I was about to point out that my initals (TEG) have nothing to do with “Tesla Energy Group”, but I see Martin already pointed that out at the end of his posting. Sorry if this lead to any confusion, but I don’t plan on changing my name (or domain) so I guess we will have to share our ambiguous TLAs!

I am glad to see that all your hard work on the ESS is branching out and can help other vendors.

To Martin Eberhard:

I like your joke about TEG and my names on this blog - thank you. It is obvious that you are reading the blog of your company with significant attention to details and people involved . It is quite unusual style for CEO I have experience with.

Once again you have shown a sound business strategy. Innovators like yourselves help to provide jobs for our country, and advance our technology. I’m sure everything will succeed as expected.

This is a great move Martin. Anything that can spur growth in the global EV market is good for all of us. Any speculation how much, if at all, the increased purchasing of batteries will drive down the cost of the whitestar? Will you only be selling the ESSes to other EV producers or will they be made available to the public as well? Your site and what you are doing has inspired me to start an EV project car and I would love to have a Tesla branded ESS over the rear axle, if I could afford it.

The sctuttlebutt I heard on the Rav4 Electric (I drive one) from a Hollywood green guy insider type was that Toyota was suppliying a LOT of parts to the Big Three in Detroit. They called up Toyota and said, “We don’t mind your hybrid, we’re even buying hybrid pieces from you, but the all-electric makes us look bad.” And the Rav4 stopped production.

Maybe it’s not true.

But be careful who you are selling to and make sure your contracts allow you wiggle room to supply Tesla Motors FIRST, and that TM is protected from liability from TEG, so that if the automakers start a bunch of lawsuits and drive TEG into court instead of into production it doesn’t slow the arrival of my roadster.

And see if Think will start shipping over to the States again.

Thanks.

This is a great development. Right now retrofitting existing cars is just a pipe dream as they are all too heavy but if the battery technology keeps improving maybe in 5 - 10 years time there could be a big market in selling complete proven kits to professionally convert selected existing vehicles or indeed for Tesla to go into the conversion business itself. I know this is way off-message for you guys but the advantage of this is that we don’t need to throw away all those millions of gas guzzlers out there and all the expensive and oil consuming parts they contain. Provided the conversions can be properly and safely designed for each model of car and carried out by authorised factories or dealers there’s no reason this shouldn’t happen. It does of course depend on battery technology improving quite a bit so you can use a stronger battery to overcome the weight and poor aerodynamics of the car being converted and still get good performance. Of course properly designed EVs straight from the factory will always be a better solution for those who can afford them but don’t rule this idea out completely. And can I have the license to do this in the UK please?

Maybe eventually the Tesla Energy Group could offer an affordable ESS to the general public for DIY projects that convert old gas cars and trucks to electric vehicles. On the other hand, those DIY projects might fade away by that time since many of them are started by people who are tired of waiting on manufacturers to offer an affordable EV, and decide to build/convert one on their own. I would suspect/hope that there will be plenty of production EVs available by the time an ESS pack is available to the general public. Although I don’t see how we can have affordable production EVs if companies like Tesla Motors HAVEN’T STARTED CONSTRUCTION OF THEIR ALBUQUERQUE PLANT YET! It’s about ONE MONTH BEHIND SCHEDULE ALREADY… AND COUNTING… Maybe TH!NK can produce their car with the Tesla ESS and sell it in the U.S. faster!

National Gas Price Average as of 3/21/07: $3.218
California Average: $3.436
Some locations approaching $4.00+

I like this line the best “we will remain very careful about which deals we consider, and my job is to remind Bernie from time to time that the Tesla Roadster is still Job One”. Pretty much says if they are direct competition to the roadster then no ESS technology for you! Venturi Fetish or the “evil” Pheonix SUT.

Martin,
This is great news!!

” This morning I read that the entire GE Plastics division is being sold to the Saudis. ”

There is a good reason. The Saudis can afford the oil needed for Plastics production. This division which was doing great 5 years ago, has been really hurting for the last few years mostly because they couldn’t compete with the Chinese.

The Saudis because of there ability to supply oil from the production side of the fence, may actually be able to make this plastics company profitable again. It is also guarantees them a market for some of their oil. This will also help many US citizens continue their employment. Which would you rather see, a huge company fail laying off droves of people, or continued employment and the possibility for the company to actually compete?

Epoxy resins, fertilizers, and plastics will continue to use oil until there is no more left. Then all of these industries will be faced with the much more expensive task of synthesizing petroleum bases. So like your synthetic oil that costs 4 times more than conventional oils, there would be another increase in costs across the board.

What I find interesting is how the middle east already knows the end of oil profits are in sight. They are diversifying right now. Look at the amazing resorts that are being built in Dubai. They know their oil will be gone in about 20 years so they are building new waterfront cities, hotels, indoor downhill skiing, water parks, etc.. They want to become a premiere tourist destination. www.resortsdubai.com/burjalarabhotel/index.html
Other countries have larger oil reserves, but many of them are planning for a future where oil is no longer a main part of their economy.

The TH!NK website, which probably hasn’t been updated since this announcement, says they use Zebra batteries. If they’re talking about what I think they’re talking about, I’d much rather be driving around with a Tesla made temperature regulated Li ion pack than several liters of ~300deg C molten salt!

In general I think this is a plus. Tesla Motors gets more working capital without having to go to venture capitalists. And the per unit cost of the ESS goes down with increased economies of scale. Someone earlier mentioned an IPO. That would be the worst thing for Tesla to do IMHO. Tesla needs to keep it’s focus on the long term and not on quarterly profits and stock price. Plus it opens up the company to takeover by others who would prefer to bury Tesla’s technology in a very dark place so they can keep raking in cash with the status quo.

Something tells me the White Star in my future just got more affordable.:)

This is a pretty cool deal for Tesla, but I’m with Martin–gotta get that Roadster into production yesterday

On other comments…

IPO: My opinion is Tesla should delay this as long as possible. The advantages to being a private company are innumerable. When the time comes, though, carefully do it so your share price is permanently much higher than GM and Ford Never ever split your stock! Expensive shares are free marketing

Conversion Kits: I can’t see Tesla offering conversion kits of any kind… the talent at Tesla would be better focused on building bona-fide electric cars. When all cars on the road are Tesla models, who needs a conversion kit?

After reviewed Tesla Motors incentives and commitment on ESS, I’m convinced that EV will be the next generation of the automobiles. At the same time, I’m worrying about how long ESS will last; for the Li-ion batteries that I use with the notebook PC (Vaio, Vaio type-UX, etc….nearly 7 so far) tend to cease prematurely. I had to buy one battery after another — again and again. In not just one year so but only four months, the Li-ion battery of Vaio type-UX showed its voltage =0V. Most companies say that Li-ion battery will deteriorate in a few years and 50% capacity will be considered to be its end of life. But I have experienced that several batteries tend to become 0V quite quickly. In Panasonic notebook PC, there is a choice whether the user chooses the charging is stopped when 70% of full capacity is made. I wonder if the engineers at Tesla Motors take such precautions or not. —Since your ESS is the critical parts, to be sure, for your company’s success.

Another point: I hope Tesla Energy Systems helps automates pack DISassembly and recycling of used cells.

I’d love to own a Tesla roadster… I’d love to invest in this company, with it’s virtually unlimited potential…

Please, Tesla, license your technology as soon as you can - consider Microsoft and Apple in the early days of personal computers - Apple tried to go it alone while MS licensed theirs, and MS is by far the dominant operating system provider. There will be competition, no doubt already being developed, but you are in the lead - make as much money as you can as fast as you can - by getting the product on the market!

An IPO would be a good way to raise funds - just do it right and sell less than 50% of outstanding shares. Sell less than 25% and you can do a secondary offering after the price goes up 100 times or more!

If there’s anything I can do to help you, let me know!
Paul

Another reference of Saudi Royal family ownership of US companies can be found here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_Holding_Company
At one point they owned about 4% of Citigroup…

On the one hand it is good to see overseas dollars come back to the US, but if trade inequity goes on too long the foreign investors eventually end up with a lot of say in how the business are run.

I live on a lake in gorgeous rural Alaska and I get to my home across water every day. To travel the lake with a solar electric powered silent running boat would be the ultimate but the only one who comes close, the Canadian ‘Loon’ is too slow, 6 knots. Add your technology and give me my quiet cruising beauty! See - www.tamarackelectricboats.com/ and get together with these guys - they have a great design, and you could make it happen!
Don’t make me use my 502 hp Airboat! The distant neighbors think it is a plane that never takes off and goes away….

WooHoo!!!

This is great news! This is proof that Tesla Motors is a great company, striving forward with EVs.

Note: Martin, make sure there aren’t any sort of legal problems or anything of the sort with you giving Th!nk your EES technology. Problems arise when comapnies work together, problems that can destory companies.

But I have faith in Tesla; who wouldn’t be interested in fast cars! =)

I’m so happy!!! The mere possibility that my next battery pack might not HAVE to be lead acid is exhilarating. Please. Do not forget us little guys who are toddling around in our homemades….

You are making the most of commodity lithium cells. I hope you can get them to move to aluminum soon. The japanese manufacturers seem to be moving toward large format cells. It will be interesting to see if the Prius 3 will use affordable large format lithium cells. If so then NEC/Nissan, Mitsu/Yusu? will follow with their large format cells. In two years they will be supplying to all automakers. I also read that Magna auto parts supplier will be looking to supply standard packs to car manufacturers - per standard spec. I imagine the ESS will become a standard module based on the power requirements on various sized cars.

Right now we are still in a DIY period for EV companies. This will change so I hope Tesla will be evaluating and producing large cell ESS’s. This is great news for Tesla today.

I like the name Tesla and I hope it will evolve into a full car company with a full range of cars. I hope they will have clean, modern, but classic timeless well balanced, sporty,muscular designs. ie: Porche, Audi, BMW.

#Ryan Lamansky wrote on May 22nd, 2007 at 2:54 pm
#As long as we’re on the ESS subject, does it have any mechanism to communicate with a charging station to negotiate maximum supported amps & volts?

From what I recall, the charge controller is on board the car, and handles nearly any widely-available volt-amp combination.

Congrats on what appears to be very good news.

In addition to great cars, what about building the perfect platform for sail and powerboats. Check out Solomon Technologies “electric wheel” and regenerative sailing….very fascinating but 12 x 12 volt (HEAVY) AGM batteries outweigh the benefits.

I’m thinking you should try out your ess battery pack with an electric wheel and
could that parlay into another revenue stream?

Go get ‘em !

Kevin McKernan

# TEG wrote on May 22nd, 2007 at 12:19 am

# I was about to point out that my initals (TEG) have nothing to do with
# “Tesla Energy Group”, but I see Martin already pointed that out at the end of his
# posting.

TEG, Tesla may be paying homage to your very informative posts.

I once had an English professor who had written his dissertation on “Automobiles and the ‘American Dream.’” The older I get, the more I realize his primary thesis rings true: the automobile represents, in many ways, the dual American Dreams of “freedom” and “adventure.” Mr. Eberhard, your blog brings up two important points regarding this subject: First, the “Big Three” surrendered their pursuit of this “dream” when they failed to recognize a fundamental shift in market and societal forces underlying their core business; Second, Tesla Motors is now positioned to quite literally “restore the American Dream” while neatly addressing the two largest issues of the day: global war and global warming.

I realize that, for many bloggers on this site, talking about marketing isn’t as much fun as talking about the impressive engineering feats your company has achieved, or about the impressive money your investors are poised to make. I might offer, however, that if asked what they want on their tombstone, many of your employees would be quite happy with, “he restored the American Dream.” Many of your customers might also be happy to tell their children that they “helped restore the American Dream.” It might not be appropriate for your first advertisement campaign, but by the time you’ve got a few vehicles on the road, and have launched the first few vehicle models, I might suggest an advertisement campaign: “Tesla Motors: Restoring the American Dream.”

Your doing your thing for all the right reasons! This planet cannot endure the strain we are placing on it for much longer. I’m glad there are forward looking people like yourself that can see what so many seem to ignore. Do whatever it takes to put your cars on the road. My only fear is that you may be about 30 years late. However,
we cannot loose hope.
I’ve sold BMW’s and currently sell Ford’s, Before I leave this earth I would like to sell a couple of thousand Tesla’s.

Martin - For the benefit of us simple car enthusiasts who want to get on board with this but are neither Electrical Engineers nor physicists could you please explain a little bit about how car performance is affected as the battery runs down. In your EPA testing you state:
· To measure range, we fully-charge the Tesla Roadster and then drive the test cycle repeatedly until the vehicle self-limits its performance due to a low battery. The range we achieve on the dyno is the range we report – plain and simple.

That’s great but before the vehicle is considered to have “self-limited its performance” how is it driving? What sort of acceleration can be expected after 100 miles and after 150 miles and then 200 miles? And when you say “self-limits” do you mean that the vehicle is no longer driveable or that it has much reduced performance? Would it still get up a hill in San Francisco say 20 miles before it “self-limits” its performance and what would its 0-60 time be at that point? The EEs on here might think these are rather simple questions but it is this sort of real-world information that should help convert IC people into electric car people. We need to understand the characteristics of your battery pack. Thanks for any help you can give with this. Another query: what sort of individual failure rates do your battery suppliers quote for their cells? With 6,800 cells the chances of any one cell failing are multiplied and I understand the car shuts down if a failure is detected. Or did I get that wrong?

Roy wrote on May 22nd, 2007 at 7:05 pm
#Timo wrote on May 22nd, 2007 at 4:36 am
#“I think marketvise it could be smart move to make a deal with Altairnano.”
#Altairnano has made great progress but their batteries are VERY expensive. Tesla is smart to remain in a position to buy from #anybody where they can get the best deal and not be committed to one manufacturer.

I know, but my idea was to ensure that Tesla gets a good deal with them when those Altairnano battery price goes down. If Telsa can convince them that they can build a future de-facto standard ESS with Altairnano battery tech it is a win-win situation. Both sides win. Combine your efforts. Do co-operation.

First you would, of course, need to design that ESS with Altairnano. That requires time. By the time you have got semi-standard ESS ready Altairnano probably has got production tech and volumes large enough that basic battery cost goes down. And when it is ready all other car-companies wanting Altairnano in their EV:s would need to get it from Tesla.

Altairnano is already selling their batteries, which means that even that they are expensive they are attractive enough to generate demand. That means that once they get their prices down that tech will sell a lot. If they choose to sell their production to one of the big ones it is big loss to Tesla, possibly fatal even. Tesla needs to ensure that they at least *can* get Altairnano batteries once they get their prices down.

Best situation would be that Altairnano could sell their batteries to anyone for products that are not EV:s (UPS, normal car battery, Solar Cell energy storage, laptop computers etc. etc.), and EV:s thru Tesla.

The main thing with Altairnano is their safety and 10 minute recharging. That makes it, and similar techs, future choise. With 10 min recharging you can create gas-station equal energy distribution infrastructure making hugely increased EV battery range requirement a moot point. If you can get 200+ miles with once charge now *AND* can recharge it in energy station in 10 minutes it would mean practically infinite range for vehicle. Of course you would first need to create that distribution infrastructure, but if you can get, lets say, 600V 3×200A three-phase connection in gas-station-equal it would create 360kW power which means 10 minute charge for 60kWh battery pack. And most people wouldn’t drive their battery pack empty before recharging. And there are already standards for that kind of plugs. All you need is to get gas-stations/roadside restaurants/whatever to serve that power.

The problem overlooked by here is the political problem. Good economical storage systems represent a huge threat to the utilities, the oil companies, the companies that service both and the government bodies that get tax revenue along each step of the process.
The ability of the individual consumer to be free of the oil companies and utilities by using solar energy which is dropping in cost every year combined with storage, which is also dropping in cost every year scares the hell out of everyone with an interest in maintaining the status quoe. Who has ever seen any organization or person give up the gravey train without a fight. These organizations will do anything to retain control through patents, the political process or control of capital. They have the money and political power to do this and will fight in ways we have not even imagined. Our problems are politcal, not technical, I would like to see Martin address these issues with his unique insight into the valley and the people who are game changers. The other blog readers and I would greatly appreciate your insights into this. Thank You

# Andrew Kelsey wrote on May 23rd, 2007 at 12:56 am
## …the vehicle is considered to have “self-limited its performance” how is it driving?
## What sort of acceleration can be expected after 100 miles and after 150 miles and then 200 miles?
## And when you say “self-limits” do you mean that the vehicle is no longer driveable or that it has much reduced performance?
## Would it still get up a hill in San Francisco say 20 miles before it “self-limits” its performance and what would
## its 0-60 time be at that point?
## The EEs on here might think these are rather simple questions…

Actually Tesla staff are probably the only ones who could really answer those questions at this point.
It isn’t simply battery physics, but rather what they have programmed into their software to intentionally reduce output to
lessen stress on the batteries and prolong their life. At some point, various conditions, including nearly exhausted batteries, would probably trigger something like “limp home” mode which has the vehicle creeping along the shoulder desperately looking for a place to change or get repaired.

Comment on Timo’s words about 10 minute charging on May 22nd:
I’ve driven a 2000 Th!nk for almost 4 years now. Charging time is not an issue, range is. I need to sleep for 8 hours, so if it takes 8 hours to charge that’s OK. Range 80 km/50 miles has also proven adeqate for me; I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve HAD TO drive my fossil (ICE) car per year.
The Infrastructure is not ready for 10 minute charges if this charging is by electric current. Where I live 3 parking spaces share a 10 amp cirquit. It was built in the ’60’s and designed to supply 550 watt electric heaters for fossil engines. It’s sufficient to charge one Th!nk or other EV at a time today. So are all electrical outlets in Norway. A shorter charging time will require new infrastructure.
For longer journeys there are more effective means of transportation than by car.

Electric greetings
Tom R Simenstad
Oslo, Norway

Everyone has been asking what the performence of the Tesla Roadster is after 100+ miles of driving. Well, I don’t know for sure, because I’ve never driven the Tesla Roadster, and I am not affiliated with the company, but I do know a thing or two about electric cars.

Just because the Tesla Roadster has driven~100 miles and is at~50% state of charge, does not mean you’ll have 50% performence. 50% state of charge means that you have half as much energy, not half as much power.

Here’s the proof: avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/sce_rpt/2000nissanaltra.pdf

The lithium-ion Nissan Altra EV was built for fleets during the CARB mandate. At 83hp it wasn’t designed for performence. Page 13 displays the acceleration times for the vehicle’s different states of charge.

100% State of Charge 60% State of Charge
0-60mph 15.56 seconds 15.18

As you can see, there is only a 0.4 seconds difference in acceleration time.

Here is the NiMH EV1: avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/ev1_eva.pdf

100% State of Charge 50% State of Charge
0-50mph 6.3 seconds 6.5 seconds

Again, although in a different battery type, still only a fractional difference in performence.

Also, ask yourself this…When your labtop is only 50% charged, does it go only 1/2 as quick?

#Andrew Kelsey wrote on May 23rd, 2007 at 12:56 am
and wanted to know what happens when the vehicle self-limits. Just like with a fossil (ICE) vehicle you avoid running out of gas/diesel/whatever. With an EV you start every morning with a “full tank” so running out is less likely to happen. By the way, the fossil vehicle comes to a sudden stop when it runs out, with an EV you continue diving slowly up to a mile to find a safe place to stop. If you have to stop and start again, acceleration is as slow as a city bus. Experience teaches you not to try to go up the steepest hills with a near discharged battery, you go around the hill instead.

Electric greetings
Tom R Simenstad
Oslo, Norway

To Tom R Simenstad (and others)

You are a person who doesn’t drive much if you need to use your gasoline-car only handful of times / year and your car range is only 80 km.

I enjoy driving. In my high-school time I did drive that 80 km pretty much every day just for fun. If I can choose between train/aeroplane and car for long trip I choose a car. Car gives me freedom that no other means of transportation can give (except maybe motorcycle, but I prefer cars). I can just go driving for days in unknown area just to see if there is something to see. I once spent two weeks just driving around Finnish Lapland. I don’t think there were enough “opportunity charging” possibilities to charge my imaginary Tesla Roadster there. I once extempore decided to go visiting my friend in Helsinki which was 700+km away from my home. I had driven over three hours before I remembered to call home that I just might not make it to dinner…

For that kind of usage charging time is an issue. A big issue.

Simple fact is that without extremely long range batteries we would need recharging stations just like we now need gas-stations. It isn’t big change you would need to do in electric distribution to get standard 600V 100 or 200Amp three phase connectors in place where gas-pumps used to be. Gas-stations probably already have large electric inputs for various reasons. It just needs to be extended to customers. That could then be used with trucks and long range buses etc. too. This change we are experiencing here WILL change ALL cars, not just household saloons. This is revolutionary times for car industries.

What we wont see is WILL to do that change. It is both political and marketing thing. EV:s kill gas-companies. First gas-company that realizes that this change is inevitable and starts to serve EV:s as well will have edge over other companies, but it would take time before that happens. And they would probably fight back as much as they can, even using questionable methods when desperate. There will be period of time (probably few decades, starting from pretty much now) where EV:s and gasoline cars live together. Then there are only EV:s.

This is future thing, but not so distant future that you don’t need to plan for it. If you can get that fast charging tech in your grasp now, take it. Plan for it. That’s my advice. After a few years it might be too late.

# Joseph wrote on May 23rd, 2007 at 11:07 am

# Also, ask yourself this…When your labtop is only 50% charged,
# does it go only 1/2 as quick?

I think this is an unfortunate analogy, which may encourage people to compare things such as flashlights and radios with things such as CD players, EVs, and portable computers. Things of the former class operate primarily in an “analog mode”: by that I mean that they can keep operating with much less than optimum voltage, and you get the perception of graceful degradation (e.g., the light gets dimmer and dimmer, the radio’s sound output gets softer and softer, etc.) until the point when it just isn’t possible for the residual charge in the battery to cause any useful or noticeable result. With digital circuitry, however, you have to keep the voltage within reasonable bounds, because if you don’t, it simply malfunctions or ceases to operate altogether. The Roadster is neither fish nor fowl. It contains numerous microprocessors that must have voltages in a specific range, but it may be that the electric motor itself could exhibit some form of graceful degradation as applied voltage decreased. It sounds to me, however, as if the ESS never lets the voltage go low enough to require the benefits of the motor’s analog ability to degrade gracefully in performance. More likely, the ESS is designed to register a “0%” charge somewhere above the damaging depletion point for the battery, and that this floor has been calculated to allow the motor and all the other systems to operate within specifications. In other words, at or near the displayed “0%” charge point, there will still be a significant amount of charge left in the battery, just not enough to let the Roadster travel much further without risking battery damage due to over-depletion. You could probably continue to run accessories, such as a sound system or heater, for a good long while before the ESS would reach that “damage point” and have to shut down completely.

Oh, for the day when I can verify this supposition via firsthand exeprience with the Roadster and ESS.

Re-convert old car with y(our) technology?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1W757i_cD4

First run of an electric converted fiat 500 F.
10 Kw separate excitation motor.
96 Volts 100 Ah Lithium polymer batteries.
My dream since 2005 made true thanks to the association I founded, Euro Zev.

# James Anderson Merritt wrote on May 23rd, 2007 at 4:27 pm
## I think this is an unfortunate analogy, which may encourage people to compare things such as [flashlights] and [radios] with things such as CD players, EVs, and portable computers.

FYI… The world is going “digital”. My (125 lumen) LED flashlight runs at full brightness until the Li-Ion battery is too low then it shuts off in an instant.
Many digital radios are the same way… On or off, no gray area.

## … you have to keep the voltage within reasonable bounds, because if you don’t, it simply malfunctions or ceases to operate altogether.

## if the ESS never lets the voltage go low enough to require the benefits of the motor’s analog ability to degrade gracefully in performance.

FYI - I think the ESS will output voltage in the range of 297 to 411 volts.
That would suggest that it is possible that a near empty pack would have 30% less “oomph” than when full.
The reality is probably far more complex. The PEM is regulating current draw based on programmed amounts, not the max the pack can deliver. So far all we know, max programmed current draw is still less than what the pack can deliver when near empty.

## More likely, the ESS is designed to register a “0%” charge somewhere above the damaging depletion point for the battery, and that this floor has been calculated to allow the motor and all the other systems to operate within specifications.

Yes, probably something like that.
Do consider, however, that if the pack is “just powerful enough” for the job it would be tempting to write the programming to tap into that “little extra” you get when it is full. (Make it go to “11″ as Nigel might say)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=akaD9v460yI

# Lonnie Burk wrote on May 23rd, 2007 at 6:49 pm
## I was thinking if it would be possible to design the battery module in such a way to be removable…

…Yes… This idea has been floated on the blog many times now. The current Tesla ESS is too big, heavy, and intertwined with the car to be easily swappable right now. Tesla has not announced any plans to offer anything easier to swap in and out, but we can hope someday they will consider such a thing.

Just a few thoughts I’ve had while reading the blog and comments.

I work for the fourth largest health insurance company in the US. We are the only one of the top insurers who is NOT investor owned. And our CEO keeps reiterating that we intend to stay non-investor owned. Why? Because once a company sells stock, the priority shifts from servicing the customer to pleasing the shareholders. Period. It doesn’t matter who owns controlling interest or how much. When the stock slips in large corporations, they lay off employees, close plants, and reorganize the corporation rather then just build a better product that people really want. The long-term vision shifts from the ten year plan down to the next annual report. (By the way, we comply with Sarbanes-Oxley even though we don’t have to because it’s the right thing to do).

Regarding giving business advice to Martin and Elon; Google them then ask yourself how you made your first billion. Suggestions, I’m sure, are always welcome. But a litany of Tesla missteps speaks to the arrogance of a sideline quarterback.

Regarding the ESS, sort of; I have a question. Does the charger unit have a timer on it to take advantage of time-of-use rates?

And finally, so what if TH!NK brings a sedan to market before Tesla? First, they are a European firm and Tesla does not intend to compete in that market. And, second, I keep reading that there are 17 million autos sold in the US annually (have not confirmed that number). When Tesla ramps up the Albuquerque plant, they intend to produce 10,000 sedans a year. I’m sure they will sell every one even if there are other EVs and PHEVs available, because 10,000 is only 1/1700 of the total market.

# Antonello wrote on May 23rd, 2007 at 6:19 pm

# First run of an electric converted fiat 500 F.

# My dream since 2005 made true thanks to the association I founded, Euro Zev.

Watching your video made me misty-eyed. I wish I could have understood the Italian language in the soundtrack. But the pictures of the test-run and the sound of the motor’s whine were more than eloquent enough. Congratulations on realizing your dream.

The show “Big Ideas for a Small Plant” on the Sundance Channel has a segment on the Tesla this past Tuesday night, along with some other vehicles. The next showing of this episode is tonight at midnight eastern time (11 PM Central). It has some pretty good video on the Tesla Roadster driving by with a very faint turbine-engine-like whine.

# Jeff wrote on May 23rd, 2007 at 9:59 pm
## I wonder how things will change in 2014 when the patent (acquired by Chevron and then of course
## prompty killed, see ev1.org/chevron.htm) for the NiMH deep cycle long life battery systems that are in the Rav4-EV expire?

It won’t matter much by then. Li-Ion is proving superior, and the rising price of nickel has made NiMH into yesterday’s technology.

We really should have had some NiMH EVs for sale right now, so rather than “Who Killed the Electric Car” it is more “who held back the electric car from 2001->2007″. Hopefully the new generation of EVs stick around for good this time.

Ok late to the party…………

Many congratulations on the (official) launch of the T.E.G. The headstart you have with the current design of ESS gives Tesla a clear global lead in the new engineering discipline of “Lion Taming”.

Even if the cell chemistry doesn’t change in the next few years, durable 18650 format L-ion cells will increase in capacity. Your greater purchasing power will reduce unit costs and may even lever the switch from steel to aluminium. At the very least, you can drive down the weight and manufacturing costs of the other ESS elements, hopefully getting a few more patents in the process.

I know that the current design holds the cylindrical batteries in “sheets” in a sort of “wine rack” affair. Could patented aluminium extrusions (with built-in cooling channels) allow for different, lighter modular packing arrangements? How far can you push the design to use more of the mechanical rigidity of the cells themselves? Since the cells provide most of the weight, can they be interconnected so as to contribute to more of the strength?

………and still allow for automated assembly of course

Your announcment of TEG is great news indicating an additional revenue stream for Tesla Motors, Inc. Hopefully, a profitable venture that will benefit Job One. But, please, don’t ease up on Job Two, the Whitestar, as there are, obviously, many of us anxiously awaiting just a snibbet of information about that project. I can find no reason why the Whitestar won’t be the product that will be the “making” of Tesla as a significant factor in the greening of the automotive industry. And a serious competitor for the PHEV concept.
Tod G. Collins, Orcas Island

To AES:
>> Everything else on their cars is licensed from other groups (examples: modified Lotus Elise chassis, AC propulsion motor, etc)

If you do not evenknow that Tesla DOES NOT USE ACPropulsion motor, then how can I trust you on any thing at all?

You are spreading FUD.

Pure and simple.

Zap-X is vapourware, lots of claims but no proof!
P.S. the recharge recepticle is in the wrong spot.

For those of you that don’t visit the home page very often, take a moment to check it out. There is a new picture

The Editor.

To AES and Timo, since you know so much, please go start your own car company! Best of luck with your business venture, but be aware,I am not cancelling my Roadster order based your opinion.

Malcolm Wilson writes:
#Try and remember that these blogs have become vast documents which, thanks to the tendency of us regulars to drift off-topic, are quite difficult to search.

I was thinking about this too. There’s actually no good place to answer frequent questions with a link or two, unless a blog entry happens to be on point. Tesla’s own extensive FAQs are quite good, but I haven’t been able to figure a way to pinpoint a particular subject, as they are displayed in JavaScript popups. A few days ago, I went as far as thinking about hosting a kind of unofficial FAQ on my own site ( planetbrent.com/tmufaq.php ), but then realized that it’s a bit presumptious, and perhaps even redundant. Perhaps there’s some other clever way of doing this. A Wiki?

—-

Editor’s Answer: There is a blog search function coming soon. 

To Editor: I think that new pic alone is going to score some sales Might I recommend noting in small print on the lower left side “Tesla Roadster in Times Square, NYC, April 2007″, so people know it’s a real-world picture and not a studio shot?

I like the new slogan, too. “No Compromises”. That definitely sets you apart from all of your so-called “competition”. It’s not perfectly accurate, of course–you are compromising the ability to drive cross-country–but it really captures the essence of Tesla Motors

I pay pretty close attention to ZAP, and believe that ZAP-X is still at least a couple of years out. On the other hand, if they could increase the speed and range of their Xebra cars, they might capture a fair amount of the low-end, “city car” market. I like the Xebra, but can’t seriously consider it because it won’t work for the Highway 17 commute between Santa Cruz and Silicon Valley. Speed up to 70 MPH and range of 100 or more miles per charge would change that situation, however.

We’re trying to develop EV motorcycles on a small scale initially, in south India. I was very interested in your post on the Tesla Energy Group and was wondering whether there would be any chance to get battery packs from you at affordable rates.

AES -
First, thanks for the “toned down” follow up comment - you gain a bit of respectability by not being shrill…
As much as many of us would love for Altair’s product to become viable, it just doesn’t seem likely - Altair has a long history of over-promising and under-delivering. They have locked themselves into a long-term partmership with Pheonix, a company that has tied its viablity to a shaky business plan at best, relying on a govenment program which is notorious for changing as often as a drity socks… Altair’s greater problem is one of price, and its ability to bring costs down. Altair’s batteries individually are currently more expensive than Phoenix’s cars. This is for multiple reasons including their lack of scale - not something that will be easily fixed given their corporate culture.
Firefly is an interesting technology from a reputable company, but as of yet has not been verifiably tested, and it is uncertain of how long it will take to reach market - and even then it is for lawn mowers.
A123 has a much better shot than wither of these, but it too suffers from certain issues. Although they are well funded (over $100 million) and have decent scale (exclusive supplier to Black & Decker) and have significant manufacturing capablities (2 plants in china, and one contract overflow plant [BAK]), their costs per watt-hour still do not compete with commodity 18650s, and their energy density is still almost 30 percent less.
Al this said, I too believe that the ultimate future will be batteries that are “inherently stable”, I do recognize the importance of learning that comes from having an early start in a field as quickly changing as EVs. And the only viable technology TODAY is certainly 18650s. The question of when this industry will evolve will be answered by how long it takes to get pricing for the stable technology near that of the commodity cells. A123 just announced their 32-series cells made in large form factors and higher energy densities specificly for elecric vehicles - I still don’t believe they will be viable for another 3 years.

this is to AES>
you stated that AltairNano and Firefly have been independently tested.
in the day of the internet, where is your URL ?

just to let you (people who think EVs are ready solution) know current energy storage system is not ment to solve anything… we need to develop way better method to store energy. No current batteries/capacitators are ready to be mass used. Our best hopes for Li-Ion are just false hopes. Read more if you want. Besides that EVs are perfect.
www.meridian-int-res.com/Projects/Lithium_Problem_2.pdf
www.resourceinvestor.com/pebble.asp?relid=31961

keep up good work Tesla Motors hopefully better ESS will come.
your big fan
Andrey666

AES and Timo appears to be very emotional proponents of Altairnono technology. I think emotions prove nothing about performance of EV, battery pack etc. Would we have more decent discussion based on physics and technology arguments I guess it would be more useful.

My technical summary after I filter emotions of AES and Tome comments is this:

1. Altairnano batteries have better energy densities at temperature extremes but worse energy density if best discharge temperature is allowed common 18650 cells and for Altairnano cells.

2. Altairnano cells are not mass produced so they are not available at optimal price in mass quantity. It exist implicit belief that mass production could be done with better price than conventional 18650 cells. This belief is not proven by any commersial practices today.

3. Altairnano cells have much higher recharge cycle count and no termal runaway problem allowing them to be use outdoor without sophisticated temperature management and other complexities.

4. Altairnano cells are available in larger format so it is simpler to build battery pack suitable for car.

5. From myself I could add that Altairnano cells have several times higher than conventional 18650 cells power density.

Let us assumed that all that is properly proven. I have no reason to question this assumption.

My take on that is that for high performance EV all these advantages of Altairnano cells are irrelevant. Altairnano cells are the best for hybrid cars. Here are my resons:

1. To get decent range for high performance car it needs significant amount of energy like 50 kWh to 100 kWh. Energy density of all today batteries is severely limited so it is very hard to get indicated amount of energy under reasonable weight.

2. At energy capacity of 50 kWh to 100 kWh conventional Li-ion cells have enough power for high performance car. Altairnano higher energy density will not be critical for more than 50 kWh energy storage to provide adequate car driving power. So from that point both battery types are not limiting.

3. Better useful energy density at temperature extremes is not critical because one always could use energy of battery itself to heat it to opimal discharge temperature. So energy density at optimal discharge temperature is most critical factor.

4. Temperature runaway preventing and other reliability improvements could be done at cells level like in Tesla ESS design or at molecular level like in Altairnano electrodes design. As long as it proven that battery pack as a whole is robust enough for a car for end user of a car it is not critical at which level it is done. Both Tesla ESS and Altairnano battery pack seems are safe enough proven by tests. Here some doubt could exist until we see mass produced cars using both battery technologies build up 5 - 10 years of mass service with no problems. Until it happens it is a matter of faith and it is very easy to distrust. But such a distrust is applicable to both technologies and becomes a matter of religious belief instead of technologically sound judgment.

5. Because of higher reliability of battery pack required in cars versus consumer electronics ESS suffer energy density degradation. The same is implicitly true for Altairnano pack because they reduced energy density by electrodes material selection and design in favor for reliability.

6. Small format of conventional Li-ion battery cells complicated ESS manufacturing. So it has some effect on cost increase of the large scale battery pack compared to Altairnano batteries. This is all.

Bottom line is that for higher than 50 kWh energy storage battery pack two major critical factors are relevant:

A. Energy density of large format battery pack as a whole.

B. Cost per 1 kWh storage of battery pack including depreciation cost.

For ture high end car range at high performance is everything, price is econdary factor. So finally the most important thing is factor “A”.

Altairnano claimed about 90 Wh / kg energy density. Tesla ESS is using 180 Wh / kg cells. But because of factors 3, 4 and 5 above at ESS level energy density degrades down to 110 Wh / kg.

So finally for the factor of energy density we have Tesla ESS as a winner.

Considering cost because Tesla Motors aparently solved problem of reasonable cost mass production of 6831 cells ESS they have solid mass production stream of conventional Li-ion cells as a supply and are independent on anything else. Altairnano technology requires several years transformation into true mass production. This tells me that cost of current Tesla ESS will stay lower than Altairnano batteries for at least several years.

So for the whole business model of high end, high price EV for rich people Tesla Motors technology seems optimal for next 5 years. This is sufficient for business success. Surely Tesla Motors is not here to produce high performance EV for true mass market and ordinary people. They are servicing millionairs and the like. But in that market niche I believe they win by large over Altairnano batteries and related EV technologies. Predictions that Tesla Motors will be “destroyed” soon etc are way exagerrated. Tesla Motors will be very successful actually.

Now if we come to under $30000 pricing segment story changes. Today no battery technology including Altairnano, A123, Firefly etc is cost competitive enough to provide more than 5 kWh to 10 kWh battery pack under this price range. As a result EV is not possible for this segment if you are not limiting range and/or performance too severely compared to common cars. But something like serial or serial-parallel hybrid cars with plug-in capability for 20 to 40 miles range are very valid for such a segment. For 5 kWh to 10 kWh battery pack power density of Altairnano batteries is a clear cut fit. Tesla motors reduces ESS like 1-2 slices out of 11 will not compete properly from the electric power point of view.

So under $30000 I expect serial and serial-parallel plug-in hybrids based on Atkinson engine cycle ICE, 6-stroke ICE etc will become dominant grow sector for next 10 years at least I guess. Altairnano batteries could be a clear winner here provided mass production for them will be proven possible at reasonable price. Tesla Motors approach with pure EV and ESS as a cornerstone will most likely have trouble coming into that market segment.

To TEG and to few others.

My thought about 70kWh altairnano battery in Zap-X is a guess just like yours was. But it is quite safe bet if your info about Altairnano battery sizes are correct (35kWh and 70kWh). It matches nicely to Zap-X range. And I didn’t think about ZEV credits. That might make Zap-X non-viable in anywhere else than California which in turn makes it pretty much vapourware and just a marketing trick even if the car is real. You can’t beat big ones with tricks like that, you need something like Telsa Roadster to do that.

My comments about Tesla failing with TEG failing are my fears based on simple logic: if you don’t adapt to new technologies with ESS (which is in Tesla Roadster) that would drop future sells to zero and de-value Tesla Roadster to zero too. Nobody would buy car with obsolete technology which would make Roadster re-selling value very low. Tesla might even need to offer existing owners new ESS way before current one have aged so much that it needs replacing anyway, which can cause losses to the company. And that is _with_ adaptation to new techs.

However: IF tesla does adapt to new technologies fast, then there is nothing to be afraid of. Martin announcement about TEG and selling ESS in other companies just made me think that they get themselves in position where they are not so flexibe in switching technologies and can’t adapt so easily. Also Roadster has so big price-tag that it doesn’t really sell a lot, which might make replace-ESS loss a small one.

To Carrie: I would have started my own EV-car company ages ago if I had money, facilities, contacts, and I wouldn’t have been happy with my current life situation. I have thought about lihium-ion -based EV:s as soon as lithium-ion batteries appeared in the market. It doesn’t take rocket scientist to figure out this idea, Telsa just is first one to make it really happen.

When battery prices continue to get lower and new techs keep on making batteries better and better you will notice that Tesla-like small companies will emerge everywhere. Big ones cannot stay without reaction, which in turn will create a market war. Tesla is just tip of the iceberg and a first one to make that all happen. I hope it survives as a winner in that war. When I said this will cause a revolution in car industry I wasn’t kidding. I really did mean that.

If the big car companies and oil companies try to kill this one like they killed previous generation (www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/) they will fail. We have reached a technologigal point where you cannot suppress this from happening by laws/regulations/marketing power anymore. If you try you will notice that you would need to do it IN ENTIRE WORLD. Nothing has that kind of power.

Tesla recieves a cash award from ARB.

www.greencarcongress.com/2007/05/arb_distributes.html#more

So wonderful to discover the existance of Tesla Motors. Lately I’ve been examining allkinds of alternative fuels, and it’s becoming clear that this direction is one of the best ways to go.
I also have been invoved in many upstart companies and like the approach you are taking. It is so exciting to read how you took your car around DC and got such positive reactions.
I believe that this is going to be like a dam breaking and once the electric vehicles hit the market that many companies will want to jump onboard. and soon after the market will flood with many brands of electric vehicles.
It will be interesting to see the effect on the world’s economy.
I respect your heart and direction for trying to do everything right and if Tesla Motors is a global success would be a great honor to Nikola Tesla, himself.
I am more involved in the bioneering myself, working with ways to make eco-friendly business more profitable then environmentally damaging practices

Would it be possible to visit the Tesla Motors Facility sometime? I have a friend who I am sure will place an order, if he hasn’t already.

It’s been 9 years since the GM EV-1 was killed. The Tesla replacement for this, the Whitestar, will come out at the end of 2009, hopefully. So 11 or 12 years wasted as far as EV’s go. This is the pertinent example (for this blog) of how the “the real powers that be” that run the world have done a terrible job-for a very long time. It looks like a lot of engineer/science types visit this blog. I wish they’d take a month break from the technical stuff and put their brainpower to work on “this topic”. We could use a halibut lot more smart people that thoroughly “understand the problem”.

Many thanks to those of you who have contributed to the various Tesla Motors blogs. Useful bits of information provided by Martin and the Tesla team combined with the spirited discussions playing out on the blogs has given me a much clearer picture of where EV technology currently stands. I have targeted 2009 as the year that I purchase my first electric car. I don’t know whether it will be a Tesla Whitestar, a Phoenix SUT, or some other vehicle. My plan is to buy the best car available at that time. I have added my name to the Phoenix waiting list, and I will do the same for the White Star (as soon Tesla posts a list). In short, I’m not playing favorites. I will leave the arguments over bettery technology to the experts, but if the Altair battery (or some other technology) does prove to be the breakthrough that we have been waiting for, I trust that Tesla will be nimble enough to capitalize on the situation. This is going to be fun to watch!

It seems to me that a range of a single charge is not the problem with Tesla’s roadster. 200 + miles per charge sounds great to me considering most cars to day only get 250-300 per fill up. The problem is not the limited range per charge, but that it takes hours to fully recharge the battery, compared to a quick 15 minute fill up at a gas station. There is a battery out there made by Altair nanotechnologies www.altairnano.com/, a publicly traded company. They have a proven battery technology with full recharge in 15 minutes and they just signed a contract with phoenix motors. It seems that this is the perfect solution to the “range problem.” It would be relatively easy to install electrical charging stations anywhere.

Since the first time I entered Tesla web site several months ago I always find something amazing.

I think Tesla people is working great in all directions to produce fast, powerful, beautiful and reliable electric cars.

Mr. Eberhard explains his ideas clearly so many of us may think building that electric car is not so difficult. But anyway if a new or different tecnology is available to improve Tesla’s performance I am sure they will consider it.

If there are any doubts regarding Tesla’s performance (or technology) I suppose soon they will put the Roadster in a track running for 200 miles so any one can see it by himself.

I just have one complain for Tesla: I don’t like much gasoline cars since I saw the Tesla Roadster.

Fast charge is a very viable option for fleets. A london taxi drives about 100 miles a day, give or take maybe 50. If they had 100-mile range EVs and a few specialized fast charging points they’d be fully set for entire electric fleet.
By the way, fast-charging does NOT necessarily require mods to existing power lines. You simply have to install a set of batteries at the charging station that are charged from the grid at appropriate rate, whatever it provides locally, and once you pull up your EV you can “pump” the charge over from stationary to your vehicle pack.
Of course, this means that you cant charge more than one car over a given time period, but such a solution would be sufficient for pizza delivery guys, taxis and other fleets.

The stationary storage does not need to use the most expensive batteries, lead-acid would do, or even flywheels.

To Anatoly.

Recharge infrastructure is pretty much already there. Not for 10 cars simultaneously charging, but for one or two. (in fact 10 cars simultaneously pumping gas is pretty big gas station). 300kW isn’t that much. That is within 3-phase electricity socket standards, so we don’t need any new regulations for sockets. And you don’t need that kind of power for beginning of the change. You could go with 20 minute charging and smaller batteries.

Gas-stations usually have access to high power electricity for various reasons (lights, pumps, garage, air condition, ovens if there is restaurant within station etc). There is no need to rebuild infrastructure, it is already there. Not for many cars simultaneously charging, but it is there. Problem would be to get gas-stations to serve it.

About safety of those sockets: just connect it and push a button or just let some automatic system to control that or something to start charging. You can make it very safe. Sockets for those are made so that you can’t put them on in wrong way. 600Volts doesn’t jump. Not far anyway. To get it to short-circuit you would need to do it intentionally. And that would be similar stupidity as checking your gasoline level with a lit match.

With that infrastucture you wouldn’t even need 60kWh battery. That 60kWh gives about 250 mile or 400 km range. You can settle for less. Even 30-40kWh battery would be enough, you would just need to charge it more often in long trips. Ten minute break in every 200 km would actually do some good.

Or settle to 20minutes for start of the change. Lets calculate for 30kWh recharge with 20minute charging: 20 minutes is one third of an hour so you need 90kW power. With 600 volts that is 150 Amps. Divided by three for each phase: 50 Amps. That’s almost household power. Gas station should not have any problems serving that. 40 minute break for twice that big battery (bigger than Tesla) from empty to full. After driving 400 km straight you would want to take a break anyway and maybe drink a cup of coffee or eat something before continuing.

Eventually electricity infrastructure would need rewiring anyway. For millions of cars recharging in their homes and on the road current distribution networks are not enough. No matter how you calculate it. With or without fast charging.

Which btw brings in an idea. There are lots of restaurants, pizza-places, Motels, Mc Donalds etc. in the roadside. EV-owners club or something could make servicing contract with some of those places, so that EV owner could get their cars recharged there for a price which they do not pay directly, but that club does, and then annually charges members for services.

Electricity is cheap, so even if you pay ten or twenty times as much for occassional roadside charging as you would for home recharging you would still be in the winning side by a large margin compared to gasoline. And for that price electric companies would scream for joy and happily rewire those places for occassional high peak power. and because those places give other services too that would bring them more customers. That would be win-win-win situation. Everybody wins. But only after there are enough members in that club that cost for it is not too big.

Eventually gas-stations would start to lose customers and then they would be forced to serve EV customers or die. After that market powers take control and then solution emerges naturally.

Telsa ESS is good _for now_. It isn’t good very long. You need fast recharging capability to make it an permanent solution. I don’t care which company eventually does those batteries. You just need to have that capability.

Fantastic! Creating T.E.G. is a smart move. Some commentors have expressed reservations, but any action has it’s dangers. Like most here, I feel this is a step in the right direction. The precise alacrity with which Tesla is moving (at least as it appears from the outside) is very refreshing.

Thank you, Malcolm Wilson, for this info:
“Think will exclude batteries from the purchase price, and charge drivers a monthly fee to “rent” them instead of buying fuel. That way, the car can price around $16,000 to $17,000, and drivers will pay less per month than they’d spend on fuel and maintenance for a regular car.”
This is exactly one of the comments I wanted to reiterate in this post. While not needed for marketing the roadster, this could be important for the White Star and later models (as has been suggested in past entries). Today’s hybrids suffer from poorly conceived comparisons to conventional cars, often reported by the press. While Tesla cannot completely relegate poor logic and journalism, they can make it easier for consumers and others to see clearly and compare properly. While a critic may argue that a BEV without the B is not comparable to an ICE car without gas. Technologically and financially an empty battery and an empty gas tank are not comparable. Ultimately, it will come down to a financial decision for many people. Vehicles are best compared, not on initial price, but based on a driving range (which includes intial cost, consumables, and maintenance). For a simple initial cost comparison, albeit less accurate comparison, EV’s and ICE’s should be compared without battery and without gas to be closest to apples-to-apples. There have been numerous examples of poor comparison’s on this blog alone (often done by BEV advocates no less) where the BEV is considered to have little or no value when the battery dies. Tesla’s best way to combat this is with intelligent marketing and being as informative as possible. They have done an excellent job of both so far. I believe marketing the White Star with a battery-less selling price and an estimated cost/mile to own (including battery cost and mean use assumptions) would be another wise move. The battery could still be sold with the vehicle as an option. The transaction could be a car and battery purchase, car purchase with battery lease, or car and battery lease. This would put the market evolution more in line with that of copiers in their transition from analog to digital. I think this is the market most similar to what the automobile’s transition from ICE to EV would be. Technological advancements will change the dynamic for car ownership, particularly advancements in batteries.

A lot of discussion is concentrated on battery lifetime, with 100+K miles and/or 10 years of use from a pack. I would much prefer a pack that lasts half as long and costs at least 40% less, trusting that there will be a better/cheaper pack to replace it with. Of course, the battery pack’s range needs to be adequate for the application. So, promote the White Star as a $40,000 (or whatever the traget is without batteries) vehicle and let TEG’s products be compared separately to the cost of gasoline, which could very well be $4 or $5 when the White Star is ready to be sold. This will better emphasize the benefits of EV’s. In addition, for those conservative folks that don’t trust new technology but like to purchase their cars, they could buy the car and lease the battery. They would have a better comfort level doing this than purchasing $20K-$30k worth of battery.

I’m very excited that Tesla will most likely be developing as smaller pack for THINK. As I’ve lobbied previously, I believe diversity in battery pack capacity is essential to broadening Tesla’s market appeal. The forming of TEG should only facility this type of developement and best of all a lot of the cost will be born by others, allowing Tesla to still focus on developing other aspects of their business and products.

There was one comment about a limited marine application as a possible TEG market. Although battery only electric boats have very limited appeal with today’s technology, I think a series hybrid arrangement for 28′ - 40′ cruisers and expresses might be a great application. Those boats typically have 2 large ICE engines plus an ICe generator. A 150KWh-200KWn battery plus an efficient generator may have an advantage.

Dear Martin Eberhard,

When reading about splendid companies as Tesla, TH!NK and your ESS I still haven’t read about the possibliliy of implementing EXCHANGABLE batteries. Well, maybe it is just me not being properly informed (I am in fashion business - so I just follow the progresses in your industry from the sideline) - but please let me expose my idea in a few lines:

Instead of being dependent on recharging your electrical vehicle it would make any electrical vehicle much more mobile if the whole battery is changed at a energy station; standard battery sizes and applying systems will be required so it will be possible to drive your car to the energy station, stop on top of a ‘underground’ pit. Than a hatch underneath the car is opened automatically, and some robot arms take out the battery underneath the car and put in a new, fully charged battery.

This system has the follwing advantages:
- no need to keep the vehicle off the road for serveral hours when out off electricty
- the vehicle owner does not necesserily own his/her battery - but rents it. Therefore no major (and sudden) cost when the battery of the vehicle is getting ‘old
- batteries will be checked for flaws at the energy station for every exchange thus enduring batteries’ life time.
- as long as the stock of batteries at the fuel station is big enough the empty batteries do not need to be recharged directly after delivery at the energy station, thus being perfectly fitted to be made an integral part of wind energy.

I know that this exchange system requires more than 1 battery per vehicle - making it an expensive system. But when batteries get cheaper the above mentioned advantages will knock out the extra costs.

So what is important is now already to think of how to adapt the construction of batteries so that these can be taken out off the car and put back easily and automatically.

Well, if this idea is something new (probably not…) of course I will be interested in being a part of further development.

All the best,

Erik Grootveld
[Contact details deleted]

Everything grand has been produced by the providential intersection of innovative Supply into unfulfilled Demand. Great Leaps can happen as the result of accident, pursuing grander scales, a persevering love of beauty or just plain ingenuity. It all comes down to making a product that answers the question in yourself that other people are asking also. In this case the question is freedom, pure freedom from the demons that impede our movement, the guilefull suppliers of a dwindling engery source who are seeking to squeeze every advantage and every dollar from our pocket while that supply lasts. The Noble and Inspired Men who seek to free us from these demons shall recieve more than financial rewards, they will gain a place in history above mundane kings and past presidents as the valiant defenders of free trade and our planet’s future. NO person shall remember the names of the presidents of big oil or any Saudi prince, because they were the men who squandered their power and position. TESLA however, will be tatooed on many hearts for giving us back our freedom.

MY SUGGESTION: THINK SMALLER!! this technology in a motorcycle has a much larger and varied application worldwide than automobiles. Imagine a bank of charging stations in which you park, hook up, and swipe a credit card for a recharge while at work or on travel. IN China or India there would be an awsome demand!! and save a huge amount of oil.

I want to thank Anatoly again for describing a huge problem of the quick recharge issue of batteries and EVs. While a quick recharge in under 10 minutes might be a selling point for laptop manufacturers or flashlights, the issue of simply moving the raw energy through electrical wires is the limiting factor for vehicle recharge times. And this is a point that has been argued so much that I am getting nearly tired of saying it over and over again, except that many individuals don’t seem to “get it”. Or new people show up thinking they have the promised land available if we will but go see it. Thank you for your patience at explaining this concept one more time.

I, too, wish that EVs would have the ability to make extra-long range drives (such as over 1000 miles or more), what is important at the moment is the ability to get *something* put into mass production at all. Except for golf carts and some cheap things off road mini-bikes, I don’t see any mass marketed electric vehicles on the road. And there is a niche that these vehicles can serve using today’s technology and not some unproven technology that has yet to enter production in large quantities.

Tesla Motors has to decide where to draw the line and invest its money into technology. While they have done things like come up with a unique motor of their own design, and have spent some serious R&D into the ESS, it is not their role to invent everything that is in their vehicle, nor to provide venture capital for unproven ideas when there are existing products that can more or less accomplish the task at hand…. to mass produce a Roadster. Martin is 100% correct that this needs to be the primary focus of his company for now and not get side tracked into financing future technologies that may divert their attention from getting the Roadster built in the first place.

At some point in the future, I presume that many others are like me in this, hope Tesla will be flush with cash and be able to provide venture capital for wild and crazy ideas that can improve their products in the future. Hoping that Tesla will pick up some technology and run with it , creating a market for that product when none currently exists otherwise is not a wise path for Tesla unless there is absolutely no other way they can get their product shipping soon.

Although I generally agree with Mr. Horning in all that he says above (and, like him, thank Anatoly for once more patiently explaining something that I and others have grown tired of re-hashing), I don’t think that it is right to say that there are no other “mass-produced” EVs in the world (or even the US) today, and cite the Roadster as therefore one of the first attempts to do a mass-produced EV.

First, “mass-production” isn’t tens or hundreds of cars — it’s thousands, tens or hundreds of thousands, or even millions. The methods that are used even for hundreds or thousands of units often won’t scale up economically for millions of units. By that yardstick, it is most definitely a true statement, to say that there is no “mass-produced” EV.

BUT, if you are going to call the Roadster a mass-produced vehicle, then I think you also have to say that ZAP’s Xebra qualifies on that score. It’s available and being sold, with “deliveries in process,” not to mention several dealers lined up across several states, according to ZAP’s website. It is clear that “ordinary people” have been given the chance to test drive these cars, and that the vehicles will address the needs of many, despite their limited range and speed in comparison with the Roadster or even ZAP’s own ZAP-X concept car. Although less than full-feature automobiles (and costing much less, too), they are much more than golf carts and mini-bikes.

At this stage, I think that “the more, the merrier.” There is room for ZAP, Tesla, and many other players now. Frankly, I’d love to see how a Xebra might do with the Think version of the ESS. I’m not too hopeful about ZAP purchasing or licensing Tesla ESS technology, but perhaps individuals will be able to purchase the mini ESSs directly, which they could use to “halibut” their Xebras or other EVs.

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Editor’s Mirth: Ah, the always entertaining halibut filter  

To AES

You said: “I think the recently announced “gas station” project is a really great way of doing this.”

What “gas station” project? What announcement? Where? Who? Any details?

Think and Tesla are obviously on the same page with regard to the potential of EV technology, but are addressing opposite ends of the consumer spectrum. It would make good sense for the two companies to merge or form a partnership in some way to appeal together to the global market. All-electric vehicles do seem the most practical methodology to achieve emissions free transport; and, rather than rivals, Think and Tesla could achieve much greater economies of scale by a merger.

If Altair Nano batteries or any of the other (for the moment) vapor-ware batteries like Firefly and Panasonic, etc. are all so great, then why did THINK approached Tesla for thier ESS?

Those Norwegians are pretty smart. Maybe they shopped around a bit before dropping 43M.

NiMH EV??? Noooooooooo!

TEG, you’ve been with us since the very first blog back in July 2006 and are one of the very few who have posted regular comments.

This is like hearing that an old friend is having a sex-change.

Please keep all your fishy bits entact and keep the name TEG.

P.S. is teg a suitable compromise?

##Malcolm Wilson wrote on May 26th, 2007 at 8:55 am

##This is why commercial charging stations will never take off. EV owners charging up slowly at home is the equivalent of today’s ##motorists being able to brew their own gasoline at home slowly overnight for a lot less than $3 a gallon.

Malcolm, never say never. I realize that there are definite hurdles that need to be crossed to impliment a quick charge station, but if a quick charge battery is available on an electric car that can be safely quick charged, the stations will likely appear. If you build it they will come;) However, this is obviously not tesla’s current direction, and may never be. Martin has stated in a previous blog that their eventual goal is to have a battery with a large enough storage capacity to travel the long trips rather than one having quick charge ability. Maybe with proven technology they’ll change their mind, maybe not. if not, then we’ll all just have to make a shift in habbits. Plugging in at home (or at work) rather than driving to a charge station.

To Timo and other fast charge enthusiasts:

My key disagreement with you is that you seems do not appreaciate enough extremely huge inertia of infrastaructure. All the solutions you discussing implicitly assume that electricity distribution/generation network already exist WITH ADEQUATE POWER to feed mass market EV transportation. But every home has just at best 5 kW to 10 kW. Gas station for all its lights, pumps etc would consume about 100 kW total and hardly much larger. Large strores lights will be in the same ballpark of 100 kW etc. So it boils down to that in residential area no single socket could sustain more than 20 kW at best as of today. So ALL awailable electric wiring in residential area could sustain 10 kW to 20 kW at best per single wired socket. Also in residential area I never seen much of 3 phase sockets anyway freely available. This is a special case. So by assuming fast charge available as frequent as gas station you assuming at the least rebuilding ALL (literally every single wire replaced everythere) the electrical wiring. I never seen in my life that anything in this world except large scale war or catastrophy with thousands or even millions of victims could force people to do such a scale rebuilding you are assuming. It will disrupt every household, business etc in a residential area by many months renovation projects. It is cheaper to demolish everything and start from scratch.

So to have fast EV charging stations we have to have industrial level electricity infrastructure. It is absolutely different thing from the goverment regulations point of view etc. So even if technology exist you would certainly run into whole may be stupid and overconservative from your point of view land use regulations. People are not as of today allowed to build residential infrastructure in the industrial areas. Large power density electricity you imply for fast charging is considered dangerous enough for regular people based on 100 years of accumulated experience that even extremely conservative regulations strictly forbid use of it in residential areas.

From a technological feasibility point of view you are correct about possible solution for 10 min fast charge service. You are also correct in statement that without fast charge it would be unlikely to lure mass of regular people of today with the ahbits molded by gasoline into positive appreciation of EV and mass switch to it. I also can understand your real desire to promote EV to mass scale so your desperation to get fast electric charge for EV available somehow very quickly.

But social, business etc realities are not in the position that fast charge infrastructure could happen faster than evolutionary meaning 10 to 20 years scale at least. Only sudden catastrophic severe material inavailability of oil could spawn the fast charge infrastructure quickly as you desire. I do not think circumstances justify that such a thing would happen.
Now if we are talking 20 to 50 years scale it would be hard to predict what mix of technologies would serve transportation needs. Sure it will not be oil and hardly it would be any fossil fuels. I believe we would see geterogenous mixture of:
- battery EV with fast charge like 10 min or faster,
- solar power mass scale,
- CO2 removal from the air and from exausts of different still remaining heat engines,
- fuel cell engines,
- cellulosic ethanol
- increasep use of public transportations based on electric rail systems of all sorts, including trains to move EV to save range
- synthesis of gasoline and kerosene fuels by advanced photosysntetic facilities,
- varieties of nuclear fission electric generators (unfortunately from my point of view)
- geothermal electric stations
- wind power generators
- still remaining big percentage of today’s energetic and transportation infratructure

Some interesting option that far away in the future I guess would be to have say 40% or higher efficient solar paint covering road surface and EV opaque surfaces. EV in addition to batteries should have inductive remote charger from road to vehicle. Solar paint could cover some area around freeway too. Altogether the point is to feed sustained electric power all EV on road dissipate replenished by inductive charging taking energy from the solar paint of road surface itself. So EV would use internal electric storage for acceleration/deseleration and to cover the difference between available energy from road and sustained driving. During night EV would use battery, but during day it may in effect even increase its charge while moving. Such a thing would be freedom of motion as U.S. people like it in extreme. Timo and similar people would like to have it much everythere in the world I guess. Just a futuristic fantasy on my part.

You really never know where this will go. Since the space race appears to be back on….

I was just watching a show where they were saying that Russia and the US and possibly China are now in a race for the moon for 3He. Both the US and Russia are hoping to have a permenantly manned mining facility on the moon by 2020. Apparently 3He makes clean fusion reasonable and it si not radioactive. The key here is that neutrons are not liberated during the fusion reaction and that keeps the integrity of the reactor intact.

So TEG could team up with SpaceX, or SpaceX may be a player in getting this all working. Of course with control of the future power needs of the world in play this will probably consume huge expenditures from lots of players.

They made comments like “enough clean power to generate electricity for mankind for the next 1000 years.”

Ironically this is sort of like solar power in that the 3He comes from solar flares and has been deposited on the moons surface over millions of years. On earth the only source of 3He is from our nuclear program and it is extremely rare. Maybe someday we will be able to directly get this form of Solar power by actively collecting 3He from the Solar winds cast off by the Sun.

So batteries now and who knows what in the future

With all the talk of well to well efficiency, has anyone looked at the dust to dust report from CNW? I just read about this in Car and Driver. No bias there

cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/

It shows the total amount of energy expended to design, manufacture, distribute and drive a vehicle for 100K miles.

In this case because of all the new technology and front end engineering costs, and lower production numbers the energy cost per Prius is actually more than that of an SUV like a Tahoe which relies on older long since amortized engineering.

Obviously there has got to be an inflection point somewhere along the way, and this includes energy from all sources including the electricity to run the computers the engineers use to design a car and the AC to keep them cool while doing it. It also covers the power to heat the furnaces that melt the metal, run the plants that create the plastics and tires.

I’d hate to see the intial numbers on the Tesla Roadster according to this report, since it really is a production proof of concept and is EXTREMELY front loaded with engineering costs, but you can be sure that other manufacturers will point to reports like this to justify continuing the same ole same ole.

To Anatoly.

Is it really true that US has that bad electrical infrastructure? That could slow things down. Or are you talking about some other country? In Finland we can have over 20kW wirings _in homes_. After all that is just 230Vx3×35A. That is no biggie. Of course using all that power to charge Tesla would mean that nothing else is running at that time. And if Telsa is going to have three hour recharging in home that is what it needs. 20kW.

Just checked what it would cost to have kV -scale connection to grid, and that is surprisingly cheap. Only about 300€/month. Rewiring would cost a lot more, but that is one-time cost.

But anyway. With ranges approaching 200 miles you don’t need many “charging stations” along the road. Only about one in every 150 miles. For right prize I would be very surprised if electric companies wouldn’t agree to rewire those places.

And just to make sure if this haven’t been clear in my messages: I don’t expect this change to happen immediately. My only argue is that Telsa needs to be aware that this fast charging _will be_ necessity in future. And as such needs to be addressed somehow.

Change takes time. Ten maybe twenty years even if you start right now. Probably a lot more in reality. EV:s wont make so incredible breakthru that it replaces gasoline cars just like that. People buy cars only about once in every five to ten years, so even if you manage to replace *all* production cars with EV:s it would still take time.

What I would like to see is few recharge-stations for few EV:s in large main roads so that you could get to place A to over 400miles away place B without using some other means of transportation. I bet there are ways to make that happen within next ten years.

Anatholy:

What is your take on ‘accumulation based’ fast charging?

I agree with your comments regarding uncapable infrastructure but what about some flywheel, ultracapacitor bank or smth. similar storages of power. They could use existing infrastructure to slowly charge up and then quickly discharge into a car. Of course, there would be maximum number of possible daily discharges but even now petrol stations are not allways fully occupied. Such charging would be much more expensive than slow nightly charging but some may be prepared to pay for the convenience?

Anatoly:
You are still missing the fact that you can get 100KW from a station that is fed by 10KW line IF THAT STATION HAS ENERGY STORAGE SYSTEMS. Flywheels, lead-acid batteries, new long-cycle life batteries, ultracaps, whatever lasts better.

Ideal station: solar roof with flywheels underground. Definitely no grid infrastructure problems. Yes, it can only serve a few “fast-charge cars” until it has to recharge, but its perfect for positioning somewhere in the middle of highway through a desert, where there arent many cars coming frequently anyway.

re: A123 batteries, I’m skeptical of their thermal dependency, especially for power and energy density. If you read the background on the Killacycle electric dragster, which uses A123 cells, they mention several times how performance suffered at lower temperatures. On the plus side, the tests seem to indicate much greater stability (i.e. they don’t explode).

the CNW report is debunked six ways to sunday three times over, by a lot of authorities, including a small company called Toyota. just google on “CNW hummer debunked” or something

NiMH EV said, “Also, these infrastructure building ideas seem a bit premature given the small volume of Roadsters coming next year. Perhaps when the Whitestar plant gets going it will become more of a need. Not that there is anything wrong with planning early…”

But as I and others have pointed out, Tesla isn’t the only game in town. By the time WhiteStar comes out, we may already have a significant number of lesser EVs on the road, which could at least benefit from the Tesla “fast charge” stations, even before significant numbers of more affordable Teslas hit the streets. Frankly, I think the broader development and deployment of Tesla’s “fast charge” technology (still glacially slow charge, relative to gasoline refills) is a smart move for them, along with the establishment of TEG, because those enterprises give them significant financial incentive to help OTHERS succeed and let a thousand EV flowers bloom. This can only help consumers and the environment. If the Teslans profit in the process, good on them.

As far as the conversion/repurposing/new construction of electrical substations for EV quick charge use, all I can say is that I drive by them in any number of downtown and suburban areas that enjoy good quality of life and outrageously high property values, so I think a good case can be made that they might not be opposed nearly as much as they might have been in the past, especially if they bring the additional benefit of EV quick charge. If safety is a concern, run thick cables under the substation walls and fences, and establish the quick charge bays right outside those barriers — this approach would be especially appropriate for retrofitting existing substations. I also think that quick charge stations will tend to be needed only along or near major arterials and interstate highways, to serve the long-distance driver, allowing substation construction/conversion projects to sidestep most NIMBY objections. Most neighborhoods don’t want gas stations in their midst, either, at least in the residentially zoned areas.

kert said, “Yes, it can only serve a few ‘fast-charge cars’ until it has to recharge, but its perfect for positioning somewhere in the middle of highway through a desert, where there arent many cars coming frequently anyway.”

Which desert would that be? The highway fills up fairly quickly on the run through the desert from the LA area to Vegas, for example. It would seem to me that you would need to make sure that enough cars come through on an average basis to pay back the construction, maintenance, and operation costs, while yielding some profit for the owner, but not so many cars during rush hour, that the facilities are depleted early on. How many desert roads fit that description, I wonder, and how much would a station such as you are describing cost?

As a European car enthusiast and automotive engineer who is also into EV/Hybrid vehicles (My everyday car I drive is a modified Honda Insight) I’d like to ask a couple of questions of the Tesla concept:

Will the car handle? i.e. go round a series of corners… Will the ‘throttle’ be adjustable allowing a driving experience like the good European cars it is compared to above… the 911/Lamborghini/Lotus. In the tech specs there is no mention of the F:R weight distribution. This is key to one part of it’s success not just the ‘green’ part or the straight line drag racing aspect only being mentioned.

Will the battery be allowed to be fully discharged during use? As this could seriously limit the life of the battery if a 95+ percentile user was to use the car (80-100 mile commute each way?). A commuter in Germany famously saved ~20 minutes from his commute time going from a 911 Turbo to McClaren F1, cars here get driven a little harder as speed limits are higher or unrestricted). I am not saying the Tesla will see this sort of action but it could and you may have unhappy customers if the battery packs only lasts 3-4 years at $25k a pop or the range when ‘driven’ is a lot lower. What I am trying to say is does the battery charging technology protect the battery for a longer life by limiting performance? i.e only use 30-70% of the available store.

With peak oil fast approaching and the rest of the world seemingly completely ignoring it… I am glad there are few trying to push the envelope and show there is a possible alternative to fossil fuelled vehicles.

By the way, all, one point that seemed to get missed here is that spinning the ESS off to TEG gives Bernard Tse a little more latitude in exploring some of those technologies we’ve been talking about. Martin hinted at it by mentioning that he must remind Bernard from time to time that the Roadster is still Job One. But the Tesla Energy Group will want to remain profitable with or without the Roadster. While the ESS was being developed for the Roadster the objective was to get something to market quickly and resources were thin, so readily available technologies were used in creative ways. But that’s done. Now that TEG is a subsidiary of Tesla with a 40+ million dollar deal already under their belt, expect to see some innovation!

Cheers, Benzebub! Dwindling reserves, political instability, foreign reliance, polution, carcinogens, global warming, … ho-hum … WHAT? BEER cost MORE? Grog not happy, must find better way.

Have you given any thought to creating “portable battery pack stations” whereby you can slip in charged packets at stations for the car. I see a problem in the future of having cars waiting to be charged at station points. It would be far easier now to make design to allow for a slip in unit. This way new technology of batteries could be updated and used immediately in the field. The battery technology is improving but I can recall when I made my electric motorcycle in the late 60’s with two large lead acid batteries that had a life of 3 years and at that time I developed regenerative braking and found it to be very effective on downhill runs to keep batteries alive. The unit had a built in transformer that would trickle charge the batteries overnight which worked fine. Make sure the new batteries have a long term life. Anyway good luck on your project.

It seems to me, the more I learn about alternative automotive vehicles, that every one in the alternative industry that discovers and invents a new product that helps run electric and other powered vehicles, always sells out the company to a big auto corporation like FORD or GM. PIVCO sold to Ford, the gentleman who developed the great batteries in the electric car sold controling shares to GM. What gives. Hasn’t anybody heard the stories of how Ford puchased the rights to a motor that ran 100 mls on 1 gallon of gas, and subsequentally shelved the information so it would never again see the light of day. (this wa back in the 60’s - or 70″s). Small inventors of alternative products need to protect their technology from the money and power of BIG OIL and BIG AUTO who are just going to destroy it. Or maybe I am being nieve and do not realize these little guys want the same thing - big rewards as in $$$ and screw the environment and the earth’s people. I just don’t get it? Any comments welcome.

I imagine what he means is that he is happy to sell ESSs to manufacturers of properly developed cars like the TH!NK but would not be happy to sell them to the Indian makers of the G-Wiz, a car which could never pass any proper safety tests. It isn’t good to associate your brand with poorly thought out concepts, quite apart from the commercial risk when these failed designs inevitably bomb in the marketplace.

I was hoping the prices would get more reasonable, then I saw this:
“On June 15, Tesla Motors will raise the price of the 2008 Tesla Roadster to $98,000, up from $92,000.”

Shouldn’t they be going DOWN in price?

well..good luck!..
Is stock available and how much?
your effort will make the world a better place and if you need me to head up you product wing..send me a email so i can send you my info. to help you get production started on a production line like i did on a chevy chevette line in delaware..
signed
auto entasiast

I had mentioned “portable battery packs” to be used and transfered at sites. Specifically the packs could be used as boosters and tied in a space behind the main battery area. Many times one needs a short boost for distance. I noted that it would be difficult to take out the batteries on the car but booster packs would help. What one does is pay for the use when car is purchased (spare booster battery).
Saw car in Danville, California and looking forward to seeing the completed car!

It seems so obvious- build SOLAR CELLS into the horizontal body panels! That idea’s public domain. Potentially, in some duty cycles, you could have infinite “miles per gallon”! Not as green as you may think, though- last I heard no solar cell has yet been made that will produce more electricity in its life than it toook to make it.

Bernie,

Here are a pair of ESS-like portable battery packs.

www.thehouseofpower.us/prices.htm

The Titannia I has 600 lithium cells and the Titannia II has 1200 lithium cells similar to the ESS. They use no liquid cooling.

The according to Dan (the EE) the makers are planning on the next version to go to Lithium Cobalt or even jump to Lithium Polymer

This type of application is another potential offshoot product for TEG or …

These are used to power the new professional digital cinema recoding decks when away from a stable power source..

Hmm, time for an Open Source ESS.

This industry needs a Linux equivalent type of disruptive technology that no-one can bottle-up, own and kill.

Imagine what an EV1 could be doing with this sort of technology.

When can I buy one of these cars? Do you need additional venture capital?

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Editor’s response: If you live in the continental U.S., you can reserve a 2008 model year Tesla Roadster here: