need to) change whenever a Tesla-class EV replaces an ICE. The point is to anticipate as many potential points of failure (or customer dissatisfaction) as possible, then make sure that the problems are solved — or at least mitigated — ahead of time, the better to turn a customer’s frown into the smile that says, “these guys are on top of it, and I’m happy I bought one of their products.”

Bill passed extending California solo carpool lane privileges for hybrid owners (now through 2011 rather than 2007):

info.sen.ca.gov/pub/bill/asm/ab_2551-2600/ab_2600_bill_20060828_amended_sen.html

Note - that bill extends for hybrids only. What about electric vehicles? I think they still expire at the end of 2007.

Comparing “6800 Li-Ion (18650’s) batteries that are in the Roadster now vs. the A123 Systems M1 Nano-battery?”

Power density: no difference - battery pack size, weight and range would be identical.
Power delivery: Much higher, but the Roadster is already doing 0-60 in 4 seconds.
Battery life: A123 claims 10x, but if you read more closely, it’s only 1000 cycles vs 500.
Charge time: 5 minutes vs 5 hours. Downside, the charger would require a 3,000 amp 240 volt service. Most houses in the US are being built with 250 amp 240 volt. 0000 guage wire can handle 300 amps. it’s 0.46 inches in diameter. Obviously, the fast charger would require connection to 2300 volt primary distribution lines. Not a problem for commercial charging stations, bad idea for houses.
Availability: Good question, the only current products are small packs for the R/C model airplane crowd.
Pricing: No clues

Looks like a good product, but it has no track record. Not what you want in a production vehicle.

www.nanotechbuzz.com/50226711/nanotechnology_research_funding_up_venture_capital_down.php

Blogger at the above link suggests that Tesla will be using Altair Nano batteries in the production cars next year. Is there any truth to this?

Great post. Glad to hear you guys are investing in solar power.

When you get around to establishing dealerships in Florida… forget about Miami, and concentrate on Orlando. Orlando is centrally located near the center of the state whereas Miami is stuck off down in one corner of the state and a great distance away from several major population centers such as Tampa, Jacksonville, Orlando, and St. Petersburg.

James Anderson Merritt wrote “If we had the fabled ultracaps RIGHT NOW, it would still take hours to charge them at your house. … EV owners will have to charge using home wall-current (very slow), or special taps on the main line (somewhat faster).”

Mr. Merritt’s concern is one shared by many who post here, and I agree that it would be wonderful to recharge an electric car as quickly as to refuel a gas or diesel vehicle.

BUT: I’ve got all night long to use the cheapest electricity from the grid to charge the car. Unless you drive more than 5 or 6 hours a day in the Tesla, what is the hurry to charge?

Congratulations on your progress so far. I can’t wait to spot the Roadsters cruising around the Bay Area. Tesla Motors has the right approach to solving our imported oil dependency and the resultant green house gas effects.

I would ask you to consider taking the product up a green notch or two, if not for the initial sales ramp then for the next phase. What I am suggesting is getting off petroleum altogether by using biobased lubricants.

Right now there are proven replacements for

transmission oil
gear oil
extreme pressure grease
lock oil

These products are currently in use by the Army, Coast Guard and National Park Service.
They are priced less than synthetics and the performance is actually as good or better than synthetics. Plus you get complete biodegradability for any leakage to the environment.

Imagine the PR value of being the first to offer a truly green car.

Fantastic blog you guys, lots of posts and links that have renewed my hope about our energy problems. I’ll say that if I had the money I would definately be on board for an EV (right now I think an electric scooter is about all I could swing.) With regards to some of the points James Anderson Merritt was making… I think the future of “refueling” EVs would look much like whats going on with Biodiesel. There are some who have gone the extra step of getting themselves kits to “make” their own Biodiesel. They pay less for fuel by converting free used vegetable oil into diesel. The idea seems romantically independant of oil companies (although your now dependant on local fast food joints), but really it just isn’t worth the effort and time for me. For me I would rather leave the “fast charging” of an EV to better equipped “gas” stations when I was on extended trips, and I would just put up with the normal slow charging at home. Getting equipment to provide a 5 minute charge at home just simply wouldn’t be worth it for me. There would be some people just like those who supply their own diesel that would want the freedom from ever using a fueling station, and I think that is fine, they can figure out the logistics. Although for those who already have solar or other green power at their house an ultracapacitor would be a sweet deal in the sence that it could smooth out power delivery. In that instance having an ultracapacitor or other kind of super battery at home would seem worthwhile to me. That also reminds me, if previous said “fuel” stations were providing power from generating plants doing the same old routines of burning coal or dead dinosaurs then nothing would have been gained from switching to EVs. Now with all that said, I wish this wasn’t all theoretical talk. I look forward to seeing ultracapacitors and solar power grids in are future along with cars like Tesla’s (and maybe a tough capable pickup truck for me.) This company is doing good things and this blog is too!

# David wrote:
# Charge time: 5 minutes vs 5 hours. Downside, the charger would require a 3,000 amp 240 volt service.

Recall what was mentioned on the blog here - you could have a 2nd pack permanent at your house. It would “trickle” charge all day/night long as needed. When you hooked up your Tesla it could blast the charge from home pack to car pack. That way you wouldn’t need such a high current grid service.

# Roger L. wrote on September 10th, 2006 at 11:33 am
# To TEG - No, I’m not afraid of microprocessors.
# My point was one of reliability since there are many of these micros in the battery pack.

Yeah… My point was that modern cars are filled with microcontrollers, but then again the big auto companies spend billions testing components for years before they get on the road. Tesla doesn’t have the resources to pre-test the way the big guys do. Also, Tesla is new at this game. A company like GM or Toyota has proven parts that were worked out after years of use in other vehicles.

Time will tell. I am sure they are doing everything they can to try to ensure reliability.

On the other hand, Panoz does already have a 100,000 sq. ft.. plant in Georgia, and they have glued alum. frame (like Lotus) to go with their alum. body.Guess they could make a real sports sedan, with emphasis on “sports”. Yep-a sedan unlike any other, alright-this would be good.

Back to the discussion regarding upgrading the electric distribution infrastructure: Assuming a car’s battery pack is able to accept a complete charge in 5 minutes or less, and assuming the average pack capacity was 50 kWh, as another poster stated, it would take in the vinicity of 3000 amps at 240 volts or a draw on the grid of about 700 KW per charger!!!! Now imagine 4 or 6 chargers at a typical recharging station operating at the same time… That’s over 4 MEGAwatts of loading for a single station… Now imagine thousands of stations accross the country all drawing this tremendous load all at the same time… I have a feeling that would be a problem without a major infrastructure upgrade, possibly even needing lots more generating capacity as well as a heavier grid… Also keep in mind that the heavier the loading on a grid results in lower grid efficiency…

If we kept battery charging circuits small enough to fit into existing distribution panels, thus keeping charging times more conventional, we may get by without the need for a major grid upgrade…. Of course this all assumes that the majority of the transportation in the country switches over to electricity for fuel….

Personally, I feel that a change in lifestyle is needed anyway… Most cars are only used for a few hours per day which leaves lots of time for conventional charging times and lower current draw on our grid…. Solar charging stations at work places is probably one of the most effective solutions…. But it will take some minor changes in our lifestyle habits to make a big impact on fuel and polution issues….

My guess is that 90-95% of charging would occur at home during off peak hours, so there would be significantly fewer people recharging at service stations than you see at gas stations today. Service stations could incorporate some sort of fast charging system, similar to the battery pack or ultracapactior in the car, that would charge at a slower rate and reduce the grid load. This would probably be cost effective for a service station, while at home you would “trickle” (though 4-8 kWh is hardly a trickle) charge the batteries. Unless you are planning to go off grid, I see little reason to have an extra battery/capacitor at home. If you are low on charge and in a hurry, you go to the service station just like today. I mean, you could probably save time by putting in a gas pump and underground tank at your house today, but I doubt many people would consider that cost effective. And, not to sound like a broken record, but this is the LEAST important of the problems with switching to electric. Until battery cost, range, weight, and lifetime are improved, mass adoption of electric cars will not occur. There is reason for hope, but nothing on the market comes close to meeting all these requirements at present, with cost the biggest hurdle.

I’m not saying that we won’t have to upgrade at some point, but I think people who say we’ll have to before we start building electric cars with fast charging capability I’d just say I think you’re creating problems that may or may not exist.

If we have storage, like fast charge capacitors, on cars they can’t cost more than 10k and be intended for mainstream use. That’s just economics, you can’t sell a car that costs more for the storage than the car costs, and people want 20k cars.

The numbers EESTOR are throwing around are more like 2-3k. For 2-3k every charging station would have a bank of capacitors, because it would save money, and they’d trickle charge them at night for the cheapest source and only charge during the day to meet a growth in demand. Discharging a capacitor at a charging station wouldn’t even have to be hooked to the grid. Charging at night would be a power companies dream. They look to even out demand on natural gas turbines, coal plants, nuclear plants and even geothermal. The less change from peak times to lull times the better.

It might work out that we do rebuild, and that’s not all a bad thing, but it’s not a sure thing. There are work arounds, and we don’t even need to use those until supply outpaces demands. It’s one thing to try and clear blocked roads, it’s another to block those roads ourselves.

BSS wrote on September 11th, 2006 at 10:47 am

Oh, and as for a “certain discipline” to maintain your charge, I suppose it would be similar to the disipline required to feed yourself, bathe yourself, and remembering to sleep at night.

===

And charging your cell phone, and your electric toothbrush, and your camcorder, and your mp3 player, etc. Look at all the things that go dead when you would rather they not, or all the times when cars run out of gas, when all is needed is the discipline to take the time to fill the tank. Mock if you must, but human nature is human nature. We put things off. We forget to do things. We get caught with our pants down. A successful EV will flow with human nature, rather than stand in opposition to it; that’s all I’m saying.

As well, I am not saying that the EV won’t work because of this issue, only that it needs to be taken into account to create a true replacement for the ICE vehiclem which the present-day driver can embrace with little or no “culture shock.”

I am also not saying that a massive quick-charge infrastructure is necessary for the EV’s success, but somehow, the problem of quickly getting a “few more miles into the battery” when the need is urgent must be addressed.

Finally, as far as the cost of ultracapacitors, I know what EEStor and other ultracap proponents are saying (and the speculation that surrounds their work). It would be great if a big ultracap “battery” would cost only $2-3K — especially as that would allow the Tesla vehicles themselves to be less costly upfront — but neither the technology nor its cost-effectiveness have yet been demonstrated. The Tesla Roadster and ITS technologies have. We have to go with what we know. What we know is that a redundant battery pack that can be trickle charged to permit later “quick charge” energy transfer to a vehicle battery would 1) be expensive; 2) involve high voltages and currents to enable the “quick charge” function. Or, if buffer storage weren’t used, the quick charger would have to be connected directly into the main power lines, again involving high voltages and currents. The latter setup might be less expensive (and even more conservative of energy), but potentially more risky from the standpoint of safety.

I’m thinking that the ideal setup could involve a high-capacity battery, and ubiquitous trickle-charge opportunities. The vehicle could drive into a “docking port” and engage the trickle-charger automatically, so starting the charge cycle would be as easy as parking the car. But an arrangement like that is probably a product generation or two “down the road.” I’m hoping that something like this can be developed before Tesla or someone else tries to market a family sedan.

“…the gasoline vs. electric car contest goes from being a contestable fight to gasoline getting the WWF Smackdown.”

Please note that it is now the WWE (World Wrestling Entertainment); The Wold Wildlife Federation (WWF) won their lawsuit several years ago; since you folks are conservation oriented, you should not contribute to the sullying of WWF’s good name by continuing to refer to that other … organization with the WWF initials.

Ed

—-

Editor’s Answer: Thanks for the correction. 

As for battery charging, what’s the problem? As a commuter car, the Roadster & later Sports Sedan could go for a week based on my daily commute. You can charge the car one night on the weekend.What Tesla should do is have someone in China build solar panels for them cheap.Then, when the sports sedan comes out, offer solar panels to customers basically at cost when you buy the car.This would help get around the issue of states without solar rebate programs- and states with programs that only have so many “slots” each yr. for people wanting to install solar. For people buying the car who do get a state/power co. rebate, then solar panels at cost would only make it all better.

What I mean in above comment is enough solar panels to power the whole avg. size house. This would definitely provide a big incentive for buying the car.

Wow what a great car! I imagine your looking at $80+ K for a car like that.

I think that if you really cared about the environment you’d be making a car for “joe honda driver” and not the “porsche crowd”

See ya in 3 years, when Honda beats you to it.

Ed Oates wrote on September 11th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
“So, again, as a daily driver, those “compact” parking spaces just won’t be wide enough to fully swing the door open.”

Lexus had a very long door on their SC model and developed a door opening system that widens the opening at the door joint so that the door didn’t have to open so wide. Perhaps the Tesla could utilize something similar.

I would also hope that the Roadster has an automatically retracting steering wheel to help with ingress and egress.

Hey guys;

Love the whole idea of the car, the blog, the revolutionary lithium-ion battery, etc.

This is a question for Tesla Motors R&D. Have you guys looked into or researched photo-voltaic paints made of carbon nanotubes? Is this a feasible idea?

And all you science guys who read this site, is this idea workable?

If you could use photo-voltaic paints to re-charge the batteries theoretically you’d have unlimited range (as long as it was sunny).

It seems like at one swoop you could solve a big part of the energy crises.

You should get jack White from the White Stripes to buy one of these. He’s obsessed with Tesla, plus he’s a rock star so that means he’s also into the environment and living hard. Then he’ll get a ticket racing on the coastal freeway, and you guys will make the news.

By the way, “A2theC”, those ideas you mentioned have been brought up in earlier pages of this blog.
The amount of surface area on the body of the car is probably not enough to generate any meaningful amount of power.
Some have tried to increase the economy of the Prius:
www.engadget.com/2005/08/17/the-solar-powered-prius/
solatecllc.com/

I would guess that maybe if you really tried you could get maybe 300watts from such panels.
So in 8 hours of charging while at work you maybe capture 2.4kWh That is just a drop in the bucket. With the 50kWh capacity of the Tesla battery pack it would take nearly a month of leaving your car in the sun to recharge the pack once. Perhaps another way to look at it would be that a small solar array on the car could give 300watts of current, but the home charger would recharge with about 15000 watts. So you could charge roughly 50 times faster off the home charger than from an on-board solar panel.

========================================================================

Perhaps when flexible solar panel rolls become practical, there could be a tent/cover in the trunk. When you pull into your parking space at work you unroll the cover over the car and it protects the car from the sun while providing enough surface area to actually add some real charge during the day.

See this:
www.siliconsolar.com/shop/catalog/Flexible-Solar-Panel-10-Watt-p-54.html
(that is only 10 watts, but maybe someday the efficiency would be good and you could have one that covers the whole car)

=========================================================================

I am somewhat baffled by all the posters who theorize you could generate power from the spinning wheels, or having a fan/generator on the car. When in motion the car has some kinetic energy (that you added by using the electric motor). If you try to do anything to turn that kinetic energy back to electricity it is going to slow you down again. Generators on the wheels are going to put a magnetic drag on the wheels and slow you down. Fans will add wind resistance and slow you down. There is no free lunch that way. Something needs to feed you power. You could burn something, capture some solar energy (although there isn’t much available), or perhaps you could transmit external power to the car somehow. The original Tesla proposed having power transmitters broadcast energy to power receivers. I think that works conceptually but probably would cause all sorts of havoc and would be extremely wasteful. Another idea would be electromagnets in the road that inductively recharge the batteries as you drive over them. Who is going to support building that kind of infrastucture? I think the approach to collect power at home and carry it with you on the road is probably the right approach right now.

How about something like what the Air Force and Navy do - “in flight refueling”. Imagine you are driving on a long stretch of highway and a recharging big-rig is in front of you. You drive up behind them and latch on for a recharge while you drive. There could be an electrical connection, or even just a tow hitch where they pull you and you step on the brakes to start your regen.

Or maybe in the Pacific Northwest we have recharge ferries? Get recharged while your car is shipped across a straight / bay?

Ciao.

Hey Ronald Greene,

Hopefully that’s not your real name and hopefully you used a public computer to post here, and whoever filed the patent isn’t really you, but someone on your behalf. Otherwise I’m quite sure Big Oil will get you.

And if you sell to the highest bidder, that highest bidder will probably be Big Oil or some car company that will bury the technology, on behalf of big oil.

Don’t sell to the highest bidder, license your technology, don’t throw it away for a quick buck. If it’s even real…because look check this out:

I am an inventor that has been working with solar panels since 1974, and I have developed PV technology that brings the cost/watt down to $1 / Watt, effectively making all other forms of energy irrelevent.

See I just wrote that, I just made it up it’s not true….

Why not make the body one giant battery?

www.physorg.com/news77371085.html .

MSN website home page has article on “future car fuels”-mentioning ethanol, biodiesel, hydrogen and also mentioning hybrid cars. They mention everything that requires a fuel, and nothing about elect. cars and the solar home/elect. car option.
Serious problem with journalism in this country, isn’t there? Are these writers just not with it, or is it that their “handlers” don’t want any mention of cars that would require absolutely no fuel to buy -period, ever (not even electricity to buy)!?

It seems your prediction for batteries getting better is correct. www.newscientisttech.com/article/dn10066-new-type-of-hydrogen-fuel-cell-powers-up.html
Thought I’d post just for the halibut

News story - “New battery technologies are years away”:
news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060914/tc_nm/batteries_dc_3
(suggests we are waiting for fuel cells…)

Still keeping with Mr Ronald Greene and his invention. Why does Mr Greene not email Tesla Motors (privately) instead proclaiming to the world that he has discovered the ultimate electric car technology, rendering anything else obsolute. Something as important as this (if it does exist) should be forwarded to Tesla DIRECTLY not indirectly through a Blog. In fact a business meeting with their Board would be the most professional and yield the best results. On top of that Tesla Motors are not the first to offer electric cars to the public. The guys who make Tango, G-Whizz and Sparrow and all the other electric road midges have made electrics (allbeit little inpractical midges) before Tesla. Although Tesla is the first to offer a really awesome, practical and fast electric car. Finally, no point in getting aggressive with the comment “If I do not hear from you in a week or two I will assume you are not interested and will then offer this discovery to the highest bidder.”. If you have an amazing discovery w.r.t. Electric Vechicles then it should be celebrated and not “pushed to the highest bidder”. A more gentle, calm approach would be welcome. To bring about revolution, takes patience.

“TEG wrote on September 11th, 2006 at 9:16 pm
# Ed Oates wrote on September 11th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
# A comment on the design
# (Tesla was good enough to show me the car at the factory: thanks!).
The UK factory?”

I should have said, the Tesla HQ in San Carlos, California. Sorry for any confusion.

Ed

Progress to date on the…………………………
EAST ~WEST Rail Project
September 18, 2006

Elon Musk, COB
TESLA MOTORS

Dear Mr. Musk:
I am just starting to look for resources to develop a plan for a new East~West Rail System across VT. & N. H., and also a new Engine/Train power system, for the U.S.

I hope you could provide some technical details on your engine as a possible power source to consider in my design concepts. I hope you could provide them for the project when the time comes if things work out.
Also, you might consider Dobles Chev., Manchester, N. H. as a posible dealer. I recently left them a “wired” article on your roadster.

Thank you.

Sincerely
Robert P. Burke,
Originator & Project Manager

The problem with ethanol in the U.S. is that it relies on a subsidized industry that generates a lot of votes. Agriculture is on welfare because it is the one of the largest weapons in the multi-billion trade war that we are losing.

Tesla’s best bet to fight this problem might be to market MADE IN USA more heavily. Convince politicians that each Tesla Roadster exported overseas is equivalent to X thousands of bushels of corns, worth X hundreds of jobs, and more votes at the end of the day.

Looking for suppliers outside of Silicon Valley might also help this battle…

do you think induction motorcycles are feasible and/or worth making?

The problem I see when people talk about ethanol/biodiesel is that they keep pointing out the fact that it requires too much surface area to produce enough ethanol/biodiesel to replace all gas consumed in the United States every year (over 160 billion gallons per year). Although it is a fact that there is insufficient land to produce such quantities of ethanol/biodiesel, it is also a fact that we don’t need to replace 100% of liquid fosil fuels. Take the Tesla roadster platform for example; with a range of 250 miles, one can reasonably expect that well over 95% of all daily trips fall under this distance and just about all miles will be travelled on electric power alone. So the next question is, do we need liquid fuels at all? The answer is yes and no. If you are disciplined enough to plug in your car as soon as you get home every night, one can argue that you don’t need liquid fuel. But what happens when you run out of charge (negligence or malfunction) ? Where are you going to get the 5 KW*hr required to get you to the nearest electric outlet? I guess you can have a tow truck with a generator that can give you the extra charge to get you home but, you can be sure it will cost you more than a quater for this charge (5 cents per KW*hr times 5 KW*hr).
Another factor is charging time. Take for example the Toshiba claim: 80% charge in one minute. This is what it means for a 50 KW*hr battery pack:

(50 KW*hr) * 0.8 * (60 min / hr) / (1 min) = 2400 KW = 2.4 MW

As you can see, the battery itself is not the limiting factor, the power source is!

Now let’s take a look at ethanol. If all personal vehicles were electric dominant hybrids with a 250 mile range, how much ethanol/biodiesel do we need? For the sake of argument, lets say 10% of the current 160 billion gallons of gas burned every year (16 billion gallons). The next question is: Can we produce 16 billion gallons of ethanol/biodiesel? The answer is yes! We currently make over 4 billion gallons a year and we are just getting started.

Why use liquid fuel? because you can fill up a 5 gallon tank in 1 minute!
1 kilogram of ethanol contains about 30 MJ of energy (thermal). A heat engine can only convert 30 to 40% of thermal energy into work (basic thermodynamics, see Carnot cycle). This means that for every gallon of ethanol, you can get 9 to 12 MJ of energy in the form of work and/or electric energy. For the sake of argument, let’s say a gallon of ethanol has a mass of 3.5 kg.

5 gallons * (3.5 Kg / gallon) * (9 MJ / Kg) * (1 KW*hr/ 3.6 MJ) = 43.75 KW*hr

Which means you can pump 43.75 KW*hr of electrical energy (equivalent) in 1 minute if you can fill up a 5 gallon tank in 1 minute (which is not unreasonable).

I am surprised that there have been no comments or suggestions for using replaceable battery packs. It should not be too great an engineering feat to design. A quick replacemet system for the car can be utilized at participating service stations.
Of course, with this system, the batteries could remain the property of Tesla. DG

The solution to the world’s energy problems is not going to be answered with one technology. I have a “green” friend who is very proud of their “green” hybrids they drive to work in every day, and they mock the gas-guzzling SUV my wife and I drive. Problem is, they drive 80,000 (that is eighty thousand!) miles per year so they (2 of them) can live in a huge home in the suburbs (they cannot afford such a huge home in town). My wife and I drive less than 7500 (seventy five hundred) miles per year. I also suspect our home uses a fraction of the energy they use (it is solar powered). We telecommute a lot, and even so are not far from where we work. In the end, telecommuting could be the ultimate green energy solution — it is not the MPG of your car, it is not the efficiency of the energy you use while churning up those miles — it is the total energy you use that matters, whether you use it efficiently or not. Hybrids are just a step to full EV. Bio-diesel will likely survive for long-haul trucking and long distance travel. Telecommuting will eliminate a lot of useless miles. And if we keep the total miles down, electric cars could handle most people’s needs - but not all. And maybe hydrogen has a future like the Hindenburg

I have been preaching the concept of the 100 mile car for some time. Most households like mine have two or three cars and all but one of them could be 100 mile cars and the other one a hybrid for the days you need to take longer trips. I love the Tesla and I hope small SUVs and Pickup trucks are on the future list. I will be first on the list to buy one. (WIsh I could buy a Tesla but a two seater won’t cut it with three kids and dog)

I have been in the tech world (BSEE, MBA) for 24 years (HP, Sun, Qualix, EMC and Dell) and I am currently funding a solar startup in Florida and just signed the lease on 4.2 MW of wind power in IL on a farm we own. ELECTRICITY is the future for ALL ground based transportation and the way we get it is a combination of HYDRO, SOLAR and WIND. (and by hydro I include Ocean wave and current systems) Getting at least 1/3 from LOCAL SOLAR sources (self generated) will relieve the grid from it’s current issues and allow growth to continue without rebuilding the grid and adding additional polluting power plants. Nuclear is not horrible but it is not the pollution free renewable source we need.

I love your ethanol graphic. As a farm owner I love the bump in grain prices but ethanol (especially corn based) is a joke!! We are placing two 2.1 MW generators on our farm as part of a large wind project in Northern IL. We will lose approx 1 Acre of land to farming for each wind generator. The wind efficiency factor is 35% in that area which means we will generate approx 740KW continuously 7×24. The land is very rich up there and can grow in a great year approx 200 bushels of corn per acre. If that corn was converted to Ethanol, using ethanol in the process for all the energy needed to produce the product (not dirty coal like many ethanol plants) then the NET energy produced from that ONE acre would be the same as the wind mill turning at it’s average rate for less than 12 HOURS….. and the wind mill would still have 364 1/2 days of additional energy available. Although I am a HUGE solar proponent, I believe a combination with Hydro and wind is best (We do like our lights and AC at night)

GO TESLA GO SOLAR CITY!!!!!

Ed

I agree that Ethanol is only an intermediate solution (actually, I think that Biodiesel is better than Ethanol). Eventually it will be a combination of renewable energy sources and the most used source will be solar appliances.