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Editor’s Post: Martin has been here, there, and everywhere this week, presenting to a variety of audiences to spread the word about the new Tesla Roadster. Sadly for us, this means that he has not had time to write a blog article this week. However, all is not lost. I have taken a section from Martin’s latest presentation. Click on the button below to see a slide presentation that answers the right questions.
This might take a while to load (it is about 3Mb), so please be patient.
Posted in the categories: Company, Environment, Energy Efficiency, Solar Power
Thanks for posting this in a form that desn’t require Windows or Flash!
With a little luck, I’ll be able to afford “car 2″ by the time you start building it.
“Here, there and everywhere”-from a great song, methinks! The composer should buy one of your cars. He used to own an Aston Martin that he drove on long and winding roads.
you need to mass produce these so there more affordable. i dont know to many people with a a car that was worth more that 50000. you can drive a 20000 dallar gas car a long time with 80000 in your pocket.
You have a great product but you are wrong about the generator ,wrong place.
The wheels in the last shot of the presentation look great! Much better than the original. They look an awful lot like the Lotus Elise wheels. (Which is in no way a bad thing). Which set will the Roadster come with?
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Editor’s Answer: Check here for a close up of the wheel and here for the technical specification.
They are going to mass produce them eventually….it takes time. The first computer costs 10s of thousands of dollars. These guys have proved they know what they are doing….everyone shuld have a little faith.
Great presentation - great presentation. I appreciate the need for simplicity in a presentation like that, but it would be great to know some of the background behind the stats - i.e. what sort of generation techniques etc. and where the stats come from.
I’d love to pass this onto some of my “energy-geek” colleagues, but I’d need a bit more detail to get their feedback.
Perhaps future blog posts could expand a little on each of those diagrams?
“Police Patrol Car of the Future” ?
No room for suspects in the back of course, however,
police DO burn a lot of gasoline just cruising around and being visible.
How many miles does a typical patrol car rack up in a year ?
Just the casual Google query > finds “Our monthly patrol mileage varies from 112,000 to 130,000 plus. Yearly, we patrol more than 1,500,000 miles.” from www.co.orange.nc.us/sheriff/patrol.htm
Energy-efficiency has never been on the radar screen of any government agency, for sure, but times they are a-changin…
Brilliant presentation by Martin! I have a question related to the car: How do the “pop open” doors work? When does the 12 V Aux. Battery get charged? With the Li-Ions? Thanks again for starting the revolution!
—-
Editor’s Answer:
The doors use a latch which incorporates an electric release actuator; the trigger for release is a switch mounted in the shoulder intake. The switch sends a signal to the main vehicle electronic control unit which sends a signal to the latch to actuate the latch mechanism as long as certain criteria are met, including the requirement that the car is in ‘unlocked’ mode. Like most vehicles, it’s unlikely that there would be a complete power failure but in that eventuality there is a key operated manual exterior release mechanism.
There is no 12V aux battery. There is a 12V power supply.
Martin,
Thanks for the great slide presentation.
How many Roadsters have been sold so far? I haven’t seen any sales numbers since the number passed 100. Did you see the Forbes 400 list that was just released? They are all billionaires! How many of them are customers? I only care because that would just mean that we would be closer to the 4-door Tesla Sedan, which the rest of us are waiting for. How many Tesla Roadsters can be bought for a billion dollars? Would Tesla give say Warren Buffett or Bill Gates a discount if they wanted to buy as many cars as they could with a billion dollars? Do you think that would cause more or less media attention than when Buffett recently gave a good chunk of his net worth to Gate’s charity foundation? They would of course give the cars away. Now, wouldn’t that be an interesting problem(s) to solve?
I just thought it would be something interesting to ponder….
The hypothetical letter might read:
Dear Martin,
Greetings! I have heard great things that you are doing with your newest project, Tesla Motors. I have seen pictures of the Roadster and I would love to buy a few. (One of them of course will be for my new wife.)
I was wondering if I could receive any discount on my purchase if I was to be very generous.
I was thinking about a new way to help society, since I have already given some money to my good friend Bill Gates’s great foundation.
Can we do lunch sometime? Call me.
Best Wishes,
Warren Buffett
I would love to be a fly in the dinning room or board room to see how a billionaire negotiates the purchase of a billion dollars worth of Tesla Roadster’s…..
Best Wishes,
Eric Morrison
Ted Turner was on the Late Show tonight boasting about investing in clean energy. Has he ordered a Tesla yet?
The presentation is great!!!! answers a lot of questions now we need a car in silver/grey as the last picture.
Creating a sports car that changes the way people think about electric cars is a great idea. It gets lots of attention and makes people think of an electric car as exciting. 4 second 0-60 times typically come in very expensive packages. Some are much more expensive and require lots of maintenance. For someone who wants an exclusive high performance sports car, $100K is not unreasonable. Not only that, but instead of buying a $100,000++ Ferrari that gets the gas mileage of a large SUV, with ceramic brakes that cost as much as the battery pack of the Tesla, they can feel good about their purchase in all circles of people.
Among my friends who are mountain bikers, hikers, and software engineers I would be the brunt of many a joke if I purchased a Porsche. However, a Tesla would be drooled over by each and every one of them. That may not be reason enough to purchase a car, but considering the reasons that most people purchase exotic sports cars, it makes the Tesla a marketing dream. It is a cake and eat it car that you can buy for any of a number of reasons without any of the negative conotations.
All I can say is WOW !!!!
Great presentation. Defiantly puts everything into perspective.
Elon, we’ll we be seeing you at the inaugural launch for the New Mexico spaceport on Monday?
What’s missing from the presentation is cost of infrastructure for each of the modalities. When you factor in the cost of infrastructure for fuels such as hydrogen fuel cells the cost differential is substantially better for the electric vehicle. As always though, the critics are going to come back to the question of range. Although I think the issue is a red herring, for some reason, as demonstrated by the comments on your blog, people seem to need the security to know that they can travel as far as they want without any restrictions. In your next design why don’t you nip that one in the bud and offer interchangable battery packs? When you are on a long trip you pull into the fuel station, swap out your battery pack for a freshly charged one, and in two minutes you are on your way. If a standard battery pack design was used then they could be interchanged the way pre-filled propane tanks are now interchanged for your home barbeque. If you could swap out the battery pack, then the time to charge the pack is irrelevant, and the range of the vehicle would be unlimited.
For anyone in the San Francisco Bay Area, here are some Tesla-related events coming up soon:
Tuesday, September 26: “Green My Ride” lecture at Stanford
Featuring JB Straubel, Tesla Motors CTO as well as speakers from CalCars and Nanoexa
www.greenmountainengineering.com/transportation.htm
Saturday, September 30: Palo Alto EV Rally
Tesla Roadster will make an appearance according to www.eaasv.org/2006-PressRelease.htm
Fri, Sep 29 - Sun, Oct 1: “Green By Design” opening at San Jose Tech Museum
Tesla Roadster will be on display according to www.teslamotors.com/learn_more/events.php
Enjoy!
Hope to see a new “peoples car” in the 6000 dollar range within five years.Current tec will accelerate,and looking at the engineering curve,your product should have a 20 plus year life(overall),with creature comfort,extreme safety and costumer satisfation.Zero point energy production will put mileage and the Tesla people’s vehicle set to exceed the the original “volkswagen’s” exrectations by leaps and bounds.Thankyou for the fulfillment of dreams that many people have dreamed of for years.Thankyou for your forward thinking.I hope you may have considered on demand HHO production for clean onboard production of electric energy to suppliment battery storage(replacement).I’m eargerly awaiting new generation electricity production for vehicles as well as every petroleum based fuel source being replaced with clean renewable energy.It WILL HAPPEN. hAVE A BETTER DAY. sds
Whats the Price for one?
Willl they ship to canada?
To Bill Katsanos:
I’m not sure what generator you’re referring to or what you mean by wrong place. I’m wondering if you could clarify whether you mean that you think they should have an on-board generator, or the numbers in the presentation or what.
If you could, please clarify what you think was incorrect.
The miles per area is a really shows how good battery cars are. A very good value can be obtained if you consider wind turbines. A 3 megaWatt turbine uses 1 acre for its foundation and access road. (The land around the turbine is still be used for farming or ranching.) The turbine will produce 6,500,000 kWh/year, giving 31,850k miles per year per acre, 17 times better than PV.
Of course PV on buildings uses no extra land. So between PV on buildings and wind turbines in windy farm land, we can power all our cars with almost no impact on land use.
I guess it would be safe to assume that the energy receiver for Nicola Tesla’s original automobile can not be recreated.
I will second how busy Martin has been! I have not seen him at all this week. In fact, I have hardly even talked to him on the phone.
Carolyn
Nice presentation!
As a computer person, I liked the Alan Kay quote a lot.
David wrote on September 21st, 2006 at 6:06 pm
Thanks for posting this in a form that desn’t require Windows or Flash!
It did require Flash, but luckily for Linux users, not Flash 8
tim wrote on September 21st, 2006 at 8:25 pm
you need to mass produce these so there more affordable. i dont know to many people with a a car that was worth more that 50000. you can drive a 20000 dallar gas car a long time with 80000 in your pocket.
Read The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (just between you and me)
One question I have, that to my knowledge has not been addressed in these pages, is the cost of the “other” components. Everyone knows that the major expense in this car is the battery, estimated to cost at least $20,000. A rough percentage breakdown of cost might be helpful. For example, what does the PEM cost, and what might it cost in the future if mass produced? Same with the carbon body and electric motor. In my search for electric motors, most of the 200-500 hp versions weigh upward of 1 ton, so some engineering went in to making this one much lighter. Obviously, the first, low production models will be significantly more expensive, which is why they went with a sports car. But while everyone knows that the batteries are a hurdle, how high are the other hurdles. It would be disappointing if we manage to get batteries to a reasonable price, only to trip over other hurdles on down the line. My opinion is that these are much lesser problems (obviously, you don’t even need a carbon body), but how much less?
Do the numbers presented in the presentation include transportation/distribution efficiencies for the fuels under consideration? For example, in the “What About Ethanol” slide #6, you say that 1 ton of biomass yields 1000 kWh of electricity, or 58 gallons of gasoline equivalent (GGE). Does this take into account the grid efficiency for electricity, or the energy needed to transport the ethanol to the vehicle? If, for instance, the grid efficiency were 92%, as you stated in an earlier whitepaper, then perhaps the conversion of biomass to electricity, delivered at the outlet, yields only 920 kWh per ton. This would give a mileage equivalent of 4508, instead of the 4900 you cite. This lower number is still excellent, but the difference between it and your number is significant, and so I am wondering which is closer to the truth.
Also, on slide #8, in the “desert land” section, I think you have a typo, a carryover of “biomass efficiency” from a previous slide. Do you mean to say “land efficiency = 1,862,000 miles per acre”? And again, I wonder if grid transmission efficiency is included in the PV electric production calculation. If not, then you’re talking about getting “only” 1,713,040 miles out of an acre of desert PV installation.
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Editor’s Answer: Direct from Martin …
The slides are quite simplified - using the most extremely optimistic claims for biomass that I could find. These claimed biomass-to-ethanol values have never been actually achieved in any kind of scale, and many detractors of ethanol question how realistic these numbers are.. I do not account for any of the lower-level inefficiencies in either scenereo - in the case of electric generation, I don’t account for grid inefficiency, and in the ethanol example, I don’t account for ethanol production or transportation. I chose to simplify the examples because the error bars on the production of ethanol or electricity are so much larger than the transportation inefficiencies anyway.
You are right about the typo!
What are the investment oppertunities, and what is the possibility of obtaining a dealership?
Does your car have the ability to keep the occupants warm at -40 F? How does the heater power affect your full charge range? I’m sure the batteries aren’t working as well at -40 F, either.
Doodling on a Friday evening: There are on the order of 200M registered vehicles in the US. If each of them were (equivalent to) a Roadster, and the average annual miles driven were 24,000, then, assuming PV conversion per acre as stated in the presentation and approximately 92% grid transmission efficiency, you would need a total desert area of around 67×67 miles (or four areas of 34×34 miles each, say two in Nevada, and one each in NM and AZ) to generate enough energy for all the cars. How much would a PV megaproject like that cost, I wonder?
we need a four door sports car, maybe something like a 750i
No more talk of changing out batteries, please!! It is not a feasible idea with this battery pack, as it weighs 1/2 a ton, has connections to charge, create the 3 phase power, and for cooling at a minimum. WAY too much hassle. While new design may decrease the nature of changing out a battery by reducing weight or requirements for cooling, they also eliminate the need to change out batteries (see A123, Altair Nano, EEStor) as they can rapidly charge. Plus, these batteries have a shelf life, so a battery change out would require getting a battery that has the same amount of life remaining. You could easily lose $5000 worth of battery life with a bad change-out. Bad idea, all around. Tesla has thought of everything, these are smart guys. The battery technology is just not quite there for cross country travel. Give it some time.
To Greg Woulf: I thought I understood the article to state a generator in the “Wheels” that would not be beneficial.I still beleive that placing a Generator on board will solve the problem.I do not want to argue with Martin about Physics or where to place a Generator.The Automobile is a mass consumer of energy wether Gas or Electric but at the same time it is a mass producer of energy the secret is how do you recapture that energy.
The police comment is great! These guys are never that far from homebase, so they could probably actually save money, even with the current price of the A123 or Altair Nano. Maybe just a 100 mile range, back to the station for a quick charge, then back out! They could afford to pay a little extra and help drive the costs down. However, I think you have the wrong Orange County. Orange County, CA will now have to work on reducing emissions to meet the new California guidelines. This would help the police departments, or any high mileage vehicle, meet their requirements! At 100,000 miles per patrol car per year, the gas costs would be ~$17k/yr for the slow speed patrol, versus ~$4k/yr for electricity. So, $13k/yr for a car with less maintainance (probably another $2k/yr), and the Altair Nano supposedly are good for 9,000 charges and up to 20 years, so maybe 9 years of service. Battery packs would probably cost $20k right now, so total savings of $115k per car for 9 years. Even if the car prices remains at $100k, it would be worth it! Plus, the added bonus of amazing acceleration, which would work great for a cop car (though they might try and catch a few more people on the interstate). And the drive train should last alot longer, so the car would not need to be replaced, just the batteries. Total life cycle savings might be up to $10k per year per car. Sorry for all the numbers, but it seems promising; once again, California comes to the rescue. Next generation. . .
Bill,
No and NNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! The car cannot create energy from nothing! Technically, it has a generator, and it is called regenerative braking. Generators in the wheels are only good for slowing the car down. Period. And period. How much clearer, and how many more times, can this point be made? Maybe you won’t have to argue with Martin, but I’ll fill in. It takes power to move the car, there are frictional losses, tire to road losses, wind losses, and moving the weight. It is a consumer of the generated energy, not generator and consumer.
I agree with BSS that battery swapping is not a good solution. Plus, Martin has already addressed the notion of replaceable battery packs in “The Future of Cars is Electric” (www.teslamotors.com/blog1/?p=12). With better batteries will come better range. Once the range is long enough to drive all day, the only infrastructure needed to support cross-country traveling will be for hotels to offer spots to plug our cars. You might stop at a gas station along the way just to grab a snack
BSS, how about plugging the charger into the cigarette lighter while you drive? Maybe it would regenerate enough power that you’d never have to stop and charge up.
James, California utilities are planning on building a 500 MW solar plant in the Mojave desert, and a 300 MW plant in the Imperial Valley. The 500 MW facility will take up about 4500 acres. They are not actually using PV. They’re using external heat Stirling engines filled with hydrogen. They focus heat on the engine, making the gas expand and push a piston. Stirling engines have been around a long time. These are aso more efficient than PV’s for large scale modular design.
These projects would be the largest solar plants in the world by far. But to give you a picture of the size of the problem, these solar plants would generate 500 and 300 MW, during the day only. California alone sucks up well over 50,000 peak MW during the summer.
There is certainly a place for solar plants, and in fact they are being built. But most practically a solar solution would involve a distributed design (PV’s on rooftops and in the future building materials themselves). For new CO2 free power at night and additional power during the day, nuclear. Although people think nuclear is dead, new plants (with more advanced designs) will indeed be built in the coming years by GE and Westinghouse (though not in California; probably Texas, the Carolinas, and elsewhere in the south). Several are well into their licensing process. Recent legislation has made it easier.
Watching Richard Branson & a guy who was involved in start of Sun microsystems on PBS on “Charlie Rose”. They’re talking a lot about ethanol. No mention of Nanosolar Co. & elect. cars.Ethanol is a stop-gap measure. I’m guessing 2/3’s the country is good for solar, and the rest could get solar power from plants in the sunbelt-using Nanosolar’s panels. The real answer is solar & the elect. car. When Nanosolar makes their solar sheets as proverbially “cheap as printing newspapers”, then we’re talking.The next thing is storing the solar elect. at night-guess that’s fuel cells. The lack of mention of solar/elect. car in the mainstream media is halibuting stupid. Now, “as I speak” Charlie Rose is asking Branson “what about nuclear ?”Jeeezzzz! At least now they’re mentioning “green tags”. Still no mention of Nanosolar Co. (or the other companies working on solar sheets). Yet this concept is absolutely spectacular.When people realize they can get solar at 1/10th the current cost and power their home & car off it, watch out. The car gas bill will be history, the home power bill will be next to history. The resulting payback time on the solar will be what, a year maybe even-or with the rising price of gas less than a year? Yeah, watch out when that happens. Just need to get the elect. car close to a normal car price. Well, 12 P.M.-Charlie Rose over: absolutely no mention of this-and Charlie calls himself a journalist!
Hallo nach USA,
ich möchte Sie zu Ihrem Fahrzeug beglückwünschen. Wann erscheint denn der Tesla in good old Germany? Gibt es denn eine Möglichkeit, dieses geniale Gefährt auch in Deutschland zu fahren?
Herzlichen Dank
MZ
Does anyone know the reliability of Hybrid Technologies’ EaglePitcher Kokam Li Ion batteries?
www.hybridtechnologies.com/products.php?sec=1&id=4
www.greencarcongress.com/2005/05/new_korean_ev_m.html
These guys are supposed to be putting PT Cruisers on the road in NYC in November with EaglePitcher Kokam LI Ion batteries installed.
How about an electric car that never needs to be plugged in? It’s certainly possible…you already have the technology. You just need to impliment it.
Hear from you soon……….!
To Kevin K. who wrote on sept. 23. How about an electric car that never needs to be plugged in?
Yes, it is certainly possible. I offered the technolgy to Telsa Motors and they are not interested so you guys just better get use to the idea
of lugging around 900 lbs of batteries. I understand that Bill Clinton just raised a large sum to fight global warming. It would be nice
if they made some of that money available to inventors working on new and better electric EV’s. Telsa was right in that we are surrounded
by clean energy and there should not be any shortage of it. The trick of course is knowing how to plug into it. While it looks like Tesla
may have succeeded in doing so, fires twice burned down his laboratory so that all we have left amounts to only “hear say”. While the
technolgy will be here soon it is still not here yet. But if you know how to do it help yourself, the patent office is just down the street.
# CEO’s wife wrote on September 22nd, 2006 at 9:47 am
# I will second how busy Martin has been! I have not seen him at all this week. In fact, I have hardly even talked to him on the phone.
# Carolyn
Now that is sad - Martin: get your priorities straight.
Even when things are this frenetic, don’t forget to stay in touch with your family!
(Said half joking… but it is true)
# BSS wrote on September 22nd, 2006 at 8:45 pm
# The police comment is great! These guys are never that far from homebase,
The Roadster doesn’t seem like a model that would suit a police force.
The upcoming sedan might be.
Earlier EVs (like the Ford Ranger EV and Rav4-EV) were primarily leased as fleet vehicles to operations with short range.
Places like the post office (for short delivery routes every day), meter readers, zoos, etc.
I also read that the government in Hawaii had embarked on a big EV program. It sort of makes sense there where an Island like Oahu has only a limited number of miles of roads. People typically aren’t travelling long distances, so a 250mile range would do well there.
Rental EVs in Hawaii could be nice.
If Tesla ever gets to the point where they can make more cars than they can sell directly to customers, it might be a good idea to investigate fleet sales.
# Brett wrote on September 22nd, 2006 at 8:16 am
# For anyone in the San Francisco Bay Area, here are some Tesla-related events coming up soon:
# Tuesday, September 26: “Green My Ride” lecture at Stanford
# Featuring JB Straubel, Tesla Motors CTO as well as speakers from CalCars and Nanoexa
# www.greenmountainengineering.com/transportation.htm
#
# Saturday, September 30: Palo Alto EV Rally
# Tesla Roadster will make an appearance according to www.eaasv.org/2006-PressRelease.htm
(I will be there with my RangerEV)
# Fri, Sep 29 - Sun, Oct 1: “Green By Design” opening at San Jose Tech Museum
#Tesla Roadster will be on display according to www.teslamotors.com/learn_more/events.php
Thanks for the list, Brett!
At the “Green By Design” site I like this little tidbit:
“”Supercapacitors
Race two cars that are powered by supercapacitors instead of batteries.
Supercapacitors have been called “lifetime batteries” since they can survive a million charges before they need to be thrown away.
“”
Us Tesla bloggers aren’t the only ones salivating at the idea of Ultracaps having such longer lifespan than any current battery technology.
BusyBee54 said, “James, California utilities are planning on building a 500 MW solar plant in the Mojave desert, and a 300 MW plant in the Imperial Valley. The 500 MW facility will take up about 4500 acres. They are not actually using PV. They’re using external heat Stirling engines filled with hydrogen. They focus heat on the engine, making the gas expand and push a piston. Stirling engines have been around a long time. These are also more efficient than PV’s for large scale modular design.
“These projects would be the largest solar plants in the world by far.”
I am aware of the contracts that Stirling Energy Systems has with Southern California Edison and San Diego Gas & Electric. Those plants will definitely be more efficient and productive than concentrated PV. I was doodling with Martin’s figures as a way to establish a practical UPPER bound on the amount of land needed to cover vehicle operation. His figures agree pretty well with the expected output of the world’s largest PV farn, scheduled to go into operation soon in Portugal.
To answer my own earlier question about cost of construction, I read that the Portuguese PV farm will occupy 150 acres and cost $75M. At that rate, I estimate that the cost of constructing sufficient PV generating capacity to enable 200M EVs to each drive 24,000 miles annually would be on the order of 1.5 Trillion dollars, or $7500 per vehicle, assuming there were enough silicon available for the solar cells! This compares with the $2.4 Trillion that the US government takes in annually, the $8.4 Trillion of existing public debt, or the GDP of between $12-13 Trillion. I believe that $1.4 Trillion is also roughly twice what Americans spend on healthcare in a year. The good news is that conversion of the automobile fleet to EVs would require many years, even if production of cars kept up with brisk demand — so the significant cost of PV solar farm construction would be spread across that same time period or longer. Land requirements and construction costs (not to mention the drain on silicon resources) would all decrease, were non-PV solar methods to be employed.
Looking at the problem another way, Martin says that 1 acre on a PV farm would yield 1862K miles of driving per year. If the average car were driven 24,000 miles/year, this means that 1 acre of PV could support 77 cars. The Portuguese PV farm is projected to cost $75M for 150 acres, or $500K per acre. Each car’s share would be $(500/77)K, or about $6490. Again, this cost would go down if non-PV solar methods were employed, or if PV efficiency were increased.
To me, these numbers suggest that the establishment and build-out of renewable electric infrastructure for EVs could be self-propagating. I wonder: might some enterprising people sell shares in a power farm, such that the owners (having paid for their shares upfront) would only pay ongoing costs for maintenance (and for transporting the power to their walls via the grid)? What might a monthly electricity bill look like, then?
what is the price range on these new cars
A quick check with the Bureau of Land management indicates that the equivalent of a 34×34 mile parcel would represent only 6% of the 12.1M acres of BLM-managed land in Arizona. If the Federal government were really concerned about national security and energy independence, it could make the necessary acreage available at low or no cost to solar farm developers. Americans could finally get something useful for the taxes they pay, and for the incredible amount of resources that the federal government controls. (Uncle Sam owns almost 50% of ALL the surface acreage in California, for example — can you believe that?) Or, the government could grant market-rate, long-term leases to solar developers. The power would be slightly more expensive to the consumer in the latter case, but on the other hand, federal assets would actually be put to productive use, and the government would realize some income, which would certainly be “half a loaf.”
“In my search for electric motors, most of the 200-500 hp versions weigh upward of 1 ton, so some engineering went in to making this one much lighter.”
BSS, have you seen the Rasertech motors? Look at this monster:
www.rasertech.com/tech_p-2.html
147 lbs., 500 hp, cheaper than existing motors, cheaper motor controller, doesn’t use expensive permanent magnets, and I think it’s like…12″ x 8″ or something, they have the dimensions on another page but I can’t find it right now. Oh and it would be slightly more efficient at cruising speeds, and way more efficient under heavy loads. I wonder if Tesla motors is looking at licensing their technology?
I also wonder who their current battery supplier is now. I assume they are using older lithium batteries rather than the much less tempermental batteries from A123 for example. Maybe the 4-door car could incorporate the rasertech motor technology along with the A123 batteries, or even (crosses fingers, hopes it’s legit) the EEStor battery.
I’m sorry if these questions have already been answered, but I have been unable to find the answers up to this point. How many of these roadsters do you project you will be able to produce in a year, and what will be the cost of building each one? How many of these will you have to sell before this becomes a profitable venture?
Martin,
Great, bbc interview (downloads.bbc.co.uk/rmhttp/downloadtrial/radio4/inbusiness/inbusiness_20060921-2030_40_st.mp3).
What I and others may be interested in next if you could get onto 60 Minutes, Frontline, Discovery, Rolling Stone, Car and Driver, you name it main stream media to the masses. With a comprehensive Energy/Transportation theme show/articles just what you and Elon have been discussing about the present and future state of art.
Seeing what the planet and civilization will look like in 2100, 2200, 2500, and way beyond (10000 can anyone imagine) if we all don’t do our part or just pretend to be ignorant. What will decendents say from the future when we are all dead and long gone that those fat, greedy, lazy, stupid, ignorant people knew they were consuming a bunch of finite resources and expecting grow every year for infinity. What will be critical mass before meltdown obviously we are getting some major warning signs. So any person who expects to live to be 70+ and there kids and there kids and there kids would think maybe conservation and smart energy use along with all the other no brainer ecological smart ideas to help make sure we leave it better then we found it.
For those who think we will all be back in the stone age if we stop growing and consuming, well I bet in a hundered years we will definitly be in the stone age if we don’t start changing quick because 6 billion and up people doubling up and up and up will make that happen really fast not to mension if there master plan is to have all the 2nd and 3rd world be 1st world like, how are we going to grow any more if all the stuff is used up. It might be prudent to go start a landfill resource mining company.
Ok i got my rant out, don’t mean to be CL, but do the hard math and I think any person will be sobered by the reality of our global situation.
Please do your little part any way you all can.
saving in the land of sky blue water
Hey Tesla Clan
What does the efficiency curve look like, just out of curiosity? In other words, how much does higher speed effect energy comsumption. Also, what is the comparison to the efficiency curve of a gas powered vehicle?
—-
Editor’s Answer: Take a look at the performance section of the web site - specifically Electric Power.
love to sell the first hundred Auastralian delivered cars!
# Martin Zehrer wrote on September 23rd, 2006 at 7:51 am
# Hallo nach USA,
# ich möchte Sie zu Ihrem Fahrzeug beglückwünschen. Wann erscheint denn der Tesla in good old Germany? Gibt es denn eine Möglichkeit, dieses geniale Gefährt auch in Deutschland zu fahren?
# Herzlichen Dank
# MZ
Es gibt keine verkündeten Pläne für Verkäufe außerhalb Nordamerikas.
Rasertech is the only company I’ve ever seriously thought about shorting (last year). At the time, the company had a grand total of $30,000 in sales. As they don’t actually make anything with their technology, I think a decent amount of skepticism is warranted.
BTW, thanks for the presentation on my birthday, but I’d rather have had that last page ‘driven home’ ;^/
[’For my birthday precioussss, yesss’]
I don’t know if I can ask this here but why does Roadster have only 240nm?
Prius has 400nm electric motor (with less kw though) right?
Yep, I think Raser Tech might be a scam. Why no one would want to license this technology is beyond me. Plus, it appears no one in the company has significant background experience in this type of engineering. How they got their stock to be worth anything is amazing ($1.3 billion with nothing to show for it?). We may see a cleantech bubble, just as we saw with the internet.
Right Hand Drive model?
When will we who drive on the ‘wrong’ side of the road be able to buy this car?
I like the posts from Merritt & Jeremy. There are two things that I haven’t been so way-stoked about since the last “Green Day” album and that’s Tesla Motors and Nanosolar Co.Therein lies ” a whole new equation”. Solar power, turned out in sheets like printing newspapers, at 1/10th the current cost (and below fossil fuel/ethanol cost) combined with the elect. car. Solar PV farms combined with CHEAP home solar. It’s the start of “Game Over” for fossils fuels.Next we need cheap fuel cells to store the solar power at night and continued battery improvements. Only large trucks, ships and airplanes will really need fossil fuels -”for now” . Nanosolar Co. is supposed to start selling their PV systems in 2007. If the cost is as advertised, the market will be absolutely huge. We’ve had plenty of warnings about the problems with our world for at least 40 yrs. (going back to Rachael Carson , Paul Ehrlich and the first “earth day”). But at least half the country has had to be dragged kicking and screaming to get with the program. Finally even the last dullards are getting the message.If we continue to wise up in this country and ethusiatically get with the program, we could “turn the whole thing around” faster than anyone would have thought possible even a year ago.
I just took some pictures of my new solar panels, and new (used) NiMH EV.
TEG.NET/SOLAR/
If I had more money and patience it would be Nanosolar, and a Tesla… But year 2000 technology brings silicon solar cells and a NiMH powered truck.
The solar panel on the roof of the truck keeps the 12v system topped off, so the DC/DC converter doesn’t have to tap into the traction pack to power the accesories.
Martin;
Why not make the batteries interchangeable?
Gas station owners make almost nothing from the gas they sell. Most of their profits come from selling snacks. If the batteries were interchangeable (and easy to pop in and pop out) I can well imagine some gas stations in selected areas wanting to stock charged batteries.
It would not take much to make it more profitable for them than selling gasoline, and it would keep people coming in to buy snacks and use the ATM.
A driver, low on power, could just stop at a service station, the jockey could run out, put a little tester on the battery to measure how much power was left, slide the battery out and replace it with an interchangeable fully charged one. Then measure the power in the new battery and charge the customer the difference.
Listening to the BBC radio Tesla story Jeremy posted it is plain to hear that Martin Eberhard sounds like Edward Norton.
When Francis Ford Coppola makes his next “American legend car maker” movie the casting of he lead will be a snap.
He’s a great actor. Could be worse.
e
Does the car make any sort of “engine” noise? As your ideal consumer for this sort of product I’d like to see a an “engine selector” and “volume fader” on the dash depending on your mood. Option 1 should be something like a 1960’s MG sounding engine. Option 2 should be “Mazda meets Elise” and you should definitely have a 3rd option based on some sort of UFO / StarTrek “Hum” that oscillates based on velocity.. You’d need some serious bass bins in the vehicle… And yes, I’m serious..
Love the car; two quick questions:
1. where will the spare tire go?
2. will it have heat and air conditioning?
Thanks!
I’m sorry I’m not too technical, but instead of changing the batteries, could you change a component of the battery, such as the acid in the batteries, drain the acid and fill the batteries back up with fresh battery acid, like pumping gas, that would then cause the batteries to be fully charged ?
Regarding engine-noise simulation in the Tesla… A hundred years ago, did anyone suggest that the Model T should simulate the sound of clip-clopping hooves?
money.cnn.com/2006/09/15/technology/disruptors_eestor.biz2/index.htm
According to CNN, a company called EEStor has designed an ultra capacitor that it claims could give an electric car a maximum driving range of 500 miles between recharges and a five minute recharging time.
Perhaps Telsa Motors could investigate the possibility of using this in the Tesla Roadster. If their claims are true, it could double the car’s driving range and cut the recharge time by 35/36.
# Brian wrote on September 24th, 2006 at 11:06 pm
# Why not make the batteries interchangeable?
This suggestion has been made many times and has been discounted due to various logistical problems not the least of which is the weight of the pack and the need to work with high voltage interconnects.
# pete latham wrote on September 25th, 2006 at 9:29 am
# Does the car make any sort of “engine” noise? As your ideal consumer for this sort of product I’d like to see a an “engine selector”
There is very little noise from the electric motor. Martin mentioned in an earlier interview about the idea of having “canned” engine sounds.
They should do it - it would be fun.
# Paul wrote on September 25th, 2006 at 10:03 am
# will it have heat and air conditioning?
Yes, both. It will probably cut into the max range a bit while you use them.
Just curious what you guys might think about the electric motors being produced by this company www.flynnresearch.net? Have you done any trade studies to determine the most efficient motor for your application? According to sources available on the internet, this electric motor is up to 3.5 times as efficient as current electric motors. Obviously the areas for continuous improvement on your car are better batteries and better motors. If you came across a motor that enabled going 600+ miles on a single charge, I would sign up in a second. Thanks for inventing the future!
Brian,
This has been addressed. Consensus? Bad idea. The batteries weight 1/2 a ton and cost $20,000! Too much hassle and potential expense.
This blog should be transplanted to an environmental web site somewhere, it sure doesn’t sound like a car enthusiasts blog! I think Tesla Motors should try to sell a car instead of trying to sell a way of looking at the environment.
Sounds like electric motors are becomming more effecient all the time. I hear that some of the technology has created more effecient use of size and weight,wonderful. The battery problem , being so large, should be addressed more logically by replacing most of it with wind turbine generators. They are almost an electric motor in that most of the same technologies used to create motors and the materials lightweight. Pick up a 12volt alternator in one hand and spin the armiture wiht the other. Takes no effort at all. Hell if you put one on each side car, say in the spot the rear view go and make them air turbine generator mirrors who would know? And,you will be generating some amount of power HUH?
The Roadster’s looks are a little like a Porsche 917 which I love gull wing doors would be super but very hard to do in production.
“Van H. wrote on September 25th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
…www.flynnresearch.net?… According to sources available on the internet, this electric motor is up to 3.5 times ”
Read Martin’s writeup on their motor. You can’t get 3.5 times as efficient as 85-95%.
I’m amazed at the number of people who post here that are willing to read and believe anything, except what Tesla & Martin have written! And forget about high school physics.
Re battery swapping: Extremely impractical. Closest analogy I can think of is: expecting gas stations to having gold, pre-filled gas tanks ready for you to swap in for rent (what? you don’t think you’re going to buy these outright every time you fill up, do you?) for your own nearly empty solid gold gas tank. And the lines, oy. Enuff already. Thank you.
Re onboard generators and air turbines: Ever heard of Conservation of Energy? It’s the Law. You can’t get any more energy out of a system than what you put in.
Yo!-I think Tesla should try to sell a car AND try to sell a way of looking at the environment AND try to sell the idea of getting Gore into the White house-AND that’s just for starters.
# Richard wrote on September 25th, 2006 at 1:36 pm
# According to CNN, a company called EEStor has designed an ultra capacitor that it claims could give an
# electric car a maximum driving range of 500 miles between recharges and a five minute recharging time.
# Perhaps Telsa Motors could investigate the possibility of using this in the Tesla Roadster.
# If their claims are true, it could double the car’s driving range and cut the recharge time by 35/36.
Please read back through previous blog pages. This has been brought up and discussed repeatedly.
# BSB wrote on September 25th, 2006 at 5:08 pm
# Hell if you put one on each side car, say in the spot the rear view go and make them air turbine generator mirrors who would know?
# And,you will be generating some amount of power HUH?
Please read back through previous blog pages. Any power you might generate will be offset by the added wind resistance causing the main motor to work harder.
======================================================
We need a FAQ on these ideas. They just keep popping back here every other day.
TEG wrote on September 24th, 2006 at 9:46 pm I just took some pictures of my new solar panels, and new (used) NiMH EV. TEG.NET/SOLAR/
TEG– your setup is awesome. You have given us all an example of what to shoot for. 100 mpg with that big truck is great. My 2.2 kWH system and no EV puts me at the back of the pack.
Und ihre Deutsch ist ausgezeichnet! Vielen dank für die Antwort zu Herr Zehrer.
Beste Grüße,
Vern
Mark wrote: This blog should be transplanted to an environmental web site somewhere, it sure doesn’t sound like a car enthusiasts blog! I think Tesla Motors should try to sell a car instead of trying to sell a way of looking at the environment.
I was thinking about this sentiment, and it made me wonder what the earliest auto drivers were like. I bet they talked about more than just the technical features of the auto– I can hear them talking about roaming the wilderness, conquering nature, and so forth. Not to criticize Mark too much, but I don’t think we as a group are that different from the nucleus of enthusiasts for other new and revolutionary products. And of course it doesn’t need to be said that we are not just buying the car, but we are buying (time for) the environment.
Vern
The car is fantastic. I do have a few questions…
When would a $30-$40,000 vehicle be available?
I am in the Chicago area. How would the weather affect performance? It seems the cold would not affect the electric motor as much as it would a gas motor. No coolant to change, no oil to get thick, no small electric starter trying to turn over a large, cold engine. Could the residual heat from the batteries be used to heat the interior of the car? Do the batteries produce any fumes or odor? What about corrosion from salt put on the road? Are the systems “sealed” from the environment? If you get into an accident, will you get an acid bath?
Would a 90 plus degree day affect the batteries or motor? Could an all wheel drive vehicle be made using separate systems on each axle? Is Tesla involved with power companies, etc. to discuss what the consequences of large quantities of these vehicles connected to the power grid at the same time? If you are sitting in traffic, does it cut down on the range of the car?
Why not develop some sort of wind and/or solar powered rooftop charging system for the vehicle? Tesla wouldn’t have to rely on power companies to upgrade their power grids to accomodate large volumes of these cars.
I really hope this is the start of a revolution. Living in Chicago, I see thousands of cars/SUV’s/trucks sitting in traffic burning gas and stinking up the place. These are the ideas that will make this planet inhabitable for a long time. Just imagine if everyone had this option along with rooftop solar water heaters, photovoltaic roofing shingles or paint, large scale solar and wind powerplants.
Good luck. Hopefully I’ll be visiting a Tesla dealership in a few years.
BSB,
It is true that spinning a 12V alternator in the hand is very easy. Ever try to spin a 12V alternator while it’s under load? Totally different experience.
If you want to play with the idea, get a smallish DC motor. Note how difficult it is to spin the shaft with your fingers. Now put a wire across the motor leads and spin it again. Very much more difficult to do as you are generating power instead of just voltage.
As has been said, the Law of Conservation rules all…
Will you possibly be producing something practical; I mean for the average joe, like a dour-door sedan / 4-seater with just normal acceleration? By not having such jet-like acceleration, shouldn’t a normal accelerating vehicle have a much farther range, possibly up into the 350-600 mile range between charges? It would be great if someone beside the “Rich and the Famous” could have this technology, that’s for sure.
Thanks,
Garey
Youngtown, AZ
Hey Telsa,
I know you guys are cluey out tech but in case you missed it:
tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/1/19/1715549.html
This is about EEStor and their new capacitor. Charges in minutes… already snapped up by ZENN.
Maybe I should’ve read the previous post
oh hallibut.
To the C.E.O of TELSA I could be the perfect test driver for your new car I am a Paralyzed guy from a motorcycle accident, I drive with hand controls but I don’t go far. If you need a test driver that can generate some attention to your car contact me.
I came up with an idea while driving home last night to recoup some of the energy lost due to frictional losses in the tyres. I have no idea if it would work but here goes.
How about creating a special tyre in conjunction with one of the major tyre manufactures which incorporates a very thin layer of Piezoelectric material embedded in the tyre . Thus as the car moves over the road surface and the tyres flex / deform electrical energy is produced (I have no idea how much?). Obviously this may increase the stiffness of the tyres / increase the rolling resistance and thus negate any gains.
Another area where the piezoelectric effect could be harnessed is in the generation of electricity from the movement of the shock absorbers. Or how about creating roads with a layer of piezoelectric material embedded in the road surface.
Pie in the sky or possibility?
Just done a goggle and a Patent was issued on July 11 2006
www.patentstorm.us/patents/7075420.html
Does anyone ever have a truly original thought
I know the long term plan is to put more affordable electric cars on the market. But do you have any information on companies giving good financing options for purchasing electric cars? Or do you have any plans of offering financing for purchase through your dealers? Also I saw one reference to the battery packs costing aroun $20,000. I assume this means after the 100K miles or so you will have to spend that in order to get a new battery pack. Will that be an accurate cost 10 years or more down the road? Are there any planned cost incentives to recycling the used batteries. Also is your current design compatible looking to future developement of batteries? I’m not very familiar with the technology…
How will this car do in the northern climates, North Daktota or Minnesota
on the current discussion trends
* Flynn Research shouldn’t be discounted, as battery tech progresses, batteries will get lighter and smaller with the same energy density. Therefore, more weight and room on an EV can be shifted to a higher performance motor. You would have to trade range for performance, but don’t we already do that with ICE vehicles. With the EEstor tech, we may not have to worry about the major drawback there, recharge time.
* EEstor seems a little too “magic bullet” to me just yet. The tech promises to solve all these mobile power supply problems in one shot. Let them cough up a power storage pack first, and lets see the stats, then we should celebrate.
* The “wind turbine”, “wheel generator” people should be banned. I’ve never had one physics lesson and I understand that there is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine.
My question is what kind of transportation applications is Tesla looking to in the future. I commented earlier about motorcycles, but what about going the other way toward larger vehicles. I know about the passenger car project that’s planned, but what about the next step. I’m talking about the 1/2 ton to 1 ton trucking market. You know, those are the kind of trucks your plumber, carpenter, and UPS delivery guy uses. Is Lithim-Ion battery tech progressed enough for a company to produce a single axle, perhaps duel wheeled, delivery truck that can haul and/or tow 3000-4000 lbs? I think this is the real brass ring EV companies need to shoot for. Consumers buy vehicles for a miriad of reasons including efficiency, but businesses buy vehicles based entirely on the bottom line. If it will save UPS money to run a fleet of local-only EV delivery trucks, then they will do it.
I’m sold but I need the luxury sedan version. How many years will I need to wait?
WES - “Ever heard of Conservation of Energy? It’s the Law. You can’t get any more energy out of a system than what you put in. ”
False - Nuclear fission is an example.
I know what you meant though, but I believe it’s the law of Conservation of Mass and Entergy…E=MC^2
I agree that Tesla should, at this point certainly, be selling fun first. The Roadster is a driving enthusiast’s car. But it’s definitely not bad to also sell the idea of doing good by having fun. Let’s see, VW has fahrvergnuegen, Mazda has “zoom-zoom.” What will we say about Tesla, which communicates the intelligent, responsible fun of the vehicle in a short phrase?
Perhaps a contest? Maybe the winner gets a Roadster to own (or at least drive for a year)? Hmmm?
—-
Editor’s Suprise: Burn Rubber, Not Gasoline
Es gibt keine Pläne, dass das Fahrzeug ausserhalb von Noramerika verkauft wir ???
Dann würde ich gerne bei Ihnen in Nordamerika vorbeikommen, um dieses wunderbare Fahrzeug und auch dessen Nachfolger mit zu entwickeln bzw. ich wäre stolz wenn ich bei Tesla Motors Mitarbeiter werden könnte.
Mein ganzes Leben schon (34 Jahre) investiere ich in Elekltroautos. Mehr oder weniger professionell. Dennoch besitze ich als ausgebildeter Automechaniker mit mehreren Jahren Berufserfahrung, als Programmierer und als leidenschaftlicher Elektroniker eine große Basis an Wissen. Batterietechniken, Antriebstechniken, Controler und Motortechniken - all das ist mir nicht unbekannt.
Tag und Nacht sollen mein Geist und meine Arbeitskraft in Ihr Fahrzeug investiert werden. Geben Sie mir eine Unterkunft zum Schlafen, etwas zu essen und ein Taschengeld für eine Cola bei McDonalds. Ich wäre Ihr glücklichster Mitarbeiter.
Ist das ein Angebot - Ich möchte Elektrofahrzeuge bauen…
I want build electric vehicles - That’s my greatest dream…
Martin Zehrer
Just came across this and thought it might be of interest.
From the blog:
” “We have found that synthesis of nanostructured vanadium nitride and controlled oxidation of the surface at the nanoscale is key to creating the next generation of supercapacitors commonly used in everything from cars, camcorders and lawn mowers to industrial backup power systems at hospitals and airports,” Kumta said.
Dramatic growth in computer use is making consumers require more from their electronic devices, which creates increased demand for a better power source than existing battery technology. Today’s batteries are also powered by ruthenium, which sells for $100 per gram, compared with the more economical vanadium nitride at $50 a gram.
“Not only is vanadium nitride less expensive to use, it can also store energy much longer, giving users a greater burst of juice for the old finicky car battery or the hospital’s backup power system,” Kumta said.
As people use cell phones to do more than just communicate — as they watch movies, listen to music and process family photos — they need more power. And this new nanocrystalline will solve some of those challenges, according to Kumta.
Other project researchers included Tom Nuhfer, a materials science graduate student at Carnegie Mellon; and Wayne Jennings, a materials science researcher at Case Western Reserve University. The work was supported by Carnegie Mellon seed funding and a grant from the National Science Foundation.
Source: www.cmu.edu”
Not FAQ, FSN, Frequently Suggested Nonsense
:)
greetings: on the subject of quick replacable batteries, would this scenario be viable? in the future commuter version, have a standard battery pack that would give only 80sm range, this would reduce the initial purchase price, if further range is required then go to hertz rentabattery and purchase, lease, or rent batteries to extend the range. these could be fitted on racks to the belly of the car and placed with a small hand operated fork lift for those weekend trips to grandma’s house.
I went to a Lexus demo show “Taste of Lexus” outside Chicago last weekend. Lexus is really pushing hybred cars. I saw their new Lexus GS450h hybred sedan - a beautiful car for about $56k. Lexus is still in the talking stage about adding a plug-in for power from the grid and no talk yet about a 100% electric car. Keep the pressure on ‘em Tesla!
Excellent talk at the ZEV Tech Symposium, the fuel comparison data was excellent in the presentation. The group did an fantastic job displaying current battery technology but I had hoped for a discussion on Li-Ion cell demand on future prices. A plan to produce only 10,000 vehicles (68 million cells) would be a significant impact on cell prices and quickly bring the ability to produce a $35,000 vehicle to market. This is an important data point for CARB to recognize. Again great talk and please have someone look at my resume for the mechanical engineering position. Cheers
# Thomas Mayer wrote on September 26th, 2006 at 5:51 am
# Hey Telsa,
# I know you guys are cluey out tech but in case you missed it:
# tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/1/19/1715549.html
# This is about EEStor and their new capacitor. Charges in minutes… already snapped up by ZENN.
Hello! McFly! READ THE BLOG BEFORE POSTING!
(… This has been mentioned frequently already…)
# Ryan Keesee wrote on September 26th, 2006 at 11:20 am
# * The “wind turbine”, “wheel generator” people should be banned.
# I’ve never had one physics lesson and I understand that there is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine.
Perhaps the blog filter should be changed to turn EEstor, ‘wind turbine” and “wheel generator” into a halibut!
# Garey Lawliss wrote on September 26th, 2006 at 1:59 am
# Will you possibly be producing something practical; I mean for the average joe, like a dour-door sedan / 4-seater
Yes, that is their plan for vehicle #2 (”The White Star”). The Roadster is the “Dark Star” prototype.
# Dan wrote on September 25th, 2006 at 11:57 pm
# I am in the Chicago area. How would the weather affect performance?
# It seems the cold would not affect the electric motor as much as it would a gas motor.
I think the weather concerns “boil down” to battery impacts more than motor.
Many batteries have “issues” at temerature extremes. A typical EV may use some extra power to heat or chill the battery pack as needed to keep it happy.
# What about corrosion from salt put on the road?
The roadster would probably be a good vehicle in this regard with a body made of aluminum and composites.
Although the low ground clearance high performance nature probably wouldn’t be good with much snow on the ground. Would Tesla recommend against using chains on the Roadster? My guess is that it is a fair weather vehicle.
# Are the systems “sealed” from the environment? If you get into an accident, will you get an acid bath?
I understand that everything is sealed. They don’t use “lead-acid” batteries so I don’t think there is any acid to leak out. The concern with Li-Ion batteries is more fires due to overheating. Tesla has staked their reputation on the technology they are using to avoid any kind of catestrophic battery failures including during crashes.
Check out their Safety page:
www.teslamotors.com/engineering/safety.php
Hi, I am relatively interested in building my own electric/hybrid car from a concept i have designed and pursued… Is there anyone who knows where I can get the materials/donations/etc. for this project? THANKS… Anyone who wants to communicate via email or AIM, feel free… [contact info deleted]
Hype machine has gripped EEStor
by Tyler on Tue 26 Sep 2006 02:26 PM EDT
Since first posting about EEStor back in January, followed by my Toronto Star feature on the company in March, there’s been a steady trickle of interest from readers of this blog. But in the last week interest in EEStor has exploded, mostly the result of a Business 2.0 article that was republished on CCNmoney.com. Now, Slashdot.org has picked up on it and the hype machine is in full gear.
Recently, I’ve been getting two types of e-mails/comments about EEStor. One is from those who are itching to get more details about the company. All I can say is that I post the details as I learn them on this blog. I have no special insight beyond that. The other type of e-mail/comment is from engineer/science types who believe EEStor is a scam and seem to think that just talking about the company and its claims amount to some kind of crime.
For the record, I have my own healthy dose of skepticism with regards to this company and its claims. That said, I do think the jury is out until we learn more. This isn’t a publicly traded company, so I’m not concerned that shareholders are getting ripped off. If a venture capitalist wants to invest in EEStor, then they’ll have to do their own due diligence. If they get burned, well, that’s their fault.
As for investing in Feel Good Cars, which is publicly traded, as a way of indirectly investing in EEStor, proceed with caution. That’s a very risky strategy — do so at your own risk.
Should this story be dismissed because it flies in the face of what many engineers and researchers and ultracapacitor experts *believe* is possible? Absolutely not. Should we follow this story with a critical eye? Absolutely. But I think it’s too early to compare this story to cold fusion. Give it a chance. Have an open mind. If it doesn’t turn out to work, then move on to the next great hope. If it does, then we can take pleasure in knowing that the hype was justified.
As an FYI, don’t think for a minute that the folks at EEStor want all the attention. They’re not asking for publicity. They remain in “stealth” mode. They’re not granting interviews. They’re just trying to do their work and prove to their investors, which include Kleiner Perkins, that a commercial energy-storage product is possible.
Where’s the scam in that?
tyler.blogware.com/blog
To Mark Tebbutt
Bose developed an electromagnetic suspension for cars that basically acts like a speaker to absorb energy. It might not be the most efficient model for producing energy, but its a great idea.
www.bose.com
The roadster obviously would not be driven in a Chicago winter. In my previous blog, I was really thinking about the “practical” sedan of the future. Thank you for your comments. Good luck Tesla!
Dear Friends in Tesla,
Greetings from India.
A great presentation.
Now the Indian Market is open.
Especially Chennai in Tamil Nadu.
Why dont you open up an outlet here.
Add me too plse.
Regards.
R.R.Sethu
hello elon and martin, i have here some food for thought, which might also leave some question marks.
first of all, elon, your master plan:
1. Build sports car
2. Use that money to build an affordable car
3. Use that money to build an even more affordable car
4. While doing above, also provide zero emission electric power generation options
is an excellent approach. however, i ask myself for the time being until we have a more efficient ( minutes versus hours charging time for at least 500 miles worth of discharge) energy storage system available, wouldn’t it be more desirable to add to your first electric volks wagon a mini compact generator. i am thinking about a modified, improved stelzer free floating piston generator, with ethanol injection instead of gas. this kind of generator would be most likely the most efficient and compact generator there is. it could increase the current range from 350 miles with only the size of a strong sailor’s arm and the consumption of a few liters of ethanol to at least 500 miles, which would be sufficient for the average traveler.
there is also the questions of the drive train. why to use a transmission when there are e-motors out there, which could be attached straight to the wheels and make a real four-wheel drive. if i remember right, mitsubishi is developing such a family car. these type of induction motors act like an infinitive transmission, brake and generator. then there is raser-tech at www.rasertech.com who claims that they have a 500 hp e-motor, which weighs only 60 pounds and is 50 % more efficient than conventional e-motors. i am not an engineer and can’t tell, if this is real or con-stuff .
years ago i wrote to bmw and daimler that their hydrogen projects are completely idiotic and dead-ended. why to convert water most likely with carbon based energy to hydrogen and then convert it back into energy again, with a lot of energy loss. why to sink all this money into hydrogen batteries, which are no good for a long time to come instead of investing in the development of conventional batteries. i told’m to watch out for california, this is, where the revolution will come from and surely it did. in any case, you elon and martin are on the right track and headed for the right direction. congratulations and
cheers, ed
ps as you might have noticed, i am trying to promote lower case as a world wide internet writing style, since it simplifies communication and fits well into the web mode. it’s also a good excuse for the indolence of my pinkies , isn’t it. so don’t feel obligated to break with an old, dear and hard to quit habit.
Martin, I’ve followed the stories of a number of electrical vehicles that made it into production. I have noted to myself that faulty controllers have dogged and doomed several of these. The ones that come to mind are the Sparrow, the e-max scooter, and now the evt z-20 motorcycle/scooter, which has delayed production yet again because of a controller problem.
Are there any thoughts or anecdotes you care to share on the Tesla Roadster’s controller?
I’m going through Tesla Blog withdrawl. I hope we get a real one next week, no offense intended. I love that the people at Tesla take the time to do this for us.
If it’s acceptable I’d make a wish list for future blogs. One would be a semi-diary type things of the public appearances of the roadster with video links and such. I’d like to see a blog dedicated to events and media, hopefully including a decent video of the prototype.
I’d like to see an update on the production of the parts. A little detailed information on the Hethel plant and how it’s going, and any detail we can get about the electric motor. I’ve read the site and all and the motor is something that is exceptional in this car and I think people pass right over it. Any tech stuff on the pieces and parts that go into the car, whether electrical or just automotive would be welcome.
Last but most for me I’d love to see a blog on the development of the whitestar. I know that’s a touchy subject and that you want to reveal the white star details with all the glitz and glamor of Hollywood, but I’d love to get any info that we can get.
I would just like to say that in your comment boasting about how your roadster is faster then a lamborghini, you are completely wrong. The Lamborghini Murcielago does 0-60 in 3.6 seconds (road and track). I was trying to find an exact figure and was unable to. By saying that your car does 0-60 in, and i quote “about 4 seconds”, could mean anyhitng from 4.0 to 4.9999 which is a huge difference in the world of cars today. having right under a 5 puts you in line with the new $30,000 mustang gt, which is hardly the lamborghini you claim to beat. I admire all of the engineering that has gone into this car, but to make exagerated statements like that is not right. Anywhere in the range of 4 seconds is a respectable time, but does not make it worthy of comparison to a lamborghini. On a side note, i have yet to see any of these on the road, much less the track, but if i ever do see one, i am will look foward to beating the hell out of it with my 2002 corvette Zo6, which doesnt do zero to 60 in around 4 seconds, it does it in EXACTLY 4.2 seconds.
# Franklin wrote on September 27th, 2006 at 5:30 am
# Are there any thoughts or anecdotes you care to share on the Tesla Roadster’s controller?
Reading between the lines, I assume this:
* It is their most difficult bit of engineering in the car.
* They found the “best and brightest” engineers to focus on doing it right.
* They know it can be the achilles heel, so they are testing the !@*#(& out of it right now.
I also think they are using practical engineers who have built many controllers before, so they plan to build something that works more than just in theory.
Also, they based their designs off of proven technology from AC propulsion, so they started from a good place.
Personally I worry about fan and capacitor failures after a few years, as they seem to be the weak point in many computerized devices.
Steven, here is a video of an electric car that does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds. It beat a Porsche Carrera GT and Ferrari 360 Modena.
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3624337653720181416
Electric cars are fast because the torque is always around the sweet spot, virtually regardless of RPM.
Tesla has in the past always been very conservative in their calculations, for example in their well to wheel analyses. I would be inclined to believe that the 0-60mph time is closer to 4 seconds than 5.
According to their white paper, the Tesla Roadster goes 0-60 in 3.9 seconds.
teslamotors.com/display_data.php?data_name=21stCentElectricCar
Steven Dowd wrote: ” i have yet to see any of these on the road, much less the track, but if i ever do see one, i am will look foward to beating the hell out of it with my 2002 corvette Zo6, which doesnt do zero to 60 in around 4 seconds, it does it in EXACTLY 4.2 seconds.”
Yeah well I have a suggestion as to where you can park your 2002 Corvette Z06.
Martin Zehrer hatte geschriebt: ,, Es gibt keine Pläne, dass das Fahrzeug ausserhalb von Noramerika verkauft wir ? … etwas zu essen und ein Taschengeld für eine Cola bei McDonalds. Ich wäre Ihr glücklichster Mitarbeiter. Ist das ein Angebot - Ich möchte Elektrofahrzeuge bauen… ”
Heute nacht habe ich meine deutsche Prufüng bekommen. Adjektivendungen sind eine große Schwerikeit für mich!
Du musst kein mehr McDonalds essen. Obst und Gemüse ist besser für dich.
Why no comparison to Natural Gas?
A friend of mine believes that an ICE running on CNG will be cleaner than an electric car, if the ‘long tailpipe’ leads to a coal-fired plant.
Is this true?
—-
Editor’s Answer: Take a look at the efficiency page.
The whitepaper is very informative if you actually read it!!!
teslamotors.com/display_data.php?data_name=21stCentElectricCar
The Page 8 chart shows you straight up which cars have an acceleration lead over the tesla. They include: Porsche Carrera GT, Lamborghini Murcielago, Dodge Viper SRT-10, and Saleen S7. AND YES, it beats the Z06 (stock). AND Yes, it beats the ‘95 Lamborghini Diablo VT (4.7sec). Check out www.eurotuned.com/0-60.htm If your Z06 has some nice mods then maybe. Some of the Carrera 911s can push past the tesla too. The important thing is that there are only a handful of exotics that can match it and they are in the same price range too. But the tesla is mean AND GREEN.
Range is too short for me. I like the rest of what I see, but I have family that lives further away than 250 miles. I would like an EV with a range of 600 miles or more. The current price is a bit too high as well, but would be justifible if the range was higher.
Sincerely,
Jerry Eggleston
Love the presentation. Nice and simple to send to folks who are just starting to look into alternatives to the ICE, or who think H2 fuel cells are “the answer”.
The Roadster is just incredible, congrats! I just wish I could afford one - it would be nice to have one in my driveway, sippin goff my 7.8KW PV system! I can’t wait to see the Gen2/Gen3 vehicles…good luck with the WhiteStar plant in New Mexico.
Earlier in the thread someone mentioned A123 and EEStor. I know you’ve put a lot of thought into the vehicles Lithium batteries, but have you been keeping an eye on FireFly? They’re a spin-off of Caterpillar, and have a carbon-foam based battery that looks very promising. Electrolux (Poulan, Husqvarna, etc) will be using them in their electric lawn equipment with traction-motor capable units hopefully soon.
Doug Eckert
ps -Need any Unix/Linux system admins???
can u tell me the difference b/w the electric motor and electric engine……. plzzz
the question is how to produce electricity and than how to use it efficiently. Electric car is the way to go, but problem is how to store or generate electricity in the car ? - Today’s batteries are very efficient but very very dangerous as well. I like this car but the US is not ready at all (some counties in EU maybe)- majority of US electricity is produced from coal, so unless you have quite a few solar panels on your backyard to charge your car, using this car could be more polluting than regular gasoline car.
This is a step in the right direction. But could you please make a model that will appeal to the rest of us; family, neighborhood, not at all “Look at me”. You could have 2 models, the Roadster and a Family wagon car.
I will take 5 cars please if i pay xtra can i get one earlier. I am in complete agreement electric cars are the only sollution. Electricity can be produced by many diffrent fuel sources. Solar and wind along with rainfall and human generation is fine for me. I am an engineer my self and have been working on alternative energy. Oh for a while to say the least. My findings to date are this the hydrogen cell would be nice if the main ingredient was not methanol created by natural gas. yes people methanol will be the prefered method over time. They will never make the deadline for the storage and distribution system that needs to be done to meet the demands. A little chemistry knowledge and you will start to see that all the other alternative fuels have there own carbon footprint and worst prints then carbon. Fact Methane is 18 times carbon as far as a green house gases are concerned. I have been doing alot of demonstration with diffrent alternators and sterling engine for various diffrent existing systems. I am very curious if you have looked into adapting the sterling engine into your design. Even if just to use for a heatpump for ac/heating. I can also see the benifits of the sterling engine pushing a couple of low rpm alternators from the residual heat due to thermodynamic losses. A little power boost never hurts and am willing to give my hard work away to develop this technology. I actively run a non profit company to make renewable energy affordable to those who need it. I admit wind and solar are my common choices. The sterling engine just makes good sense when coupled with already wasted heat sources and cold sources for that matter. I have adapted a sterling engine to run an alternator it takes heat from my water heating system and deposits heat when i run my tap water. I also adapted a small turbine to turn by the force of my running tap water. A little energy here a little energy there it all ads up.
I will give you this one for free. Close that airgap to get better efficincy. I have been experimenting with diffrent magnetized liquids they double as a coolant for my stator also. It helped me take advantage of cheaper magnets since as i said i do this out of my pocket and not for profit. Dont ask i am one of those strange people who thinks you cant take it with them when he dies so it is better to help those out that you will see in the next life. I hate money. It makes to many good things go wrong and to many bad things go right for the wrong people.
Just one more quick comment this motor design it would not happen to be off the adams motor design would it.
Just curious never been able to get one to work that well yet. Have you looked into nano tech to produce nano tubes in your battery banks for cooling purposes i believe this will increase you ah. Also you can do some neat things with 40% efficient solar panels these days i would love to see a couple of them incorporated. remember a little energy here a little energy there that is true energy coservation.
To all of you complaning of the price. Hence Sports cars cost more money. The batteries alone are a fortune. The technological advances for the good of our grandchildrens right to breath are what count. Not what is in our pockets. I realy dont see the oil companys rolling back that number on the barell, do you? common sense is that it will increase so how do you know that it will not be worth the investment. If the barrell hits $200 you will be singing a diffrent tune then.
I do not know about the east but from appalachia to alaska what I believe would serve and sell best is a chevy S10 size pickup especially a 4×4 or the same in a SUV . solar panels would be a plus that most retrofiters and red necks would soon incorperate. I own a large remote cattle ranch and such a vehicle would be great; most of the use is 45 to 100 miles a day with mostly setting in the sun charging and no gas bills a plus. a bigger rig would soon be in demand from rural users. Hope you folks succeed in changing the direction we are going.
AWESOME PRESENTATION!!!!!!
Hi, I am from Spain, I am very surprise to discover your car; It looks a great car ( now a days).
now!!!, You have the technology; development, nice dessign, show your demo cars;
but… Delivery time is too long for the Tesla S. At the end of 2011 or 2012 other companies will has the same technology, so this will not be as great at it is now.
I live in Almeria far from the city, south of Spain (70 miles, with Dessert wheather), and sometimes I can see in my zone how similar cars with black plastic covers are tested. Someome was not engine sound!!! So competitors are working in this way…
Are you going to make any presentation in Spain. let me know!!!
Now the Register prize in Spain for cars under 120 CO2 is free!!! your car is 0 CO2.
Spain is growing very fast in alternative clean energies. and people is coming sense…