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It’s been a few days now since news of the new Tesla Motors CEO hit the streets. There’s been a lot of coverage of this change – some good, some bad; some sympathetic, some not. A minute before midnight this Saturday, San Jose Mercury News writer Matt Nauman posted a blog with the earliest leak of the CEO transition, apparently quoting from a letter I wrote to our customers. The first response to Nauman’s blog was this Saturday Morning Doozy:
“One reason Eberhard was probably fired was because he started fibbing to his company, in addition to the public. This was the yokel who originally claimed 250 miles of range “no matter what,” a preposterous claim that clearly marked him as a prevaricator. He also fudged on the price of all those 6871 battery cells his car uses. I came to think of Eberhard as an unreliable version of PT Barnum.”
Ouch! I have to assume that the commenter has never attempted to do anything that was really difficult – something that has significant risk and where not everything goes perfectly. I just hope that his inflammatory speculation is not a harbinger of how my legacy at Tesla Motors will be written.
Those of you who follow Tesla Motors know a bit about me and about the other personalities involved. You know that I have maintained an air of openness about Tesla Motors – publishing more details about our bold vision and progress than any car company has ever published before. I have shown off our technology even as I have shared our setbacks with you. I have shared with you my thinking and the math behind it, and many of you have scrutinized my reasoning. Whenever my thinking has proven to be faulty, I have readily admitted it and given credit to whomever corrected me.
To be fair, every negative posting about the Tesla Motors CEO transition has been followed by someone defending me, and I do appreciate this support very much.
I am often asked by reporters, what at Tesla Motors is our most difficult problem. They are usually fishing for specific technological problem – battery capacity or safety, building custom motors, troubles with transmissions, manufacturing paintable carbon fiber body panels, etc. These problems, and a dozen more, are indeed tough. But my answer has always been this: Every one of these problems is solvable. So is lining up all our suppliers for timely factory delivery. So is creating and stocking our Tesla Stores and their service and parts departments. So is the maze of state, federal, and international regulations that apply to us. Layer that with the need to start development of our second car program (with its new factory) before we begin shipping our first car. I’m good at solving such hard problems. What makes Tesla Motors particularly difficult is the sheer number of these tricky problems that we must simultaneously solve. We’re not just juggling a lot of balls. We’re juggling knives and chainsaws and burning things. We have to catch every one of them, and we have to catch them by their handles.
I initiated a CEO search many months ago as Tesla Motors has grown in size and complexity beyond twice the size and at least five times the complexity of any organization I have run before. I was becoming concerned that my own inexperience with large organizations and operations would soon become a limitation for the company’s success, and I set the machinery of change in motion in advance of any problems.
Michael Marks is an early investor, a Signature 100 customer, and someone I have known and admired for many years. He has given me management advice and recruitment leads over the course of Tesla’s history, and I suggested to him some months back that he might make a great CEO here. Flush with his well-earned success at Flextronics, Michael certainly does not need a job here or anyplace else, and he indicated early on that he was not interested in a long-term CEO role.
It came as a bit of a surprise to me that Michael was willing to join Tesla Motors as interim CEO just as we are getting the Tesla Roadster into production. His skill and experience with operations, manufacturing, and supply chain management are particularly useful to us right now, as we transition from a purely R&D company to one with significant manufacturing and operations components. His unexpected availability was too good for the Tesla Motors Board to pass by, so they decided to move rather quickly.
This means that I will spend less time with Tesla Store plans, performance reviews, purchase order approvals, board meeting minutes, and the like - and more time with engineering and manufacturing to get Tesla Roadsters on the road, and also more time with you, our customers. Honestly, this sounds like a lot more fun to me. 
Michael and I will work out the exact details of my new role in the coming weeks. I plan to focus on our cars rather than on which kind of latte machine we should have in our stores.
I trust that this change will be good for Tesla Motors, but I am not going to kid you about how I feel: Tesla Motors and specifically the Tesla Roadster have been my dream – no, my obsession – for five years now. What Co-Founder Marc Tarpenning and I set out to do five years ago was generally considered to be impossible: impossible to make a decent electric car, impossible to start a new car company, impossible for an upstart car company to build a car that meets Department of Transportation safety standards, impossible to find anyone willing to invest in such a venture.
But somehow we did it. Not absolutely perfectly; We have had our share of setbacks, feature creep, cost overruns, schedule slips. But every time we were knocked over, we got back up again and kept running. I am damned proud of what we have built here at Tesla Motors, and though with hindsight I might have done better, I am not ashamed of any of our setbacks. Our overriding philosophy has always been to deliver quality cars as soon as we can, rather than to meet a schedule that might compromise the cars.
And we have accomplished one more big thing: We got the world to re-think electric cars. Far from dead, far from punishment cars, electric cars are now widely seen as the exciting future of the automobile. The driving public is demanding that Big Auto rethink its strategy beyond gasoline, rethink its commitment to hydrogen, and rethink its decades-old truism that driving green requires driving a compromise. Even Bob Lutz over at GM has admitted that early news of the Tesla Roadster played a big part in the creation of the Chevy Volt.
We have come a long way, and here we are on the eve of the Tesla Roadster’s start of production. Yes, I am sad to pass the Tesla baton, even if it is the best thing for Tesla Motors.
Martin Eberhard
Founder & President of Technology
Tesla Motors
p.s. I’ve had a few requests for the slides that go with my presentation to the Motor Press Guild last week. Here’s a link to the video of my presentation and you can view the slides here. (Sorry, we did not included videos that are part of the slide deck.)
Martin,
Congrats on your success, and once again thank you for your transparency in your ventures. The critics have not had much meat to sink their teeth in to regarding Tesla Motors, and indeed, the future of electric EVs in America is looking better than ever. I am saving my pennies for the first dependable sedan to market; hopefully Whitestar.
Just FYI, the scathing comment on San Jose Mercury News writer Matt Nauman’s blog was written by Kent Beuchert, rumored to be a sock puppet for big oil. I’ve seen that sort of hostile commentary from him in other places on the internet. His sole purpose for existence is to pour heaps of criticism on any green technologies, especially ones that show promise.
It’s best to view him as a celebrity views the paparazzi… extremely annoying, but at least it means you’re famous
# Martin wrote:
## The first response to Nauman’s blog was …
The blog quote Martin mentions was posted by someone using the name “Kent Beuchert “.
Those of us who read a lot of EV blogs notice many postings by someone using similar pseudonyms making disparaging remarks to those trying to advance the EV industry.
Kent’s profile here:
www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A3OQV8OX2SQ08H
says his nickname is “thebike”
If you take a trip back into the Tesla blog last year you may note that (possibly) the same person appears to have gone on an Anti-Tesla tirade before.
www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=27
Back in that blog the postings came from
“Kerry Biker” and “Ken Beauchrt”
I suspect that “Kerry Beauchrt” = “Kerry Biker” = “Ken Beauchrt” = “Kent Beauchrt” and whomever that is seems to be on a mission to ridicule EV fanatics.
Here are a few more examples of rants from this “Beauchrt” character:
www.autoblog.com/2006/10/31/sema-ed-begley-jr-says-sema-can-help-with-electric-vehicles-i/
www.cw.ua.edu/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticleComments&ustory_id=c738240e-cec3-4e9d-b53b-a03609c49e63
If that isn’t enough just do a web search on “Beauchrt EV” and see what I mean.
Quote from the old blog last year:
# Martin wrote on October 1st, 2006 at 6:56 pm
## Geez, take a pill, Kerry (Biker/Beauchrt)!
## You discredit yourself when you insult me, my team here at Tesla Motors, and our good customers
Don’t let this guy keep upsetting you, Martin. He seems to have it in for the whole industry.
Good choice Martin. Life is to short to waist on things you don’t want to do (picking out latte makers). It gives me greater confidence in future TM models knowing you will be intimately involved.
By the way, thanks for the blog posting… Classic Martin.
Hopefully your role change will also give you more opportunity to keep the outsiders watching the public blogs tuned in to your ongoing forward progress.
I wonder what the doubters like Kent Beuchert are going to say when the car is actually on the roads and a success and the next model is off the drawing board and into prototyping. I suppose it’ll be more of the same. “It’ll never work and if it works it’ll never sell and if it sells it’ll break down every five minutes and all the directors are evil con-men just out to rip-off your grandmother.” Some people see the glass half-full and some see it half-empty. Ignore them.
Martin,
I’m glad you will continue doing what you’ve been doing so well thus far: Developing great electric vehicle technology. Congratulations on your decision and I wish you luck in your search for a new CEO who can take responsibility for the other things that you clearly recognize are needed to make your company a complete success.
Go Tesla!
Martin has become and is a personification of Tesla Motors. Replacing him from CEO position does look kinda disturbing, from the outside at least. But then, CEO position is a bussines thing. He really is more then just a CEO. He is a spark that started the whole thing. Maybe his position should just be “Martin”?:)
In Martin we trust.
Just read a facinating article in the UK Telegraph Magazine which led me to this website. I m pleased that someone has taken the initiative to design and actually build a high performance electric car. It even appears to have the thumbs up from the UK Top Gear team whom are extremely anti anything the does not have a V12 gas guzzling engine. My only dissapointment was that it would not be available in the UK for the time being. I do believe this is somwhat short sighted as the average traveling distance for UK travellers must be alot less that those in in th USA and surely more appropriate. It appears that this car would travel from London to Birmingham and back on one charge, our two largest cities, something the people of the USA can only dream of!.
Please re-think your strategy as I believe the alternatives are not what the people of the UK are looking for, but your car and future cars are!
How many light bulbs did Edison try before he could actually sell one. Reinventing the wheel is tough. Stay flexable and adapt to the situation, but most important keep grinding it out.
I can’t believe some halibut said that about Martin. But then, haters do their job well: talk halibut. It’s been my pleasure to take part in new technology and boast information to my friends as I’ve watched this company grow. From the inside out… growth and technology, Mr Eberhard has been pressing us to stay focused, not for his dream but for our national future.
Any person who would say any different must not be paying attention to the objectives of the company.
Simply put, he has had a large hand in putting one of the sexiest cars I’ve ever seen or imagined on the road… period. I’ll have a Tesla Roadster for myself some day (God willing). Till then, I’ll gladly admire Martin Eberhard’s efforts as he quietly zips down the street in his well earned, fully electric, state of the art, Tesla Roadster…
To John Kirk:
Wellcome to the blog! Tesla Motors doesn’t sell into UK or Europe or anywhere except continental America. Not because they wouldn’t want to but because for the time being they can’t. They have limited resources and they are trying to maximize on them. Different countries all have different needs and regulations that need to be fulfilled before they can enter the market. They plan to do that in the future but when and where exactly remains to be seen.
Andrew Kelsey wrote on August 15th, 2007 at 11:32 am
# I wonder what the doubters like Kent Beuchert are going to say
# when the car is actually on the roads and a success and the next
# model is off the drawing board and into prototyping. I suppose it’ll
# be more of the same. “It’ll never work and if it works it’ll never sell
# and if it sells it’ll break down every five minutes and all the directors
# are evil con-men just out to rip-off your grandmother.”
I was thinking something more along the lines of “these liberal elitist hippies actually hate these ugly-looking pieces of trash! They’re not worth an eighth of what they’re selling for unless you’re from hollywood!”
# Some people see the glass half-full and some see it half-empty. Ignore them.
And some think that it’s completely empty. Those are, unfortunately, the ones who cause problems and if you ignore them they’ll only get worse. KB is one of them. Ignoring them is not enough, you have to actively convince people that they’re full of BS, otherwise the KB’s of this world will actually accomplish their goals. Be careful about those you choose to ignore, they may come back and bite you.
.
To John Kirk,
Be patient! Tesla will get there eventually. The problem, other than the different laws and such, will be making a mirrored version of the car for the UK. It’ll happen, but not just yet. I encourage you to explore this site some more, as there are a number of places even in the US that are disappointed that they won’t be the first to get these cars. Unfortunately, TM doesn’t have billions of dollars to sell hundreds of thousands of cars all over the world. Yet….
To the Moderator: Apparently you missed this in the blog:
“I am halibuted proud of what we have built here at Tesla Motors, and though with hindsight I might have done better, I am not ashamed of any of our setbacks. Our overriding philosophy has always been to deliver quality cars as soon as we can, rather than to meet a schedule that might compromise the cars.”
Shouldn’t that be “I am halibuted proud of what we have built…”?
Here are some additional comments from Martin about the CEO change and the Roadster schedule.
jalopnik.com/cars/electric-ceo-slide/tesla-motors-founder-martin-eberhard-out-as-ceo-electric-roadster-possibly-delayed-288674.php
Been reading through some of the old Blog entries; so much there which characterizes your leadership of Tesla - including the Blogs themselves. What began as an opportunity to communicate “without marketing filters” has taken on a life of its own. The Tesla blogs are unique. The honesty, insight and humour which fills them reflect the company you have helped to create and steer.
As CEO you have given the industry many stand-out phrases and comments, some of which have become standard shorthand in the motoring war of words:-
“Punishment cars”
“A world of 100% hybrids is still 100% addicted to oil”
“Electric cars move our choice of energy source upstream from the vehicle, making them the ultimate multi-fuel vehicles”
You have made both colleagues and competitors re-examine their assumptions. Indeed, your lack of previous automotive engineering experience has helped Tesla examine such preconceptions and adopt a different approach:-
In design:
Bringing in Bill Moggridge, one of the founders of IDEO, - a major design studio that designs practically everything EXCEPT cars - to help formulate the styling brief for the Roadster.
In strategic thinking:
“GM seems to be trapped in the same thinking that hobbled so many EV ventures in the past: If they can’t see the way to make an inexpensive electric car as their first model, they can’t see the business case for EVs at all. Why don’t they think this way about the Corvette? Or the Escalade, for that matter?”
In technology:
“Hub motors: What’s with the obsession about hub motors? Or to put it more succinctly: What problem - what actual, real problem - would hub motors solve? They won’t improve performance. They won’t improve efficiency. They won’t improve reliability. They won’t improve safety. They won’t reduce program risk.”
In support systems:
“And that means charging stations, like gas stations, are soon to be as obsolete as cigarette lighter chargers for our phones. We will need a charger in our garages, at hotels, and at campgrounds. And that’s it. Nice side business for Hyatt Hotels and KOA, by the way…”
Through deals with other companies and adoption of the GM/Mitsubishi/Lotus New Product Introduction program, you have declared the commitment of Tesla to professional, volume automotive manufacturing.
Then again, there have been false moves - the electronic engineer’s preference for gold-plated electrical contacts over chrome was the wrong choice for automotive applications. But you have been entirely up-front and honest where such things haven’t worked out as expected:-
“Maybe I was a bit naive expecting to hold the line on mass. Those of us at Tesla Motors who have a long automotive experience say that fixes to problems discovered at this stage of the program always add mass.”
What must be very satisfying for you is seeing large, powerful auto manufacturers having to back-track on earlier dismissive statements and quietly adopt a similar approach to Tesla.
Take GM:
“Significantly, GM has abandoned the inductive “paddle charger” of yore, instead featuring a conductive interface that allows charging from standard electrical outlets. What a great idea!”
“I find it quite amusing to see so many car companies now embracing Li-ion batteries, when only last July most said that Li-ion was not the way to go for cars.”
And just last week, the Chief Engineer for the Chevy Volt announced that they will have to abandon cheaper air-cooling in favour of liquid cooling for their “more advanced” nanophosphate 40 mile range battery packs! (Have they infringed a Tesla patent yet?)
Some comments on these pages have expressed shock at your change of role and what it might mean for the company, and yet you have already overseen and implemented far larger company changes with the establishment of the Tesla Energy Group.
You are a start-up engineer and, as the company has continued to recruit some of the top names from the history of EV manufacturing, it must be with a growing sense of reluctance that you remain in your office and focus on meetings, report reading and the practice-putter. Whilst your testimonies before various committees have been first rate, the whole suit-and-tie, captain-of-industry thing is not where your heart lies:-
“Nobody makes anything like the Tesla Motors ESS; it’s impossible to hire people with “prior experience,” so the ESS team is dominated by bright, young engineers with a lot of creativity and enthusiasm. Together, they have filed more patents than any other group at the company. Impossible is a word that has no meaning for them.”
So much great stuff to do - working with people like JB more regularly; refining the CAN bus for EVs; refining the VDS; modularising the ESS, PEM and motor for Whitestar, Bluestar and beyond; Tesla parking-lot chargers; the “Tesla Sound”; refining Regenerative braking; charging two Teslas from one domestic fast charger; reducing manufacturing costs; designing for ease of maintenance…..fantastic!
One final quote from you: “I actually don’t have a good suggestion about how to encourage consumers to make fuel efficient choices other than to make great electric cars.”
You have inspired and led the work which has brought about the most important step forward in the development and popularization of the Electric Vehicle.
Thanks for the ride, Martin.
No successful company, much less successful revolution, has ever been achieved without some mistakes. You guys have done a remarkable job and I’m pulling for you.
Good, bad or ugly… what ever is said on the outside makes no difference. The true beauty is that you guys are changing the world. It’s what we dream of as kids and you’re doing it. Good on you. Bravo.
I would even be willing to write a song for you first big T.V. commercial. That’s a thing I swore I would never do. In this case, I’m willing.
~B.K.~
Martin,
I’m sad to see you leave the helm but know that you guys are all working together to change American and world automotive history! Congratulations on the work you have done so far and the work that I know you will do in the future to make it all happen.
Michael
I’m glad to read this post!
When I first heard about Martin stepping down from the CEO position I was shocked, and concerned that Tesla Motor’s inner-politics were unsteady.
But this blog reassures me that everything is fine. Thank you!
One more link on “Beuchert”:
itsgettinghotinhere.org/2006/11/16/new-electric-car-races-past-the-prius/feed/
—
Hopefully my own sometimes critical blog postings aren’t viewed in a similar light.
Just to be clear - I think Tesla has done nearly everything right. Consider minor nitpicks as fanatical curiosity, not complaint.
Oh, and by the way, when people said “Martin for President” this wasn’t exactly what was meant &^}
By the way….The video you gave us doesn’t show the slides in your presentation either!
Martin,
Whatever the public says you and all the forward thinking people in the industry know that Tesla Motors is on the right track. I think Tesla Motors just gained a great President of Technology…
Great expose’ by TEG on KerryBiker/KerryBeauchrt or whatever the halibut’s name really is. The plethora of postings you linked up in that reference post last year plainly show he is a “spoiler” trying to effect change by shouting loud enough.
Martin, I have this idea about making a MMOG (Massively Multiplayer Online Game), similar market and modeling to Everquest or World of Warcraft. The big hurdle has always been - I *don’t* want to run a company, I just want to make sure to design and market a quality offering - which means I would have to retain creative authority to avoid adulteration by a lot of hands trying to steer the effort in myriad directions. I would think that might have been your primary reason for being a CEO and not any desire to actually run a business itself. Making the product of your dreams is noble and exciting; running a business to me and perhaps yourself is drudgery. I hope the changes put you solidly in charge of direction while someone more attuned to the business day to day runs the show otherwise. That would be the freedom of arrangement I would desire if I ever came to affect my own dream into reality.
A note on UK & Europe: Once you have started production, and have your New Mexico facility running wouldn’t it be feasible to license Lotus to produce the cars for Europe? I would hardly think this has never been discussed, and given Lotus will already have the experience assembling the cars quite literally would be a paper change given the reality is already in place. As for mirroring the cars - is it required that the driver be on the right side of the car in the UK or can a car have an offside driver?
Many years ago I introduced the intranet at our corporation. I lobbied to get it built, found customers willing to build pilot projects, proved it’s cost effectiveness, and led the projects to build the infrastructure. While I never had any illusions that I was doing it alone, there was, nonetheless, huge satisfaction - even pride - in watching it grow and take hold. Eventually I had to step into the role of one of many architects of the intranet. I watched it take root and grow from nearly the sidelines.
During that period I went through a phase that can only be described as melancholy. My concerned wife asked me about it, so I explained my feelings this way. “Ideas are our children. We conceive them, nurture them, and watch them grow. But eventually we have to let them follow their own path. It’s like watching our daughter get married. The sense of loss wells up in me. But I know I will always be ‘Dad’”.
Just watched the Motor Press Guild video and it was very interesting. Any slides or videos you are willing to post I think would be quite interesting to us enthusiasts and loyal followers! Keep up the great work Martin. You guys are putting together a phenomenal product and company.
Just an observation:
The business decision appears to be a good one from the standpoint that TM management realizes the strengths that must be in place at certain points in the business plan. It appears that your skill set is managing the front end processes, i.e., start up, technical and prototype development, project management, vision presentations, finding investors, etc. Now turning the lead management position over to someone who has production experience and day-to-day management production interaction worker skills plus freeing up your time and retaining your services as a lead technical manager seems proper to do. I think with you both aboard, the company will continue to move in the right direction.
If I may; a bit of advice from an old IT manager: Don’t acknowledge criticism from the Boo Birds, they are always there and responding to their negative comments only lends energy to whatever their agenda is. You are not a public traded company, not yet, or a politician running for office, so you need not answer. Let your successes and positive actions over the long run answer their criticism; but , make sure you continue to tell your story publicly so we know what you accomplish. Use your energy to satisfy your current and future customers.
I think you guys have exciting and history making company going and have brought hope to all of us who appreciate good science and engineering. it’s great to see a car company that uses its money for R&D and can bring the results to market. And, you don’t appear to depend so much on non-value-added services like buying politicians, hiring lawyer firms and funding huge PR budgets. Try your best to continue as long as you can to resist the system.
Not suprising that there are those spreading rumors, myths and lies about electric cars, there have long been people spreading rumors myths and lies about hybrids as well. Just gotta keep plugging away at dispelling the myths, though sometimes it feels like an endless task.
But just as the wild success of the Prius and other hybrids is sweeping away the myths and making the rumormongers look downright silly, the success of Tesla Motors will eventually sweep away the EV myths and make the “Beucherts” look foolish.
# Chris Crawford wrote on August 15th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
## Just watched the Motor Press Guild video and it was very interesting. Any slides or videos you are willing to post
The Editor posted a note about this on the main blog entry at the top of the page…
# Editor’s note:
## You won’t be able to see the slides in the video. We inadvertently left off the last line of Martin’s postscript where he said he would try to post the slides within the next couple of weeks.
I hope that Mr Eberhard understands that the people that have been along for this ride from the beginning have not just been interested in the development of a great new car, but have always understood the magnitude and signifigance of this undertaking to the world and what it would mean to put EV’s on the road decades before the industry would prefer. Therefore we have also understood the huge challenges that Tesla would have to overcome.(Including the idiotic barbs of pundits). I for one feel that miracles have been worked to have gotten to this point. Corporations with billions at ther disposal could not do it and have done their best to discourge this technology. I consider it a rare privilege to have been allowed to witness this project through the postings and blogs all along. I consider Martin and everyone else at Tesla Motors heroes for having the courage to have taken on what everyone said was’nt wanted and could’nt be done. I am sure there are easier ways to make money. And oh yeah Martin “we still love you man”.
My name is Eric Eberhard. Martin is my younger brother, so I know him quite well. I am not sure if it is a compliment or insult when friends tell me that upon reading his blogs or hearing him speak, they know he is my brother! What I can say to people that do not know Martin is that he is an extraordinary person. He made his money in the computer industry and could have retired quietly. He did not. Because he had a vision — a vision that would meld his personal belief in the importance of doing something to solve the energy and polution problems of the world, and his true enjoyment of fast and exciting automobiles (although riding in a car with him can sometimes be too exciting). He risked everything he owned, his personal life, and his friendships to bring his vision to reality. Yet he has always pursued this vision without stepping on other’s toes, and with a clear understanding of his own limitations. It should be clear that great inovators are not always the best administrators. What makes a person succesful at one task is in fact at odds with the other. Martin will never fit in to a mold, he won’t follow rules and convention, and he certainly won’t administer rules and convention. He knows this and he has always known this. His remark about concentrating on technolgy rather than what kind of latte to serve in the break room is vintage Martin.
However, he alone conceived and started Tesla (with Marc following closely behind) and he will stick with it — for exactly as long as he can contribute meaningfully to the advancement of this vision - a vision that once was his alone, but is now shared by thousands and thousands of people. He does not like “punishment jobs” any better than he likes “punishment cars.” He wants to contribute, not just draw a paycheck. I imagine Martin will be with Tesla forever, so long as he is able to contribute in a meaningful manner.
To those that whine that the range is 200 miles instead of the 250 miles originally conceived … ask yourself this. Conventional wisdom has EVs going 40 to 80 miles per charge. If someone without vision had not conceived 250 miles per charge, would we even be discussing 200? In fact, this entire project has been a reflection of Martin’s vision — pushing all sorts of boundries — who would have conceived of a fun EV? Let alone details like his battery control systems and a myriad of other innovative patents held by Tesla Motors? How about an EV that blows the doors (and fossil fuels) off of pricier sports cars? One that handles well, looks great, and is practical to own. And let us not forget a primary part of Martin’s vision — to develop this technology so that eventually it can filter down to more “ordinary” transportation — to change how we think about transportation, and in the process, change the world.
So anyone that disparages Martin for not being 100% accurate about the exact range, the exact price, the exact delivery date, or anything else except his bad haircut — halibut them! They have never had a vision and they have not ever pursued it with the integrity and tenacity that Martin has. If more people had that kind of vision and took the risks Martin has, the world would be nothing but a better place. I can assure you that Martin has never promised anything he did not believe he could deliver, and with margin to spare. Being a visionary requires a certain level of optimism and dreaming and scheming and hard work, without which we would be left with only a punishment world.
To sum it up I would like to echo what WarpedOne said — “maybe his position should just be “Martin”?:)” To me that is what his position has always been. It is what it will always be. Next Thanksgiving when we have our family get together, if it is not “Turkey” I call him, it will still be “Martin” His title, his successes, his failures — they will never change that. I am proud of him. To those that disparage him, I wish them a world of under-powered hybrid punishment cars. For the rest of us — “Martin” is just fine. And Tesla Motors will motor on.
Tough call, but it sounds smart.
No shame at all in making a change like that, in fact the opposite is true - it takes more smarts and courage to make a change like this in a positive way than to do nothing and fail to see one’s own limitations.
Smart, smart, smart.
Good for you, good for Tesla.
Onward. I want to buy a WhiteStar. Go make them.
I just encountered this story:
www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=475542&in_page_id=1965
It seems someone isn’t waiting to get a high performance electric car in the UK. If they have their ship in order Tesla will have some competition. The Tesla is a beautiful car, this Lightning is another “drooler” - I can’t afford the price of either, but the Lightning is 2-3x the cost of the Tesla as proposed.
Jim Mapes wrote on August 15th, 2007 at 7:50 pm
#As for mirroring the cars - is it required that the driver be on the right side of the car in the UK or can a car have an offside driver?
I’m not sure if it’s legal to sell new cars in the UK with left hand drive but I am sure it’s a bad idea. It’s hard enough to sell new concepts into the market as it is without tying one hand behind your back by making them unsuitable for our roads. You might be surprised at how much of the world drives on what is by many considered to be just the British side of the road. The following list comes from Wikipedia and accounts for about a third of the world’s population. Before you point it out, I’m sure the market for Teslas in Swaziland is very limited! But Japan, India, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand as well as the UK itself, should make producing a RHD version worthwhile.
Places where traffic keeps to the left
Alderney
Anguilla
Antigua and Barbuda
Australia
Bahamas
Bangladesh
Barbados
Bermuda
Bhutan
Botswana
Brunei
Cayman Islands
Christmas Island
Cocos (Keeling) Islands
Cook Islands
Cyprus
Dominica
East Timor (drove on right 1928-1976)
Falkland Islands
Fiji
Grenada
Guernsey
Guyana
Hong Kong - unlike mainland China
India
Indonesia
Ireland
Isle of Man
Jamaica
Japan (Okinawa 1978)
Jersey
Kenya
Kiribati
Lesotho
Macau - unlike mainland China
Malawi
Malaysia
Maldives
Malta
Mauritius
Montserrat
Mozambique
Namibia (1918)
Nauru (1918)
Nepal
New Zealand
Niue
Norfolk Island
Pakistan
Papua New Guinea
Pitcairn Islands
Saint Helena
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Seychelles
Singapore
Solomon Islands
South Africa
Sri Lanka
Suriname
Swaziland
Tanzania
Thailand
Tokelau
Tonga
Trinidad and Tobago
Turks and Caicos Islands
Tuvalu
Uganda
United Kingdom
British Virgin Islands
U.S. Virgin Islands - unlike rest of U.S.
Zambia
Zimbabwe
Well, done, Martin. All company execs should be as accountable, honest and open as you.
I hear you loud & clear, Mr. Eberhard. As an EE/CE myself, I applaud your decision to distance yourself from becoming overwhelmed with the business aspects and continue to focus on the engineering, where it seems your heart is and where you’ll do the most good for Tesla as a result. My only hope is that whomever takes the helm retains your strightforwardness and slight sarcasm which is SO needed and refreshing in the world of big business & its intertwinings with big government. I’m sure they can still keep you as chief spokesperson, yes?
I don’t really see this as a role change. You’ve been focused on the technology from the very beginning. Bringing in another person to operate the company allows you to continue this focus. Numerous tech companies have collapsed because when the founders had to split their attention between technology and operations. both functions suffered. The most successful man I know personally, is very good at startups. AND very good at finding people to run the companies once they are past the startup phase.
I would like to get some input from Alec Brooks on how he feels working for you guys and how his EV ideas fit in with TeslaMotors
So Darryl,
do you have your VP yet? I’m enthusiastically awaiting the car magazine test drive reviews.
Why don’t you guys use nanosafe batteries? I’ve been reading on Phoenix Motorcars’ website that they don’t overheat, or get too cold, or blow up, and they charge in 10 minutes. With a 10 minute charge time, that virtually takes care of the range problem. It seems like the Roadster’s innovative technology is really just a containment unit for inherently unsafe batteries.
Wow. I love automatic curseword filters. First, I quote where martin says the “d” word in his post, and it is censored. And, now, we learn that there’s a new country named Halibutstan. Amazing what technology can do eh?
Seriously though, I had no idea so many countries drove on the wrong side of the road. Too bad no one was able to agree on one single international standard, just like electricity. No, that would just be too….. New World Order-y.
Thanks Eric for the great words in support of your brother Martin. Those of us who have been watching with awe and wonder at what Martin has created would not be wasting our time following this endeavor if we did not have a sense that Martin is an exceptional human being. He has proved many times with words and deeds what he is all about. And when his integrity is questioned by the likes of Mr. Beulchit we also could not be more offended. If we all said what we wanted about that ,the whole comment section would be one huge HALIBUT.Thanks again Eric for verifying what we have known about Martin all along.
It was as recent as 7/26/2007 that people such as Lewis Page in his article: Electric cars may not be solution to all world problems, stated that: “Unfortunately, the limits of current battery technolgy mean full-electric vehicles with petrol-car performance aren’t on the cards for now” as the Tesla as good as it is was a little shy on range and a little shy on top speed to really equate it with a similarly priced ICE sport car such as a Porsche 911. However, the very next round of cards showed that Page was indeed incorrect because when all the new advances in electric car technolgy were brought together not only could electric cars now equal the performance of ICE’s they could actually surpass it and showed itself to be vastly superior technlogy to the ICE’s in every way and of course it was Martin and the Tesla that led the way to demonstrated this fact. This was just recently demonstrated by two electric cars, the first is the L1X-75. This car was first run with a Corvette V-8 engine and of course it was very fast. But then the V-8 was removed and an electric engine installed in it’s place that weighted 1/2 as much. What happened then was proof of the superiority of electric tecnology for the performance of the car was not downgraded by the removal of the Corvette engine but instead its performance was upgraded to that of a super car status. The second electric car was built by Raser Technologies and to make the point a high- torque AC-induction motor with 420 ft-lbs of torque and 500- hp is enough to make an electric race car possible. The future of the electric cars is now secure thanks to you and your dream Martin. Source: www.designnews.com/article/CA603424.html?text=raser Also see: biz.yahoo.com/iw/070716/0278271.html
For anyone who may be interested this link explains why it is that some countries drive on the left others on the right. However I have lived in several countries where it realy doesn’t appear to make all that much difference.
users.pandora.be/worldstandards/driving%20on%20the%20left.htm#history
Peter J. Hedge (Victoria, BC)
I would surmise that 20, 30, 50 years from now the names “Tesla Motors, Tesla Energy Group, Tesla This or That,etc. will be closely associated with the name “Martin Eberhard”. By the 1930’s Henry Ford had given up much of the management of “his” company to others. But that company, by any other name, would still be associated with the name “Henry Ford”.
Will there someday be a Tesla Eberhard Holdings, Inc.?
Tod G. Collins, Orcas Island
Mark,
As a fellow entrepreneur, you are my hero. Thank you for being an inspiration for myself and other people that want to create a better world. Hank Reardon would be proud!
Funny, isn’t it, how the critics are almost never remembered ! It is the artist, scientist, etc. whom the
pages of history recall.
I agree with the comment that Martin’s expertise and passion lies in engineering. The skills required to build a nationwide team of dealers are completely different from the skills required to conceive, design, engineer, build, test and mass produce new products.
I visited Tesla headquarters this spring and was a bit dismayed with what I experienced. It was like there was an army of nice, busy folks pretending to be in business spending Elon’s money with a few orders for cars, but no sales. For ten years I brought 5-10 new products to market nationwiide. One of the most valuable lessons I ever learned was to focus all the organization’s energy on getting the product as right as we could first. The next was to get the product cleared by U&L and other regulatory agencies so that we could ring the cash register. Little problems become big when too many carts are put in front of too many horses.
For example, public relations, though sexy and fun, if used too early can create situations where expectations can be unintentionally mismanaged (eg. distance, delivery date, etc.). Anyone who has ever answered an eager reporter’s bated questions knows that false expectations practically form on their own. I would imagine that every newspaper/TV station and radio station from all around the world wanted time with Martin. Media demands, blogs, photo shoots and the like cloud focus and slow product development.
Martin is a wonderful person and history will prize what he and Elon have started. All the best to them and their quest to change the world. Having learned of this management change actually makes me optimistic that the Tesla dream will become a reality.
David in Park City
Martin:
How about a custom Tesla Roadster (special trans, etc.) that can beat the Ford Fusion’s recent better than 207MPH Bonneville trials.
This would be a fabulous marketing coupe! In your spare time naturally!
# Why don’t you guys use nanosafe batteries?
Of course Tesla can speak for themselves, but it might be because the nanosafe batteries have 1/3 to 1/2 the energy density (Wh/kg) of competing Lithium chemistries. How well do you suppose the Roadster would handle if its pack weighed 1000 kg?
# I’ve been reading on Phoenix Motorcars’ website that they don’t overheat, or get too cold, or blow up, and they charge in 10 minutes.
No one else’s lithium packs are exploding, either. Although the form factor is the same, lithium traction batteries don’t use the same bleeding-edge cells that were failing in laptop computers. Ten-minute charging is a fantasy sustained by people who haven’t actually driven EVs — and it’s unnecessary for the foreseeable future.
# With a 10 minute charge time, that virtually takes care of the range problem.
There is no range problem, because if you really need to drive that much, then, sadly, an EV is not the car for you. The other 99% of us can drive EVs, and use a liquid-fuel car or rail transportation* for the occasional long trip.
(* Sorry, rail system not available in the USA at this time.)
Martin: Agree with your statement that anyone so critical of the normal learning that occurs during any worthwhile R&D effort has never done it. You and your team have changed the automative landscape in a profound way. I am very proud of what you have done and look forward to working with you going forward. Onward and upward. See you soon.
Gary Wayne
Dir. Strategic Projects
# flabby wrote on August 16th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
## So Darryl,
## do you have your VP yet? I’m enthusiastically awaiting the car magazine test drive reviews.
Silver VP10 at his disposal.
Go see it at Pebble Beach this Sunday!!!!
# Dirk Derr wrote on August 16th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
## How about a custom Tesla Roadster (special trans, etc.) that can beat the Ford Fusion’s recent better than 207MPH Bonneville trials.
## This would be a fabulous marketing coupe! In your spare time naturally!
I think you would need a lot more than 250hp to do that. The Roadster’s battery system, controller and eMotor aren’t designed for high horsepower, high speed.
Their specialty is low end torque and efficiency. The torque gets you great 0-60, not top speed.
I would rather see the Roadster on the track embarrassing higher horsepower ICE cars. A top speed record would likely be just for EVs, not absolute against fuel powered vehicles.
Note - a special version of the GM Impact designed for max top speed did get up to 187MPH…
Martin,
Congratulations! You have done a fantastic job at Tesla Motors so far, and I expect you to continue to do so at your new role.
Do look me up if you are traveling to Shanghai. We sure need electric cars here!
Best Regards,
Charles Chuang (your old friend and co-conpirator in previous ventures)
Martin and the Tesla mavens have done a great job, but to keep Tesla a real company in the future the most important thing is : “keep the money changers (hyenas) out of the temple”. Henry Ford would be the first to tell Martin this. Mark Marks is a member of Kohlberg, Kravis, Roberts (”and CEO of Tesla ” !?) - a private equity co. “Private Equity” sounds great, except it’s really a smokescreen for “big bankers equity / powers that be equity as usual” . These firms have been doing a lot of gobbling up of American companies lately (as the absurdly rich get even more absurdly richer, and “consolidate control”-and how many Tesla bloggers out there follow any of this?). My advice to Martin: for permanent CEO pick someone with NO ties to “the banking system”, at all costs. Also, if Tesla needs extra cash in the future, go to “unconnected” individuals to get it NOT “private equity firms” or anything related to them. Why?-the principle of the thing, for starters-and that’s enough, knowing what I know-and for “finishers”: to keep the company out of the hands of the weasels down the line. Also: no more “temple hyenas from the financing world ” on the board either-if anyone else joins, they should be verifiably “untainted, independent non-money interests people”- preferably tech. people.
I have been reading Tesla website for almost a year. I first entered for curiosity (sports electric car? to good to be real?), then I liked the site and the blogs. Every new picture of the car I like it more. I admire Tesla Motors for their vision and the challenges they are overcoming (newcomers: for more details you may have to read a bunch of these blogs).
But also I like this site because besides being very good engineers, techincians, executives, etc. More important they are also very good people.
Thanks flash-spyder for sharing with us your knowledge about Mr. Eberhard as he shares his knowledge about Tesla Motors.
For me, Tesla has already changed the way I think about cars. Even though I won’t see mine delivered for about a year, whenever I see a car commercial I think, well, it’s nice, but it runs on gasoline, so it’s not something I would want. A few years from now, after Whitestar, and maybe even some of the other car companies come through with electrics, there will be lots of people thinking the same way.
There are signs that we are fast approaching peak oil. The latest is that Mexico oil production is in steep decline. When Oil hits $125, and gasoline is $5 we will need alternatives, and Tesla will be there.
Have to comment to both Rich and loshwomp. . . What we have with Phoenix and Tesla are different visions for the future. Tesla is looking forward towards a future where you can do a whole day’s driving (ideally, up to 500 miles) on a battery charge, and then recharge overnight. Phoenix is looking towards a future where you can drive maybe 80-100 miles and then recharge at widely available rapid-charging stations.
Both of these could be valid paths — and yet large obstacles will have to be overcome, either way.
Today’s battery technology can’t support a 500-mile range. You would have to more than double the energy density of Li-ion cells to achieve it with a car like the Roadster — a tiny two-seater made from aluminum and carbon-fiber. Getting there with a four-door passenger car would be even tougher. It’s unclear to me whether chemical cells of any chemistry will be able to achieve this in the future. Even if you get a magic battery that can do this, you’d still be hauling around 80% of your battery as effectively dead weight during the majority of your daily driving when you aren’t taking a long road trip. It doesn’t seem efficient.
On the other hand. . . Batteries that will accept rapid-charge are very expensive while not matching the energy density of standard Li-ion. The cost is a manufacturing problem that I’m sure can be overcome eventually. However, then you’d still have the whole infrastructure problem of getting rapid-charging stations installed all around our cities before many people would consider short-range electric cars viable. This may not be a problem that small start-up companies like Phoenix or Tesla are equipped to tackle. GM and GE could do it, maybe.
Don’t forget that plug-in hybrids like the Chevy Volt will also be appearing on the scene. So, there is no one true path laid out for the electric car industry, it’s all open to experimentation with different approaches. To me, that’s exciting.
To Martin
Thank you for real entrepreneurship that you demonstrated during your last couple of businesses. I admire your inspiration and hard work, bringing dreams down to earth and to us as customers or future employees. Real entrepreneurships shows itself in the decisions which we are able to take, not in spreadsheets nor presentations that will be shown in the future. Respect for such a wise decision!
Patrik, Tesla Roadster aficionado
I find nothing disturbing in all this. It is not uncommon for visionaries and entrepeneurs to get to the point where more mundane out-of-skill-set details and tasks overwhelm their particular gifts. It IS uncommon for them to realize this and properly allocate their own and the venture’s resources. I just finished reading Disney War by James Stewart which should be on the shelf of every Company Executive in the land. It is a primer on mismanagement and on how hubris can tend to wreck even old, established and previously profitable companies. Mark Twain said that “The cemetaries are full of irreplaceable men.” and I am glad that Martin Eberhard is neither in the cemetary or irreplaceable or out of Tesla. It is a true mark of ability to recognize limitations. If Michael Eisner had been able to stay humble, stay trusting and trustworthy and make plans for succession, his legacy would have been even richer. Tesla Motors success will depend on a great number of skilled people functioning together in harmony, including customers and spectators. There will always be internal politics in every human organization and it is a test of the organization how well they deal with the inevitable frictions and even success. Eberhard is still at Tesla, still contributing and still passionate. It looks like this test has been passed this time.
As far as this KB character, all criticism is relevant if only for the effect it creates in consumers. Here, if indeed the guy has a hidden vested interest opposed to EV’s in general or Tesla in particular, hallelujah. Change is destructive and somebody might be feeling the pain or at least some anxiety. I wouldn’t spend too much time analyzing this type of reaction other than to recognize that Tesla Motors is no longer flying under a number of interested radar screens and should plan accordingly.
I hope transition to manufacturing will happen OK in Tesla Motors and finally the world will see EV success at least in high-end market of cars.
From what I have learned about Martin from the blog he is a strong soul dedicated to technical beauty at least in cars. I am absolutely 200% certain that Martin will ignore all the scary rumor spreading people without losing any energy for this - it is not worth it. I hope to see Martin’s self-confidence absolutely returned back to normal so that he could sirprise the public with new technology in cars again. To me next thing to tackle would be drastic reduction of aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance coefficient so that roomier and heavier WhiteStar could go more than 300 miles with the same ESS as Tesla Roadster - wishful thinking of course but would be really nice to see this.
# Today’s battery technology can’t support a 500-mile range. You
# would have to more than double the energy density of Li-ion cells
# to achieve it with a car like the Roadster.
A 50-percent improvement is essentially available today at the cutting edge — at the expense of some safety unknowns. Clearly inappropriate for today’s traction packs, but we’ll get there eventually.
# It’s unclear to me whether chemical cells of any chemistry will be
# able to achieve this in the future.
We may never reach the phenomenal energy density of crude oil, but cell technology has increased steadily for decades. It’s a shame the US doesn’t fund more battery research. “Cheap gasoline” isn’t a viable energy policy.
# Even if you get a magic battery that can do this, you’d still be hauling
# around 80% of your battery as effectively dead weight during the
# majority of your daily driving when you aren’t taking a long road trip.
# It doesn’t seem efficient.
That’s a fundamental problem with private vehicles of any sort, really. It’s not efficient to push 1000kg all over town in order to relocate 100kg worth of occupants.
# However, then you’d still have the whole infrastructure problem of
# getting rapid-charging stations installed all around our cities before
# many people would consider short-range electric cars viable.
There doesn’t seem to be a very compelling business case for developing a fast charging infrastructure. You’d have enormous capital costs for fast charging equipment, and you’d be competing with home charging (which has the advantage of ultimate convenience and economy). If you tried to compete with grid energy rates, your margins would be razor thin.
Today’s EVs coupled with medium-power (5-15kW) opportunity charging already satisfy all but the most demanding “around town” range complaints, and the public EV charging infrastructure is marginal even in the best places. It can only improve.
If you can charge at home most of the time, and round out your local driving with opportunity charging, that narrows the fast charge market to long road trips only. At this point you’re catering to the intersection of 1) people who have EVs, who are 2) taking a statistically unlikely road trip, and 3) decided not to use alternative transportation options, and 4) happen to need a charge at your exact location. Would you invest in such a business?
Fast charging seems about as viable as hydrogen fuel cells — i.e., possibly practical several decades from now, but most likely never.
# So, there is no one true path laid out for the electric car industry, it’s
# all open to experimentation with different approaches. To me,
# that’s exciting.
Definitely!
I have to say that the chaos surrounding Martin’s role change has brought out the best of the bloggers. I have enjoyed reading the postings more now than the somewhat stale blogs of recent months. Not only did Martin return to classic form with this blog entry, but the bloggers responded!
—–
I hope nano-tech ultracapacitors turn out the be the “new frontier” that needs all of Martin’s attention and results in future vehicles with lighter weight and more range.
Hopefully by the time I save up enough for a roadster it will be offered with an improved ESS, in Graphite Gray with cloth seat option!
To: Tony Belding wrote on August 17th, 2007 at 5:39 - 500 mile range batteries. The Nano battery revolution has just begun and we will no doubt someday have
500 mile range battery packs. The real question will be, Do they make any sense and Will you be willing to pay the cost? For example, your present ICE, How many batteries does it have? One of course. Why not two or three? Well , it would not make any sense to carry more as it only takes one to do the job because when it starts running low we immediately recharge it rather than to use a series of many of them. That why a rechargable battery is so useful because it can take the place of a large number of batteries. In the Chev Volt this concept is called a “range extender” and it basically lets you go as far as you want to. In essence, the car is being run on current from the generator and you have what amounts to an infinite battery pack because energy is being replaced as fast as it is being used so you can drive across the entire U.S. at any time as long as gas is supplied to the generator motor.
In the Volt the battery pack is reduced to just 400 lbs instead of the 900 lbs of the Tesla. The Volt then carries 500 lbs less weight around where ever it goes and can instead carry 4 or 5 passengers. Nice trade off I’d say. We can use either a 3 cylinder 1 Liter turbo charged generator or a fuel cell to keep recharging the battery pack
and I assume that a small fuel cell the size of a battery will eventually get the job as it will do so with little or no noise or vibration. Batteries will always be heavy and
expensive and it makes far more sense to continuously recharge them than to buy large number of them that you have to carry around as dead weight.
A range extender would also have further advantages for Tesla if it intents to sell the car world wide because while most American have a garage, the rest of the world does not and they have to park sometimes a block or two from their home and running a long cord is not going to make sense. With a range extenter on a Tesla after you park your car you push a recharge button and the next morning when you return you have a fully recharged battery. Thus, you no longer have to plan your life around recharging the battery since it can now be done anytime you want to, even when you are driving the car. Further, even if all the batteries failed the car could still be run from the generator and the car would pretty much always get you to your distination.
I get a kick out of bloggers rambling on about how battery technology is lacking or limited. They throw in a scientific term or two and act like they’re the authority.
Just days before the Wright brothers flew their plane at Kitty Hawk, the foremost scientific authority officiously announced that human flight would not be possible for at least 500 years. History is full of nay sayers who are proven completely wrong. Oil folks, automobile manufacturers and all the idiots on the dole from these giants will be on the wrong side of history.
There are always those who say a thing cannot be done. There will be thousands who will prophesy failure. That’s just the way it goes. However, I believe that the most important thing that Martin and all the Tesla engineers can now do is to ignore the critics and to roll up their sleeves and get to it. All logical thinking humans paying $3 to $5 per gallon will be cheering you on. Don’t worry about the oil company thugs, the big car manufacturers, the press or even the bloggers. Just get the product made and in the market place. Once a market is establish technological advancements provide further lift.
David in Park City
Good work Martin. God speed. I think that is 0 -60 in about 4 seconds.
I thought I saw a black roadster traveling south on Hwy 17 as I was traveling north this morning at around 9:30am (the stretch of road just past Los Gatos, alongside the reservoir). Perhaps it was on the way to Pebble Beach? Was that a real Roadster sighting or just wishful thinking on my part? Inquiring minds want to know!
—-
Editor’s Answer: Sadly, it was just wishful thinking. There will be two cars at Pebble beach - one is Sterling Silver and the other Electric Blue.
So, originally I heard that the range of the charge was approx. 200 miles (321.8 km), then I read in this blog that the range had to be shortened due to additional weight added to strengthen the integrity of the vehicle. What is the range considered to be now that we are close to delivery?
By the way, speaking of the Volt, why are they going to all the trouble to safety test their own battery pack? Has GM approched the Tesla Energy Group?
Having worked at Nuvomedia with Martin and for Marc, my first thoughts of why Martin was changing roles ended up being spot-on. I very much enjoyed working at Nuvomedia, and Marc and Martin were two big reasons why it was so great to work there.
To Ronald Greene:
Range extenders won’t do a thing to cure us of our oil addiction (unless you think cutting into our food supply via ethanol is a good idea). I much prefer the 500-mile battery pack idea
Tony Belding wrote Re: Phoenix,Tesla , Chevy Volt . You are right it will be exciting to watch how all of these different approaches sort them selves out over the course of time. Tesla and the others are forcing the established auto makers down a path they have been trying to avoid for the most part. But once they join the fray in ernest (sooner then they would have liked for sure) that could be when it really gets interesting. All that would have to happen is for one company (such as Toyota who has been the main player with hybrids so far) to break ranks so to speak and put something out to compete with Tesla and the others and then its game on. Hang on folks this could be fun.
I am an intermittent follower of the Tesla progress. I can barely contain myself when I get too involved. But I had to speak up on this topic. Very few people are willing to let someone else take the reigns when the job doesn’t fit them the way it should. Seeing someone like Martin with the confidence and willingness to move to something he would feel better doing makes me more confident than ever that the Tesla Roadster will make it to the market. As for the naysayers and critics, it’s as old as our calender……Savior of the world, what’s in it for me (the power elite of the day asked)….Crucify him. Some things never change.
# Jim Hillin wrote on August 17th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
## So, originally I heard that the range of the charge was approx. 200 miles (321.8 km),
## then I read in this blog that the range had to be shortened …
Actually original project range was 250miles. The revised “statement” was “more than 200″.
Based on hints recently made at a press conference, the actual “EPA” range test results may well be very close to 250 miles after all.
I think they probably said “more than 200″ just to be safe so they wouldn’t have to make two corrections if they fell too far under 250.
I suspect that some “official” results will come as a statement from Tesla fairly soon.
Note: actual range depends on driving conditions. I bet driving at 45mph would do well more than 250miles, and driving at 100mph would do much less.
It is always interesting to read the blogs here at Teslamotors webpages!
I am following the development from Denmark where the gasoline price now is close to 10 USD/Gallon! (11 DKK/Litre)
We have a car tax of 180%! This means that the smallest Japanese car, i.e. a Nissan Micra will cost more than 17.000 USD. Oh, by the way….. there are NO tax on EVs!
Thus I hope that Teslamotors and other EV manufacturers will eventually look at Denmark as a nice little “export test market”.
A Tesla Roadster could easily compete in price with other sports cars….. a Porsche Boxster is priced at 150.000 USD here in Denmark!
So good luck to all at Teslamotors. You are paving the way to a better future.
Danny
Ronald Greene wrote on August 17th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
#Batteries will always be heavy and expensive and it makes far more sense to continuously recharge them than to buy large number of them that you have to carry around as dead weight.
Why would you think that? Seems to me the technology will develop very quickly and in several different ways at once. Startups and smaller companies like Tesla will take the risk of going the all-electric route right away and will rely on improving battery tech and reducing cost to keep them competitive. Large car companies like GM will always play it safe for their shareholders and will produce hybrids of one sort or another until there is a real breakthrough in battery technology. But, the IC engines in their hybrids will get smaller and smaller every year while their batteries will become more and more powerful for their size and weight. After a few years of this customers will begin to realise that they haven’t heard their IC engine kick-in in a while and they’ll wonder why they’re paying for all this complication just for very occasional road trips. Once that happens it’s batteries all the way. If any one of the more ‘out there’ battery developments comes good then all bets are off and the inevitable changeover will take place much faster. Does anybody else remember those briefcase-sized batteries that accompanied the original cell phones? Who would’ve thought we’d soon have tiny lithium batteries doing the same job.
It will be interesting to see how the spin doctors handle things as Teslas hit the roads.
I’m sure Tesla knew this day would come and they handled this in a very smart way. Over the last year they have educated a large number of people through these blogs and on their website well in advance of the BS that is sure to fly soon. Much of this spin doctoring will be defused by a legion of people who really do understand all of the background behind the decisions Tesla has made.
I’ve noticed none of the big hot rod mags have acknowledged the Tesla Roadster. Guess they don’t want us midwest beer drinken, pickup drivin , ford mustang cruising country folk to see it for what it can do on the open road. But i keep lookin and hoping to see a mag just on electric cars like the tesla . If there is , please post a link. You start talking about electric cars out here in IL, its prettty much like talking about UFO’s . People laugh at you when you tell them there is this electric car that can go this fast and that far . Or they just find some reason why it wouldn’t be any good .. I would certainly loved to get a hold of a hat or shirt to show my support for a new automotive revolution. Even better , a die cast model of the Tesla at the local hobby store .. Keep up the good work . looking forward to seeing the Whitestar and the bluestar hopefully. Getting tired of filling my wifes minivan ,while i’m getting bent over and raped by big oil .
To: Ryan Lamansky/Kardax wrote on August 17th, 2007 at 5:42 pm - Range extenders won’t do a thing to cure us of our oil addiction. Sorry, but GM did the research
on this and it certainly does does help us. A range extender increases the range of a fully electric car and that has got to be a good thing. For example, if your drive to work and back everyday is less than 40 miles you will not use any gasoline at all. But what if your drive to work and back is 100 miles. At the point where the charge in
the battery will affect its lifecycle the generator comes on while you are driving and recharges the battery in 1/2 hour and then turns off. Durning the 1/2 hour while driving and recharging the Volt will still be getting 50 miles per gallon. Once the generator shuts off you will once again enjoy 100+ miles per gallon for another 40 miles. Instead of using a hugh battery pack the range extender allows you to use a battery pack that is 60% smaller. A fully electric car can use a battery pack as large
30 batteries. If the batteries cost $1,000 each thats $30,000 dollars. Electric cars will cost around $40,000 plus the cost of the batteries, total cost $70,000 for
a cheap EV and $130,000 for the best. Thus, the range extender is your best friend because it lowers the cost of the batteries by 60% and that is going to allow
people who could not other wise buy an EV to do so and to greatly reduce their carbon emissions from what their current ICE was emitting. Further, the generator
does not care what kind of fuel the 1 Liter turbo charged ICE uses. It could be diesel or use waste oil or Biodiesel does not have to be ethanol, the choice is up to you.
Those of us that care to familiarize ourselves ever so slightly with this program already recognize that it is not a flawless plan. Obviously some people are incapable of understanding this. What they also seem to have too little intellect to comprehend is that our hopes and dreams will not be dashed by the threat of failure. The concept of “trying” at anything would be pointless if it really worked that way. Apparently, being reminded of the obstacles or potential problems that this program has/does/ or will face is supposed to make us all hide under our beds and cry to our mommies. To those of no faith I say this:
After this team has dedicated themselves so completely to this dream, after they have spent their days and nights, planning and creating and building, whether they be geniuses or madmen, do you really think that your-often more offensive than critical-remarks will even remotely stand in their way?
If so, then you are entirely missing the point of what it is to truly believe in something.
Hey! Does this mean Micheal Marks gets bumped up on the waiting list? No fair. That might explain his “unexpected availability”.
I had not thought about what happened to Preston Tucker and his Tucker autombile for quite awhile ,but Mr. Beuchert’s attack on Martin has reminded me of the tactics that were used to “kill the Tucker” before he got it to market. It would not surprise me if every aspect of Tesla’s business are not being thouroughly scrutinized by god only knows what powers to be. And if Tesla has made even the most innocent of financial missteps somewhere along the way it will be played up to the max. Worst case scenario ….headline “TESLA MOTORS OPERATIONS SUSPENDED WHILE UNDER INVESTIGATION”. This is the kind of thing that has us all on pins and needles coming down the stretch run. You can’t help but worry when so much is at stake and the status quo has proven how far it will go to protect its interests. Don’t want to be a killjoy but I hope all of the T’s have been dotted and I’s crossed very carefully.
Steven Dean wrote on August 18th, 2007 at 9:10 am
“I’ve noticed none of the big hot rod mags have acknowledged the Tesla Roadster. ”
Car and Driver, with the largest circulation of all car enthusiast magazines had a full page on the Tesla Roadster last summer and that is how I found out about Tesla. They have also covered electric drag racing, and one of their key writers owns a Prius. That said they have also printed many articles that are not very EV friendly. When the Roadster is in production and they have a test car, I have no doubt that they will take a good look at it.
Ronald Greene wrote on August 18th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
“A fully electric car can use a battery pack as large 30 batteries. If the batteries cost $1,000 each thats $30,000 dollars. Electric cars will cost around $40,000 plus the cost of the batteries, total cost $70,000 for
a cheap EV and $130,000 for the best. ”
So I guess you missed the part about the Tesla WhiteStar being a ~$50,000 EV that will compete with the likes of a 5 series BMW and the Tesla BlueStar being a ~$30,000 vehicle that may in fact end up as a plugin hybrid.
To Martin and the Tesla Team: You are the Wright Brothers of the EV and I am sure they had their share of bad press before their succesful flight with a heavier than air machine. Let the press and the nay sayers reveal their ignorance
but don’t ever let them discourage your dreams.
And, I am glad to see they have not! Great work, and the best of sucess to the team and Tesla.
I would still like to see a Tesla vehicle break a record set by some other technology or an ICE vehicle.
Go Martin.
Martin proves that the Tesla Torch is still burning bright with a proud showing at Pebble Beach.
There are a growing number of converts who see that the future of performance cars is electric.
(It is amusing to watch the Ferrari aficionados react to the new kid on the block who just can’t be ignored).
The next Roadsters to be produced go to customers. This is only the beginning of a bright future.
Einstein surprised the world many times with changes in his theories. He believed that a good scientist was always willing to change based on new information and new discoveries. Einstein is frequently quoted “A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new.” High tech business (indeed, all business) is no different. It must constantly change in order to be successful.
How does the management change affect Tesla Energy Group?
I am surprised that I hadn’t seen it mentioned before, but there are some absolutely gorgeous photos of Roadster EP1 & VP1 to be found here:
www.flickr.com/photos/squidd/sets/72157600611511931/
Almost all startups go through a team breakup or breakdown that is natural part of growth from invent to do. You may always have some sort of regret but giving up CEO is probably the hardest thing yet essential part of making the transistion from entrepreneur to manager. VERY FEW HUMAN BEINGS on the planet get a chance to make this jump and MANY THAT APPROACH THIS CHASM hang on to CEO too long and take their companies over the cliff instead of over. Cheers to you keeping your head up and good luck being the BEST CTO IN THE AUTO INDUSTRY!!!
I read somewhere that the car mags would be getting VP cars to test in the July/Aug time frame. If true, that would put appearances in the Sept. or October issues. I don’t expect too much from the car mags though. They will no doubt complain about the lack of enginre roar, (another selling point for me personally), and they will point out that an ‘08 Corvette will match the 0-60 accelleration, has a higher top speed, and costs about half as much. The fact that it is electric, which is the main point for most buyers, will only be seen by them as yet another disadvantage, and prompt complaints about the range and recharge time. The car mags are very gasoline power centric, so I don’t expect them to “get it” when it comes to the Tesla, but maybe I’ll be surprised.
# John Acheson, MBA wrote on August 19th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
## … being the BEST CTO IN THE AUTO INDUSTRY!!!
If I am not mistaken, Martin’s title is “President of Technology” which is somewhat different from “Chief Technology Officer”.
If you look here: www.teslamotors.com/media/company_team.php
you will see that JB Straubel is still listed as CTO.
My guess is that Martin’s role change may give the two more chance to collaborate closely together.
Tesla actually makes sense even at $100k when one calculates the present value of the gas money one saves versus a internal combustion sports car along with minor price per gallon increases and standard interest. Not to mention the “cool” factor of Tesla. Plus the lower depreciation of a Tesla versus say a Viper, Corvette or Mustang with 100k miles makes the buying proposition even more compelling. The White Star will be a no brainer at $50k. Tesla commuter cars will bring about a whole new world and Detroit is dancing. I can’t believe these empty suits from Detroit who thump their focus group research studies and spout off about their market research. They act so proud and confident like they really know what America wants and why this or that won’t work. You’re exposed Detroit. Everyone sees you. Sadly, it’s going to get much worse before it gets any better.
You had glorious decades in the sun. You became lazy and corrupt yet America still carried your sorry behinds. Tax payers built you roads, the private sector set up your gas stations and built you a coast to coast infrastructure. We trusted you and you blew it with your greed, organizational stiffness and lack of leadership. Don’t send your marketing minions to try and head fake us that you’re truly interested in the environment or efficiency. We see through your green multi-million dollar, multi-page national advertising scheme recently published in all the auto magazines. Save your money. We don’t believe you. You’re in the pocket of the oil companies, lobbiests and country club executives who are out of touch. Status quo is the way you’ll go. You no longer follow logic and the American intuition that made you great. You have mis-led, mis-advised and mis-stepped too many times. When you spout off about research about why this or that won’t work I just laugh because you’re proving how far up you behind your heads actually are. Plus, with your track record, you’re in no position to make such assertions. Keep eating hot dogs in Detroit and figuring out how to make bigger SUV’s with more cup holders. That’s where you really shine. Don’t doomsday us with your flash bang market research… just put it in the capacious trunk of your Aztek and leave thinking Americans, whom you’ve ignored for years, alone to buy Tesla White Stars.
David in Park City
Frankly Detroit automakers have had their collective heads so far up their Again I have to laugh at these Detroit stiffs who quote their market research and why this or that won’t work. Wake up Detroit. Your greed, incompetence and lack of leadership has put you in the hole you’re falling down. The people built roads for you to profit from. For decades you received every advantage. Plus, when one considers the “cool” factor, the higer resale a Tesla versus a Ferrari or Corvette with 100k miles and the Tesla wins big.
I believe in the potential good that this company can do for the world and want to know how I can become a small investor?
To: Martin Eberhard Founder and President of Technology in response to: The Next Legg of the Race-
On August 15th, 2007 at 10:35am last entry CARB DIET bolg
I wrote the following entry - Exploring Options for A Gereration II Tesla Roadster- Many new technolgical breakthroughs have occured since Tesla’s original design. Well the blog was changed and I got no response and I believe this is necessary because other people are also beginning to ask the same questions as in AutoblogGreen 8/20/2007 NanoSafe battery show minimal loss of charge capacity Reader Comments: #4 ….” If I were to buy an electric car, which I would like to do, I would insist that its batteires be at least as good or better than Altair’s NanoSafe batteries. The Tesla electric sports car has an idiotic battery pack of Li-on laptop batteries (8631 of them) that cost $20,000 and won’t last more than five years, and require a Rube Goldberg monitoring system to keep the temp just right, as well as dsicharge rates, etc., all things that are not needed for NanoSafe batteries. That car will be obsolete the day it’s delivered if it doesn’t switch to NanoSafe batteries.”
Yes, the next legg of the race is going to be a rough because the technolgical breakthroughs are coming very fast and if you do not constantly update your
technolgy you will be left in the dust. The Nano revolution in batteries is just such a breakthrough and while it will require a complete redesign for example moving
the motor to the front of the car the result will be a much better car that with a range extender can be driven across the USA and can be recharged in 10 mins. Yes, some very hard decisions will have to be made but the survival of the company is at stake because people will start seeing the present technology as out of date.
Now hopefully the plans for Tesla II are already on the drawing boards because like the computer industry this is going to be very fast moving and you will need
to be continuously changing just in order to keep up.
To Spencer:
Tesla is apparently planning an IPO someday. Then anyone can invest in the company. Including the oil industry. Personally, I’m happy to see Tesla stay private as long as they can
# Tom J wrote on August 19th, 2007 at 8:44 pm
## I read somewhere that the car mags would be getting VP cars…
## I don’t expect too much from the car mags though.
## … they will point out that an ‘08 Corvette will match the 0-60 acceleration
What the better journalists will notice, and owners will start to say to their friends is this is the easiest car to drive quickly.
You have the responsiveness and control of a “stick shift” with no need for a clutch pedal or much thought to gear choice.
The simplicity of the Tesla design will slowly win over everyone who likes small sports cars.
On the other hand, the vehicle is still spartan. In the long run I think there will be more complaints over lack of luxury and comfort items.
Performance and driving dynamics will be unmatched, but this is still a very pure sports car.
#Tom J wrote on August 19th, 2007 at 8:44 pm
#… and they will point out that an ‘08 Corvette will match the 0-60 accelleration, has a higher top speed, and costs about half as much.
One hopes that such journalists might also point out that maintenance costs and hassle should be all but eliminated; that refueling costs will be around one-tenth (or less) of a Corvette; that the Roadster’s single-occupant carpool lane access means getting to work more quickly than if driving any other supercar; and that in a world where rarity brings status, the Roadster is king.
Tom J wrote:
“They will no doubt complain about the lack of engine roar, (another selling point for me personally), and they will point out that an ‘08 Corvette will match the 0-60 acceleration, has a higher top speed, and costs about half as much. ”
I agree the “first drives” the magazines get will produce these results.
But when they get to do full road tests they will undoubtedly have to give extreme marks to the one shift (or no shift) 40- to 100 MPH zone -another place the all-torque-all-the-time electric motors excel. Also don’t forget handling. The center weighted Roadster against that massive front end Vette would not be much of a comparison in the turns.
Also, since a lot of these test are done on tracks like Willow Springs in So Cal these two cars might be pretty matched in lap times since it might be hard go get above Tesla’s top speed of 130 in the straightaway.
I’m betting the little Lotus inspired car will come to a regen assisted stop quicker than a lot of cars too.
As for the electric part, they are going to have the biggest problem with not being able to “Road Trip” with the Roadster. Not only will the writers not be able to peacock at gas stations with “their” cool ride of the month, cars are about freedom and these guys are in the business of selling that. So until a charging network exists to their satisfaction, the Evs will come up short for them.
The future looks bright though!
“…here we are on the eve of the Tesla Roadster’s start of production.”
Is that literal? Because then that means they’re going to be delivered soon!
Rapid Charging Stations: Ultimately we’ll need these, regardless of range, although would not be needed ‘throughout the city.’ Anyone traveling over 200+ miles is probably going to be traveling on an Interstate. That’s where the rapid charging stations need to be. Initially Uncle Sam will need to provide since, as someone said, there would be no viable business model for some time. Once established, Sam would privatize these stations in auctions, much like they did with cellular telephone bandwidth. Next problem.
Even though I could never afford one, I’ve been following the development of the Tesla Roadster for a while because I really do think electric cars are the best way to move away from petroleum dependence. Naysayers be darned, it just seems to be that it’s better for Mr. Eberhard to be doing what he does best — developing technology — and having someone more attuned to the business side in the CEO seat. That Mr. Eberhard was willing to make this change speaks volumes about his commitment to Tesla Motors, and I think that it makes Tesla Motors even stronger. I feel more confident than ever that Tesla’s technology will trickle down to average car buyers, just like they’ve planned. When that time comes, I’ll have no hesitation to make that purchase knowing that Tesla is more committed to quality, safe, and green transportation than any other company out there.
Ronald Greene take a chill pill !
You are demanding a technology that is extremely expensive, not large scale production and which would reduce range dramatically?
You would pay $150K for the same car with a range of ~120 miles ? And at the same time you would keep Tesla from having any market penetration? Sounds great ! Maybe you should be running the show.
# Joseph wrote on August 20th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
## “…here we are on the eve of the Tesla Roadster’s start of production.”
## Is that literal? Because then that means they’re going to be delivered soon!
The news I recall is that they plan to start production next month.
Then the completed vehicles will likely take a slow boat + train + truck from the UK to the USA which may add another month.
They probably need to do some additional tweaks on the cars over here.
I heard something like “Founder Series” cars would be delivered starting in November.
Signature 100 cars aren’t expected until next year.
This all assumes that nothing else adds delay. They are still working on some final details.
“Soon” is relative considering the vehicle is part of a project started many years ago, so the final few months seems like a small chunk of time in comparison to all that has been done already, but those who expect to get a car soon may be counting the days!
…There will still be a lag between production start and actual delivery…
Story on the white star factory in the Albuquerque Tribune. I’m glad TM is taking the time to do it right.
Some people just can’t help making a “halibut” of themselves; Matt Nauman, Kent Beauchrt and Ronald Greene. I place them in the same catagory as Michael Moore…. someone to ignore!
They can’t stand someone being intelligent and successful and wish to discredit their popularity in an effort to make themselves look good, not realizing how ugly they are themselves.
Tesla Motors will succeed regardless…………
Martin:
You have done a great job in bringing an amazing vehicle to the world. Thank you. Now, get to work on the Whitestar ASAP so that we can see your next great invention.
Linda
What I worry about the IPO is that it may not just be the oil industry. The other automakers as well. If they where where to buy up a controling share.. and rather not have competition or something that would potentially remove billions of dollars in the sales of fuel or engine parts.. Other than that.. I would have liked to be an investor that go in at the begining.. sigh. Hope the IPO is affordable. *checks wallet* I might have enough
# Linda Burgos wrote on August 21st, 2007 at 8:09 am
## Martin: Now, get to work on the Whitestar ASAP so that we can see your next great invention.
Umm, I think the recent news suggests that Martin’s focus is back to finishing up the Roadster.
I wonder if Michael Marks will blog about his plans for Whitestar?
Is there going to be a Tesla Roadster Owner’s Manual?
Mundane things like changing a tire and replacing wiper fluid may not be too exciting, but the unusual things associated with an electric car would.
Topics such as “How to charge your Tesla Roadster at home”, “Opportunity charging using your Mobile Charging System”, and “Finding charging stations using your new touchscreen Navigation System.” immediately come to mind.
All new cars should come with an owner’s manual. Could Tesla post a Table of Contents or drafts of some of the section’s online? It would be a great marketing tool for us potential buyers who want to know everything we can before we buy.
I’m really not interested in hearing anything about WhiteStar at this point. All I want to hear is “The Tesla Roadster has passed its final safety and durability tests; production is underway
”.
Then we can talk about WhiteStar
Hi Martin!
I’ve had the honor of meeting with you and seeing the Tesla Roadster first hand. I’m therefore confident in stating that I believe that you are a man of honesty, integrity and commitment. I applaud you for taking the reigns of the Tesla Roadster at such a crucial time. I don’t if the right person will be deciding which kind of latte machines will be in your stores, but I am confident that a world changing, top quality, high performance Tesla Roadster will be available soon, thanks to you and to your highly skilled, dedicated, and hard working team.
TEG2
“Signature 100 cars aren’t expected until next year ”
In a recent interview I believe Elon Musk said that they would start delivery of the 100 series this fall, and finish delviering all of the 100 series by next year.
Gordon Green wrote :Is there going to be a Tesla Roadster Owner’s Manual?
The Roadster owner’s manual writers should read Guy Kawasaki’s “The Art of the Start” Chapter 9 page 171 where he talks about writing a (car) manual to maximize the brand.
And yes it should be online. Minimally for owners.
# I wrote: “Signature 100 cars aren’t expected until next year ”
# Joseph wrote on August 21st, 2007 at 1:59 pm
## In a recent interview I believe Elon Musk said that they would start delivery of the 100 series this fall,
## and finish delivering all of the 100 series by next year.
I based my comment on the email that was reprinted here:
jalopnik.com/cars/electric-ceo-slide/tesla-motors-founder-martin-eberhard-out-as-ceo-electric-roadster-possibly-delayed-288674.php
That story includes the following quote “we are working to the general timeframe of delivering Founders’ Series cars this year, Signature 100 cars in Q1 2008 and other customers’ cars after Q1 depending on when you placed your reservation.”
I have no crystal ball, but I am sure Martin and crew are working as fast as they can to get everything finalized.
I third that request for the Roadster’s Owners Manual to be available online (a pdf download would be good)
Would be an excellent way to introduce the general public to the details of day to day running of an EV. Additionally, Adobe Acrobat 8 (or above) allows you insert 3D CAD models which can be rotated, zoomed or animated in the pdf document:-
www.adobe.com/products/acrobat3d/
Growing up in Europe, recycling was on my mind as a young boy. Moving to the US in 1994 I could not believe the waste and “throw away” policy. In 1992 I looked into a new business idea with solar power. Living in FL those ideas came back to me year after year (and still do).
After watching “who killed the electric car” I, along probably all of you, got enraged, discouraged, mad and wanted to get even. In fact while I started the movie I was looking online at the same time to see if I could find one until I realized they actually cruched them all.
At the end of the movie I found “Tesla Motors” and am glad someone did what I thought an innovative car should look like.
As a car dealer, dealing exclusively in Ferrari, I admire styling and performance. Tesla has found the right formular at a reasonable price. I wish you would have stuck to the 3-piece headlight assembly but then….my personal choice.
In a recent article about opening dealerships in the country it was mentioned that you did not want to franchise to dealerships because these franchise dealers may make excuses instead of selling the pros of the car. I strongly disagree with that. In fact I would love to be a franchise dealer for Miami and believe me, I would never make excuses for innovation.
Another point to think about:
As a racer (2 Championships last year, one coming this year), I believe that true performance shows on the race track. The big “problem” that Lamborghini has not yet tackled.
Torque is a massive factor on a road course. in working with racing organizations you can create a new class specifically for electric cars. Tackle some of the problems EVs face by solving them on the race track. Beat some “burners” on the track and you create a huge buzz.
I would be very interested in a Tesla race-car.
Racers are problem solvers and innovators. I am sure you can find a great ear with racers and organizations.
Lastly:
think careful about going into the 4-seater business. I believe a car company has to identify itself as a sportscar company or a car company. The Roadster is a sportscar. If you do make the move into racing you will underline that claim. 4-seaters do not fit into that profile. Better to create a new company for that endeavour and keep Tesla as a “sports”car company.
Keep up the good work.
Re: Ronald Greene. Oh Ronald with reference to “The Tesla electric sports car has an idiotic battery pack of Li-on laptop batteries (8631 of them) that cost $20,000″ - what do you think a NanoSafe battery pack will cost to drive the Roadster 200+ miles? I think round about $50 000 maybe more??. Remember the Li-Ion cells were chosen cos they are MASS (MASS, MASS) produced EVERYDAY, which incidentally brings costs DOWN. NanoSafe has a few prototype batteries and some pilot run pack for Phoenix but it is NOT mass produced and therefore EXPENSIVE. It is about cost. One day the NanoSafe batteries will be cost competitive then, I am sure, Tesla will look at them. In the time being leave them to DELIVER their production (vs PROTOTYPE) car to the market. Oh yes and remember their battery has got UN/DOT compliance as well….
Hi Martin,
Well done!!!
I have the solution for increasing the acceptance for electro cars technology and reduce the time charging to les then 5 min. The batched flow productions costs are surely lesser then now. This solution has exceptional and considerable advantages which I like to explain you directly in a face to face meeting.
I hope I have caught your interest with this brief introduction. [Contact details deleted]
Martin’s role: Independent of what his business card says, back in the ICE age (get it?) Martin would have been called the “Spark Plug” of the operation. Since electric cars don’t have spark plugs, perhaps his role in Tesla can best be described as “Starter Capacitor,” the person around whom the company’s creativity and energy revolve. Needless to say, the success of Tesla depends on Martin staying engaged, both financially and emotionally. Given Mr. Musk’s startup background, I’m sure the BOD is aware of this. Print some new business cards and press on!
To Martin W: Interesting post
Regarding dealerships, while I think Tesla would be interested in working with an eager company like yours, the problem is once they step down the dealership path, franchise laws means they lose their ability to have their own company owned stores. They’re very uncomfortable with that.
Regarding racing, Tesla is the only company anywhere near mass production of a racing-class EV. It’s not much of a competition if you’re the only one who shows up
Regarding 4-seaters, I don’t think it’s a huge problem. Ford has the GT, Chevy has the Z06, Dodge has the Viper, and they’re not having much trouble selling those or 4-seaters. Personally, I hope the Tesla WhiteStar sedan has performance and looks similar to a Lancer EVO so I won’t be too embarrassed being seen in one
Greetings…
So this is my first post here since I started following the car, and the Tesla blog, last July. Congratulations to Tesla and Mr. Eberhard! I echo all the sentiments regarding his vision and commitment (and smarts!) already stated in posts above. I love reading about this car company. Roadster– definitely a ‘drooler.’
Wanted to throw out two things:
There’s a movement afoot in industrial and architectural design worldwide to re-examine processes, eliminate toxic ingredients and by-products and produce ‘waste’ that is not only usable but good for the environment. This sounds far out, but the solutions would surprise you. I saw a film recently that demonstrated several examples, at high-end companies. I would like to see the car industry think about how it can move in this direction. Ford made an attempt in 2001 at is Dearborn plant, but it may have petered out. For Tesla to do so successfully, and soon, would be one more factor putting it head and shoulders above the rest. For more info, see designer William McDonough’s book ‘Cradle to Cradle’ or better yet (more fun & exciting) the short film chronicling his transformation of several major companies: “The Next Industrial Revolution.” It’s inspirational. You can get more info / order it online at www.thenextindustrialrevolution.org/
Would love to see Tesla minds respond to this.
Second: last week’s announcement from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, of new “printable” nano-engineered Li-ion batteries / super capacitors in printable, flexible, sheet; here’s the link: news.rpi.edu/update.do
–I wonder if Tesla could work with this or other such energy research groups to develop a proprietary and original battery application from the ground up, as opposed to designing a distribution system (the battery pack) to adapt to off-the-shelf existing design. I took a look at the Lightning Car Company’s prototype, (easy to Google) thanks to the referral above; they make some pretty appealing claims. It would be better for Tesla to be able to beat those stats right out of the gate. I did read Tesla’s engineering blog about the exhaustive testing required for the battery pack’s shipment , UN approval and use; I understand the company has invested a lot already. I just wonder if the cost/benefit may be greater, if this issue is addressed with stepped-up innovation before the second generation car (either Whitestar or a second run of Roadster) comes out –so the buyer feels his/her car’s battery technology is truly state of the art and won’t be obsolete in a year or two.
It’s a pleasure to read everybody’s posts…
Oh, and to reiterate Mr. Illinois’s sentiments above, we got the same problem here; i.e., one mentions EV’s being realistic or sexy around here (NE Florida, cheap energy central up until now), people think you’re a bug from outer space (or lost in the seventies!). I would be willing to work for Tesla personally, marketing the Roadster to all the millionaires out here who may like to avoid thinking about their impact on the environment but deep down (I bet) would love to feel they are part of the solution, not the problem. All they’d need is to see it and drive it… Oh and have someone charismatic like me to talk up all the brilliant design points and bennies…
Thanks and keep it up!
SG
After reading the BBC article “The Electric Cars High-End Revival” by Dan Simmons in the Our Press section of this site I noticed an all too familiar tendency that some journalists and commentators seem to have. The capacity to be able to extoll the virtues of the EV on one hand while on the other hand doing their best to downplay the viability of the EV. In a section of the article titled “The downside” he trys the old “electricity is still not green” argument (which was countered expertly by David Vesperimi) and then trying his best to pigeonhole the Tesla and its technology as a niche technology for the rich, and therefore intentionly or not insinuating that the EV is not going to be a realistic option for the average driver. If people demand something usually someone (like Tesla) will satisfy that demand. I believe the intent is to minimize the demand by not giving truly honest appraisals of the viability of the EV as an option for the majority of drivers. Anyway thats my observation, I could be wrong (or maybe some would say just paranoid). Meanwhile we should appreciate all of the free “press” that we can get.
Is Tesla facing a battle with A123Systems over Patent Infringment? One of the ways that a company knows that it is in the technolgical lead is that other more recent companies try to infring or encroach on their already patented technolgy. A123Sytems is a company that sells lithiumum batteries for use in hand held tools such as
drills and etc. However recently, they have set their sights on the up and coming EV market and are now attempting to build a batterypack for GM’s Chev Volt. What is interesting is that A123Systems has little or no prior experence in actually working with EV’s. For example, at the end of 2005,A123Sytems announced its first product, a cylindrical battery for power tools. Pictures of the Volt then showed these cylindrical batteries. Now however, since I assume that they quickly found out that these
batteries wouldn’t get the car more than a couple of miles they have recently announced the following shift in technology:
A123 is shifting to a much bigger and flat, rather than cylindrical, battery cell that takes up significantly less space. Hundreds of
these would be combined in a large pack, with control electronics and a cooling system, to power the Volt.
It woluld appear to me that A123Systems is simple rediscoveing what Tesla already knows that to get high range out of a lithium battery you need to keep on dividing
the battery into smaller and smaller pieces in order to increase its energy density. In Telsa’s case almost 7,000 individual battery cells while A123Sytems is now in the hundreds. Further,infringment appears to be their new high power management system over the life of the battery. A computer with “crash sensors,inductors,main frame, service plug and etc. See:http://www.a123systems.com/newsite/index.php
The major problem with for example NanoSafe technolgy is low energy density while conventional LI-on batteries such as Tesla uses have close to 200w/kg, NanoSafe Batteries have as little as 1.2kWh. Thus, I do not see how A123Systems will every be able to meet GM’s goal of 40 miles with a small 400lb battery pack. For example, the EV1 using lead-acid batteries from Delco and got 55 to75 miles using a 1,300lbs battery pack. Thus, I do not see that A123Systems will have the battery technolgy to do it and I will not be surprised if another company is then given a shot at it. But it looks to me like GM and other companies might just have to pay Tesla to use thier high power battery ESS system.
# Martin W. wrote on August 22nd, 2007 at 5:01 am
## After watching “who killed the electric car” I, along probably all of you, got enraged, discouraged, mad and wanted to get even.
## In fact while I started the movie I was looking online at the same time to see if I could find one until I realized they actually crushed them all.
Actually, not all.
I found that Rav4EVs were still around in limited numbers, although very expensive.
I ended up buying a used RangerEV. If you cannot afford a Tesla, there are other options still available.
# Martin W. wrote on August 22nd, 2007 at 5:01 am
## As a racer (2 Championships last year, one coming this year), I believe that true performance shows on the race track.
## Torque is a massive factor on a road course. in working with racing organizations you can create a new class specifically
## for electric cars.
## Tackle some of the problems EVs face by solving them on the race track. Beat some “burners” on the track and you create a huge buzz.
## I would be very interested in a Tesla race-car.
## Racers are problem solvers and innovators. I am sure you can find a great ear with racers and organizations.
I have encountered a number of people who hope to someday run a Tesla in a race event.
There is in fact a small, “grassroots” movement who are researching what it would take to install chargers at race courses.
The charge time becomes a real issue at a track. If you plan to drive the car to the track you would want to recharge before the race.
If you wanted to run a “flat out” endurance race you would want to be able to recharge quickly during a “pit stop”.
The news of some vehicles offering “10 minute recharge” time is appealing for such a situation, but so far Tesla hasn’t indicated any offering like that. One group I talked to was under the impression that you could charge a Tesla ESS in 10 minutes if some sort of fast recharge connector modification was done to it. Personally I question if the battery technology being used could ever support a 10 minute recharge, but some people seem to be under the impression that it could be done with some sort of modifications.
Another option would be a “quick change” kit to allow full ESS swaps during a pit stop.
Now keep in mind that Tesla is scrambling to get the street version delivered, so I hope they aren’t currently wasting any resources on planning for future race efforts. I don’t know if Martin is a racer, but I know that Tesla has plenty of staff that are, so rest assured they would do it when they have time. Perhaps in 6 months or a year we can revisit the idea of a Tesla racing division.
I agree with Harley Dave that recharge stations will be needed along the interstate highways. We don’t need the government to install them (except perhaps in remote locales at rest stops), most would be installed at roadside restaurants, motels and hotels, perhaps installed by the utility companies.
But how “fast” should we make the charge stations? Trying to recharge 40 to 50 Kwh in 10 minutes is a big problem, requiring special batteries and pack design, big high voltage high amp cables and plugs, and a major connection to the power grid - in other words, really expensive, perhaps too expensive! Could a more leisurely recharge suffice? Let’s face it, after driving 150 to 200 miles, I’m ready for a break, stretch my legs, have a snack or lunch, and that takes about 45 minutes to an hour or so. Plug the car into a convenient parking lot charge station, swipe my charge card (Ha!) then go have lunch.
At the home charging rate of 240 volt 70 amp, a one hour charge would only add about 65 miles to the driving range, perhaps not enough for a long trip. If we could double power and double the charge rate, then a 1 hour charge would net about 130 miles, much more respectable. Tripling the power/charge rate would get 195 miles of “Go” in an hour - Now we’re talkin! I have no idea what the maximum charge rate is for the Tesla Roadster and the ESS, but I hope it could handle a 1 to 2 hour charge rate.
More important than the charge rate would be the cost to install a charge station. Keeping the installed cost low means being able to install more stations at more locations, reducing the chance of someone not finding any charge stations available when needed. Since a variety of plug-in vehicles will be using these stations, it makes more sense to have the charge controllers on the vehicles, leaving the stations to only handle the metering and billing, supply the desired voltage (220v or 440v), and have a safety power disconnect for ground faults or unplugging.
For motels and hotels, travellers normally stay overnight and get some sleep, so a slower (and cheaper to install!) charge station would be perfect there.
Of course, with unattended charging, there is a risk that some mischevious imp might unplug your car way too early. Perhaps there could be some sort of alert from your car if it is unplugged when you (well, your wireless key fob) are not there - a car alarm? a text message on your cell phone?
Even a 10 minute charge isn’t fast enough for a race. I agree some kind of quick battery swap solution is needed. This would require probably a total redesign of the ESS. I can imagine some sort of system where the ESS is slid out the side of the car on to a cart off some kind, and the new pack is loaded through the same side and attached via robotics on the car itself.
The CEO picks the Latte machines???
In order to fugure out how fast entire battery can be recharged you need to know how fast one individual battery in battery pack can be recharged. That’s all you need to know. I don’t think you can recharge Teslas choise of battery in ten minutes without blowing it up.
For racing you need to be able to run entire race in one charge. There will not be be electric car race with battery charging in the middle of the race in close future. Even if you could recharge it in five seconds that would require so huge amps and volts that I wouldn’t be anywhere near that place…..unless you do it with superconductive wires. Future tech will make that possible. Liquid helium (low temp. superconduction) or nitrogen (high temp superconduction) cooled wire of approx 10 cm diameter (with cooling) could easily sustain something like 10kV/10kA power (assuming I remember correctly). Way more than needed.
So that is future. Question for Tesla Roadster ESS-based race NOW we need to know how long you can run it with that kind of strain. If you are going from max acceleration to max brake at every corner and straight line then that battery will get empty much sooner than 200 miles. If it is enough for half of the range or 100 mile race it would mean 25 laps in 4 mile track. Race duration less than one hour….which might not be a bad thing. If it lasts less than that it couldn’t be used in racing.
With quick battery swapping it wouldn’t be Tesla ESS anymore. It would be something else. But that is something that could be used for longer races. Maybe much lighter and smaller ESS with fast (few secs) swapping could be optimal for racing even for weight/power ratio point of view. If you save weight you could be able to go so much faster that going in pit for swapping batteries gives you faster overall time anyway.
Racing “Roadster” would obviously also have much stronger regenerative braking, higher top speed with whatever gear setting would be optimal and all excess weight stripped out, but rollbars etc. added, so weight could actually go up.
I would like to see racing-tuned Tesla Roadster. Even if it uses different ESS-tech than civilian version of that same car.
# CM wrote
# But how “fast” should we make the charge stations?
The viability of any type of refueling or recharging station relies on average customer behaviour, not the pioneers (or “freaks” depending on your point of view). Indeed, the current distribution of gas stations in the US relies as much on the vast numbers of poor average milage ICE vehicles as on the low price of gas.
Crap milage is good for gas station business.
Average gas milage will have to improve over the next twenty years and as a consequence of more fuel-efficient vehicles for some and increased gas spending for the rest, re-fuelling frequency will fall, driving many gas stations out of business, thinning their numbers to support the changing market.
Hopefully, gas stations on major routes will retain enough business to remain open to support the (reduced number) of road trips taken annually.
The same sort of scenario will be played out far more swiftly for EV charging stations.
We can expect certain US states to embrace EVs more warmly than others, e.g California. Yet even here the narrow market window for commercial fast recharge stations only opens with the rising density of EV traffic but closes again with the rising average range of EV traffic.
The faster the recharge, the greater the charge ($); but unlike rising gas prices, you can choose to ignore commercial rates and just stick with cheaper and slower recharging at home and/or your destination.
The greater the car’s driving range, the more commercial fast charging stations you can drive past and ignore.
The real problem for commercial fast charge stations is that once EV range is acceptable enough to encourage mass vehicle sales, their business viability is compromised.
Crap milage would be great for EV fast recharge stations, but we’re already at 220 miles per recharge.
In an earlier blog I suggested that new charging stations for EV’s would be very different to the current gas stations.
Paraphrasing ‘CM’ I too feel like a break after driving around 200 miles or so and visualize numerous other EV’s hooked up and charging away while I and other drivers are enjoying a meal, swim, sauna or even a movie or motel room.
In some parts of California you have to pay to go to the beach. However this fee is substantially reduced providing a minimal amount is spent on food/drink. I can see a similar set up for the charging of EV’s. e.g. spend $50 at the charge station facilities and the electicity consumed is free.
In other words, the charge stations would for the most part be “selling the sizzle not the sausage”. . . or maybe I’ve been reading too much science fiction lately.
Peter J Hedge
Victoria, BC
##Timo wrote: If it is enough for half of the range or 100 mile race it would mean 25 laps in 4 mile track.
Most race tracks are much shorter than 4 miles and many races are only ten laps. No recharging is necessary and you could probably manage to have 3 heats and a final in a mini championship and not cover more than the 100 miles or so possible at competition speeds. I think it would be great publicity for Tesla but I imagine the cost of providing say ten cars would be prohibitive at this stage of the company’s development. Maybe you could persuade some of the celebrity owners to participate in a charity race in their own, standard Teslas. Clooney and Will I am racing the Governator! Now that I would pay to see!
# Malcolm Wilson wrote on August 23rd, 2007 at 5:23 am
# The real problem for commercial fast charge stations is that once EV range is acceptable enough
# to encourage mass vehicle sales, their business viability is compromised.
This argues strongly for a swappable battery “deposit/return” fast-charge business model. If energy storage systems are built around smaller, interchangeable modules, which could be swapped easily and quickly by hand or with simple equipment, then during the period of battery evolution toward “acceptable” EV range, entrepreneurs could acquire (possibly via lease) equipment to recondition, test, recharge, and swap the standard modules, as well as an initial stock of modules. The cost to enter the business would be low, guranteeing that as many charged-module purveyors as possible would spring up to cater to the demand, perhaps as sideline businesses at other establishements: traditional service stations and garages, auto-parts stores, quick-lube places, Costco, etc. If the key equipment and modules were leased (from Tesla Energy Group, perhaps?), the cost of exit could also be low, meaning that, as easily as participants entered the market when demand was high, they could leave the market as demand fell, resuming full focus on their main business or going into other businesses entirely, in an orderly, reasonable fashion. Just few years after the range of new EVs reached the “acceptable” level, auto parts stores, garages and EV dealerships might be the only places left where one could get a replacement battery module or a quick “swap charge,” which would be appropriate for the number of vehicles that might still need them from time to time.
In contast, build-out of an infrastructure sufficient to provide true quick-charging would take time, be expensive, and leave quick-charge stations holding the bag when the bottom dropped out of that market..
If I were running TEG, I would be about discovering what the optimum form factor and size/weight/current charge capacity would be for a swappable module, then designing and producing the best such module I could. Future Tesla cars could be designed around those modules, and other manufacturers’ vehicles could also use them. Someday, technology may advance to the point that such modules would no longer be necessary, or even cost-effective. But as an enabling technology to get a mass EV industry going as soon as possible, I think this particular development is critical.
We’ll see what the future holds.
Charging Stations: CM - come to think of it we already have charging stations along the Interstates. They’re called “Rest Areas,” located between 40 and 70 miles apart, currently used to recharge us carbon-based life forms…and they already have a business model in place. My wife and I travel between Atlanta and SW Florida several times a year. I keep a list of I75 Rest Areas in my car, ordered by mile marker. Each Rest Area looks to be about a $10M investment in land, building, parking facilities, etc. These are investments we (taxpayers) have already paid for. Today, the “charging stations” are vending machines that pop out soft drinks, candy, etc. The signage says that these machines are owned and operated by some private contractor. So instead of building completely new infrastructure, let’s start with he convenient stops we already have and add curb-side chargers, ultimately licensed from private contractors. The Roadster could have the GPS coordinates of all these stations programmed in so you’d always know where the closest one is located. Each Rest Area would have a URL to allow you to check on number of chargers, availability, utilization, etc. Think of the real estate that will be freed up from old ICE-age gas stations. Drive on!
Martin, the line…
“I initiated a CEO search many months ago as Tesla Motors has grown in size and complexity beyond twice the size and at least five times the complexity of any organization I have run before. I was becoming concerned that my own inexperience with large organizations and operations would soon become a limitation for the company’s success…”
Shows of maturity that you see the company needing a new CEO good at operations replacing you the “Startup CEO”.
It also shows that Tesla Motors now is transitioning from a “cutting edge test lab” to a front running manufacturer.
Great that you stay in the development area, I hope you will find new energy and push the envelope.
Martin: Good for you! You continue to shock the automotive industry, automotive journalists and policy-makers. It was an honor finally meeting you at Pebble Beach earlier this week at the Concours d’Elegance and seeing the Tesla up close. What a great looking car in person! Take care, Shawn Bullard
If you are trying to help the environment by making a car that is totally dependent on electricity, why make it a two-seater? The 100+ thousand dollar price tag is too much for the average consumer also. If you want to help everyone and cut down on the emissions that the gas engines are producing, then come out with an S.U.V. which the average american with 2 to 4 children with friends can live with. You will make a lot more money selling at a lower price aimed toward that soccer mom than you will aiming at the vegas jackass.
# Todd wrote
# If you are trying to help the environment by making a car that is totally dependent on electricity,
# why make it a two-seater?
Hi Todd, a couple of links to help explain the method in their madness:-
www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=8
www.teslamotors.com/display_data/twentyfirstcenturycar.pdf
Todd:
Take a look at Unofficial Tesla Roadster FAQ here: zobeid.zapto.org/caviar/tesla/tesla_roadster_FAQ.html#pricetag (section The People’s Car).
Actually when you are at it, go and read the whole FAQ. You will learn and come up to speed quickly.
This FAQ will probably me moved to www.teslamotorsclub.com
Todd, you’ll want to read this blog about the companies plans: www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=8
To summarize: the company can’t make inexpensive cars until it reaches higher sales volumes. As a startup, it can’t expect to reach high sales volumes right away. Instead, start with a low volume, high price car, then create progressively higher volume and lower price cars as the company grows.
It’s brilliant, actually, since it recognizes that all new technology starts out expensive and gets progressively less so as it catches on and economies of scale take over. When VCRs first came out, they cost $2000. Now they are less than $50. If you tried to make a $50 VCR right from the start, you would get nowhere, but that is exactly how other electric vehicle companies have tried to operate and they all failed. Tesla has learned from others mistakes and charted a smarter, better course.
I had a good laugh over the Malcom W. post, and the part about how producing four seaters doesn’t fit with the racing profile. So are you referring to BMW, Mercedes, Renault, Toyota, and Honda, which all produce four seaters and race in Formula One? Or are you referring to GM, Ford, Chrysler, and Toyota, which all produce four seaters and race in NASCAR? Besides, Tesla never said they were interested in racing anyway, that’s only your idea, They just want to be a high performance electric car company, which already doesn’t fit with any other extablished profile, so I don’t think they care much about profiles. It is an amusing post though!
Despite the amount of people who say this and the amount of times I have replied to it, I still feel the urge to do so again. This is not because of how important I view evs, but because of how much it irritates me that so many people fail to see, or even try to see, beyond what jumps in their faces.
Todd:
1. They are not just trying to help the environment; they also want to make money.
2. All new technologies start on the high end. There were no low-priced lap-tops at the beginning, nor refrigorators, nor washing machines, nor cell phones, not even ice cars.
They were all the domain of the rich. Now, with market penetration, the rest can afford them.
Do evs have market penetration?
3. Low priced vehicles at high quality are only possible with mass production. This is a small company which by definition can not mass produce.
If you want to point the finger, you might find appropriate culprits in Detroit.
4. The average consumer isn’t interested in an electric car.
Evs have a negative image. This car is intended, amoung other things, to change the perception.
It is one of the most important affects of what Tesla is doing. They can not change the world alone, but can get the ball rolling. They can show people that the ball even exists and actually can roll.
5. Another (small) company are coming out with an electric suv. They all can not offer a full range. Again, look to those who could, but will not.
6. Tesla is not soley responsible.
Ordinary people have to do something too. And getting rid of the idea that with only 2-4 children you absolutely need to have a big gas-guzzling, polluting, middle-east terrorist enriching, America destroying suv just to get around is something that has to be tackled also.
7. That soccer mom and her soccer husband have to be re-educated from the wastefulness that has be indoctinated into american society since the second world war before there is even a point in offering them an ev the could afford.
This can only work if the government would at least stop making such improvements difficult and the status quo so profitable.
As long as big business, and not public money, pays for campains, this corruption will continue.
You work for those who pay for you…
No average anyone needs an suv. Except the average idiot.
To Todd.
Roadster is just “phase one” electric car that is designed to give Tesla starting money. Sexy, interesting luxury sportscar. Phase two “Whitestar” will be much cheaper (60k$ IIRC) family sedan and after that there will be even cheaper approx 30k$ smal runabout. At that point Tesla has grown big enough to make all models we need. Or not. Future will tell.
This far this plan has been working just fine. Tesla group has sold more of those 100k$ cars than I would have expected for unfinished product.
I think one good point of making Roadster first is that it is good car to break some prejudices about electric cars. I think most people think that EV:s are impractical slow toys for treehuggers. EV that manages to outrun gasoline cars *AND* look cool at the same time is perfect car for that purpose. SUV, no matter how practical, could not do that same.
Actually it seems that Tesla is saying the same: www.teslamotors.com/learn_more/our_company.php
Competition makes things happen. With vehicles, it will be a race between pure electrics and series six stroke(or using a late stroke water injection) hybrids, either way one hundred miles per gallon is easlily achievable. As battery and ultracapacitors come down in price, so will the cost of algae based biodiesel. It’s still a political problem. This is because the entrenched business models will fight with everything they have to preserve the status quoe for no organism or organization dies or shrinks willingly. This will apply to all forms of power, both stationary and transportation. There are at least several thousand organizations working on energy projects of every shape and stripe around the world. Massive amounts of labor and capital are being applied to power and transport on a scale that would be unprecendented just twenty years ago. The hardest part for anyone or organization will not be the problem itself, but picking from a vast number of solutions to any problem. Globalization of capital, labor, logistics and communications have changed all the rules and few people are seeing it. The US can no longer assume it will stay the world leader. It is time for poiticians and the government to get out of the way, their only job should be to create a level playing field and remove political barriers. Unfortunaltely as demonstrated by the corn to ethonal among others fiasco US politicians are demonstrating their ineptitude. To stay on top US politicians must change for they are the biggest threat to the nation. As history has shown, most great empires collapse from the inside when their focus becomes not advancing the common good, but protecting special interests.
My vision for electric vehicles is for a sophisticated van shape with a six by twelve roof high efficiency solar panel providing the bulk of the power needed supplemented by on board generater or plugging in. As far as sophisticated high cost materials involved, recycling combined with a financial instrument covering the core charge will solve that problem if it even comes up. Why use the roof for paint that just goes bad?
I think ‘Harley Dave’ makes an excellent point in his suggestion to utilize already existing “rest stops” for charging stations. Of course it will take a few years until there are more EV’s on the road but eventually I can see astute businesspeople capitalizing on their growng number and inclding it on their bill-boards” Free charging for EV’s!”
Meantime, Todd, please read some of Tesla’s archived blogs. A $100,000 electric sportscar may seem at first to be a “non-starter” - pun intended - put in fact it is a stroke of marketing genius that has been discussed, and debated many,many time on this site.
Peter J Hedge
Victoria, BC
Todd, read this:
www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=8
#Todd wrote on August 23rd, 2007 at 9:42 pm
#If you want to help everyone and cut down on the emissions that the gas engines are producing, then come out with an S.U.V. which the average american
#with 2 to 4 children with friends can live with.
You might find a way to nuance your arguments in these links:
Electrics at different prices points on the way.
www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=8
The People’s Car: Why the Roadster is so expensive
zobeid.zapto.org/caviar/tesla/tesla_roadster_FAQ.html#pricetag
$70K Electric SUV: Electric Cars Aren’t Cheap No Matter What!
www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/
I agree with Todd. I furthermore believe it would be much wiser to use a currently exisiting vehicle (SUV, mini-van) platform and convert that to use the Tesla ESS and driveline. Similar concept to the Toyota Synergy drive going into other hybrids. This will save countless years worth of effort designing from scratch.
Ouch, poor Todd… kindof highlights a problem with the current moderation system. If the Editor is busy or comments are posted outside the usual 9-5 shift, a lot of people will provide the same answers repeatedly.
The moderation is good to block the spam, but perhaps an assistant Editor or two is needed, to keep the comments flowing smoothly?
# James wrote on August 24th, 2007 at 8:57 am
## I believe it would be much wiser to use a currently existing vehicle (SUV, mini-van) platform and convert that to use the Tesla ESS and driveline.
## Similar concept to the Toyota Synergy drive going into other hybrids. This will save countless years worth of effort designing from scratch.
Something like the ACP eBox?
www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/
www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1084
I agree, why reinvent the wheel for the Whitestar. But didn’t Tesla use the Lotus Elis body and do what most people are suggesting?
Better yet, use such a car with such flexible chassis that you can just pop one body off and place another one on.
>> My vision for electric vehicles is for a sophisticated van shape with a six by twelve roof high efficiency solar panel providing the bulk of the power needed supplemented by on board generater or plugging in.
Bulk of it? It may be your vision but you’d be very disappointed if it ever came true. It is just physics that doesn’t want to do it.
By “six by twelve roof” you probably mean roof dimensions in feet. Well, power density of solar rays on the Earth surface is at most 1kW per square meter. On equator, at noon, clear blue sky. Six by twelve feet translates into 8 square meters giving you maximum 8kW of power. With 100% efficient solar panels that do not exists and are not possible. Non existent but maybe possible in the future 60% efficient solar panels would give you around 5kW of power with you still on equator at noon with clear blue sky. Move a little bit north in the afternoon with some clouds and that power drops *significantly* - think 1 or 2kW. That power may just suffice for air conditioning but could never provide the bulk of needed power. Maybe just maybe it could move it at 5mph.
To hell with roofmounted solar panels. Mount them on your garage not on the car.
You will be remembered by me as one of the men who saved the planet. I am sure you have some flaws because you are human; but they are irrelevant to the overwhelming good you’ve accomplished.
thank you.
# WarpedOne wrote on August 24th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
## To hell with roofmounted solar panels. Mount them on your garage not on the car.
Warped, I mostly agree with you, although some people have short commutes and then their vehicle sits in the sun all day.
Even if you only had 1kW solar panels, you could charge up maybe 8kWh during the day which could be enough to make the trip back home.
The best thing would be if apartments and businesses had solar car ports everywhere with re-charge hookups.
Martin,
The old axiom goes that a man’s character can be determined by the company he keeps. To that end, I congratulate you and Tesla on your recent INDEX Award.
news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=Electric+Car%2C+Cheap+PC+Win+INDEX+Prize&btnG=Search+News
Mark
Arthur W. Hanson : My vision for electric vehicles is for a sophisticated van shape with a six by twelve roof high efficiency solar panel
Your vision is a good one. Dream big. Someday it may come true.
I just ran across an interesting business transaction that has recieved almost no press. Debeers of South Africa is betting on algae to oil. They bought the MIT plant and are moving it to South Africa and building biofuel plants that will run on other raw materials until the algae comes on line. These people are smart and have a long track record of navigating and controlling markets with unmatched skill (they even brought Russia to their knees when they didn’t want to play ball in diamond marketing). I feel they are doing this because the diamond business is about due for a fall brought by man made diamonds being produced by Appolo dIamonds and others. Any comments or people with knowlege of this I would appreciate the input
As far as the solar roof on a van, if we could capture just thirty percent of the power hitting a panel of that size and this is within easy reach, it would be a significant contribution to the power needed for the average dailey commute.
Calculations, 1.5 kw per hr at six hours a day x seven days 63 kwh, one full battery pack good for over two hundred miles a week, not that far out. especially if parked under flat freshnel or holographic cover that would be inexpensive when mass produced could double this. Lack of creativity and imagination is all that is lacking to solve most problems. As I have said, most problems are more political than technical.
Ronald Greene wrote on August 18th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
*GM did the research on this and it certainly does does help us. A range extender increases the range of a fully electric car and that has got to be a good thing.
If it has one of these range extenders then it is NOT afully electric! DUH!
Ronald Greene wrote on August 20th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
*If I were to buy an electric car, which I would like to do, I would insist that its batteires be at least as good or better than Altair’s NanoSafe batteries.
Why are you so insistant on having the price of the Tesla skyrocket because you want it to use amuch more expensive and not yet properly tested technology? DUH!!
Ronald Greene wrote on August 22nd, 2007 at 11:15 am
* it looks to me like GM and other companies might just have to pay Tesla to use thier high power battery ESS system.
Do you even know what you want? First you want a range extender. Then you want the “Nano”whatziz crap. Now you seem to be behind Tesla 100%. Are you a politician? You also have managed to mention GM and the Volt quite a bit. Perhaps you work for GM?
BTW: Keep up the outstanding work Tesla. America needs your kind of leadership!
Martin,
Well done lad. You and your team did an amazing job getting the Company started and the development cycle basically complete. One of the hardest and yet wisest decisions a
CEO at a startup can make is to decide when it’s better that the Company s/he started is under the leadership of someone with a different skill set, experience, aptitudes, etc. to take the
Company to the next phase of its existence. I know because I’ve worked at 2 startups during my like. The decision itself attributes many positive traits to the individual making the decision.
And for heaven’s sake, pay no attention to the peanut gallery who bring nothing to the table. They are quite literally not worth your time or effort.
Go Tesla, Go !!!!
Arthur W. Hanson: Terrific idea, slight modification. A series of 6? large flat mirrors arranged in an arc over the open roof carport tracking the sun to shine on solar cells on roof of van. 48% (up to theoretical 76%) solar cells are coming from RoseStreet Labs in 2010.
Martin,
I can only imagine how it must feel to give up control of magic in the making. As said earlier, it is the mark of a truely (emotionally) inteligent person who can put aside person for the better good.
As a lurker from when Tesla was only a rummor (and before to AC prop), I too feel part of the tesla experience and have touted to many non believers (just look at my email address to see where my roots lie
.
Keep up the magic!
Mike
I think some people misconstrued my meaning of the roof top solar panels, they are meant to provide a significant portion of the power for most drivers. Between the panels and a standard 20 amp 110 ac circut or a small auxillary power generater and the panels the power provided would be more than enough for all but the heaviest users.
To Arthur W. Hanson
Didn’t you read the math about solar panels? In ordinary sunny day that kind of solar panel gives you approx 1kW of power if you use high-tech panels. That kind of power can hardly even move a normal car if you also use AC, lights etc. That would be like running your car with starting engine of normal combustion engine. It isn’t even close to be enough. And in night you wouldn’t be moving at all. In northern parts of the US and Europe you couldn’t get even that 1kW in winter. 20A 110V is 2.2kW. Same there. It hardly even moves the car. Think of it: 1kW is 1.35 hp. That is like having weak moped engine in a car.
Solar panel could be used to recharge batteries while car is parked in parking lot outside of your office. In eight hours that generates 8kWh which is quite good for saving some grid power. But for moving car it just isn’t enough.
53kWh battery can move Roadster…lets say 230miles or 368km. I think that is using 60mil/h speed which is 96km/h. 368/96 = 3,8 hours. 53kWh/3.8 is approx 14kW. That is what you need to run car at highway speeds on average without accelerations. During acceleration it uses more. Quite a bit more. With near-perfect shape and rolling resistance cut to minimum you could get down to 10kW, but 1kW? Acceleration from 0 to 10miles/hour couple of weeks. And faster you couldn’t go unless there is a steep downhill.
That would be exactly the “punishment car” Tesla is talking about. Tiny three-wheeler for handicaps. A boosted up electric wheelchair with cabin. Nobody and I mean _nobody_ would buy such a car.
No, solar panels would not be useful in cars except for charging slowly when car is parked. They would be even more useful in rooftop of your house where you can build up much bigger solar panels for charging your car (or garage charger battery when your car is out).
While solar power built into the car’s surface is pretty minimal, and there is all of the added complexity of additional wiring in solar panels, safety concerns etc… I think there is another aftermarket solution.
I think that an aftermarket solar cover that can plug into the car would be much better.
1. It covers a LOT more surface area.
2. The complexity is not built into the car itself.
3. It can be easily replaced as solar fabric solutions improve in efficiencies.
4. It could spread out far past the car “IF” you had room for it.
5. I could also double as a….. wait for it… “car cover” protecting your paint and interior and maybe keeping your car cooler during the summer months.
Of course I wouldn’t expect a solution like this to be remotely cost effective at first. In fact I’m quite sure it would be far cheaper to top your car off at night on off peak elecricity than purchasing a solar car cover like this, but trickle charging for 9 hours a day during peak sun hours could be of some value. Especially as I pointed out if it was a very nice car cover as well
I’m sure someone could sell a lot of these, eventually.
Considering they are selling this to the military, it is probably too costly, but they have a 1Kw and 2KW (15.4V x 65 Amps or 15.4V x 130 Amps ) Power Shade available. Of course the 2KW power shade is 40′ by 22′ so it would need space.
www.powerfilmsolar.com/products/military/armytents/index.htm
Still I think the idea holds promise for a car cover. They offer an AC adapter that would proved a 110V output that should just plug into the Tesla like any other 110 plug.
For the dimensions of a car this technology, might make 550 - 750 Watts per hour. So maybe you could replenish 3-4 KW/hr of energy each day at work. That would be maybe half a battery charge. So if you only drove 110 miles to and from work each week, and you had sun year round, and you put the cover on every day, maybe it would be of slight benefit.
Maybe it would be just enough juice to keep the battery warm in cold weather, or just enough to help cool the car in warm weather. Either way it works out to pennies a day in charging which makes it Extremely non-cost effective.
To: Bruce P. wrote on August 26th at 6:11 am -
1. If it has one of these range extenders then it is not fully electric. The fact is that GM developed the range extender on the EV1 which was a fully electric car
and was able to extend its range to 300+ miles. All a range extender does is to recharge the battery which is what every electric car needs to do anyway at
the end of the day. Let’s see by your logic no one should recharge their batteries because then the car is not fully electric. What the range extender does is to
give the driver the choice of when and where to recharge the batteries and that is of course when the batteries get low and it does so without having to take the car
back to your house and then plug it in. Further advantages of the range extenders are that while most Americans may have garages a lot of people live in apartments and how are they going to recharge their cars such as the Tesla as it is not practicle to run high voltage cords for serveral blocks to where the car may be parked. Another advantage of the range extender is that it can be used to lower the price of the car as it allows you to minimize the size of the battery pack because the car can always be recharged while driving it. For example, the Volt can use a much smaller battery pack 400 lbs vs. 900 lbs in the Tesla which it must use because it does not have a range extender. Thus, the range extender helps to lower the cost of the car by reducing the size of the battery pack the EV needs saving
you lots of money. The Volt will sell for about $30,000 plus less then $10,000 for the smaller battery pack as it now looks.
Ronald,
Without putting too fine a point on it, the VAST majority who own a new Porsche or Ferrari, keep their car in a garage as do most 5 series BMW owners. That covers the markets that the Tesla Roadster and WhiteStar occupy.
There is a HUGE gain by recharging off of the Grid in terms of pollution generated, efficient conversion of fuel into electricity and energy cost to the consumer. Burning gas to generate electricity is extremely inefficient and will cost the car owner a LOT more per mile driven.
The Volt is in a different market with Tesla’s BlueStar which is projected to be a $30,000 plugin electric that may have a range extender on it. So it appears that when Tesla gets to the point of building a car that competes with the Volt ( assuming GM actually builds it) Tesla may even have a price advantage.
Keep the big picture in perspective. Tesla is, and their planned products show that very clearly.
Ronald Greene wrote about range extenders.
Questions: How much does range extender weight? How much does used fuel weight? How much does fuel tank weight? Did Volt get its 300+ miles with that 400lbs battery pack? How much fuel does that range extender use / hour?
I see range extender as a new kind of hybrid. It is not fully electric because it uses fuel.
You have a good point though. It is true that in cities not everybody have garage where they can charge their EV:s. That means that there will be some sort of charging stations once EV:s get more common. Garage space would get huge value jump. That also means that fast charging batteries is what you will need in future. No 3.5 hour charging but 10-15 minute charging minimum.
About saved money for smaller battery pack, it is saved money only for moment you buy that car. You would need to buy fuel for your range extender which makes driving it more expensive. I just few months ago calculated that Tesla Roadster would have paid itself back within 100000 km if you compare it to Lotus Elise just because Roadster is so much cheaper to keep. Also batteries will get cheaper. A lot cheaper. And fossil fuels get more expensive (I hope, for environments sake).
Range extender could be good now but gets obsolete really fast.
# Timo wrote on August 28th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
## You have a good point though. It is true that in cities not everybody have garage where they can charge their EV:s.
Just as an “FYI”, not everyone charges their EVs in a garage.
Myself, and many other EV owners I have seen, charge in their open driveway, or even (in some cases) on the street if they own property against the sidewalk.
The real “have vs have nots” are those who own property (so they can install the charger and solar panels) vs renters who are far less likely to be able to convince a landlord to allow such things.
You don’t need a mansion with a private garage to support an EV, but a hybrid vehicle with some sort of on-board generator is nearly a necessity for apartment and condo dwellers unless their employer offers charging spots at work.
T-rex “Silence” getting set to arrive in California soon:
www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/business/story.html?id=fd3876be-2d42-4ddb-93cc-ac0b2296fdc9
#TEG2 wrote on August 28th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
## You don’t need a mansion with a private garage to support an EV, but a hybrid
## vehicle with some sort of on-board generator is nearly a necessity for apartment
## and condo dwellers unless their employer offers charging spots at work.
I see this as transitional phase to true EV culture. What we need for those that need hybrids is charging stations. It will be much like it is with gasoline cars now, except that it will be much cheaper to charge your car yourself if you have space to put on chargers. Maybe rental charging spots in driveways for slower nightime charging.
It might even be that even that charging at home could be possible in theory apartment grid connection might not sustain many chargers at the same time, in which case even if you own garage you still couldn’t install charger.
In anyway it will make quite a change in car culture. It creates inequality between people that own property and those that don’t.
Solutions anyone? It seems that this affects more than just cars.
Do you think the T-Rex Silence vehicle will take care of some of the demand for an electric motorcycle?
to Timo
So the vehicle roof top solar panels provide half the power needed and you have a set of panels on your roof that can provide the rest from storage or an ultra small six stroke diesel, Advanced Propulsion Technologies diesel, or water injection diesel( water injected after fuel ignition after tdc that utilizes waste heat and like the six stroke needs no water jacket ) to provide the rest of the power and running on biodiesel from algae. A modified van shape can be very aerodynamic and when fitted with high pressure, low rolling resistance tires, wheel skirts and a few things the Tesla doesn’t have could be just as efficient as the Tesla and weigh the same. For reference look at the Loremo car and a modified design to have a flater roof and this puts everything within parameters needed to make a vehicle partially self sustaining as far as energy for even normal use and totally self sufficient for light use (160 miles a week). Remember technology as far as structure, shape, materials, diesel engines, batteries, electric motors and everything else is advancing at a rate unprecendented just fifteen years ago. Note, the Loremo doesn’t even use expensive materials.
Martin Eberhard said:
“And we have accomplished one more big thing: We got the world to re-think electric cars. Far from dead, far from punishment cars, electric cars are now widely seen as the exciting future of the automobile…” That’s the underlying theme of the Tesla fans here: All-electric vehicles are THE EXCITING FUTURE of the automobile.
I’m not a car guy. My father was born in 1932, and he is a genuine car guy. He reads car magazines; I don’t. I would prefer that my vehicle look nice and accelerate quickly, but I mainly want it to consistently start and keep running with minimal maintenance. And since I live at the bottom of a hill in snow country, I need all-wheel drive. Or at least, front-wheel drive.
For me, the idea of replacing the internal combustion engine (with its multiple systems) with a much cleaner battery pack, electric motor and two-speed transmission is captivating. Yes, the software involved is too complex for me to mess with, but everything else is relatively simple. I’m hoping that I’ll be able to plug the car into the home computer, run a system check, and send the data to Tesla for analysis, and - even more hope - allow software upgrades/repairs online. From my own garage, not a Tesla store. We’ll eagerly watch and see how those things work out.
P.S. We need you wealthy folks to be early adopters, making Tesla successful quickly. We’re a family of four with one income, so I’ll probably never own a Roadster. But I’m counting of buying a WhiteStar (or something similar) before the kids leave home.
Going off on another topic, I’m curious about how much thought has gone into this CEO change in terms of making sure that the incoming head really does understand the business and in particular the niche business that Tesla is getting into. I’m talking specifically the EV market, and the bold vision that Tesla Motors seems to be taking on trying to work with and expand that market.
One company that I think can compare favorably with Tesla Motors is Apple Computer, where from a business perspective they made several “correct” decisions early on in the history of their company. One nearly disasterous decision in terms of hiring a new CEO was during the era of having Scully, a former Pepsi executive, take over as the leading executive officer. Certainly he understood business in a broad general perspective, and there was some good that happened at Apple during his tenure as a result. But he didn’t understand the emerging microcomputer industry nor really took advantage of the strengths of the company he was leading. For example, I highly doubt that under Scully that Apple would have been producing the iPod or iPhone, which have been some of the most profitable product lines for the company in its entire history.
It is also a concern in terms of how a corporate culture changes when people from a traditional business background come into a dynamic and successful young start-up company and push for more traditional business practices. Again, some of this can be beneficial, but just as often you see some managers come in and kill the spirit of innovation, not to mention the open lines of communication between the CEO and the individual employees who actually get the work of the company done. The real trick, when you are on the cusp of a major growth spurt like Tesla appears to be heading to, is how to maintain that same openness but at the same time not to let corruption come into the company (aka Enron). Some petty “empire building” is inevitable, but even that can and should be kept under control.
This is a tough tight-rope act for Martin to try and work with, in terms of not only if he needs to give up the helm but to whom he is going to let take over the company. I’m sure Martin has given all of these concepts some hard thought, and feels strongly that Michael is the best man for the job. I wish the both of them success in their new positions, and look forward to some exciting times from Tesla Motors.
Update, Debeers is planning on eighty plants producing 20 million barrels of biodiesel within eighteen months. Debeers has been building complex large operations for over a century and has unmatched state of the art engineering talent in many areas and can buy what it doesn’t have being one of the most cash rich companies in the world. Debeers doesn’t lose money and will show the way to large scale biofuel production on a fast track that others will surely follow. Bad news for the oil companies. By the way, the bioreactors consume sewage and co2, good news for the environment. With allgae you could supply all the worlds oil on four thousand square miles and using salt water if fresh is lacking.
On ‘Range Extenders,’ Chevy Volt, etc. All of these schemes fall into the category of Serial Hybrid. The most common serial hybrid, but most people don’t know it, is today’s diesel locomotive. It’s diesel all right, but that diesel engine is turning a generator that powers four electric motors. These things are so big they don’t use batteries…that would be one heck of a battery. Today’s hybrid cars (Prius, et al.) are parallel hybrids where either the ICE or the electric motor can turn the wheels. In a serial hybrid, only the electric motor can turn the wheels. There’s really nothing new here, this technology has been around for a long time. Serial hybrids make a lot more sense than parallel. Fewer moving parts, and when you do need the engine, it can run at constant speed and lower RPMs.
To: Harley Dave wrote on August 29th, 2007 at 8;25 am: Yes, GM has been building those diesel locomotives for a long time and thats where the idea for the volt comes from. Needless to say the EV1 fell far short of the kind of performance that the public expects from an EV, read EV1 Club Trips and Techniques for the actual driving experience: http://ev1- club.power.net/triptech.htm (see San Diego Trip, by Geoff Sommer). Well, GM realized that they needed an EV that you would not need
to worry about range, use of the air conditioning, heater, hills or any other things that normally affects its range. If you needed to, you could drive the Volt right off the generator and while other EV’s will be slowed down by hills , head winds and so forth the Volt will keep right on rolling and if you put a range extender on
the Tesla it could be driven clear across the U.S. just like an ICE.
# Arthur W. Hanson wrote on August 29th, 2007 at 3:54 am
## to Timo
## So the vehicle roof top solar panels provide half the power needed and
## you have a set of panels on your roof that can provide the rest from storage
## or …. to provide the rest of the power.
Problem is that that vehicle rooftop solar panel doesn’t provide half. It provides less than _one tenth_ of the power needed. And that only in daytime and in open area into middle of Sahara desert where there isn’t anything blocking sun. Drive in shadow of a some building and it stops working. In reality you might get about 20-55W/m^2 which means that if you cover entire Van roof with it you might get maybe 1kW out of it. And that is if you direct your car roof at the sun. In bright sunny day Which will not be the case most of the time.
1kW. One. Tesla Roadster, when driven carefully, uses about 15kW just to keep on moving at highway speeds. That doesn’t count any accelerations.
Read en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power. It is pretty much physical impossibility to make practical vehicle with solar panels as main power source.
I don’t quite get that “…and you have a set of panels on your roof that can provide rest from storage…” What roof? Do you mean some building roof? That can’t help without batteries to store that energy. And if you have those batteries you have Tesla-like battery EV with solar panel in roof for slow charging in bright sunny summer day. For that solar panels are quite good.
# Ronald Greene wrote on August 29th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
# Well, GM realized that they needed an EV that you would not need to worry about range,
# use of the air conditioning, heater, hills or any other things that normally affects its range.
Just like every car?
# If you needed to, you could drive the Volt right off the generator and while other EV’s will
# be slowed down by hills , head winds and so forth
I don’t think those would slow down Tesla Roadster any more than they would slow down Lotus Elise. Those do affect the range you can get _with single charge_ but then again those do affect fuel consumption of ICE too. Add fast charging and service stations for EV:s and Volt consept is obsolete.
# the Volt will keep right on rolling
If you stop by a gas station every now and then that is. It is not EV.
# and if you put a range extender on the Tesla it could be
# driven clear across the U.S. just like an ICE.
With one tank of fuel? I don’t think so.
What you have is yet another kind of hybrid, that’s all. Volt isn’t pure EV like Tesla Roadster. It cost more to drive, it will break down easier, it needs service more often and the most aggravating thing is that it has an combustion engine in it.
Volt could be useful for transitional phase to pure EV:s when service stations for EV:s don’t yet exist. That’s all.
Frankly what you are writing sounds like big oil companies trying to slow down transition to pure EV culture. GM has realized that EV:s are a real threat in near future and tries to keep its oil-moneymaking connections alive while pretending to be developing EV:s. This “EV” they have now done is something they could have done 20 years ago. Nothing new in that area.
Timo Pietilä
In response to a solar car cover: I ran the numbers and figured you could fit 12 of the large Power Film strips on a Roadster car cover. They produce 1.2 amps at 15.4 volts each. If my math is correct, you could make a car cover for ~$6k, which would produce about .15kwh a day. It is a great idea but unfortunately not very beneficial or cost effective.
Brandon wrote on August 30th, 2007 at 9:18 am
“In response to a solar car cover: I ran the numbers and figured you could fit 12 of the large Power Film strips on a Roadster car cover. They produce 1.2 amps at 15.4 volts each. If my math is correct, you could make a car cover for ~$6k, which would produce about .15kwh a day. ”
It does make me wonder what this costs. 65Amps @ 15.4Volts = 1001Watts or 1KW/hr ( Full Sun Output Rating)
I would guess that it should generate at least 3 KW/hr’s per day in sunny climates when your car is parked for a full work day.
www.powerfilmsolar.com/products/military/armytents/downloads/Power%20Shade.pdf
Any guesses on the price?
It is portable which is cool, but it does seem that if you are anywhere on a nearly permenant basis that setting up real solar panels would be the way to go.
Timo wrote, “That would be exactly the ‘punishment car’ Tesla is talking about. Tiny three-wheeler for handicaps. A boosted up electric wheelchair with cabin. Nobody and I mean _nobody_ would buy such a car.”
ZAP is bragging that they have shipped over 500 of their Xebra cars, which seem like “punishment cars” under your and Tesla’s definition. 500+ is not exactly nobody, and the numbers can only go up from there. Videos made by Xebra owners indicate that they seem also to be having fun or using the cars for practical purposes, so we’re not talking about paperweights or doorstops here.
Just because your hyperbole knob goes up to 11, doesn’t mean you should crank it up that high; ya could blow a fuse.
# James Anderson Merritt wrote on August 30th, 2007 at 10:45 am
## Timo wrote, “That would be exactly the ‘punishment car’ Tesla is talking about.
## Tiny three-wheeler for handicaps. A boosted up electric wheelchair with cabin.
## Nobody and I mean _nobody_ would buy such a car.”
## ZAP is bragging that they have shipped over 500 of their Xebra cars, which seem
## like “punishment cars” under your and Tesla’s definition.
That Zap Xebra is punishement car but that is a rocket compared to what was proposed. I didn’t refer to real punishmet EV:s. What was proposed was a joke for a car. It was a Van with moped engine. I just looked for a electric wheelchair from Web and one that I found had 435W engine. What was proposed was getting 1kW. So it would be two wheelchair engines in full-size Van. Now _who_ would buy that?
(forwarded message)
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20438234/site/newsweek/
Honda decides that it was a mistake to produce hybrid versions of existing cars, because it turns out that people buy hybrids, in part, to be noticed. Honda will release a new hybrid-only vehicle in 2009; it will have a new powertrain, start at around $22,000, and should get even better gas mileage than today’s Prius.
Toyota has apparently decided to turn Prius into a brand name like Scion. 2009 will see three Prius-brand models: a small car, a family car, and a CUV.
A pretty amazing quote from the President of Toyota U.S. President, Jim Press:
“Ten years ago people tried the Prius because it was a Toyota,” says Press. “Today, people are buying Toyotas because we have the Prius.”
Tesla chargers going into 3 Hyatt hotels:
www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/08/30/BUKERRNPR.DTL
“Hyatt will install Tesla recharging stations at three hotels, stretching in an arc from San Francisco to Lake Tahoe. The two companies announced the agreement Wednesday at Hyatt’s Fisherman’s Wharf hotel, where a handful of surprised tourists watched Mayor Gavin Newsom take one of the gleaming, all-electric sports cars for a spin.”
“By placing rechargers at Hyatts at Fisherman’s Wharf, Sacramento and Incline Village on Tahoe’s North Shore, a Tesla owner could drive from San Francisco to the lake without fear of running out of juice.”
# TEG2 wrote on August 30th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
# Tesla chargers going into 3 Hyatt hotels:
# www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/08/30/BUKERRNPR.DTL
And so it begins….
I find it unbelievable that in 2007 people can be critics of those who create reasons for humankind to be cheerful; that perhaps, just perhaps thanks to the likes of those who create companies like Tesla those people have given our global village a chance that we all may survive humankind’s depraved indifference to our global villages welfare.
Tesla in Tahoe:
www.tahoebonanza.com/article/20070831/News/108310058/-1/rss02
Have you folks considered building a Hybrid Adapter — to convert any car into hybrid?? With your experience — you are the logical choice.
peswiki.com/index.php/Hybrid_Adapter
I like how this is starting.
Many months ago, I had thought that the natural way of this was to have recharging stations at hotels. Even the thought of a Rental car fleet with nearby hotels with chargers sounded very plausible. It sounds like Tesla is taking the first steps to making a business model out of this.
#BT Slader wrote on August 31st, 2007 at 7:01 pm
#Have you folks considered building a Hybrid Adapter — to convert any car into hybrid?? With your experience — you are the logical choice.
JB Straubel, TM’s CTO, designed something similar. You can read about his experiences and conclusions here:
www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher2.htm
In general, however, I believe TM wants to become a car company rather than a provider of adaptors for other makes.
What’s like to drive an all electric car across America. Didn’t think it could be done but was done by Kris Trexler who drove his GM EV1 on a 3,275 mile cross country trip without burning a drop of gasoline on May 12, 1998. Read “Charge Across America” to see how he did it with only an 80 mile range. It took the EV1
three weeks to make the trip which the volt could do in 3 or 4 days. I think the advantage of having an automatic charging system built into the EV should be
quite clear once you get out into the countryside. Source:http://www.ev1.pair.com/charge_across_america/charge_html/chargehome.html
It was time that cars turn from oil to electric …. thanks
When it will be possible to have tesla motors in Europe ?
Ciao.
MG
# Ronald Greene wrote on September 1st, 2007 at 3:23 pm
## What’s like to drive an all electric car across America.
…
## It took the EV1 three weeks to make the trip which the volt could do
## in 3 or 4 days.
As would any other ICE car. Volt is just a hybrid. Nothing more.
Lets calculate what it could take for Telsa roadster if you have charging stations:
200 miles / charge. With 60miles / h that is little bit over three hours of driving and then you use same to charge. So for each 200 miles you use approx seven hours. You get one charge at day and one at night with 14 hours of daily driving. Roughly 400 miles / day maybe little more. 7-8 days.
Volt can do up to 680 miles before fuel tank is empty. Then you need to add fuel to that _and_ charge batteries which takes some time. That is pretty much what you could drive / day if you are planning to eat and stretch your legs a bit. 3275 / 680 = little less than five days. Maybe four if you drive a little after you have filled your tank and then again fill it at morning. You save three to four days compared to Tesla Roadster.
And you have burned approx 58 gallons of fuel with Volt. None with Tesla.
And that is with Teslas _slow_ charging. Batteries will get better. You can get that charging down to ten minutes instead of 3.5 hours.
## I think the advantage of having an automatic charging
## system built into the EV should be quite clear once you get out into the countryside.
Volt “automatic charging system” is just a way to say “hybrid” in more words.
We are building pure EV culture here, and not complying Big Oil Companies slowdown tactics. Charging stations will emerge for EV:s just like gas stations did for ICE. They will emerge in countryside too, don’t worry. If you can make money with it someone will do it. It has already started. All it needs is demand.
Hybrids itself are OK. They can help cut down pollution while those charging stations don’t yet exists, but Tesla is doing pure EV, not hybrid. Trying to make hybrid sound like EV is just evil.
BTW just noticed a funny sentence in article of Volt : www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/07/detroit-auto-show-its-here-gms-plug-in-hybrid-is-the-chevy-v/
“A technological breakthrough required to make this concept a reality is a large lithium-ion battery. This type of electric car, which the technical community calls an “EV range-extender,” would require a battery pack that weighs nearly 400 pounds (181 kg). Some experts predict that such a battery - or a similar battery - could be production-ready by 2010 to 2012.”
So Telsa apparently is three to five years ahead of its time
.
# It took the EV1 three weeks to make the trip which the volt could do in 3 or 4 days.
You’re ignoring that the Volt doesn’t exist. Press releases and reality are a long way apart. Today’s EVs could drive across the county, with a determined driver. Today’s gasoline cars could, too. The Volt is the *only* car that can’t, because it doesn’t exist.
Plug-in hybrids are extremely complicated for some non-intuitive reasons.
Parallel hybrids (e.g. Prius) have a small electric drivetrain to assist the gasoline drivetrain for extra power, and to recover kinetic energy when braking. They’re basically gasoline cars with regenerative brakes. But the electric drive system isn’t powerful enough to propel the car by itself, so any plug-in parallel hybrids will have mostly “blended” miles, like the CalCars Priuses. In other words, they’ll get good fuel economy, but they’ll always require gasoline.
A series hybrid has a full-power electric drivetrain, and an alternate-fuel engine to generate electricity. Ignoring the packaging and complexity of putting two full-size powerplants into a single car, a series hybrid will always have poorer fuel efficiency than a pure gasoline car because of the generation losses.
Up to the limits of its range, nothing will be more efficient than a battery electric. Beyond that range, nothing is likely to be more efficient than a parallel hybrid arrangement. A series hybrid like the vaporware Volt offers no advantage over a battery electric, except on long trips, where it will be less efficient than the alternatives.
If you see otherwise, and you think catering to people who drive across the country is a good market opportunity, then put your money where your mouth is and invest in the future.
Exellent work!
Now onto this Euro problem: since it cant be sold overseas due to various issues what would prevent a customer to buy one in the US and ship it over to Europe?
Looking beyond the Enviromental Factor; With the gas prices here it sure would be worth it.
Again, good work and I wish you the very best for the future!
Ronald, think about this a bit.
This is the real world and I don’t personally know anyone who has 3-4 days to waste driving cross country . That’s what planes are for. But if someone cares that little about their time, they can waste their time in any vehicle they want, could I suggest an RV?
Now tell me if a car allowed you to use ZERO, NADA gasoline for 95% of your driving needs and you rented a car once in a blue moon for a trip how is that a bad thing?
Also getting real again, most of my friends are married and have more than one car. So even if I had an EV that wasn’t good for an impromptu road trip and I wanted to waste a lot of time driving cross country, we would just take her car. Come to think of it most of my single friends have more than one vehicle as well.
That said, I really hope GM actually follows through and introduces the Volt. It is at least a step in the right direction even if it isn’t what the final solution needs to be.
Recharging stations at hotels is a good idea, but driving across country with a max distance of 200 miles a day would take 2 weeks. Not practical. You need an onboard charging system. True EV is a great concept but we need to transition with hybrids.
There is a small community of dedicated EV enthusists who would purchase a $30K-$$40K EV, but to really have an impact you need mass sales and most people want a more versitile car that they can drive farther than 200 miles. Therefore an onboard charging system is crucial.
I too can’t wait until orders are taken for the
Whitestar. I don’t dislike the roadster, but the snazz appeal is way too high for me. Can someone please tell me the approximate weight of the roadster? Thank you.
J Eggers
—
Editor’s note: Find weight and other Tesla Roadster specs here.
With respect to Ronald Greens last statement; Why would tesla want to engineer an ICE into their car when well over 90% of daily driving is well under 100 miles? That would make no sense on a mass market vechicle and it would drive up the cost. I belive the average American would “Rent” a car to drive across the US and back. Why would you want to put that many miles an wear on your own personal car either it be GAS or ELECTRIC? Think about it logically.
#greg Wentzel wrote on September 3rd, 2007 at 5:00 am
#[D]riving across country with a max distance of 200 miles a day would take 2 weeks.
Keep in mind that the stated range is 200 miles *per charge*, not per day. You could drive a few hours, charge a few hours, drive, etc.
It’s not yet known whether you can drive the Roadster a solid 200 miles at highway speeds. It may be that the single charge range is several hundred miles if you’re driving at, say, 25MPH, but only 150 miles at 70MPH. TM has yet to release these specs.
Too, I’d guess that only the rare bird might want to drive a Roadster across the States. The luggage space is limited and creature comforts aren’t high. Long road trips really aren’t what the car is about.
#[M]ost people want a more versitile car that they can drive farther than 200 miles.
Yes, range seems to be a sticking point for some potential EV buyers. I think this is more about perception than reality. You’ll find it argued often here and elsewhere that the 200+ mile trip is rare, and that most drivers go no more than 30-40 miles daily. It seems to me that, with a little education, smart consumers should come to realize that the EV’s benefits vastly outweigh the small cost of reduced range.
Here’s an idea for all you folks who want Tesla to make a Volt, so you can drive it across the country. Why don’t you head on over to your local Chevy dealer and tell them you want a Volt? Then when (or if) they sell you one, you can go ahead and drive it across the country. Cross the country with it as many times as you wish.
Meanwhile, those of us who want electric cars and have no desire whatsoever to drive them across the country will buy our electric cars from Tesla. There, your issues are resolved.
These constant arguments about range seem a bit pointless to me. It’s no secret that the Tesla’s range is limited and will be reduced by using all of the car’s performance. My guess is that a real world figure for mixed driving would be between 150 miles and 200 miles. I’m fairly confident that cruising at say 60 mph you would get the ‘over 200 miles’ claimed but most people don’t buy this kind of car to cruise it at 60 mph. If you really went crazy on empty roads you could probably drive the mileage down to 100 but that isn’t typical use for most people most of the time. In the real world very few of these cars will be owned by families that only have one car. Even single guys (or gals) who don’t own a second car often have access to another family member’s vehicle for long road trips. Of course there will be some people whose driving habits don’t fit this profile. If you make regular long road trips, here’s a tip: Don’t buy this car…..it’s no use to you. However, if like most people, you rarely drive more than 200 miles in a day and you have occasional or regular access to another car for those occasions when you have to carry luggage and drive long distances, this is a great car for you.
# Andrew Kelsey wrote on September 5th, 2007 at 5:27 am
## Of course there will be some people whose driving habits don’t fit this profile.
## If you make regular long road trips, here’s a tip: Don’t buy this car…..it’s no use to you.
Depends of the “long road trip”. I would have need for range of 700km for approx twice a week, so I can’t use Roadster now, but theres a small catch here. *IF* there were be any charging stations (like two of those Hyatt hotels) in my way I _would_ be able to do that trip. 200+miles equals roughly 320 km so I would need two. Two chargings would take seven hours (except that I wouldn’t need full charge from one of those) and driving would take another seven hours, so it would take all day to get where I’m going but it would also mean that I _could_ do that and I would do that if it were possible. It would _still_ be more fun than taking a train (very boring) or renting an ICE (never fun) or fly (boring).
Of course batteries will get better, charging times shorter and rangers bigger. And it would not take very long for this to happen. If Altairnano batteries weren’t so expensive and they could deliver bigger volumes we could have ten minute charging *now*. Or at least much shorter charging than 3.5 hours.
All it needs is to get supporting network of charging stations just like ICE -cars have now. Tesla is a pioneer and even that it is only one and not even very big company and haven’t yet delivered any cars it _still_ has spawned a few charging stations. Imagine when there is thousands or tens of thousands of Tesla EV:s around. I bet Hyatt wouldn’t be the only one to have charging stations then.
Too bad that Tesla Roadster isn’t even available here.
Timo, the way things are going it looks to me as though most major manufacturers are going to go the safer, serial hybrid route. If that happens there would be no particular need for recharging stations and, more importantly, no likelihood of a profit from running them. Most serial hybrids would only recharge at home, or maybe the office, and allow the ic engine to take care of longer trips. EVs are going to be in such a minority for the next few years that nobody could commercially offer recharging. Of course Hyatt have an interest in attracting wealthy Californians to their hotels and getting some green cred at the same time but not many companies will bother with that. I think the way it’s going to go is that many low-mileage owners of serial hybrids will find they hardly ever use their gasoline engines and some of those people will ask manufacturers for a cheaper, EV-only option. That should help with the inevitable transition to a fully EV economy but I still don’t think there will be much need for recharging away from home. The only way I could see this being different is if some form of short-range battery with very fast charging becomes a reality, along the lines of the Altairnano/Phoenix deal. If that technology wins out then charging while on the road would have to become the norm. Personally I think the longer range/charge at home battery will win out in the end but that’s just my two cents. Who knows?
When Tesla first announced the Roadster to the public (in 2006) there was a large amount of parallel excitement.
Companies like Nanosolar and Eestor were making the new, and it sounded like 2007 was going to be the breakout year for a green-tech explosion.
Well, Tesla isn’t the only one who seems to be “missing their target dates”. Note this article about solar companies:
venturebeat.com/2007/06/13/silicon-valleys-new-solar-cell-companies-slipping-on-delivery-dates/
In case anyone is curious about differences between CEO and President roles in a company, here is an interesting article:
answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=77749
For anyone going back and reading this old blog, Tesla finally announced a replacement CEO here:
www.teslamotors.com/media/press_room.php?id=746
i have to read all these page i found u r quit decent in language the use of words make this artical quit diffrent so keep going on