Interesting, congratulations on your recent expansion “across the pond”!

Does this alter any of the plans or schedule for White Star production in the US?

Hi was just wondering if Tesla could confirm or deny that the inital European Tesla Roadsters will not be offered in right hand drive form to the UK market.?

Initial Roadsters in the UK will be left hand drive -ed. 

“This is evidenced in part by high gas prices (due to gas taxes)…”

Marketing Tesla in Europe? Better swap “gas” for “petrol”.

Here in Oz, a car on ‘gas” is one running LPG. Perhaps “fuel tax” is a more sensible term, with the Tesla Roadster hopefully attracting a fuel tax = €0

Petrol, Diesel, LPG and Electric…nice to have options

I have to admit, my first reaction is “keep your eye on the ball.”

I can inform you that cars in Denmark are heavily taxed. There is a purchase tax buying a new car of 105 % for the first ~15.000 $ You pay 180 % taxes for the amount exceeding this limit.

_Electric does not have a tax like that._

Dong Energy and Project Better Place have decided to launch their electric cars in Denmark. Should be good for the infrastructure…

More than 20% of electricity comes from windmills. During a windy night we produce so much electricity that we have to sell it to our neighbors for very little money. Smarter to recharge the cars…

in 2009 there will be a UN climate conference in Copenhagen.

Denmark is a small and rich country, perfect for testing out a new market.

congratulations

What about availability in Canada? Aren’t the standards pretty much the same as in the US?

From the online magazine “Canadian Driver”: “The Government of Canada has proposed an amendment to the Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations that will harmonize the Canadian bumper standard for passenger cars with similar safety standards from the U.S. and Europe.” www.canadiandriver.com/thenews/2008/04/02/canada-to-harmonize-bumper-standard-with-us-europe.htm

That shoul make it even easier…

Excellent move. How compatible is the US vehicle to standards in various European nations? Obviously many nations use 220V / 50 cycle power, so the converters would be different, but are there any other regulatory hurdles?

Excellent move, indeed.
I just still consider an electric car for 100k€ way too expensive. I mean, for an average european. Average european does not need 4sec acceleration and carbon fiber body, they need an affordable electric car.
It feels sad to me that this world-saving technology is spreading so slowly. I wish that you, or whoever else would make affordable EVs, so that most people really would be able to get them, and that would really change the world.
I know, you had to start somewhere. Maybe you just wanted to show the world that such a great car can be electricity powered, and you are doing this job very well. But I really hope that there will be some affordable electric car on the market soon.
Maybe Th!nk is the way to go…

Hmm.. 99.000 EUR without taxes seems a bit too much considering a fully loaded US version is 105.000 USD = aprox 67.000 EUR and also “sizable portion of our car parts and labor are paid in Euros or Pounds”. Can you give us some insight on this price increase ? Is this price higher to support initial investments in EU, and if this is the case can you tell us if the price will be reduced after the investments are covered and in how much time do you expect this to happen ?

Thanks,
George

” Obviously many nations use 220V / 50 cycle power, so the converters would be different, ”

Tesla licensed the Reductive Charging technology from AC Propulstion. Reductive charging uses the circuitry of the motor inverter to regulate and adjust the voltage for charging, and it can run on a range of voltages from 100 up to 250 volts or so, and a range of frequencies including 60 Hz and 50 Hz. Theoretically, it could even run on DC, but finding 220 volt DC is really rare! So, except for the plugs, no modification is needed for European power.

The Roadster doesn’t need a separate charge controller, and that saves a bit of cash.

The Reductive charger can also act as a “grid tie” inverter, feeding power from the batteries back to the grid, though Tesla Motors did not implement that function in the Roadster - standards for V2G have not been set yet. . It is possible some future Tesla model could even act as a portable emergency AC power supply!

This is all fine and dandy but what about actualy delivering already payed cars to costumers?

It’s 10th April, almost a month after “Tesla Motors Begins Regular Production of 2008 Tesla Roadster” and Martin Eberhard is still waiting for his car.
I’d say his one should be the one you made three weeks ago or is it?

Excellent news!

You have GOT to get this car on Top Gear

Congrats to your decision to sell the car also in Europe. I believe it will have a good chance to be successful. May I suggest to clarify the price details as soon as possible regarding the VAT as this can have alter the price tag significantly. Good luck anyway!

So let me see if I have this right.

The Roadster will be buit in the UK then shipped to the US (west coast) where the battery and finshing touches will be installed/completed

Then it will re-cross the US and Atlantic to Europe where it will be sold.

No wonder it will cost the Europeans so much more.

Peter J Hedge
Victoria, BC

Well, congratulations to Europe now you can share the in the production run ( 000,000,001 served)

Well, I don’t mean to be nasty, it just seems a bit premature. Otoh, maybe it’s a sign that the ramp-up is succeeding!!

Nubo, as the wise man said, even the longest journey begins with a single step.

All of this Tesla stuff dazzles me to the point that I wish for one. HOWEVER The price undazzles me, and I would have to wait for the price to come down. Too bad we couldn’t revive Henry Ford. He knew how to build cheap cars!

Like many others who have followed Tesla’s progress for some time I’m delighted to see that you’re going to make the car available in Europe. However, like many above I am annoyed that you’re taking the opportunity to raise prices by about 50%. I know you have a huge investment to recoup and maybe your potential buyers can afford to help you do this but, even if I had the money, which I don’t, it would really rankle to be paying so much more than American buyers. Grey import looks like being the way to go. There’s so much to save that it will be worth taking the trouble. As RHD isn’t available anyway, conversion to UK standards shouldn’t be a major obstacle.

Peter Hedge queried whether the cars would really be crossing the Atlantic twice. I’m sure it would make much more sense to send the batteries to Lotus and I’d be really surprised if that isn’t what you intend, but you have to sell some at the inflated price first!

“Too bad we couldn’t revive Henry Ford. He knew how to build cheap cars!”

Yes, yes he did…by putting internal combustion engines in them.

About the “crossing the Atlantic twice” thing, at www.teslamotorsclub.com/news-articles-events/1077-exporting-including-tesla-battery-news.html Darryl Siry indicates that this won’t happen. There will be ESS manufacturing facilities both in the US and somewhere in Europe, which will reduce the capital cost by shortening the time between cell purchase and vehicle delivery.

Also, concerning price I’m not sure what the fuss is about. All high-end sports cars are way more expensive in Europe…so what? If you compared the cost to purchase and register a high performance ICE roadster in both places, I think you’d find a similar disparity. Simply comparing the transatlantic prices doesn’t really mean anything, and certainly isn’t (and shouldn’t be) the basis for Tesla’s pricing choices. Their pricing is based on competing in each market effectively. Viewed from this perspective, it looks like the Roadster is very competitively priced in Europe, particularly in those countries with large tax benefits for EVs. Put another way, consider what cars you could get in the US (including taxes) for the price-after-taxes of the Roadster…and then consider the same question in a European country. Note that if Jacob’s numbers for Denmark taxes are right then a normal ICE car that costs €50,000 will cost €128,750 after tax, probably in the ballpark of the Roadster’s after-tax price. So it sounds to me like the Roadster is a lot more attractive relative to the competition there than here. That doesn’t even begin to consider the difference in ICE operating costs in the two markets. Also note that the price of the US Roadster will be higher for 2009 as well.

On the other hand, the few people who have mentioned grey market importing may be on to something. What are the costs associated with that? Does one have to pay duty of some kind, and how much? Of course the shipping has its own costs as well. Considering the big price disparities in other cars, you’d think we would have heard of this going on a lot if it didn’t cost much to do. I’m guessing it won’t be a big issue, but I don’t know much about it.

Mentioned in a dutch car magazine: www.autoweek.nl/nieuws.php?id=8685

Dpes anyone else find it strange that they announced production start and a month later have not produced a single vehicle? Was the press release premature or are there other unknown problems on the assembly line? My understanding was they would be doing at least 1 a week at the start and ramp up from there.

After being critisized concerning the european Tesla pricing the ed. asked: “Have you looked at US prices for Porsches in comparison to Euro prices?”. Yes, we did. The standard Porsche 911 Carrera is around 46 % more expensive in Germany than in the US. The Tesla will be 77% more expensive. Why don’t you give them a call to ask them how they did it?

This is great news! I would recommend the Swiss market as a favorable european test market since Switzerland is a very rich country, and with four different official national languages (among them are Italian, French and German), it represents at least as many different european consumer mentalities in one small country. The Geneva auto show, an internationally renowend auto show taking place in the French speaking part of Switzerland, would be an ideal venue to introduce and promote the Tesla Roadster. The annual show takes place in March and attracts visitors from all over Europe.

Additional advantages of the Swiss test market are the low sales tax of only 7,6 % and the many tax exemptions for low emmission vehicles.

(Another interesting idea would be to present the Tesla Roadster at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology ETH in Zurich which is one of the world’s leading technical universities.)

A great decision Tesla, especially considering the dollar rates and how we are all screaming for the Tesla over here !!
Only 800 in the first year in the US??!! You will sell 5,000 in Europe, no problem at all…..
Price-wise now though, you have just locked horns with the bigboys in the highend performance roadster market….JAG XKR, 911, SLKAMG, V8VANTAGE….
However performance-wise, tax-wise, desireability-wise and Co2 emissions-wise, you have no competitors at all and so it’s understandable to put on a premium price while you have a unique and premium product….I suppose we were all dreaming of a 70.000 Euro fully loaded price tag when we saw $105.000 in the USA…(OANDA.com - 12th April ‘08 USD$105,000 = 66,486.4 Euro)

Tesla would then also only be up against the BMW330, SLK, 350Z, S2000, BOXTER and S4 lot….

hang on a minute…wouldn’t that mean that EVERYONE would buy a Tesla…. )

This may be a year too late for the UK market. The Lightening GT which is just about to launch looks a better spec on paper and with nansafe power source can recharge to full capacity in 10 minutes with 250 mile range and its right hand drive. Much as I like the Tesla its just been too long coming and other technologies are catching up very fast. With a 90000 price tag I’m heading for a Lightening.

GREAT NEWS - I’m Tesla fan from day one! I’m from Portugal and looking forward to place my order!! I want a test drive!

Here in Norway, the only added tax is a refundable (when the car is condemned) of about $150.

I was hoping to get one, but the 60% rice on the price tag was way to stiff for me to handle. If you could have matched the US price, I’ll guess you could have sold 3-500 cars a year here. Now I guess you’ll do around 100.

# Ian wrote on April 12th, 2008 at 6:05 am

# The Lightening GT which is just about to launch looks
# a better spec on paper and with nansafe power source can
# recharge to full capacity in 10 minutes with 250 mile range

Is there anywhere online, where I can learn how this feat is accomplished — especially whether early customers will be able to do it immediately, or how long they will have to wait before suitable fast-charge facilities are available?

Ian: The Lightning is nothing more than a Mustang with a new fiberglass skin. It is by no means in the same catagory as an exotic sports car. If i read their promo right that price is with the original Mustang engine, and the PML Flightlink electric version is much more expensive. Go buy your over-priced Mustang, it is no competition to Tesla. Lightnings are not production, they are a convesion done only after the order is received.

Hmmm…seems like a lot of apples/oranges comparisons going on about the pricing of the special edition Roadster announcement. Maybe I’ll do a blog on it. For now - here is the short version:

This is a special edition car for Europeans who want to be the first to own a very unique and exclusive car. The pricing is for the special edition of 250 cars for 2009. Pricing for the car when we do a full, higher volume run in Europe later on is not yet declared. So I think all comparisons are apples to oranges, but for those who still want to do the math and compare US and Euro pricing, you should consider the following:

99K Euro is for a fully loaded car, so don’t compare it to US 98K Dollars, which is the 2008 US base price. Similarly, 99K Euro is for a 2009 car, not a 2008 car. We estimate the base price of the 2009 Tesla Roadster in the US to be 109K USD. Fully loaded with all factory options the 2009 Tesla Roadster will be closer to $120K USD. You might ask why the price of the Tesla Roadster is going up for 2009 and the reasons are similar to the reasons we are accelerating our European sales plans - the cost basis of our car is going up because much of it is in Euros and Pounds.

Pricing between US cars and European sports cars is not simply a matter of multiplying the exchange rate by the US price. A variety of factors affect pricing strategy between countries. The most relevant comparison is to use a benchmark that you can compare in each country. We often use the Porsche 911 Carrera S as a benchmark (that is not to say we try to match the the price, but it is a good point of comparison for a variety of reasons mostly related to the type of customer who purchases it)

If you are going to compare the Euro price including VAT, consider the sales tax and other taxes in the US. In California it is 8.5% and then you pay a vehicle licensing fee but I am not sure what that is off the top of my head. You also generally pay a gas guzzler tax for a high end sports car which obviously doesn’t apply to the Roadster.

Finally, pricing a special edition car must take into account all of these things but ultimately it is a matter of supply and demand. The Roadster will always be an exclusive and relatively expensive proposition. We have plans for offering cars at lower price points and at higher volume levels but those cars won’t be on the market for another few years yet.

Re: It’s a start

Okay so maybe it won’t be a rival to the Roadster but I do believe my city’s decision to allow electric cars is a step in the right direction.

My only concern (apart from whether or not the URL link below will work) is that with a top speed of 40 kph (25 mph), they will create major congestion especially when the inevitable happens and some driver decides to take to the highway.

An interesting note is that the vehicles do not need to be “crash tested” or have air bags. For that reason alone I think I will wait a while before trading in my Volvo.

Peter J Hedge
Victoria, BC

digital.timescolonist.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

PS Thanks Darryl for the costing clarification. It’s much better to have an explanation than trying to read beween the lines.

Darryl, whichever way you slice it a higher price equals lower sales. If I were your marketing or sales department I would pay a lot of attention to the Norwegian guy writing above who was very interested at the US price but isn’t going to be a customer at the ’special edition’ price. I guess you’re just using the ’special edition’ to test the water and you’ll set the real price according to the reaction you get. At current production rates you might as well price them at half a milion!

Talking of which, is there any news of the Founder’s Edition car P2 that is due to be delivered to your founder?

Andrew - you have to look at volume relative to your production capacity and your gross margins. In the US we could probably sell 10,000 roadsters at $50,000 but we can’t make that many and we would lose a bundle on every one. So the ultimate goal is not simply unit sales. As a startup you also have to look hard at fixed cost absorption since your overhead is very large relative to your sales at the early stages of growth. We are setting prices to build a healthy and successful business balancing all of these considerations. If you read my previous post, a fully loaded 2009 car in the US will be about $120,000. I don’t think there will be a very large incentive for gray market imports. Regarding Martin’s car, we’ll let him now as soon as it’s ready for delivery and he can let you know if he wants. We are taking great car with the early cars to ensure quality. - Darryl

I am so glad to hear! The Roadster is my ideal car, and I knew that I wanted one, so much that I was investigating the possibility of doing private import from the US. I promised myself to never again spend any big money on a car with the antique combustion engine. I know where to spend it.. This is great news. /Jens, Sweden.

Regarding grey market imports of Teslas, you might want to check the warranty. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Teslas sold in the US can only get warranty service in the US. While you could get a grey market ICE car repaired anywhere, where would you take a Tesla if something goes wrong, other than a Tesla service center? And as much as I’d like to believe that Teslas will be 100% reliable, realistically, they are a brand new technology and there are almost certain to be glitches. Do you want to have to ship your car back to the US to get a firmware upgrade to fix a bug that keeps your car from charging on even numbered Tuesdays?

Keith

It’s a start! Even when I just see it as a kind of refinance of the exploding costs. Even Airbus got that problem nowadays. A worst case scenario with continuously falling US$ might just put the whole production to Europe. Cheers!

Andrew Kelsey, you say “I don’t know the details either but it’s obvious that the bigger the price disparity from the US to Europe the bigger the incentive is to do this.”

Sure, of course. But my point was that this is only true in a specific range of price differences…between infinity and the total cost of the importation. If the price difference between the two markets is small enough (or the costs/taxes on importing large enough), then the costs of importation will make the imports more expensive than the local offerings and there will be zero incentive to import. And we have to include everything in that calculation…not only the shipping and taxes, but also what the lack of warranty is worth, additional risk and the “trouble” involved to the buyer, and a fair-market profit for the importer. If all these costs together add up to ~$35,000 or more, there’s no incentive for grey market Roadsters. If the cost is less than that, I agree, the lower it is the more grey-market Roadsters we should expect.

Obviously from Darryl’s post this is a possibility that has already been considered at Tesla. Some folks act like they think Tesla never considered it when setting the pricing…

Yikes:

www.nytimes.com/2008/04/15/technology/15tesla.html

Interesting to read all these postings. I am living in Germany and well, its great to see that that there is finally a full electric vehicle with more performance than a hairdryer available, however like most people in Germany, I don’t have that much cash lying around. Its a far cry from replacing existing technology, especially from price and availability point of view, but at least its a start, and now, if asked about my dream car, the Tesla roadster is now top of my list… now if I could only win the lotto!

::Show me a third-of-a-megawatt home hookup, and I’ll consider 10-minute charging realistic.

A stationary bank of capacitors, flywheels or high-power batteries installed at home, there you go. Yes its going to cost extra.

Thanks Ben for that illuminating link. It answers a lot of whitestar-type questions

I know “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery”. . . but this is taking it a bit too far.

As you so aptly put it: “Yikes!”

Peter J Hedge
Victoria, BC

Jason, it seems like no matter what the story is you’re always going to be around to whine and moan about it using completely false information.

So, let’s see…when did Fisker opt for a range extender? You say it was “long before Tesla did” but I see nothing at all to support that; not only had Tesla announced its RE intentions prior to the Karma unveiling, but according to this suit it was after Fisker had done design work for Tesla on an RE vehicle. Which brings me to “Fisker has a vehicle with appeal to a much larger chunk of the marketplace.” No, it doesn’t. It has no vehicle at all. We haven’t even seen a working prototype yet (last I heard they expected to have the first running version in late 2008…so I guess they are planning to go from mule to production in just one year?), and they just got their first serious round of funding 3 months ago. And even if they did have, it’s supposed to be $80,000 for a car with specs that sound a lot like Whitestar…how does that appeal to more of the market? Even if it comes out on time, it will be after Whitestar’s details and price are out and a waiting list is up; how many folks do you think are going to want to spend 50% more for the first effort of a company with no EV experience just to get it a few months before Whitestar? Maybe they’ll be lining up to get in on the solar-on-the-car-roof gimmick. Yeah.

But all that is just gearing up for the main whine of your post, this business of “It is sad when a company has to resort to litigation to compete in the marketplace.” What a bunch of fish. I think it’s sad when a company has to resort to piracy to produce a product. Sure, if Tesla was just some patent-pusher shop that never built anything, I could understand a bit of bemoaning their litigiousness. But they aren’t; they’re a real company with real products who paid a design firm nearly a million bucks to work on a car for them, and then watched that firm take the money and take the design back home to build a competing product. Apparently along with some parts of the design which they didn’t even produce. You really think you wouldn’t sue someone who took your million for contract work and then used the product of that work in competition with you? You think GM wouldn’t be all over a firm that did this? Fisker is not “competing in the marketplace”…it’s cheating in the marketplace. Which is what litigation is for.

That said, I do hope that a reasonable settlement can be made which includes the licensing of Tesla’s IP; after all, two luxury plugins are better than one.

Kert, I didn’t say “tell me how a third-of-a-megawatt home hookup could theoretically be built.” I said, “show me [one].” Then we can start talking about how it costs half as much as the car and doesn’t do anything worthwhile. After all, it’s at your house…so you can charge up in 10 minutes if you’re already home, but since you’re back home it’s very likely that you’re going to be there for a few hours anyhow. Sure, maybe a few people go out on sales drives all morning, come home for lunch, and then head back out….but for the driving patterns of the other 99% of us, this doesn’t help. It would help if these fast chargers were all over the place, but then you’re back to needing the full wattage from the grid, unless you want to only offer one ten-minute charge every few hours. Which is hard to visualize in a gas-station setting. Of course it also wouldn’t be economically viable (since more than 95% of people would be charging at home anyway) but that’s a different story.

So, like I said, fast-charging isn’t here. Show me a real, commercial (no, John Wayland’s lead-acid dragster dump charger doesn’t count either) effort at a complete fast charging system (cars and chargers) and I’ll change my mind. Until then, companies like Lightning and Phoenix who claim these incredible recharge times are being very deceitful.

How many Roadsters are they making each since go live?

Dear Mr. Siry, these are just great news that coincide with plans of our company to start cooperation with Tesla Motors in Europe. The first moment we learnt about the Tesla Roadster we wanted to go in for this. Like Tesla team we share your opinion that driving is exhilarating and driving an electric car gives thrilling sensations and much enjoyment to its owner, not a mere necessity of moving from point A to B. It was our old cherished dream to deal with premium quality car sales and now that Tesla has announced its plans to expand to Europe we feel even more enthusiastic about it. We hope our business experience and thorough knowledge of the market will be useful to your company. We are interested in cooperation with Tesla Motors and will be glad to start negotiations with you. Thanks and really very sincere congratulations!

Maybe if you had not waited so long to unveil the Whitestar, Fisker could not have stolen it from you and unveiled it first Please tell me that the article was wrong in saying that Elon was re-designing it himself rather than a new professional designer.

Kevin, I couldn’t agree more. I’m sure he’s exaggerating, and there are real pros working on the design with him overseeing them…but still, the quote looks bad. And it’s in the NYT, so there’s going to be some folks reading it.

Just checked the prizetag of the cheapest Porsche Boxster in Denmark incl. VAT = just below 125.000 Euro. Since the VAT on the Tesla would be 25% that also costs just below 125.000 Euro. Now, if you drive approx. 20.000 km/year (12.500 miles), keeping the Boxster running incl. VAT sums up to 5.000 Euro. One Giga-Watt costs about 70 Euro in Denmark, it should be interesting to get the running costs calculated on the Tesla Darryl?
Oh, and the Boxster uses 6 sec. for the 0 to 60 mph.

Sorry, but I have to write this. I read somewhere on your website, that a gallon of gas costs about 3$. Just to compare gasprizes - in Denmark we pay roughly 8,5$ per gallon incl. VAT for unleaded 92 octane gasolin. No wonder why Tesla can see the economical benefits for an EV in Europe.

Jason, somehow the articles you cite rarely say what you claim. Martin’s early blog did not dismiss the Volt concept at all, but only noted that batteries will need massively higher cycle lives for REEV’s to work. Also, neither of those articles mentions Fisker at all.

But this aspect of the discussion (who was first to say they intended to build an REEV) is actually totally irrelevant. After all, neither Fisker nor Tesla had IP related specifically to REEV technology. The design of the coachwork is mostly (if not completely…your suggestion that battery placement could have made the car oddly proportioned is utter hogwash, as the battery can go wherever they want) independent of the drivetrain characteristics. And the electric drivetrain is the same whether a car is a BEV or REEV. So really, any IP Fisker misappropriated would have been BEV technology (or data, let’s not forget the value of the proprietary testing and concept validation Tesla performed) that also applies to an REEV. And if they were giving Tesla a hobbled version of the Karma design and saving the best work from Tesla’s dime for themselves then that’s bad faith regardless of what’s under the hood of either vehicle…it’s a contract for coachwork, not a whole car.

So, try to make the whole discussion about a murky timeline if you want, but that detail doesn’t even matter to any of the material points of the case. Bottom line is that if Tesla has a Fisker Whitestar design that looks like a slightly uglier Karma and a contract that was even halfway thoughtfully written, there’s a pretty solid cause of action there. If they can come up with specific (and helpful) proprietary information they gave Fisker they have another. Any documentation they could produce that showed their REEV plans predating the Karma would just be icing on the cake. From the sound of the filing, they intend to do all that…but of course they always promise the moon in these initial complaints. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

Mr. Siry - I can appreciate that an over-the-pond operation will incur some startup costs, but +59% ? Just for reference - it cost me $2,500 to get my [used] Pathfinder from Boston to Zurich in 1999 (door to door). At these prices let me buy a Roadster in the US and arrange shipping myself.

Also, as a benchmark, diesel here is $7.44 a gallon. For ~100K USD I am interested; at 160K (plus 7.6% VAT) it’s a bit steep. But please do let us know when you get to Switzerland.

regards

P

Peter, the thought of driving a Roadster through the Swiss Alps is highly intoxicating! I’ve been there on ski trips three times now, and hope to go back again when (if) the dollar regains some worth. You have a beautiful country! With a Tesla, you’ll even be allowed to drive in Zermatt, where no gas burners are allowed. I bet those mountains will really klll the battery range though.

Peter Greis, take a look at the comments above to see how your comparison isn’t quite right. You are probably comparing the 2008 US base price to the 2009 fully-loaded (and special edition) EU price. If you compare the fully-loaded estimated 2009 US price, you’ll see the difference is about 30%, not 60%. Still a significant increase, but with the currency rates the way they are few goods do keep parity across the Atlantic. In particular this difference is a lot less than that of many other sports cars.

Jason–

Did you consider putting 1/2 the batteries in the back of the vehicle, then putting another 1/2 somewhere like the engine compartment in the front of the vehicle? I’d say that, although you might have two (separate) fluid reservoirs for coolant (same overall volume of coolant required, eh?), the overall weight would only increase by the weight of an additional pump. Yes, you would have to string a wire down the middle to connect the two . . . (or would you? How about all-wheel drive? For those of us in areas of the country where there is still snow on the ground, something like a 4 x 4 White Star could absolutely kill the Subaru market. I know, I know . . . this would require another engine in the front (another 100 lbs of weight or so), and probably other items I am unaware of . . . .

On another note, I think Hunter has a point. I thought the point of these Blogs was to toss out constructive (or wacky) ideas on a subject we all seem to care about. If one’s only comments are always negative, and of a personal nature, it starts to detract from the conversation.

From now on, let’s try to stay on topic, shall we?

It is called the moment of inertia. The farther a mass is from the axis of rotation, the more work it takes to rotate the object. A vehicle with the mass centered, such as a mid-engine or mid-battery car, will rotate easier, and tend to oversteer, which may be tolerated somewhat in a sports car. Placing the mass of the batteries farther from the center will make the car understeer, which is a much more appropriate handling characteristic for a sedan than oversteer. I believe this is quite the opposite of what was previously described here.

The physics of autos is fascinating, but how does this all fit into selling electric Roadsters in Europe?

I hope we get to see some nice photos of the trip to Monaco.

Jæja, þá er bara að skella sér á einn. Spurning um að opna umboð!!!

Gentlemen–

Thank you; however, please note that I did not say “to the very front and very back,” and do not think that notion lends charity to my post.

Perhaps I should clarify: place a battery pack in the front and another one in the back, but place both of them as near to the center of mass as possible. Say, like, in front of the firewall and behind/under the back seat. Obviously, this represents a compromise from the purest possible solution: a homogeneous sphere of batteries located exactly at the center of mass in all three axes; but how much can we compromise from perfection to make a vehicle look “right” and drive “right?” Clearly, a full engineering analysis is required before putting any vehicle on the road, and that analysis would include a test to see whether this weight distribution leads to any undesireable effects. I must remind everyone, however, that the comparison here is existing ICE vehicles that in some cases achieve perfect 50-50 weight distribution, but not by placing the combustion engine in the center of a car in the shape of a perfect sphere!

Again, the intended point of this comment was to address the assertion that a pure BEV sedan would have to look somehow “odd.” I reject this notion on its face, and simply offer one of which must be numerous suggestions to counter that notion.

And why address the issue of whether or not our European friends (and family members) would want a pure BEV versus a hybrid of any sort? I am not qualified to comment (I speak only for myself in saying I do not wish to drive a hybrid of any sort on principle alone), but I suspect that some of our kind European Blog participants might want to weigh-in on the subject.

GV,

As a point of reference, name a vehicle that has the styling that you would want to see for the Whitestar.

Hallo Tesla´s Team,
ich hoffe Ihr bietet auch bald ein ähnliches Europäisches alternativ model in Deutschland an. Ich bin sehr an Tesla interessiert. Es war nicht nur ein Genie sonder das Auto ist auch genial. Der stolze preis von umgerecht 63.000,-€ ist aber dennoch eine spaßbremse.

ich hoffe sehr auf ein verkauf hierzulande.

Ich will gerne ein kaufen

weiter so!

#
Jason M. Hendler wrote on April 19th, 2008 at 11:06 am

GV,

As a point of reference, name a vehicle that has the styling that you would want to see for the Whitestar.

Easy, any BMW 5 series…

I would like to see something like the 99 VW Passat (or the wagon, for that matter). It had a very “glassy” look on the top half of the car, and used more circular lines–a nice balance between fluid and angular. I was in Europe then and, amongst the well-to-do, that was a hot ticket item.

Regarding the Fisker vs. Volt vs. pure BEV: there may be a weight/balance trade-off that favors the hybrids over the short-term, but I would venture a guess that it would be in the region of indifference for many consumers–especially considering the HUGE implications. What would you rather drive: a vehicle with very few moving parts, or one with basically two engines? It seems like there is a groundswell of support for hybrids, but I am not sure I could convince myself to make that compromise.

GV,

OK, so you think the Fisker Karma is ugly, but would hope to see the Ford Focus body on the Whitestar instead ….

Here it is. Don’t expect anything professional though, since I was just made a short sketch of what came to my mind. Besides that, things like mass distribution or room requirements for the battery weren’t considered.
In the light of the lawsuit, I took the size and shape of the Fisker Karma as a rough base model.
‘
img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=whitescribldc9.jpg
‘
Because of the poor quality of the sketch, the dimensions are of course not apparent. I would reduce the size of the front part of the car while making the trunk part a little longer in comparison to the Karma.
I would use a modified, broader, less sporty-agressive looking variant of the Roadster trunk for the Whitestar, removing the small spoiler, as seen in the picture.
I couldn’t come up with a new headlight design, so I just drew those of the Roadster. I would, however, definately use another design for the Whitestar (I’m just too lazy to come up with one right now), to make the car more different from the other. The engine hood should roughly resemble to perhaps a new BMW, although with a slight gradient, and a smooth transition to the rather flat front window.
Although solar panels on the roof are pretty cool, we’ve all heard that the money is better spent in ‘regular’ ones on housetops; so I would integrate a large ‘panorama’ front window instead.

Robert;
I understood your German, but won’t attempt to answer that way.

The first EU Roadsters are special, with everything.

Regular Roadsters will be less, probably about US price + 20% (my guess).

GV,

I have to say that is a pretty good sketch. And if that is a Limosine there then yes a sedan here is a limosine there. Here in the US a Limosine is a much longer car that usually seats 6-10 + people. Length is usually about 15-30 feet or 5-10 meters as you say over there Usually used for special occassions like weddings, large business meetings, formal dances and large parties. Funny how the same cars have different names throughout the world.

GV–

Not bad!!! Not what I had in mind originally–then again, I can’t draw.

I agree with Hunter, the hatchback makes it stand out. Though I did not like the first version, the redesigned BMW 6 might serve as a model for comparison.

www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/6series/coupe/2007/visualizer.html

Nice sketch, GV. I would seriously consider driving an EV that looked like your picture.

Hummm, looks a lot like a Chevy Volt: gm-volt.com/2008/04/20/gm-ceo-chevy-volt-2010-deadline-down-to-the-wire-but-so-far-so-good/

Are we ever going to see a P2 ? It has been “in production” for over a month now. Do you have an expected completion date ? How quickly will the ramp up to P3 begin ? Are you actually working on more than 1 car at a time yet ? PLEASE post something we are all looking forward to the good news

Sure GV. TM doesnt seem to be suppling us with any art work so why not you !!! You seem pretty good at it I am thinking the size of a BMW 545 with a convertible hardtop like the VW Eos and a little bit of extraodiinary styling from the Karma but not over the top like the Karma is but more in line with what you drew based off the Roadster. LOL does that make it clear as mud hehehehehe. Also I liked all of Hunters changes except I am not really keen on the hatchback idea. Not opposed to it just not my favorite thing. Maybe the lines of a hatchback but not actually being one. Kinda like a Lexus sedan. How is that for a starting point ?

Given that we’re in the lull between P1 and P2, this blog about selling cars in Europe is getting rather stale. High time for some news regarding actual production status. I hope Europe gets all the roadsters they can, but I can’t wait to see an “ordinary” customer get their keys.

Jason,

GV’s comment is still there in its entireity on April 20th.

I am not sure if all you guys folow oil closely but, things are getting REALLY ugly!!!! Two more pipelines were sabotaged in Nigeria along with the attack on the Japanese oil tanker & they are now hinting at possible $5 a gallon gas. NOW is the time that these cars NEED to be hitting the roads & getting major publicity to show people that our current situation is NOT hopeless & there IS a way out of this mess.
Soooo, I have tried to be patient but,

WHERE IS P2???????? It’s been a month!!!!!

Isn’t “sedan” in the US the same as “saloon” elsewhere? Here in the States, of course, “saloon” conjures images of places you shouldn’t be and things you shouldn’t do before getting in the car to drive home…

Where is there a comparative global taxonomy of auto types?

OK - I will accept the counter arguments to my first statement. Then let me rephrase - when can order a “not fully loaded” Roadster in Europe ? (Perhaps waiting would be better - the dollar might be even cheaper….)

Well, I’ve taken myself some time I basically don’t have and gave it a try.
It is a more serious attempt for a concept, since I spent a little more time to come op with a different design, so the car wouldn’t look just like a bloated roadster, but still resemble to the roadster’s styling.
_____________
As requested by Kevin, I came up with a car with hardtop. I don’t know if I it looks Karma-esque, but given that I don’t like the Karma’s styling, I probably failed with that
_____________
img134.imageshack.us/img134/7902/whitescribjk1.jpg

_____________

I tried to come up with a stylish, yet not too extravagant exterior design. I don’t know which price range the Whitestar is aimed at, however I had in mind a car which looks expensive yet still affordable… like a fully loaded BMW with a strong engine, for example.

I used taillights which resemble close to those of the roadster, since I think that the taillights and the whole trunk area are the most characteristic thing about Tesla’s car.
I am not happy about the way the engine hood looks, I actually had in mind some soft curves, while it looks pretty wavy on the picture. I guess next time I’ll have to make a clay model, lol.
I haven’t spent too much time thinking about the front lights, since I feel it’s difficult to come up with something fitting when you actually don’t know the exact angle of the front, so I just picked the first idea I had. I believe that I’ve seen a similar design on some cars on the road, but I can’t tell for sure - I really haven’t been too interested about car designs in the past.
_____________

For those of you who like it coloured, I added a (very) sloppy paintjob.
The result can be seen here:

img254.imageshack.us/img254/9995/whitescribl2ks3.jpg

Two questions:
1) Will you after -sale service/pick-up cars for service for cars running in Norway
2) Will you service cars imported from the US in the same way (as cars sold directly in Europe/Norway)?

Hunter,

That begs the question if that “one Gallon” can deliver a “enough power to travel 450 miles” then why not put a 5 gallon tank on the same car and travel all day !!!!! How totally bogus is that !!!! UNBELIEVABLE LOL Obviously absolutely no basis in reality and people are actually putting deposits on those cars !?!?!?!? I guess a sucker IS born every minute

Regarding the articles that I’ve read about the Fisker Karma - someone, perhaps Henrich himself, made the mistake of describing a scenario in which an operator of a serial hybrid would only have to buy one gallon of fuel in an entire year. It was a terrible gaffe - while such a scenario exists, it is more likely that a user would either use no fuel at all, or a few tank-fulls for long trips. Regardless, every journalist who has read his scenario has completely misinterpreted it, which has led to such blatantly false statements as “one gallon fuel engine”.

Look at this news from Teslas Homepage

online.wsj.com/article/SB120761191252596525.html

Siry!

It’s amazing. Not only has Detroit got the motivation to develop and manufacture the Volt from Tesla Motors, now also Detroit follows Tesla Motors on his move to the european market. I’m glad, that I will see more american quality products around here in europe, thanks to Tesla Motors!

Felix

GV,

Those drawings are the best Whitesatr we have seen yet….. OH wait it is the ONLY Whitestar we have seen yet !!!! Seriously - good drawings and lots of quality time spent on them - thanks You are missing the 2 back doors LOL to make it a sedan But I like the way you did the tail lights to blend well with the Raodster. I like to hood lines and the rounded tail/ trunk lines. Love the license plate and especially keen on the fabulous paint job LOL

“You are missing the 2 back doors LOL to make it a sedan ”

Really? Sigh, I guess ‘limousine’ and ’sedan’ don’t describe the exact same design, then… since what we call limousine might as well have only 2 doors…

__________

“G.V., there’s a comment on that story claiming that the “generating fan” thing was a mistake and that the fan was actually part of the air conditioning system.”

I see what you mean, I’ve read this comment too, now.
However, every press release about this car I’ve seen mentioned the fan thing as a energy generating source…

Kevin;
AFAIK, the production pipeline runs about 6 weeks. So a month, being less than 6 weeks, is still early days. Give it a rest!

Another item: Elon has snagged a supplier contract for his Falcon 1 & 9 vehicles with NASA:
________
Press Release: NASA Awards Launch Services Contract to SpaceX

CONTRACT RELEASE : C08-023

WASHINGTON — NASA has awarded Space Exploration Technologies, or SpaceX, a NASA Launch Services contract for the Falcon 1 and Falcon 9 launch vehicles.

The NASA Launch Services contracts are multiple awards to multiple launch service providers. Twice per year, there is an opportunity for existing and emerging domestic launch service providers to submit proposals if their vehicles meet the minimum contract requirements.

The contract is an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) contract where NASA may order launch services through June 30, 2010, for launches to occur through December 2012. Under the NASA Launch Services IDIQ contracts, the potential total contract value is between $20,000 and $1 billion, depending on the number of missions awarded.

The contract seeks a launch capability for payloads weighing 551 pounds or heavier into a circular orbit of 124 miles at an orbital inclination of 28.5 degrees. Payloads would be launched to support three NASA mission directorates: Science, Space Operations and Exploration Systems.

Because an IDIQ contract has been awarded to SpaceX, it can compete for NASA missions using the Falcon 1 and Falcon 9 launch vehicles as specified by the NASA Launch Services contract process.

NASA’s Launch Services Program at Kennedy Space Center is responsible for program management. This award to SpaceX adds to the stable of launch vehicles available to NASA under previously awarded contracts. The original request for proposal was issued in 1999.

—

Receiving the NASA Launch Services contract for the Falcon 1 and Falcon 9 is a significant endorsement of SpaceX’s products and of our plans for the future. In addition to the fourteen missions we’ve sold thus far, gaining NLS approval constitutes further validation of SpaceX’s technology, and opens the doors for the wide variety of NASA spacecraft to fly aboard our launch vehicles. We look forward to working with NASA to send their payloads to Earth orbit, Geostationary orbit, the Moon, Mars and beyond.

–Elon–

I liked the drawings by G.V., buth there are several different ways Tesla might go for the Wihtestar project. They might draw inspiration from the flowing concepts Mazda has been showing, or use a short nose design similar to the Honda FCX Clarity or Toyota Prius. They might even go all out to reduce drag, and end up with something like a streched 4 dor version of the EV1, or even a 4 wheel version of the Aptera!

There has been some concern about fuel going bad in a plug-in hybrid. There are 3 things that make gasoline go bad:
1. Evaporation of the lighter components, leaving the heavier “stickier” portions behind.
2. Contamination by moisture or dust.
3. Slow oxidation.
Toyota solved all 3 problems in the Prius by using a flexible “bladder” in the fuel tank to keep outside air from reaching the fuel, and blocking evaporation of the fuel A similar technique should work for PHEVs, even if the gas engine isn’t used for months or even years.

I thought that there was a Japanese car out a decade ago with a small solar panel on the roof that ran a cabin vent fan on hot sunny days to help keep the cabin of the car from baking. It was around the time when keypad locks on the door were on some cars. Neither idea seems to have gained much traction.

Brian,

Thanks for the post. No one has told us that the pipeline for a production car is 6 weeks. That was the information that I have been looking for all along. Along with now that the pipeline has “started” at what rate do cars flow through. Do they start a new one every day or every hour or every week ?!?!?!?! I am sure that TM does not want to over promise and under deliver and if that is the case then I would hope that they could at least WAY under promise and give us a time frame that would be reasonable. That is all I want.

Jim,

You said :

Realistically when I think of a 5 passenger sports sedan - Camaro, Mustang, Challenger & Barracuda come to mind along with a few others

These are not the cars I think of at all. First of all most of them are not sedans. Most are 2 door coupes. I am thinking more in the lines of BMW 535 or 545 and a Mercedes 320 or 500. A luxury sedan. Not an old muscle coupe.

Brian,

Besides the fact that we have not gotten that information, Monday the 28th is 6 weeks so I am not being all that unreasonable am I ?!?!?!?!?! 2-3 days early.

The added energy provided to the batteries would be less than the additional energy required to overcome the additional air drag.

If they didn’t have several pics, I wouldn’t have believed it - a motor unicycle:

gizmodo.com/384074/uno-a-unicycle+motorbike+segway-hybrid

Does anyone know if the transmission problem is even close to being fixed yet? If not then perhaps Tesla should lower the bar a little. I don’t think people will mind. I just want the car to be mass produced, even if it can’t give you 0-60mph in 4 seconds. Anybody else have any thoughts?

A more in-depth article on the Uno dicycle: www.motorcyclemojo.com/articles/the-uno/

Looks like I originally saw an article on the second prototype. Lots of things are interesting here…particularly the things that separate this from the e-unis I linked to. I think most notable is the second gyro, which seems to manipulate the suspension during turning (which I guess is only possible when you have two wheels to work with) and I suppose must make it easier to ride since you don’t have to adjust your forward/back position to turn. Also neat that he flew down to CA to visit Trevor Blackwell for help on the programming. Looks like two gyros is a lot trickier.

Uh, 2009, this is getting faster than I predicted.
Wonderful.

So, this initial “special edition” will be at 99k€. That would put it off my list such I believe it’s just horrible to go over the magic 6-digit limit (and I’ve just burnt bit to get a whole container of PV).
I have high hopes for the “production” vehicles.

Pete;
Yeah, what these auto-wind-power-generator types don’t get is that you want to let the wind and air slip by the car with as little disturbance and turbulence and drag as possible, not increase all those by running the air thru a high-resistance gizmo. Or: you can’t eat your aerodynamics and have them, too!

It’s too bad there isn’t a youtube video of the Uno Motorcycle in action, as photos, as stunning as they are, simply don’t do it justice. It’s like the Tesla Roadster, which looks way more impressive in the TV specials than in any static photo.

Thank you Loren, that made for quite the funny picture in my mind=)

Brian H: Actually it is a common misconception that the pressure drop generates lift to enable flight. The primary principle of lift from fixed wing flight is diplacing air downward. A wing can fly so long as the angle of attack directs sufficient air downward to lift its weight.

Pete: Actually, the aerodynamics of a wing is even more complex than that. Not only do you have the air under the wing forced downward, but the air above the wing is dragged downwards as well, thanks to the low pressure caused by the Bernoulli principle. Ultimately, the lift force upwards is a reaction to the mass of air moving downwards, both below and above the wing, in true Newtonian fashion. It isn’t Newton Vs. Bernoulli, it’s Newton AND Bernoulli working together!

Applying that to creating a downforce for cars, you’d want the car shaped something like an upside-down wing. It is important to smooth the underside, where approx. 1/3 of the drag is produced, and have the underside smoothly sloping upward from mid-point to the rear. For an illustration, look at a side view of the Aptera car.

Att: Sindre Berg,

In Norway electric cars are VAT excempt (and no other taxes either), so you needn’t bother with VAT for Norway (which makes importing electric cars from abroad very lucrative in Norway).

Sales in Europe

Somewhat surprised I notice the price for promoted cars in Europe is in Euro instead of US$. Today the exchange rate is approx. 1.55, this makes the car approx. US$ 55 000) more expensive than the “US price”. I’m willing to pay US$ 100 000 for this car, but there is no way I’ll strech all the way to US$ 155 000… sad, but true.

Kind regards,
John Sandtorv
Norway

The combination of Telsa Motors’ decision to shutter the ESS plant in Thailand, their inability to deliver P2 to Mr. Eberhard and the push for an IPO all imply that the company is running out of money.

Yes the idea of spreading more inward in Europe is very good! I know Tesla for a while and I am not sure that in Baltics many have heard of it, but I think it is just a matter of time, during my studies I came across some technologies as such, but still the old combustion rules the world also in here eventhough tehcnology is as old as the world. Anyway we welcome Tesla spreading, please think aslo about the Baltic states, since it is a very good “jump” point for such not easy markets as Russia, Ukrain etc.

I have little doubt that EV’s are the way forward. I much admire what you have achieved. While I recognise that you have considerable developement costs, a price of Euros 99,000 has no relevance to the vast majority of motoring public.

You need to be producing at the very least 1000 per week, or preferably twice that number to get your unit component costs down to where you can have some impact in the marketplace.
By impact I mean being able to sell a vehicle at around Euros 7000. Having spent some 30 years in component sourcing I am sure that it can be done, while remaining profitable to yourselves.

Put yourselves in the position of a buying public who buy a donkey every five years for very little. Along comes Enzo Ferrari offering salvation at Euros 100,000 a shot. Great for the people who already drive in guilded carriages but of no relevance to the donkey owners. There are more donkey owners than guilded carriage owners. If you are serious about having any real enviromental impact,then it is the donkey owners to whom you must be viable.

While GM, Ford , and Chrysler are asking 35 billion to keep their antedeluvian products afloat, I am sure you could persuade Obama that the entry price to real impact on the market place is much less. They are asking for heart transplants on aging cadavers at great cost, you could be asking for support for a whole new industry. It would also have positive employment potential, where as their request is for life support for a dinasour. From where I sit it is a no brainer.

I will follow your project with great interest and wish you every success.

Roger Farmer.

Dear Mr. or Mrs.,

When Tesla S sedan will be available and what will be the entering price in Europe?

Thank you for the answer,
Stanta