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This blog continues to attract some fascinating questions and perceptions regarding the philosophies of energy consumption, alternative fuels, well-to-wheel efficiency and other significant issues that affect us all. Then there’s the technology of the car itself with its lithium ion battery pack, onboard charging system, power electronics to handle the immense energy available and that little motor that blasts you towards the horizon at warp speed……Linking all these systems and their safety monitors involves more computing power than the combined total on board all the cars I’ve ever owned. You could probably add your total in too!
So, apart from the new high tech stuff, what else do we do at Tesla Motors to ensure that our customers can enjoy this unique offering?
There are a whole host of development activities from making sure the headlamps point in the right direction to tuning the suspension characteristics so that you have such superb dynamic response that you’ll want to drive straight past your home to make the enjoyment last a little longer.
Unfortunately, one of the other things we do after we’ve built these beautiful (and very expensive) shiny prototypes is re-paint them by hand in a variety of plain matte colors and crash them into walls, hit them in the side, drive a moving barrier at 50 mph into the rear and generally do nasty things to them. Ouch!
It doesn’t look so pretty without the rear body and there’s more to removing it than just to aid fitting the measuring and recording equipment. In addition to the fully instrumented Hybrid III dummies, we also place additional accelerometers in strategic positions to map the deceleration of the structure and key components. All this equipment adds so much mass to our little roadster that we have to leave the rear body off to keep the weight down to the specified maximum.
We also paint the underside components and film from below.
The rainbow colors, targets and marker scales help us identify the relative motion of the components and occupants during subsequent analysis.
I guess that not much of this is news to you. You’ve all heard about crash testing and within the industry we’ve all suffered the jokes about volunteering to be the crash test dummy. But, who’s actually witnessed a test or thought about what it must take to get an occupant that is traveling at 30mph, to zero mph within three feet or so?
You’ve possibly seen crash tests shown on TV where the car starts to crumple, the airbags gently inflate and the occupants gracefully nod their way into those big fluffy cushions and then serenely sit back in their seats….
Now hands up those who have seen one at actual speed and not slowed down 100 times?
The actual event probably took less than 1/10 of a second for the dummies to reach zero from 30 mph. That’s scary!
Just think for a moment. Imagine yourself sitting on a car seat in free space traveling at 30 mph. Now stop the seat within a couple of feet…. OK, don’t think about that! Second thoughts, if there’s anyone out there that doesn’t wear a seat belt …… do think about that.
So what happens in those 100 milliseconds? Firstly, the front of the car starts to crumple, slowing the whole vehicle. The airbag sensor (yup, another computer) which is constantly monitoring acceleration, recognizes that the car is having a significant enough accident that it should deploy the airbags. It has to differentiate this from just hitting a pot hole, re-arranging some unfortunate wildlife or knocking into that bollard in the car park that you hadn’t seen. The sensor fires the airbags at the appropriate moment. Too early and they will start to lose pressure before the occupants need them, too late and … work it out for yourselves. The sensor also fires the seat belt pyrotechnic retractors which pull in a hand full of belt length.
Why? First, the belt will tighten on the reel, effectively lengthening. Secondly, the belt will stretch under the load. (Yup, they do stretch). The retractor takes out the excess length but don’t worry about that belt stretch. Controlled stretch is good. This is all about slowing down the occupants in a progressive manner. Stopping them too quickly hurts.
So together, the seat compression, pyrotechnic retractor, belt extension, airbag inflation rate and pressure are all choreographed to slow the occupants down as progressively as possible within the time available.
Other systems that we have designed to help manage this whole event include a structural crumple zone to absorb energy, slowing the whole vehicle as progressively as possible. There is also a rigid occupant safety cell to resist the huge loads involved and generally keep all the nasty hard bits away from those inside.
As you know, we are still some months away from the start of series production for the Roadster. We are currently deep into the process of design validation, safety, performance and durability testing.
Crash testing progress? Well, we’ve done the theory. We’ve run the computer analysis and simulations. We’ve run the low speed impacts to validate the crash sensor trigger point. Then came the sleepless night before the first high speed crash test itself. There’s no other way, you’ve just got to do it and for a small company like Tesla Motors, this was pretty significant.
Was the sleepless night warranted?
• The crumple zone decelerated the vehicle within the predicted distance.
• The crash sensor recognized the crash event and triggered the bags and belts at the right moment.
• The bags deployed and the retractors retracted.
• The accelerometers within the Hybrid III dummies showed g-levels that met our targets, exceeding the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) requirements.
• The doors could be opened within the required loads.
• No electrolyte was spilt during the subsequent roll over test (Well spotted! Li-ion wouldn’t spill, would it? So no nasty stuff poured on the ground.)
• The occupant safety cell withstood the loads.
• The vehicle performed as modeled, which gives confidence about the remaining tests that we still have to complete.
I now sleep a lot better.
So having totally destroyed one beautiful prototype, we build more and impact those in the side or crash them from the rear. When the team has put so much effort into designing and building these prototypes, wrecking them within a few milliseconds always seems such a shame. However, it’s all part of ensuring that the Roadster not only meets the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS), but also delivers what we, and our customers, expect from a serious sports car.
Drive carefully 
Posted in the categories: Uncategorized, First Post, Safety, Crash test, Vehicle Engineering, British
Thanks for the inside look at your progress! Were there no surprises? Everything worked as planned? Nice job.
By the way - are you at liberty to say where the crash tests were performed?
Thanks for the great account of the crash testing and related issues. My only question: which one’s Larry, and which one’s Vince? I can never tell the dummies apart, and it’s so embarrassing!
Congratulations to the Hybrid III brothers on yet another survival - though I’m sure they had complete confidence in the engineering protecting them. Hmmm - “little motor”?! The marketing department must be cringing. How about “compact motor”? Dynamite comes in small packages
Thanks for sharing the perspective…I think we’re all witnessing something unique and historic. Best of luck on the remaining tests! And thanks for letting some of the prototypes out for people to see first hand.
Are there any specific tests required of a Electric car that differs from a ICE car to grant the roadster’s certification?
Ok, everyone knows that beautiful cars that go into production have to be crash tested. But it is kinda like birth’in babies, It might be beautiful, but some things just shouldn’t be witnessed by outsiders.
Kudos on the successful test!
One other thought: perhaps, before “dressing” the prototypes for crash tests, you could take the selected cars out on a few last “joy rides,” with lucky Tesla fans (chosen via lottery or other means) as passengers or (dare I hope) drivers? Maybe the lucky ones could walk away with a scavenged piece of the crashed vehicle as a souvenir?
Fantastic! Thats a big hurdle guys. The fact that the testing matched the modeling is especially encouraging. Is the testing being over seen by any federal authorities or anything I wonder? Do you have to run these tests again at some federal testing facility, or is that where these test were run? Good luck.
Wow, the first comment…..good news, keep up the good work !!
Many have researched the unavailability of the Nissan Skyline GTR, one of the fastest tuned cars in the world, but unavailable in the U.S. The reason being, crash testing… No company wanted to destroy the R32-34 collectibles that are no longer being made. The one company that did, eventually ran into trouble with authorities, and the stamp of approval was pulled for the R32 and R34. We may never be able to drive those street legal again… Due to safetly regs, only the R33, is only Godzilla allowed on our streets…
For each model, could you estimate the total cost front to back for planning for, applying to and finally passing all federal and state safety standards?
How many units must be destroyed?
What about future model years or model changes?
This is definately one of the most expensive barriers to entry in automaking, and calculating a firm number is helpful.
Thanks for the safety testing rundown! Off topic though - many bloggers are complaining about the Tesla’s price. In South Africa motorcars are expensive and comparisons can be made:
Porsche Caymen S costs around R 700 000 (SA Rand) which is just more than $ 90 000 (using exhange rate). 0-60 in 5.4 s.
Compare this to the Tesla’s 0-60 in 4 s and the $ 100 000 (in South African terms) seems to be well priced. Especially seeing that this is such a revolutionary vehicle with immediate cult appeal. In short you would not only be noticed in a Tesla you’d be stalked! Plus you get the better of 1.4 s acceleration advantage over and above the Caymen.
The Tesla can be compared to Porsche’s 911 Turbo 0-60 in 3.9 costing R 1.8 million ($ 232 000).
Bring things in perspective, albeit in South Africa!
What a sad day to see such a beauty crashed like that.
I’m glad the tests came out as expected so far and good luck with the next round.
This is so cool (and sad at the same time) to see! I especially like the undercarriage — with no tail pipe, muffler, catalytic converter, gas tank, etc. Beautiful! Thanks for sharing.
i have looked for flaws in this car… I have examined it and run over the facts scores of times. Your company has succeeded in SHATTERING every SINGLE roadblock to the electric car. You people are going to change the world as we know it and you should be halibut proud of it! Thank you so much for taking the time to build this technology. You have made me a happier person knowing that the impractical fuels such as hydrogen and ethanol are going to be SHUT DOWN by the beautiful device that you’ve created. Go get ‘em Tesla, I know you can take down the big guys!
Having survived two high speed accidents that totaled the vehicles with nothing more than a lap belt, I can only shake my head at these requirements! One of the vehicles was a 1962 Ford Falcon van. With eight people in it, all wearing seatbelts, the only injury requiring treatment was my second sister getting smacked in the head by the ice chest as the van rolled.
Fast forward to 1997, my friend had an accident in a car equiped with controlled crush zones, sidebars, blah, blah, blah, etc. Her only injuries were caused by the airbag! (yes, she was wearing her 3-point belt)
One can hate Nanny Government on general principles, but seeing these fantastic cars trashed gives focus to the hate!
Beautiful, absolutely beautiful.
One very important question. I’m 6′5″. Will us ogers be able to fit in the Roadster?
Wow. The roadster looks good even after it’s been crashed. Now that’s styling.
Very, very painful to look at these pics…..but thank you for sharing with us.
A bit off topic, but it’s noticeable on the internet in articles posted about the Tesla how suspicious and uneducated many of the comments are. I’ve seen 3 videos posted about the Tesla with Martin Eberhard and Elon Musk, you should take those opportunities and dismiss the most common misconceptions about electric vehicles. You have succesfully proven that an EV can also be fun to drive and have great performance, but you still have to make people realize that an EV:
- is much more efficient than any hybrid
- is not limited to one type of fuel
- even if all electricity it consumes is produced using fossil fuels, it would still pollute much less than an ICE
I don’t think I have seen you adressing these points in any interview, written or filmed, and it’s a bit of a shame. You have definately obliterated the “electric vehicle=golf cart” argument, why not use the current media attention a little better and not just show off the car, but educate the public?
Given Malcolm’s background I’m sure he agrees that Tesla should make the later Sports Sedan a Real Sports Car (in terms of fun, happening , real design ) that just happens to have more room and 4 seats. I can’t think of one “sports sedan” out there that I like.None stand out from being basically just another car, to one degree or another: boring The exception is the Mustang, but to me that’s rather large to be called a “sports sedan”. Audi/BMW/Mercedes connote sports sedan-and they are all boring; refined boxes of one type or another-need to break out of the box.So here will be Tesla’s chance to totally scoop and redefine the field- just what they need to do to get instant brand design recognition,/cachet -to go with the built-in technological recognition the sports sedan will have.
Could it be the price of oil is falling because of the Tesla Roadster?
How about some concern for the safety of your readers eyes? I can’t believe that a company founded by movers and shakers in the computer industry would allow their webmaster to violate the first rule of readability: NO BLACK BACKGROUNDS! Any number of studies by internet marketers who make their living by convincing people to read their website advertisments proves that people will not tolerate eyestrain and unreadability. If I were not so interested in the Tesla project I wouldn’t either.
“T.J. wrote:
I can’t think of one “sports sedan” out there that I like.None stand out from being basically just another car, to one degree or another”
Mmmmm, BMW M5 (mouth watering). Soon, “Mmmmm, Tesla sports sedan (puddle of drool).”
# T.J. wrote on October 3rd, 2006 at 7:15 pm
# Tesla should make the later Sports Sedan a Real Sports Car (in terms of fun, happening , real design )
# that just happens to have more room and 4 seats.
# I can’t think of one “sports sedan” out there that I like.
# None stand out from being basically just another car, to one degree or another: boring
I currently own 3 vehicles. MR2, Electric Truck & Lexus IS300
If you merge the Supercharged MR2 & The Ranger electrc truck you end up with the Tesla Roadster.
When I needed a “family car”, I ended up with a Lexus IS300.
It handles great, is comfortable, reliable and has somewhat edgey style.
(Rear wheel drive, 4 wheel A-arm suspension, etc.)
I sure would be happy with an IS300 type vehicle with a Tesla drivetrain.
I hope Tesla keeps the width somewhat narrow (
( Darn blog cuts off any time I use less than sign. )
Continued : narrow width = less than 70 inches wide.
In Japan they have some parking tax structure that results in more Japanese cars being narrow so that city folks can make good use of the compact parking spaces.
BMW style 50/50 weight distribution is nice too. Too many cars are “nose heavy”.
Short overhangs are also good. Push the wheels out near the edges of the car.
Low polar moment of intertia - concentrate the weight in the middle of the car.
Personal preference : high quality cloth seats.
I know in USA leather=luxury, but many cars like BMW & Mercedes offer cloth in other markets.
I think leather is too hot (and sticky) in the summer, and too cold in the winter. And it cracks with age.
Plus I don’t like dead cow hides in my “save the planet” vehicle.
( Being a vegetarian helps save the planet too. )
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Editor’s Answer: With tags enabled, any use of the “less than” sign will get interpreted by Wordpress. In your case, this results in a deletion. Post carefully.
Thank you! That was very cool. Best of luck in the rest of them, and I look forward to seeing your ratings!
-Dave
You say there is “no other way” besides this ghastly crash testing. Well, you _could_ make a low-speed “neighborhood” EV like GEM; you could make a three-wheeler that registers as a motorcycle, like the NmG, Xebra, or American Roadster; or you could make a “kit car” like the Tango. As far as I am aware, Tesla is the only dedicated maker of alternative-fuel vehicles out there that is actually doing the full, no-compromise testing that will result in a full, no-compromise production highway-legal vehicle; you deserve a salute for that fact by itself, in addition to all the other reasons!
Another EXCELLENT job!!!
Greetings from Europe , and some questions for you : If I buy a roadster will you adjust it so i can “refuell” (recharge)it here in europe , electric voltage is 230 V 60 Hz .
Will you consider making batery packs easily replaceable so in a future i can drop by to gas pump and replace my empty battery pack for a recharged one - this would make you popular even with oil distributors
Interesting article here covering the California EPA’s Zero Emission Vehicle Technology conference:
www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=1106
(see the MP3s on the right as well)
Martin Eberhard talks about Tesla Roadster a bit, and also the White Star: Tesla have completed the vehicle specification and feasability study. It will seat 4-5 adults, 0-60 in under 6 seconds, over 250miles on a single charge. Well-to-wheel efficiency of over 110mpg. Uses drive-train from Roadster. Factory will be built in a US state and production start anticipated in first half of 2009. Price estimate: $50k for base model.
PS One suggestion: get Jaguar to help setup the ride for the White Star.
I hope you guys are attempting to protect any patentable inventions coming from your R&D efforts. You guys seem like you’re breaking new ground here.
By the way, this is a great blog. Keep up the good work. Usually, when exciting new technology comes out, enthusiasts like us are left just watching from a distance and this blog really makes people feel plugged in and excited about what’s going on at Tesla.
Could it be laptop batteries are being recalled because of the Tesla Roadster?
The Tesla Roadster is beautiful. However, you cannot save society until everyone can afford an electric car that meets current performance standards for the family sedan. Have you looked at Vanadium batteries to improve the life of the battery and number of charges between battery relacement?
Concur the comments on the website colour scheme - my eyes are always aching after reading the blogs.
Conversely, congratulations on the crash test success and to Malcolm Powell for a Masterclass in making a dry subject interesting, amusing and informative - a rare and difficult skill.
Woof! If that picture of the car crashing into the wall doesn’t bring you back down to earth, I don’t know what will. Having said that, for some reason I am not as taken as I should be with this blog. I think its because it’s a roadster that’s being driven into a wall. I’m not saying that I’m not concerned about my safety, assuming that is me in the drivers seat of the roadster, but I would be more concerned and probably give this more importance if I saw 2 kid “dummies” in the back seat. Is there any quantitative feedback you can share from the NHTSA and/or IIHS regarding the roadster?
Glad to see/hear that you’re completing your safety testing with good results. Please keep us informed when/how we can purchase one.
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Editor’s Answer: Take a look at the reservations page.
Martin,
It appears that you have chosen existing and proven technology. Great!
I have been working on projects for the DOD that have some interesting synergies with your program.
For Example:
You use multiple Lithium batteries. We just finished a study for the Navy that employed a similar configuration. While we have not yet gone to production, we designed a method of charging in parallel and operating in series. This facilitates a 10 minute recharge. AT A SAFER VOLTAGE!!!
We also studied a voltage boost circuit at the inverter. This allowed us to build multiple 40 volt battery pods, located throughout the vehicle. While the Navy wanted a “survivable” power source, it plays here too.
Naturally we employed a series of Friesen Power Motors. I believe that I can improve the efficiency of you car by 40% during city driving with MY motor. I believe that I can improve the highway efficiency by about 15%.
I also believe that I can demonstrate justification for a 4 wheel drive version.
Will Friesen
President
Friesen Power
Great post! Thanks for all that information.
And btw, we just linked to your previous one here:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/10/tesla_motors_th.php
Here is a link to Martin’s presentation at the ZEV conference:
www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/symposium/presentations/eberhard.pdf
It has some info about Tesla’s second generation “White Star” sports sedan.
Cannot wait to see in person your car. I encourage you to create the higher volume yet fun sedan you talk about. Didn’t see anything about summer driving….how does the A/C affect performance?
RE. flabby & TEG comments about sports sedans, I’m not impressed with the BMW M5 or Lexus IS300-but I am kind of impressed with the Lexus SC430- the hardtop convertible. The M5 is basically another slab-sided box, well detailed box, but a box.If you’re going to do a box, make it an exciting, zippy, unique , user-friendly real box with personality-like the Mini-Cooper. I want a sports sedan that looks more like the Porsche Cayman: that is more sports, less sedan-basically a sports car that has the room of a sedan-I want the smooth, racy airplane-like curves of the Cayman-and I want that great hatchback too.Something like that, friends and neighbors, would be a REAL “sports sedan”-the likes of which I don’t see out there-unless someone else can tell me which “sports sedan” does this?-maybe there is one, but I can’t think of it.Tesla has a chance to totally upgrade the “sports sedan” design concept-and make one unlike any other. I have never liked the concept of “sedan” per se. So, like I said, do a sports car with the real room of a sedan and you have made the first true “SPORTS sedan”-and a car I would like-and would buy over any other “sedan”-and pay a little more for-just to have a real car with personality, not a glorified box. If I were Tesla I’d turn a great design team loose, get out of their way , and tell them to follow Harvey Corman’s advice, to whit: ” Go Do That Voodoo That You Do So Well!”
I know-the “Voodoo” quote is by way of Cole Porter-a classy guy-he also wrote that great song “I Get a Kick Out of You” If Tesla is working on the “White Star” sedan design, “even as we speak”, that should be their theme song/mantra: design a car that gives the buyer that feeling, on all levels, and you’ve got a unique winner. The technology is unique, I hope to halibut the design is as well.
# busybee64 wrote on October 4th, 2006 at 1:12 pm
# Here is a link to Martin’s presentation at the ZEV conference:
# www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/symposium/presentations/eberhard.pdf
Thanks for the link!
P.S. to above: just thought of another “song to design cars by” “Wild Thing”…. “I think you move me (to 60 in under 6 seconds)”- “but I’ve gotta know for sure (Foooommmm!)-You MOVE me”!
I am in the financial business and want to leave a question on this blog. When you have a product as good as this and investors will knock down your door to invest in the company why on earth isn’t Tesla fast tracking the building and mass production of the second generation car so most people could afford it and buy it as soon as humanly possible.
If we are to get ourselves off oil and to purchase electric cars they must become available as quickly as possible. I see the great product but I don’t see the speed in getting a affordable second generation car to market.
Comments based on looking at the presentation on that link:
* The photos of the crash test say “Siemen’s Restraint Systems GmbH” so I am guessing the crash test was done in Germany…
* White Star Status page says:
** “Preliminary vehicle architecture complete”
** “Chassis and body technologies chosen”
** “USA factory site location study underway”
** “drivetrain (from Roadster)”
The covered car photo looks a bit like an Acura, but it is probably just a stock photo and not necessarily representative of the actual profile of the final vehicle (right?)
It is compared to some rear-wheel-drive Luxury performance sedans like Mercedes E55 AMG, BMW 545i, Lexus GS 430.
Will White Star Tesla Sedan be rear wheel drive like the Roadster?
I wonder if they plan to put the battery pack under the front hood, or run it longitudinally under the car in a place where a conventional car would have a transmission tunnel?
That White Star example (under wraps) in the presentation looks like an Acura Integra LS Sedan:
www.autoworm.com/images/1593234.jpg
Reminder: here is a link I posted a while back showing a nice looking sports sedan (slightly reminiscent of the Acura Integra) that has some styling cues I hope to see in “White Star”:
www.motorage.com/motorage/data/articlestandard/motorage/102006/312090/031606NL_UC3.jpg
At $50K+, White Star will be tempted to be more “upmarket” with more conservative styling and an overall bigger size than I would like.
$50K puts it more in class with:
Acura RL
www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2005/Acura/100444153/20022587-T.jpg
Infiniti M45
www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2007/Infiniti/20091909-T.jpg
Audi S4
www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2006/Audi/100672761/20030621-T.jpg
BMW M3
www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2001/BMW/100002055/000806-T.jpg
Jaguar S-Type
www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2007/Jaguar/20100030-T.jpg
Lexus GS 430
www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2007/Lexus/100778750/20097103-T.jpg
Mercedes C55 AMG
www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2006/Mercedes-Benz/100557274/20026192-T.jpg
TEG seems to know too much- must stand for ” Tesla Executive Group”. Scott has a point-why aren’t some other high-profile guys-like Richard Branson (this should be right down his alley) Paul Allen - investing in Tesla? The White Star car is going to be a slam-dunk hit, particularly in the long run. They say something like “preliminary design work done” on “carb.zev presentation” website. I’m impressed with how fast Tesla is moving, but I hope they take the time to do a great, different car design-because the sales value of that would be priceless. I hope they don’t water down the design to suit “everyone’s taste”-that may be “smart”, but if the car costs approx. $50,000, I say “do the right thing” and do the thing right-save the conservative design for the “Gray Star” 3rd car design-the one that would sell for around $30,000, or less.
RDE wrote: How about some concern for the safety of your readers eyes? … If I were not so interested in the Tesla project I wouldn’t either.
You and me both Buddy. If it was purple on pink I’d still read every word.
Vern
I am happy to see a car company dedicated to fully electric vehicles. I wish you would build one that I can afford. Your current model cost four times what my current vehicle cost new. I have been researching and designing my own electric vehicle for a long time from off the shelf parts using a vw transaxle. I will have to build the cockpit and suspension supports myself from tube. I would like to know if your motor, transaxle and control system can be bought as a kit for a reasonable price.
Put in a good 6-speed w/ a clutch (sure, the clutch-less 2 speed may be all thats necessary, but thats not really much fun is it?), and hire someone with a bit of style to design the interior and you’ll have yourselves a very nice little car there.
Do that, put the steering wheel on the proper side
and ship ‘em over to Australia (only hard-tops please, soft-tops make our roads ugly) and we’ll welcome with open arms!
The barriers of a mighty ice car producing province are starting to crumbling ! www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2006/10/04/e-bike-ontario.html
Congratulations on this major milestone! I would have thought the destroying the cars would have been the last step. How much longer is this testing going to take?
You guys have shown the world that the electric car is the best option for the future. I speculate the GM dropped their EV1 program because of their close relationship with the oil companies. Anyway their loss is your gain.
Jerry MacDonald has suggested vanadium batteries. I checked out www.vrbpower.com web site and found that they do not market these batteries for cars because they would add about 1000 lbs to the Tesla Roadster and take up twice the volume! Lithium batteries are improving rapidly and will double or tripple in capacity in a few years, and the price is comming down.
Has the car been designed to comply with Euro NCAP testing criteria (www.euroncap.com/)? These involve a frontal impact at 64 km/h (about 40 MPH instead of 30), and various other tests.
Since this is an “assesment”, rather than a compliance program, what I mean by compliance would be a four or five star rating.
Can i get one with the paint job from the crash test?
just kidding
Have you considered what happens if the battery cell splits? I understand that lithium does not react too well when in normal atmospheres which have moisture in fact it becomes unstable and “can” ignite.. I would appreciate any comments on this topic
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Editor’s Surprise: Take a look at the Safety Page.
Dear Teslamotors:
I recently was made aware of this new technology from this guy in Florida called Aqueyon. Apparently this guy figured out how to use electrolysis to break down H2O into HHO. He is using this as a fuel for welding. I am not sure if this is legit as of yet. He also claimed that Aqueyon(HHO) can be used as an additive to our standard gasoline to improve effeciency to 30%. I emailed them and asked if it would be possible to fuel the car with only Aqueyon and they replied that the current cars are not designed for this, it would require a new type of engine. A light bulb went inside my head and I said to myself, what if you guys at tesla design an engine that runs on aqueyon and put that in with your electric car and make it a truly zero emission hybrid car. It would solve the long range issue because all you need to do is add water.
But then again Aqueyon may just be a hoax because you can’t get something for nothing. Tell me what you think.
Re: Will Friesen post.
Just checked out the Friesen Power website, www.friesen-power.com/. Pretty impressive claims. If I were Tesla Engineering I’d definitely solicit a proposal, if not for the roadster, then certainly for follow on vehicles.
By the way, I should have posted the main page with links to all the presentations at the ZEV conference. Has some interesting papers, including ones from WrightSpeed and and AC Propulsion.
www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/symposium/presentations/presentations.htm
GM is still stuck on hydrogen fuel cells. It’s a shame such a massive investment is being made in such a losing technology.
UGH!!—that Acura photo as well as the “covered” photo in the presentation sends shivers of disgust throughout my TESLA Roadster loving body.
PLEASE—a beautiful car is like a beautiful woman…it turns heads no stomachs!
When I and millions of other TESLA fans and potential Sedan buyers see the sedan for the 1st time, we want to scream—
WOW–that car is like looking at a naked HALIBUT!
LA Auto Show
December 1-10, 2006
Tesla Motors will be in the Yokohama booth—
Will the Red and Black Roadsters both be there and will TESLA staff give any presentations and Road Tests??
Dates and Times for presentations??
Fees for Road Tests??
Thanks!
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Editor’s Answer: One of the Tesla Roadster Engineering Prototypes will be there. There will be several people from Tesla Motors. There are no presentations or drives planned.
your car is named after me and thats really funny my parents make fun of me it’s just really funny now im the the tesla roadster it’s funny we all just came back from pebble beach but we did’nt go to that part so we did’nt get to it but it is beautiful
This thing looks awesome, i would really like to have.
Man, I love this car, the performance specs are amazing.
I WAS wondering however, if there are things that can be done to increse the range?
for example, if I were to plop some photovoltaic panles on top, could I charge it while driving? or would I have to be parked? Or if I were to put a small gas generator in the trunk, could I effecivly hybridize it?
I had a look at some other presentations from ZEV Symposium. One thing I dont understand. Chris Guzy states in his presentation, slide no.4: www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/symposium/presentations/guzy.pdf
that fuel cell vehicle tank to wheel efficiency is “high” =greater than 50% and that a battery EV efficiency is “medium-high”, result of comparison between technologiws being “fuell cell is the best”. On the other hand, Martin in his presentation, slide no.21: www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/symposium/presentations/eberhard.pdf
states fuel cell is only 40% efficient, less than half of efficiency of electric…
I don’t get it.
In response to Paul,
Aqueyon is a hoax. It’s just another name for Brown’s Gas, a mixture of hydrogen gas and oxygen gas. It turns out it’s not nearly as good as acetylene for welding (since acetylene has more stored energy) and it can be explosively unstable at certain pressures. Also, it requires more energy to split water than you get when you recombine it (by burning the gas mixture).
For more info, check out: forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=56705
i can find out almost every thing but the list cost of the car. Can you please please advise? Regards Jim
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Editor’s Answer: Take a look at the reservations page.
I live in Florida and we do have a lot of sun. Can the car be fitted solar panels either from the factory or in the after market to help in the charging of the batteries. Regards Jim
James Deeble:
Click the Buy button and you’ll have the cost: $100K
Forget the solar panels on the car. As mentioned elsewhere, you can have solar panels installed on your house to charge the batteries..
# busybee64 wrote on October 5th, 2006 at 9:22 am
# GM is still stuck on hydrogen fuel cells.
# It’s a shame such a massive investment is being made in such a losing technology.
Ain’t it the truth!
# Jim Wells wrote on October 5th, 2006 at 10:01 am
# UGH!!—that Acura photo as well as the “covered” photo in the presentation sends shivers
# of disgust throughout my TESLA Roadster loving body.
Keep in mind that the presentation may have just taken a random stock photo of a covered car. The sedan isn’t due until 2009 so I wouldn’t put much stock in the picture in the presentation or the Acura inTEGra that looked similar. Actually I think that Acura is not half bad looking, and about the right size and shape for what I would want, but I couldn’t imagine Tesla basing their 2009 model on a 1999 chassis. It has to be a random stock photo or just a coincidence that a white-star profile has a similar profile to that older model.
# James Deeble wrote on October 5th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
# I live in Florida and we do have a lot of sun.
# Can the car be fitted solar panels either from the factory or in the after market to help in the charging of the batteries. Regards Jim
There isn’t enough surface area on the car to get a whole lot of power out of solar cells. The added weight and drag of putting them on the vehicle could cancel out any gains.
As Al said, you are much better off putting a whole lot of solar panels on your house so you can generate useful amount of power.
Atir, the key phrase is “vehicle tank to wheel efficiency”. This assumes the hydrogen exists already.
They also list the “Well-to-Wheels Energy Efficiency” as “Low” to “High”, as it is H2 source dependent (more than one way to create it). e.g. through electrolysis (low efficiency) or conversion from natural gas (higher efficiency). Either way is not ideal. Especially considering the recent instability of natural gas prices. And we were using natural gas to create hydrogen for the transport infrastructure en masse, you can bet the price would go up a lot.
The master plan, which GM seems to be on board with, is that coal is turned into hydrogen and ultimately electricity with low emissions of sulfur oxide, nitric oxide, mercury, and the potential to recapture CO2 (aka “Clean Coal”). The coal industry is huge. It produces the majority of power in the United States. We have at least a 250 year supply, and we may have only scratched the surface. Politicians are enticed with grand plans. But utilities are always too cheap to implement them or weasel out of it.
A catch of the 1997 Clean Air Act was they offered utilities a break by letting them put off installing pollution control equipment until they made other plant changes. Utilities did not do so.
So we’re stuck with the status quo. Oil companies keep pumping. Coal companies keep digging. Utilities keep making power with minimal clean tech equipment modification (or kick and scream every step of the way). Clean Coal and Hyrdogen Fuel Cell R&D money from the government coffers are poured into companies with little or no tangible effect on real world implementation. It’s all talk and no action.
I liked Martin’s analogy he made on a radio show recently. If he makes his daughter clean her room, she won’t put her best foot forward. But if she does something because she wants to it’s a world of difference. Don’t be discouraged. Let GM and the auto companies kick and scream about EV’s. Tesla will capitalize on the missed opportunity. I’m a firm believer that positive evolution of human civilization have almost always come from innovation rather than regulation.
# T.J. wrote on October 4th, 2006 at 11:28 pm
# TEG …must stand for ” Tesla Executive Group”.
In my dreams… I don’t have anything to do with them other than being a bit hyperactive in their blog.
I do own an EV, but (unfortunately) not a Tesla.
Why don’t you use the Altair Nano-safe Lithium Ion batteries where you measure recharge time in minutes rather than hours. I could never buy a car that would only go 250 miles before a four hour layover. Will your batteries explode like the Sony batteries do……..that might have a chilling effect on ones insurance rates. The Altair Nano-safe batteries have never displayed this problem. I have no connection with Altar except to have read alot about them and it seems as if they are on the right track when it comes to auto batteries and they would be a welcomed addition to your car so that it can have some range and safety.
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Editor’s Answer: Take a look at our safety page.
busybee64 mentions the master plan GM has bought into of turning coal into hydrogen- U.S. having at least a 250 year coal supply. I just did a google search and found out that stars like our sun have a lifespan of about 10 billion years.I think we’ve got at least 5.44 billion years of solar power left. As Alfonso Bedoya once said to Humphrey Bogart : “Coal? We don’t need no stinking coal!-or badgers either!” -or something like that.
# T.J. wrote on October 5th, 2006 at 8:42 pm
# … “We don’t need no stinking coal!-or badgers either!” -or something like that.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stinking_badges
And with Video clips:
www.darryl.com/badges/tvindex.shtml
I really have enjoyed reading the blog and educating myself on the technical aspects of energy. Martin’s reference to energy density and it’s importance had me searching for answers that led me to this site… xtronics.com/reference/energy_density.htm I now have a better grasp on why the car companies and our government see hydrogen as the holy grail and that keeping the public addicted to “consuming a product ” is the main agenda. It is also apparent why gasoline/diesel has been so difficult to supplant with something else. Hurdles like crash testing, to the extent required, for a new car company is just a minor example. No doubt I’m happy it will be safe car, thanks for crashing your baby TM.
Infrastructure is the key, and also powers our economy to a greater extent than I first realized. With the advent and future advantage of solar for distributed power there is a giant threat to the infrastructures status quo. With all the presentation material from Tesla that I’ve reviewed, it really comes down to efficiencies. The ICE engine no matter how it is fueled, appears that it can no longer compete. The infrastructure of the auto industry (repair, fluid changes and routine maintenance, after-market tuning), let alone gas stations as we know them, will be disrupted, period. That is a huge dilemma. I’m not a tree-hugger by any means and hold a very strong anti big oil chip on my shoulder, but in educating myself on the energy advantages Tesla presents I also see that we as a nation will need to radically change, and quickly based on Peak Oil projections and consumption projections www.peakoil.com/forum12.html, our underlying economy.
Thanks Tesla Motors for opening our eyes and providing an end product.
To hell with badges and gasoline.
Thanks for the video link TEG.
Actually it should be “Gasoline? We don’t need no steeenking Gasoline”
2009? Fudge. I don’t want to wait that long. But 100K is out of the question too. White Star? You should name the plant where they are made Mimbar then, too cute. Too bad you can’t hire the mimbari to make them too.
Third generation could be called the Andromeda. I’m sure you’re looking for locations for a manufacturing plant now. How about a hint ? Maybe you can let us in on where you’re location finalists are? hint. hint.
Hello i have a little idee for your car. The car have no store selution for the energy the car produce when its driving. I read about a man who have produced a car who have a dynamo in the wheel who are produsing electricity when the wheels are spinning. This electricity can be stored with the same system just i hybridscar. Add some solar and the car is ready for mas production
Well, yes, it was originally badges, but UHF did say badgers and for some of us younger bloggers that may be the influence, though John Huston’s classic should obviously get the credit. I would appreciate the editor of the page adding a reference to “Balance” for quotes such as Jan Ove Sakkestad’s. They don’t seem to be subsiding; lots of perpetual motion believers out there! While like Bill above, I hope Tesla is looking into the Altair battery claims/validity, the charging speed is only one reason. In addition, the batteries supposedly last to 9000 charges (Tesla’s 100,000 miles works out to 400 charges at 250 miles per charge) and up to 20 years. Obviously the technology is not fully or independently tested, but Tesla could do the job! Or maybe Phoenix Motorcars beats them to it? Hope not.
Congrats on the testing. Looks like it’s one step closer to seeing these babies on the road. I can’t afford one personally, but I can’t wait to see one in person. Maybe some day….
Would you ship one to Canada? The power to weight ratio and using lotus as a partner (q.v. Elise) is fantastic…
RE. Ty comment-they could also name the plant Titanic. Nevermind-bad idea, baaaa-d!
If you are planning on being at the LA auto show are you also coming to New York in April? I know several people want to see it up close me included!!!!
RE. Ryan comment- someday is early Dec.-L.A. auto show. I go every year.Supposed to be at Yokohama display-that would be the lower level. One day Tesla will have a room all to themselves upstairs-like Porsche always does-but a bigger, shinier room. Yes!
I would like to know how the Tesla Roadster performs in rising flood water. I imagine the electricity from it could have disastrous consequences.
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Editor’s Answer: Take a look at the Battery System White Paper.
I am speculating that the white star sedan will be built in Canada via a joint venture between Tesla Motors and Feel Good Cars, Feel Good Cars also as a sedan in it’s future,Feel Good Cars will sell it’s sedan in Canada and Europe and Tesla Motors will sell it’s White star sedan in the U.S. .The white star will use the EESTOR ultra capacitor,How is that for a speculation!
Charging time
Tesla Roadster batteries could already be charged faster with more powerfull charger and somewhat different onboard electronics. They are standard LiIon cells. How may of you charge your cellphones for 3,5 hours? My cellphone is fully charged in about an hour and there is no fundamental reason why charging 7000 cellphones in parallel would take any longer then charging one alone. As long as there is enough power.
Charging 50kWh in 3,5hours requires 17kW charger. This is maximum power eny existing standard prowides and already more power then many home electric connection provides.
So, it is already posible to fully charge Tesla’s batteries is about an hour but you would need 50kW of electric power. No home electric connection has that but dedicated charge stations could be established with such a connections. Tesla Roadster electronics would have to be adapted to some degree to allow higher currents.
So 3,5h charging time is NOT a LiIon battery limitation. No new battery technology is needed for faster charging. To charge faster you only need more powerful electric connection. On the other side, new faster charging battery types would still require 3,5 hours to fully charge becase there is only 17kW of power for charging and you need of 50kWh charge.
To attain shorter chraging times we need new higher power charging standard so charge stations could be established providing fast charge service. At home it would still take 3,5hours to fully charge. Even if you had ultracapacitors.
Like many others on this blog, I love the car, love the concept and wish Tesla Motors all the best, but, unfortunately, I can’t afford the $100k either.
So….I was wondering… how much would you want for the one you just crashed? Oh…and, can you recommend a good auto body repair shop.
Thanks,
Eddie
What is the durability of the batteries during extreme temperature cycling and vibration. Once a number of batteries are nolonger functional… what are the disposal methodologies? Are the batteries capeable of current recycling techniques or do new techniques need to be developed? What are various product “end of life scenarios” for the entire vehicle… presuming at some point it will go to the “junk yard”. Will the current electrical grids be able to properly charge vehicles at peak electrical useage periods? Website is too dark… I can see anything… lighten it up…
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Editor’s Answer: Take a look at this blog posting for details of battery recycling - they are too valuable to just throw away. Take a moment to read the white papers for more detailed information on batteries and at the charging and batteries page.
City dwellers are doomed. Why? Where do we plug in? Before I moved into my house, I used to live in a condo complex here in Los Angeles. I can only imagine the ‘fun’ I would have had convincing the owners association that I needed a dedicated non-tandem parking space and the ability to run metered power to that space. Although I now live in a house with a three-car garage…. one-third is used to store all sorts of….. artifacts. The remaining two spaces house two of my three vehicles. My everyday vehicle I street park. Come to think of it, when I think of the habits of most of my friends… their cars are mostly either street or driveway parked too. How do we plug-in then? Okay, granted, the Roadster is the exception now. But when you go online with your sedan or other ‘everyday’ wide market vehicle, you must have a different battery charging/changing system. Eventually Tesla will target their vehicles to a mass audience that will include apartment dwellers and others that have no dedicated home parking. Maybe technology will soon bring us batteries that will let us fully charge our Tesla’s in less than 5 minutes rather than hours. Or maybe future designs will have both a semi-permanent battery system (like your current design) and a replaceable system (gas station approach). Markets such as New York City and Chicago will require some thought to this issue due to their parking density solution issues.
Look forward to seeing your car at the LA Auto show this year. And more anxious to actually take delivery of one next year. (I guess I’ll have to clean-out those darned artifacts).
Amazing what you have done. I wish this car comes to europe one day.
please take a look at these two photos of the tesla roadster you have at the wallpapers in your website.
rapidshare.de/files/35879471/tesla-brakes.zip.html
why the drills in the rotors are different ? ain’t that a mistake ?
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Editor’s Answer: This is a standard part. The hole positions are not important.
Here is Toshiba’s Li-Ion fast charge announcemment.
Even though it does not have the as high an energy density, in time it will, but the 1 minute 80% charge time is nice.
After all most of the EV is predicated on the improvements in batteries.
Perhaps a commercial site could charge the battery pack to 80% quickly and a home unit for overnight charge.
www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=159907938
# Eddie wrote on October 7th, 2006 at 9:19 am
# So….I was wondering… how much would you want for the one you just crashed?
==================
I have visions of a Fry’s Electronics ad of the near future: (In huge print, with promotional grahpic) Tesla Roadster $25,000 (In very small print at bottom of ad) Limited to stock on hand, no refunds, as is, crash test prototypes, not factory refurbished to original manufacturer’s specifications.
# Sean McCann wrote on October 7th, 2006 at 10:34 am
# City dwellers are doomed. Why? Where do we plug in? Before I moved into my house,
# I used to live in a condo complex here in Los Angeles.
I live in a condo complex in Santa Cruz, and was wondering if anyone would raise the above question before I did. Anyone who ponied up $100K for a Roadster would almost certainly be able to provide proper “stable space” for it, including the necessary electric tap. But guys like me would not only have to fork over major cash for the car, we’d have to MOVE to a place that would be more amenable to “our pet.” I can’t see running an extension cord out to the car in the shared parking lot every night, and forgeddaboudit it if my wife were already parked in the single space we pay for and I were forced to park on the street, as now happens a time or two per week. Clearly you’d want to park something like the Roadster indoors, as you might a Ferrari, Vette, or Viper, for example, but, like Sean, I see people park their Mercedeses, lower-end Porsches and Audis, and Beamers on the street or in driveways or communal parking lots all the time. It’ll be interesting to see how the world adjusts, and how quickly.
Another plus for electric cars like the Tesla.
ICE motors loose power at high altitudes.
Output can drop more than 1/2 at the extremes. Air/ fuel ratios can be adjusted while the Electrics zoom by.
Good point Sean McCann! Prospective Telsa owners can start NOW to encourage public “friendly outlets” in public and corporate parking spaces. photovoltaic (PV) outfitted carports and shelters on the top of parking structures are not a new concept but need to be encouraged at public forums and design review opportunities. The Kaiser hospital parking structure near me has two 110v outlets on each floor near parking spaces almost always occupied by ICE SUVs. Think of it, how fast can you get in & out of Kaiser? I never have to worry about the charge level on my way home!- with lead-acid yet!
Otherwise, how long has it been that a car company’s project incited so much creative thinking or revealed how poorly we understand the basic tenets of Physics.
The idea of spending $100,000 for a vehicle to save a few hundred dollars a year in gasoline is absolutely ludicrous. I’ll think about it when the life span gets up to 500 years so I have a chance of recouping my investment.
RE. Sean comment- a lot of apartments/condos have a certain percentage of garage parking spaces you can rent/buy (most “A” or “B” grade apts. would have maybe 15%, or more, of parking spaces as garages).Guess you could plug in car to ceiling garage light fixture, if no wall outlet-which there probably wouldn’t be in an apt. garage.
Just read an article about coal in the Oct. 9 issue of Time Magazine. Says U.S. Govt. has a project called “Future Gen” to “generate electricity from coal,spinning off hydrogen for a new generation of hybrid cars,while eliminating all pollutants and siphoning off CO2 to store it deep underground”. Earlier in the week I saw a PBS T.V. show with Bill Moyers called “Capitol Crimes” about the lying weasel. D.C lobbyist system (focusing on Jack Abramoff and his association of criminal idiots. The association is still operating, with fresh criminals at the helms). In the Time article it said Texas puts out 10% of U.S. greenhouse gases, more than Canada or England-and its power plants top the nation in mercury emissions. The” Texas mentality” also, via Enron, brought Calif. its energy crisis of a few years ago.Against this we have the state of California and other progressive states-Washington, Oregon, N.Y. -and others. I’m not up on all of what they’re doing-I know more about Calif. & San Fran. The point is: the mass media, like Time, is basically lying & manipulating the agenda on behalf of those behind the abovementioned lobbyists (numbering 35,000 in D.C.). That “35,000″ should be in neon red letters for those that are “hard of seeing”. I hope to heck the silicon valley posse like the Google guys, et al, keep the pedal to the medal with what they’re doing. I would hope other influential types join them, as Elon Musk has. Because here’s the facts: solar, via Nanosolar Co. , and others, can clean the clock of every other energy source-and “someone at Time Magazine” knows this.Just find the best, cheap way to store the power at night and it’s all over. Time Magazine and it “handlers” want us to get our energy by purchasing it ALL the time, forever, from “someone”. Whereas ‘Mr. Sun” (”Mr. Brightside” ,say, of the “KIllers ” song?) charges us nothing: zero, zilch, nada: forever. So, ‘Time Magazine” , don’t feed me your “well written, reasonable-sounding , carefully crafted, agenda-controlling, manipulating HALIBUT, get it?, got it? GOOD! I know some people’s jobs depend on fossil fuels, but some people’s jobs depended on making buggy whips at one time.There will always be a use for coal/ethanol-like to make jet fuel, ship fuel.Not only that, with all the infernal combustion vehicles out there now it would takes years on end before they” all” bit the dust. But noooo!-that fact isn’t good enough for Time Mag. and its oily weasel handlers-they’re going to push the agenda for ” fossil fuels as usual” to the bitter end. So: we as a country will go thru all the gymnastics it takes to dig up coal, ship it, make “clean” coal power plants & pump the C02 deep into the ground-and on top of it “we the people” will have to buy this power from “them” and buy our hydrogen for cars from “them” every halibutin’ week. When in reality all we have to do is put Nanosolar panels on our home/business roofs and we (the people) are free from this B.S. while the sun shines. If Nanosoalr & others would look into cheap state-of-the art fuel cells or other cheap means to store the sun power, we’d be free also when the “sun don’t shine”-Yo!: put it there, Time Mag.! Of course maybe 1/3 the country isn’t good for solar. To solve that problem we carpet the desert floor of a small part of Nev., Calif, New Mexico, Ariz. etc. (& forget Texas) with Nanosolar or similar and ship the power north, just like their precious coal-generated power. For those in this country who haven’t wised up yet, there are forces at work that are halibuting sinister-and they’ll con and manipulate you/us absolutely, positively as long as they can get away with it-any devious way they can.That “helps explain” 35,000 D.C. “lobbyists” for a govt. of 100 senators and less than 600 house members-and lobbyists are only PART of the weasel cadre: think Enron and countless entities filled with lesser weasels, but weasels nonetheless. It’s time for us (U.S.) to bypass all these sundry halibuters- I sure wish “middle America” (or whoever, as applies) would wake up to the “ongoing con”,in all its manifestations.
##Bill DeMichieli wrote on October 7th, 2006 at 8:27 pm
##The idea of spending $100,000 for a vehicle to save a few hundred dollars a year in gasoline is absolutely ludicrous. I’ll think about it when ##the life span gets up to 500 years so I have a chance of recouping my investment.
A few hundred dollars a year??? Try a couple thousand dollars per year (at $3/ gallon). Rather than do calculations for the $100,000 roadster, let’s look at the somewhat more resonably priced tesla sports sedan (code named the white star, projected to be priced at around $50,000). The white star is compared by Martin Eberhard in his presentation (www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/symposium/presentations/eberhard.pdf) to both the BMW 545i ($43,800) and the Lexus GS 430 ($53,090). In the presentation both cars were said to get 20 mpg. Assume that one drives 15,000 miles a year, that gas is $3/gallon, and that the White Star costs about the same as the roadster per mile (1 to 2 cents/mile for off peak charging). At 15,000 miles a year, both the Lexus and the BMW would use (15,000miles /20 miles per gallon) 750 gallons of gas, and cost (750 gallons times $3 per gallon) $2250 per year for the gas. At 1 cent per mile the White Star would cost $150 per year. That is a $2100 per year savings in fuel costs. Even at 2 cents per mile, the annual fuel cost for the White Star would still be $1950 less than the Lexus and BMW. There are obviously numerous other cost considerations to add to the equation (ie. government rebates, maintenance and service, replacement parts, and the cost of replacing a battery for the White Star when it surpasses it’s useful life), but fuel cost savings, in and of themselves, appear to be considerable.
A comment about replacement of the battery pack: I understand that the cost of the battery pack is currently $20,000. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if in 6 plus years after purchasing the White Star (when it comes time to replace a battery pack) that a battery pack replacement of similar storage capacity will have dropped in price to $5,000 or less, or that there may be a very nice upgrade available.
great yahoo spot… more please…
Tesla’s cander is exceptional!!!
Was curious if you are using these tools/methods. My personal opinion for saving extra CASH, Cross functional Eng/Mfg/Qlty, 6S, DF6S, and Y14.41 (no paper, or virtual paper), only use profile,and position of 0 at MMC except when you need RFS. More need when you go primetime in mass production (vendors and you concurrent). Remember Japanesse are tops in quality, keep an agenda spot for that. Just some thoughts to pass along if not already flying that way.
saving in the land of sky blue water
Tesla Motors
Congrats on the PM award! It confirms my own feelings I had when I first encountered your web page.
On page 6 of the October 6-8 USA Weekend insert in my Sunday paper, your roadster is featured. I recoginzed the photo right away. Interesting quotes are : “This is a sexy and sporty electric car, something your teenage kids certainly won’t be embarrassed to see parked in the driveway when their friends visit.”
And, “In researching her upcoming book, “Plug-in Hybrids: The Cars that Will Recharge America”, author Sherry Boschert compiled every available analysis of emissions from plug-in hybrids and their power sources. Clear consensus from more than 30 separate studies: Even with power coming from the U.S. power grid, plug-in hybrids and electric vehicles reduce greenhouse gas emission significantly.” To me, this adds further weight to your analysis!
On a depressing note, today’s paper also noted that truck and SUV sales were up in September, what with falling gas prices. How will Tesla overcome this bias?
# Bill DeMichieli wrote on October 7th, 2006 at 8:27 pm
# The idea of spending $100,000 for a vehicle to save a few hundred dollars a year in
# gasoline is absolutely ludicrous. I’ll think about it when the life span gets up to 500
# years so I have a chance of recouping my investment.
Your savings will obviously depend on your car and the amount and kind of of driving you do, as well as the cost of the gasoline you must buy. Outside California, for example, gas is a lot cheaper. Some cars require more costly Premium. I like to drive, and have regularly driven zippy, nimble, or powerful cars in the past couple of decades. But at the moment, I’m driving a 2004 Ford Taurus. (What can I say: it had the room and performance I needed for my daily Highway 17 commute, and the price was very right.) The trip computer tells me that I regularly get between 23-23 mpg, averaged over all of the driving that I do. My commute is 66 miles, and I probably drive another 75 miles, on average, per week. That’s at least 405 miles per week, or 21,060 miles per year. Divide that by 22.5 mpg, and you get 936 gallons. At $2.50/gallon, that’s $2340/year. At $3/gallon, it’s $2808/year. At three cents per mile for electricity, I would spend about $632/year on EV fuel. Total yearly fuel savings for me would range from $1708 to $2176. Split the difference and call it $1942 (assuming optimistically that gas remains around its current price level indefinitely). Add in six oil changes at $60 each (I get the synthetic oil to keep my engine in good shape for the mountain commute), and a tune up (maybe $50, which I usually purchase as part of a more expensive periodic service package), plus a smogging at $20 per year (actually $40 every two years), and I would see a total EV-related operational savings of $2372.
Over 20 years, this savings would amount to $47440 — or more if gasoline prices continue on an upward trend.
Now, there would be counterbalancing EV costs — I’m thinking primarily of replacing the battery pack, which would have to happen about every five years. The first replacement may be expensive, but improvement in battery technology, especially capacity and lifetime, and efficiency of mass-production as more Tesla cars are sold, promise to lower subsequent replacement costs. Bear in mind also that, over the same time period, an ICE drivetrain and emissions system would typically need major servicing and/or replacement, which the EV’s won’t.
Taken over the long term of 20 years (which is a lot shorter than your 500), and assuming someone who has to drive a lot with no more than 1 passenger, even the Roadster, at its high price point, begins to be comparable in total cost of ownership and operation, with all but the least expensive conventional vehicles. On the other hand, the least expensive conventional vehicles won’t have the zip or luxury features of a Tesla. My conclusion is that, in my own driving situation, assuming that I could get along with a two-seater with limited trunkspace for 20 years (a VERY optimistic assumption, unfortunately), I’d pay about the same when all was said and done, whether I bought a Tesla, a Mercedes, BMW, RX-8, High end Toyota or Nissan, or any of a number of other vehicles. But in buying the Tesla, I’d enjoy exceptional performance and styling for 20 years, and help wean our country away from carbon-based fuel in general and foreign oil in particular.
One of these days, I’ll have time to sit down and spreadsheet a complete cost-of-ownership analysis over several different scenarios. But by then, Tesla may already be marketing its family-friendly sedan or an even more affordable model, rendering the whole exercise moot. In the meantime, I’m thinking that the “premium” someone would pay for a Roadster today is mostly a charge for the performance and luxury, which compares with cars costing several times Tesla’s asking price. Compared with a family ICE sedan, or even other ICE-based two-seaters, you have to make some compromises and carefully run through a cost-of-ownership analysis to economically justify the purchase of a Tesla Roadster — although I’ve satisfied myself that it can be done. But for anyone who is in the market for a serious, high performance sports car, I think there really is no comparison: the economics of the Tesla proposition seem far superior to those of the ICE cars. The environmental responsibility inherent in owning and using a Tesla is icing on the cake — and there are some people in this world who will pay a premium for that alone, making the performance the icing on THEIR cake.
Bill,
As has been pointed out on numerous occasions, the $100,000 Roadster is not meant to “recoup” its price. That’s why they started with a sports car. The comparison is not with a Honda Civic, but with a vehicle that can do 0-60 in 4 sec, like a Lamborghini or Carrera 911, cars that cost far more. So even though most of us on this site can’t afford the Tesla, we aren’t the target market. The Roadster actually brings the high performance sports car’s price down to the $400,000/yr car enthusiast.
After reading Charlie’s 2:55pm post, the immortal words of Emily Litella are most appropriate: ‘Never mind….’ The Toshiba announcement is certainly great news. It resolves the issue of road-trip distance issues (as in LA to ‘Vegas is more than 250 actual miles) and the where to plug-in problem I was wondering about earlier.
I think Bill DeMichieli misses the point… Tesla is starting high-end with the goal of accelerated amortization of the R&D to allow economical mass market delivery of the technology. $100k for a car (ICE or electric) that has the acceleration and reported handling that the Tesla will deliver is not that bad. Oh- and for those fans of all things ‘1970’s’- Tesla owners will be driving while ICE vehicle owners are still waiting in line for gas… on your assigned day,
So now that Toshiba has seem to solved the quick-charge issue, a bigger problem looms: After visiting the Stop-n-Jolt to fill-up my Tesla with electrons… and get my 48oz SuperSoda…. where do I put the soda? Looking at the interior photos, I noticed no cup-holders.
It’s always something!
# Robert Goudreau wrote on October 6th, 2006 at 10:21 pm
# I am speculating that the white star sedan will be built in Canada via a joint venture between Tesla Motors and Feel Good Cars, Feel Good Cars also as a sedan in it’s future,Feel Good Cars will sell it’s sedan in Canada and Europe and Tesla Motors will sell it’s White star sedan in the U.S. .The white star will use the EESTOR ultra capacitor,How is that for a speculation!
OK - I will speculate too:
It will use the same motor and controller electronics as the Roadster. The motor will be in back, but the battery pack will live in the front hood area. The batteries will be very similar to what they have in the Roadster as well.
Seats 4 (or maybe 5 with 3 across in the back if they are really thin).
Weight: 3200lbs
Height: 53″
Length: 170″
Width: 70″
0-60=5.8
Range per charge=200miles
I am going to guess that it ends up looking rather European.
Here are some models that might offer some styling similarities:
www.alfaromeo.com/ALFAROMEO_COM/uploads/1006/1073788109/20050721/KVB_159_com.gif
www.alfaromeo.com/ALFAROMEO_COM/uploads/PB_MODEL/0/20031205/GT_KV.jpg
www.alfaromeo.com/ALFAROMEO_COM/uploads/1030/1073893492/20031209/GT_intro1_big.jpg
www.citroen.com/NR/rdonlyres/11C978B1-C0CB-4912-9036-3628DA92B28C/61518/1.jpg
www.citroen.com/NR/rdonlyres/2061613D-733A-4D81-B65A-B906ED6F0B08/67136/32_480.jpg
cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2006/10/honda_civic_typer_sedan_1.jpg
I am going to guess that Tesla still doesn’t want to get in the game of making brakes, steering columns, ABS systems, glass, etc, so they might do another manufacturing partnership basing the “White Star” off of another production design but with redesigned body work. I would bet the big guys like Toyota, GM, Ford and Daimler-Chrysler would have little interest in getting involved now.
Another Lotus like “niche” player could be a candidate.
If Tesla managed a major deal maybe they could even work with BMW (who already makes cars in the USA), Porsche or even Ferrari.
Other possibilities: Panoz, Fiat/Lancia/Maserati, TVR, Suzuki
I am going to go out on a limb and guess BMW as a partner. Ferrari or Porsche would be cool, but I don’t think they would be interested. Ferrari, BMW and Porsche all see California as a specialty market that is partial to their brands. BMW has a design center in Palo Alto, makes cars in the USA and has just enough “small company” mentality left that they might actually do something brash like work with Tesla. (You can see some evidence in the way that they re-launched the mini-cooper).
Porsche does have a design consulting branch, but I don’t think they offer Porsche chassis components as part of the deal…
Bill, you are not buying a car to save money on gas. You would be buying a performance vehicle that goes 0-60 in four seconds flat.
The fact that it uses no gas is frosting on the cake ;o)
Is there enough leg, shoulder and head room to seat a six foot five inch driver and can he put his golf clubs in the trunk?
—-
Editor’s Answer: Take a look at the dimensions section in the tech spec. A full set of golf clubs plus the bag will fit in the trunk - take a look in the FAQ for a picture.
These are some exciting times we live in. Ev’s have much more “potential” (in a voltage sense to hehe) than any other form of transportation currently known. This flexibiltiy is what makes the tesla roadster so exhilarating in my opinion. I mean…your car is already too hot to handle : )! Even small things that often go unnoticed are impressive, electric heat for one. Does this mean I can leave my heat on and forget worrying about falling ZZZzzz and not waking up? I think it does : ). I’m also impressed by how you guys considered and implemented led lighting which offers buyers long life alongside high efficiency. Haha, i still can’t believe I’d only need to purchase windshield washer fluid to maintain “this” car. Wow!!! I don’t know what to say, I’m speechless….. … . …….. I proudly stand behind Martin “and” Elon Musk.
Some more interesting links:
paultan.org/topics/cars/china/
(More on booming Chinese car manufacturing industry).
Deals with Proton, Chery and (maybe) DCX are interesting.
Proton Perdana is an interesting sedan:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_Perdana
Proton has ties to Lotus as well:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_company
“With the acquisition of Lotus technologies in 1996 from Bugatti, Proton has gained an additional source of engineering and automotive expertise.”
I was looking up info on the Miles XS200 and saw what appears to be a possibility that the Miles XS200 is based on an old Toyota Echo platform.
Miles plans to buy cars from TianJin QingYuan Electric Vehicle Company
If I go to there site and watch the various flash photos I see an unnamed model which looks just like a Toyota Echo along with their known existing models.
Compare their site:
www.qyev.com/english/shouyenew.asp
to the Toyota echo:
www.edmunds.com/media/seo/500/2005.toyota.echo.jpg
The “veiled” car at the Milesautomotive site has a profile that could be echo as well:
www.milesautomotive.com/images/home_car_xs200.jpg
Recent “spy photo” of new BMW 7 series prototype:
www.autoexpress.co.uk/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_417/car_photo_208566_7.jpg
The “White Star” should probably fit somewhere inbetween that and the Mazda 6:
www.edmunds.com/media/2002/paris/mazda/03.mazda.6.mps.f34.500.jpg
(The 7 series is probably too big and heavy, wheras the Mazda 6 isn’t quite upscale enough, but both have great styling for a sedan)
Maybe it needs more Tesla family resemblance? :
TEG.NET/TESLA/NotWhiteStar.jpg
BSS,
If you are a $400,000/yr car enthusiast you can probably afford anything you want….cars or boats.
Mark,
I can buy a car that will do that for alot less than $100,000…..and it will go alot further than 250 miles before I have to stop for 2 or 3 hours.
Hope “White Star” design isn’t like TEG posts of Alfa, Citroen , Honda-boring.Maybe car body will be alum., by Superform Co. of Riverside, CA.-light but cheaper than carbon fiber? It’ll be real interesting what Tesla has planned to build the car, seeing as they’ll need some high volume, sooner or later.
Not that far from Riverside is the Carroll Shelby plant in Las Vegas-could be tax advantages there, close to Calif. market-but “not exactly high volume”. Wonder where he gets his components? Only real U.S. small volume car makers I know are Panoz & Shelby. Tesla roadster costs so much Tesla can afford to JV with Lotus-could they afford this with cheaper White Star car? If Shelby & Panoz could build their own operation from scratch, Tesla should be able to-bet that’s what they’ll do. Should be some kind of pool of automaking experience in this country to be tapped.
# Atir wrote on October 5th, 2006 at 11:52 am:
# I had a look at some other presentations from ZEV Symposium.
# One thing I dont understand. Chris Guzy states in his presentation
# that fuel cell vehicle tank to wheel efficiency is “high” =greater than 50%
# and that a battery EV efficiency is “medium-high”, result of comparison
# between technologies being “fuel cell is the best”. On the other hand,
# Martin in his presentation states fuel cell is only 40% efficient, less than
# half of efficiency of electric… I don’t get it.
Atir, you are right to be confused. I attended the ZEZ symposium and went to the podium after Mr. Guzy’s talk to ask if he really did mean to say that a fuel cell was more efficient from tank to wheels than a BEV is from battery to wheels, and if so, to please quantify that comparison. All I got for an answer was “Yes”. In my view this is fool cell misinformation of one form or another. At least Tom Gage had the opportunity in his later talk to point out that this was misinformation and to give the true facts.
Idea for a Tesla plant, in a temperate climate area (somewhere in Calif.,a little back off the coast sounds nice- Gov. Arnie would approve): white translucent fabric structure architecture: goes up fast, easy to expand, long span, would create nice diffuse working light, minimizing artifical light-and would have appropriate happening Tesla-like ambience (office/ customer visit area could be colored fabric). “Cool Factory Option”: perhaps make an 8′-10′ high earth berm to define the plant perimeter (sink plant floor a little in ground, use earth for berm, probably would help moderate temperatures at working level)-with the diffuse light , berm could be landscaped inside and out. Employee lounge/cafe/whatever could be in the berm-facing both ways: nice ambience.Yes- an uncommonly fine place to build a likewise car (let some students at U.C.B. design it as a project,they probably need something interesting to do).
P.S. above- I guess you could give it to Stanford Arch. students, if you insist. I’m sure they’d do a great job.Yes, they have what it takes over there alright- but they DON’T have the axe, and won’t for at least the next 5 yrs. -say what (!?)
This is a great looking car and I congratulate you (and as we say out here in the wide brown land) ‘on having a go’. The world needs more adventurous thinkers to put there money where their mouths are. A couple of questions: Are you thinking of producing a larger vehicle in the future ie. one with four seats? and is it possible to use the energy lost in braking to generate some of the power needed to run the car? Cheers and good luck on this excellent venture. Bruce Kneale
I’ve been browsing through the Department of Energy material from last year’s DEER Conference (couldn’t sleep:)
www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2005/session6/2005_deer_fairbanks2.pdf
Take a look at slide 27 for the Diesel Engine (Light Truck or Passenger Vehicle)
Strap an engine to a test bed and you can get a Brake Thermal Efficiency of 41 - 42%. Put it into a car and, as the slide shows, you can only get about 33% of the fuel energy to do anything useful! That’s for diesel. Petrol/Gasoline cars are worse (typical BTE of around 30%).
Any form of internal combustion results in a lot of wasted energy. The guys at DEER know this and so are looking at ways of reclaiming all the waste heat (look at slides 26 and 16!)
Obviously the same is true for any form of electricity generation which relies on the combustion of some form of fuel but the larger the scale, the better the efficiency.
I’d love to know the efficiency of creating Hydrogen from Coal. Not that it matters much. The car giants are still waiting for an in-car Fuel Cell which can work reliably at 50% efficiency.
I’ve done a few quick sums with the Tesla and would appreciate corrections/ comments.
Electric Charger efficiency 92%
Lithium-ion batteries are 93%.
Inverters are 93% (? not sure about this one)
AC induction motors are 90% (average) and
Assuming a lousy 75% for the transmission still leaves 53%.
Ok some of this would be taken by the in-car accessories but it’s no wonder the mpg equivalent is so high. Better energy use than a diesel.
Nice one!
I love the direction that your heading to solve the environmental crises we are in. Also I believe that electric cars could increase the security of our nation. Oil is always a contributing factor to our conflicts with foreign nations and anytime we can eliminate a factor the safer it will be for Americans. However, don’t forget the middle class. I have been in the military fo 10 years and I don’t even make $40,000. With the rising gas prices electric would definatelly be the way for me. It doesn’t seem right to make a car that only the rich can afford (the same people that can afford higher gas prices) its seems to be another case to keep the rich richer and keep the poor poorer. I really enjoy the look of your car. All other companies have made something so small or ugly that no one would want to buy them. This is America and we take pride in what we drive, the look of the vehicle is very important. Yes I know electric is a relitivelly new idea but we don’t need a car or truck (are any plans in the work for one of these?) that looks like it came from outter space. Testla keep up the good work. If anyone can make an electric car that the average person will want and need, you can do it.
Just got my first glimpse of your vehicle on the Today Show….looks unbelievable and electric performance unmatched, nice job. I still have one resounding question about electric vehicles. With all of the technology being utilized and more available why can’t a vehicle of this type charge itself while running? It seems that under certain conditions, such as highway driving ,a charging system could be engaged without too much loss of performance and increasing the mileage capabilty dramatically.
Hi.
I found a very interesting short 4 page PDF Government paper which compares the life cycle CO2 emissions of different electricity generation systems currently used in the UK, including fossil-fuelled and ‘low carbon’ (renewable). Although this report is UK specific the vast majority of information is still relevant to the US. www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/postpn268.pdf
If anyone is interested there are also 4 page reports on
Low Carbon Private Vehicles www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/postpn255.pdf
Carbon Capture and Storage www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/postpn238.pdf
and Cleaner Coal www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/postpn253.pdf
I would suggest that Tesla try and locate the factory that will produce the white star near a fast flowing river (but off the flood plane of course) as run in river hydro currently has the lowest carbon foot print of any electricity generation technology.
Looks great, But I think you should redesign the front end. I’ hooked. If I had a spare hundred grand I would order one in a minute.
Thanks, and great work,
Bob Clifton
Great car and a much needed one of this type. Price still puts it out of the Daily Driver people. It does show
that an $100,000 Econobox can be cool, Bless you and thanks and Keep On Truchin, uj
Bravo for taking on the world…and the automobile industry. Thank you, thank you, thank you! I have always said if we could put a man on the moon, ten years after the challenge to do so, we can make a vehicle that does not run on fossil fuel in less that the 60 years that we have been talking about it.
Here’s my issue…since the only way this is going to make an impact on the greenhouse affect is if we get the pollution thing in check sooner, rather than later (when we pass the point of no return). When do you speculate mass producation and at a price that the masses can afford them?
If you build them (cheap enough), we will come.
Thanks again. You are my hero!
Your Car is awsome!! Whats held me back from one of these has been the looks and range.
You have beat the odds!! Now the car has the looks/ peformance / and range. I was in the market for a new ZO6 Vette but have changed my mind since now I can have it all and it’s only a few ticks slower than the vette!! KUDOS!!
Larry A Read
T.J., as a Texan I have to step up and defend my state just a little. Texas is a large state with a large and growing population, and we don’t have the hydro-power resources of Canada or the geothermal resources of California. We do have wind, and Texas recently surpassed California to become the biggest producer of wind energy. I also have high hopes for solar power in the future — the economics and technology isn’t quite there yet for solar to start displacing coal or natural gas on a large scale, but I believe it’s coming.
Any chance of going public, or will Tesla stay privately owned?
I was on this website this morning reading about the crash test results and all of a sudden the Tesla was on the Today Show!
It was a great feature segment and great exposure to the general public, too bad there was a break down of the car during the test drive.
Philip Buck
Roatan Honduras
www.RoatanLiving.com
# Charlie wrote on October 7th, 2006 at 2:55 pm
# Here is Toshiba’s Li-Ion fast charge announcemment.
=====
# Sean McCann wrote on October 8th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
# After reading Charlie’s 2:55pm post, the immortal words of Emily Litella are most
# appropriate: ‘Never mind….’ The Toshiba announcement is certainly great news.
# It resolves the issue …
=====
Not so fast! The Toshiba announcement is now 1.5 years old, and I haven’t seen any more recent news about the development since — at Toshiba’s website or anywhere else. How real is this thing? I would like to think that Toshiba wouldn’t announce something they weren’t sure they could bring to market soon, but you never know.
Even if real and shipping tomorrow, Toshiba’s battery only exacerbates the quick-charge problem, because you need a HUGE electron-hose to fill a “tank” as large as a Tesla Roadster’s in just a few minutes. The current battery pack holds more electrical energy than my entire household consumes in TWO full days. You would have to tap into the neighborhood main with special equipment to draw that much juice safely in just a few minutes.
It’s important to have an energy storage system that can take energy as fast as you can feed it, which can be filled to any arbitrary level without “memory” problems of other undesirable effects, which will last for the expected life of the vehicle, and not deteriorate significantly after the number of charges expected during that period. The Toshiba battery might help achieve that goal. Still, fast-charging will continue to be limited by infrastructure for some years to come, imho.
Until fast-charge stations are ubiquitous, a key metric would be the number of miles expected per minute of charging from the average wall outlet, because this will tell you how long you must wait, in case of a depleted battery, to recharge sufficiently to get where you are going (presumably, a place where you can leave your car to charge for an extended period).
I went to NBC’s website, and they have streaming video of the Tesla segment shown today: nicely done!
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12065856/
Click the headline (about midway down on 10/9): “Hit the road with this electric car.”
How far did you and Natalie drive in the Roadster before it broke? I loved the shots of the disassembled car, by the way. Today practically gave you a TV commercial.
Thank goodness for Tesla! I am a third generation car dealer than couldn’t be more disillusioned by the manufacuturers’ unwillingness to move forward with electric vehicle technology. Hydrogen sounds good, but comparing it to electric really makes me wonder what the manufacturers are up to–electric is a no-brainer according to the Tesla data I’m reading. I am hopeful that if the Tesla Roadster is a huge success that a company with the ability to produce these cars cheap (so everyone can afford them) takes notice and gets on board. Perhaps that company is a big automaker, or perhaps Tesla will find a way to do it. Either way, I’m going to wait for an Explorer-size version that costs under $40,000. Hmmm…you know what would make the perfect car? Tesla’s electric technolgy and GM’s drive-by-wire technology in one, super vehicle! Could it work?
Wanna see the Roadster?
In San Francisco:
The Tech Museum isn’t changing its catchy color scheme, but it is adding some green inside the building with a permanent exhibit opening today focusing on renewable energy.
The hands-on exhibit is the first permanent addition to the Tech since Peter Friess took over as CEO this spring. To celebrate, the museum will have some real examples that show the long history of alternative energy: an electric car created by Walter Baker in 1898 and its 21st century descendant, the Tesla Roadster, the hot new sports car that runs on lithium-ion batteries.
In LA
www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/09/21/022582.html
The Today Show featured Tesla Motors today.
Today Show Video – MSNBC.com
Hit the road with this electric car [Tesla Motors]
October 9, 2006
http://video.msn.com/
No mention of air conditioning. I guess its a good thin its a convertible?
—-
Editor’s Answer: You can find out everything you need to know by looking at the tech spec. Air conditioning is listed.
I’ve seen a lot on this blog about batteries and their development. I was wondering, is there a “learning curve” for batteries as there is with so many other technologies (you know, a Moore’s Law kind of thing). I imagine if there is that your team has researched it extensively. I know that this is a blog and not a question and answer page but I think a lot of bloggers, and potential buyers, would be interested in seeing some sort of learning curve since they are helpful in predicting a timeline for future cost and capabilities.
A correction to the post from “vfx” above:
The Tech Museum is in San Jose (not San Francisco).
And the “Green by Design” exhibit opened in September (not today).
www.thetech.org/
I’ve been spending some on the Internet researching lithium batteries and have found that a lot of people and manufactures are doing amazing things. Here are my highlights.
www.everspring.com Best price I’ve found
www.lithiumpower.com 50% higher capacity
web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2006/virus-battery.html High density, research only
web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2006/batteries-0208.html nanotube ultra capacitor, research only
web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2006/battery-hybrid.html rapid charge-discharge, low cost, research only
www.polyplus.com extreme high density approaching energy density of gasoline, long life
Wants to license technology to battery manufacturer
Bill DeMichieli suggested Altairnano and they seem to have the most advanced solution of all.
www.altairnano.com Long life >9000 cycles, very high density, charge in few minutes
To: Steve Casner who wrote “that fuel cell vehicle tank to wheel efficiency is “medium to high = greater than 50%. Yes, they are indeed
trying to fool the public into buying the outdated fuel cell technology which was invented in 1839 before the electric car. The reason
General Motors stopped the EV1 was because the car was too good, too efficient like 165 miles per gallion and the oil companies
did not want to lose money. So they told General Motors to come up with something that was less efficient like the internal combustion
engine. Well folks, the electric fuel cell car is it. Yes, it uses hydrogen and oxygen to make electricity but this means that they are
carriers of electricity and not sources. Therefore, in many cases they do not get much better miles per gallon than than a turbo diesel
will. Further, the cost of a fuel cell electric will be out of this world because the car is so complex and performance is so poor. Be very
glad that Telsa came out when it did or we would have all been fooled. Electricty is the fuel of the future not hydrogen which will create
more polution than it will save!
I just wanted to a moment praise everyone at Tesla motors for such a revolutionary and extraordinary advancement in transportation. In a time when American motor companies are floundering for patrons, after exhausting every conceivable adaptation of the outdated piece of 19th century technology, commonly known as internal combustion, the folks at Tesla motors, with the advent of the Tesla roadster, have introduced the much needed and highly anticipated leap in automotive technology. Thank you for once again restoring my confidence in American ingenuity. Good luck with your roadster, and I eagerly await more affordable products from your company.
To Roy Harvie:
I like the research on batteries. The thing that’s frustrating is that all of the technologies highlighted either are research or not what they seem at first glance.
For instance Altairnano’s own web page shows on a graph in their news section under a presentation named “Dr Evens House ZEV presentation,” where the energy density is less than half what standard Lith-ion batteries are. The title of the slide is, “Nano-structured electrodes provide advantages.”
I’m not knocking Altair, it’s a great battery, but in the roadster you’d have to have over double the weight batteries to get the same range. It would be great in that you could charge faster and it would last longer, but it would cost substantially more and you’d have to add weight to the car, and space, and the more weight, would require more batteries too.
In the battery blog on here Tesla explained the difference between energy density and power density. I think that shows the reason well why they didn’t go with Altair, not saying they shouldn’t when they get more room, like in the White Star.
I could have read the slide wrong, I’m not sure, but I think that’s what that means. Even so, if you had 800 lbs of altair, without the cooling system, it seems like you could go 100 miles for range, which is a down, but you’d be able to recharge either at home or fast at a charging station maybe.
I’d prefer the 100 miles I think.
Everyone should see the NBC Today video. It really is a great piece. Very flattering and lovingly put together. I know a lot of the people like cameramen, editors and other behind the scenes folk in the film and television world that are fans of the Tesla. I’m guessing that’s where all the cool shots and music came from. Not to mention Natalie’s ride had her screaming like a little girl!
Brett, Thanks for the clarification. I should have said “area”. When I lived in Novato I told everyone across the country I was in SF.
So if the exhibit started in Sep. does that mean there is a Tesla sitting there? Unlikely.
e
# Malcolm Wilson wrote on October 9th, 2006 at 5:10 am
# I’ve done a few quick sums with the Tesla and would appreciate corrections/ comments.
# Electric Charger efficiency 92%
# Lithium-ion batteries are 93%.
# Inverters are 93% (? not sure about this one)
# AC induction motors are 90% (average) and
# Assuming a lousy 75% for the transmission still leaves 53%.
Some other stats for you:
Solar panels can convert roughly 15% of the solar energy that hits them into electricity.
A good inverter can convert that DC solar power to fixed voltage AC with about 95% efficiency.
It is a little sad that the grid tied solar panels have to convert Solar panel DC to AC then back to DC again to charge the car. I guess that is the price to pay to get consistent output (from the grid as needed) since the solar panel’s output voltage and current varies depending on sunlight and temperature, but most car charging systems expect a fixed voltage and minimum current level.
# James Anderson Merritt wrote on October 9th, 2006 at 12:10 pm
# … Toshiba’s Li-Ion fast charge announcemment. …
# Toshiba’s battery only exacerbates the quick-charge problem, because you need a HUGE
# electron-hose to fill a “tank” as large as a Tesla Roadster’s in just a few minutes.
# It’s important to have an energy storage system that can take energy as fast as you can feed it.
That is why we need a mammoth UPS at every house that does EV charging.
If you had a 100kWh fast-charge Li-Ion or Ultracap shed at your house it could serve a number of purposes:
* Provide battery backup for household power in times of grid blackout.
* Provide that “fat electron-hose” to fast charge the car when you want to transfer the power.
* Maybe even collect up power at low night-time TOU rates, then push it back into the grid during the day during peak demand (buy low, sell high). [I am not sure they would allow this but it would seem to be beneficial as the power companies have to build generating capacity based on the worst case peak demand, and “flattening the overall use curve” should help them save money and keep your neighbors A/C working on hot days.]
# Bruce Kneale wrote on October 8th, 2006 at 11:33 pm
# Are you thinking of producing a larger vehicle in the future ie. one with four seats?
Yes, they are - planned intro around 2009.
# and is it possible to use the energy lost in braking to generate some of the power needed to run the car?
Yes, they do have “regen braking” already, as does any good electric car.
# Mark Herzog wrote on October 9th, 2006 at 6:35 am
# With all of the technology being utilized and more available why can’t a vehicle of this type charge itself while running?
# It seems that under certain conditions, such as highway driving ,a charging system could be engaged without too much loss of performance and increasing the mileage capabilty dramatically.
The regen braking helps when slowing down or coasting down a hill.
Otherwise you are talking about some kind of perpetual motion machine which just won’t work.
RE .Tony comment above- I don’t really mean to bash Texas-a lot good about it, I hear Austin is a great place-then there’s companies like Texas Instruments and EEStor Co.- and The Dixie Chicks.However “Houston, we (do ) have a problem”: Haliburton, Brown & Root, Enron, Tom Delay and more-which all fit in to “the don’t mess with Texas” credo. I say do mess with this part of Texas , but when it comes to the auto world “Don’t mess with Tesla!”
Dear Martin,
I saw the NBC segment on your car this morning. When I saw the effect the car had on reporter Natalie Morales — becoming giddy with excitement while riding and then later driving your car — I nearly wrote a check that minute!
But seriously, your car looked great!
My needs are more on the practical transportation side–I’ll be watching for those follow on models…
Best wishes,
Jeff
Just saw on news where Tesla investor Google bought “You Tube” for $1.65 billion-so in future will have more money to invest in good things like Tesla. However “You Tube” is another amazing case of huge money in ” entertaining the rest of the chimps”- basically whole site looks to be junk, online equivalent of “The Blair Witch Project”. Combined with a whole lot of what’s on regular T.V. & cable, it’s a sad commentary on our culture. Too many chimps in this country entertained by absolute junk.
today the high end sports cars then the daily driver the technolgy for more fuel efficent cars has existed for years but not implemented i hope that the tesla and others like it sink the pork bellies in the auto industry who have; with the oil industry polluted our enviroment, created monsters in the middle east, and have lied to the world to grow thier agendas and wealth. GOOD LUCK TESLA thank you for your courage and inovation. and the corolla interview was pretty good
# T.J. wrote on October 9th, 2006 at 6:12 pm
# However “Houston, we (do ) have a problem”: Haliburton, Brown & Root, Enron, Tom Delay and more
Don’t forget San Antonio: Clear Channel, SBC, etc.
# T.J. wrote on October 9th, 2006 at 7:01 pm
# Just saw on news where Google bought “You Tube” for $1.65 billion
news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060929/wr_nm/media_youtube_dc_4
www.blogmaverick.com/2006/09/17/the-coming-dramatic-decline-of-youtube/
# TEG wrote on October 9th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
# … we need a mammoth UPS at every house that does EV charging.
# If you had a 100kWh fast-charge Li-Ion or Ultracap shed at your house
# it could serve a number of purposes:
…
# * Provide that “fat electron-hose” to fast charge the car …
===
I agree with your general point; I can well imagine how a household Energy Storage System could provide a great many benefits, both to the householder and to society in general. But as to the “fat electron hose,” let’s face up to some facts:
1. At present, the Tesla ESS neither charges nor discharges at anywhere near the rate required for a “five minute fill-up.” In fact, it roughly discharges at the fastest available rate of charging: You can get 2-3 hours of hard driving out of the Roadster before depleting the battery, and it takes a like amount of time for Tesla’s own home quick-charge unit to fill ‘er up again.
2. At 110 volts, my calculations indicate that you need approximately 112 amps to be able to deliver one mile’s worth of “juice” into the battery in one minute (206 Wh, taking 86% battery efficiency into account). At 220 volts, you need only around 56 amps, but either way, that’s a lot more current than the average household wiring can handle, and a very dangerous electric connection. Even so, it will still take you 250 minutes (over four hours) to recharge the ESS at that rate! I’m thinking that the home quick-charge unit probably moves electrons about as fast as is safe in a domestic setting, considering thermal problems, the risk of electric shock, etc.
3. So now, for the “fat electron hose.” To charge a fully-drained Tesla ESS in five minutes, you would need around 2800 amps at 220V, 280 amps at 2200V, 28 amps at 22000V, and so forth. To analogize: this is less like a fat hose, and more like an open water main. Standard 12-gauge wire is rated for 20 amp home circuits. The lower the voltage of the transfer, the thicker the cable (the more strands of 12-gauge or thicker wire) you will need. On the other hand, the higher the voltage, the more likely electricity will be to arc from the connectors. I don’t know about you, but I’d be a little worried about using a mere cable to connect my home ESS to my Tesla’s ESS for a five-minute quick-charge. To me, some direct-connection docking procedure would seem safer and less potentially troublesome. I wonder how much juice Tesla’s own quick-charge cable and connector is rated to move.
My point is that charging much faster than “a mile a minute” can quickly become daunting on several levels, even if you can tap directly into the utility company’s power line, or are able to maintain a high-capacity electric reservoir at home. Just out of curiosity, I wonder if Tesla subjects its own wall-charging and fast-charging hookups to usage and safety tests that are anywhere near as rigorous as those for the prototype vehicles.
TEG wrote on October 9th, 2006 at 5:02 pm
#A good inverter can convert that DC solar power to fixed voltage AC with about 95% efficiency.
#It is a little sad that the grid tied solar panels have to convert Solar panel DC to AC then back to DC #again to charge the car. I guess that is the price to pay to get consistent output (from the grid as #needed) since the solar panel’s output voltage and current varies depending on sunlight and #temperature, but most car charging systems expect a fixed voltage and minimum current level.
Thanks for the stats on Inverters. I agree with your comment about an apparently unnecessary step of DC to AC in a solar house-bound Inverter followed by AC to DC in the Tesla, but i think that’s inevitable given the need to use the portable charger away from home. A couple of 95% efficient conversions still gives 90% overall as opposed to having both DC and AC inlets on the Tesla (ugh!) or designing some sort of (even more) intelligent single power connector to do both.
As I understand it, Teslas Solar Option (are they using panels from Nanosolar?) connects solar panels to the power grid, not the car to provide an overall net energy gain to the system. Storing solar generated electricty in your home would require a large battery storage system in order to deliver the required charging current - apparently reconditioned Submarine batteries are a good choice for this, but you need lots of room! Also you would get another efficiency hit; getting slightly less energy out of these batteries than you put in. Plus any high current carrying cables need to be as thick as possible and as short as possible - which is tricky.
Correction to my previous statement. Altairnano has very high cycle life but LOWER power density. www.PolyPlus.com seems to be the most advanced but is still in development, they are working on batteies that are long life and 1000 to 4000 Wh/kg!
High efficiency 50% to 75% solar panels will be available in the next year or two, see www.rosestreetlabs.com click on RSL Energy.
I love the look and the idea behind the car only thing that gets me is the price. The only one who will be able to afford it is the upper class which is fine but the majority of cars owned are the middle and lower income people so the number of cars on the road that are electric are going to be few…. The maintenance on the Telsa doesn’t seem to be addressed here and that can mount up into big bucks with an electric motor,batteries and the labor . Not everyone is going to be able to work on it. Well I want go on but I do like the car just wished it was more of a car for the real people out there that can really make the difference in the environment not just the few who will not show much of an empact. Great start and looking forward to seeing what new and better ideas come from Telsa….
Thanks Thex
Would like investor information on Tesla Motors
Just a thought - couldn’t you put the batteries inside the car’s frame? I assume its some sort of box-section, and I read that you are using tons of small batteries… seems like a good way to lower the centre of mass.
A further extension to this would be to partner with the battery producer to co-produce a car frame which is itself a battery. In other words the battery cells are integrated into the structure of the frame itself. This would seem to be a nice way to also reduce total weight a bit.
I guess the maintenance issue would be bad - replace the frame instead of a box of batteries. Might be worth it anyway?
yea, i’ve been in a 30mph collision, it goes so incredibly fast, i was in the passenger seat. one second i was looking at 20 feet of road and then next i was looking through a smashed windshield at the crumpled up hood of the car and the tailgate of a pickup truck.
hooray for seatbelts!
What type of Lithium Ion batteries is the Tesla Roadster using?
# Malcolm Wilson wrote on October 10th, 2006 at 12:57 am
#
# Teslas Solar Option … are they using panels from Nanosolar?
I don’t think it has been announced yet.
Looking at the SolarCity site I see they have bought a few solar intsaller operations (including “Palo Alto Solar”).
My guess is that SolarCity is something of a “holding company” that will buy or partner with existing solar installers to get going quickly. It might be a while before the Nanosolar products are ready for consumer installations, so I would guess that they start off with conventional silicon cells for a while. They have pictures of silicon based panels on their site.
To Thex:
They have service centers for the Tesla in the areas that they’re selling them. There is no maintenance on the motor. There’s no need to change oil or belts or any of that. Brakes and tires are just like the every day car and can be done anywhere.
The car is for rich people, that’s true, and alone it won’t change the world. What I do see the roadster changing is the worlds perception of what an electric car is. Most people when they hear ‘electric,’ think slow, boxy, ugly and inconvenient. The Tesla roadster puts that lie to rest. Electric cars can be fast, sleek, beautiful cars that knock the most hard core car buffs socks off.
Tesla is in the design phase of their 1st sedan, it’s code named Whitestar. We don’t know a lot about it, just that it’s about 50k, which is still expensive, but closer, and that it’ll have room for 4 or 5. The reason no good electric cars are 20k is that the batteries are still too expensive. We’re all crossing our fingers for some of the recent lab breakthroughs to reach the highways.
Been looking for the major auto rags to mention the Roadster. Considering the specs this car makes it seems like they are slighting the Tesla. Even if they plan a full spread in 2007 at the car’s actual release, they might give it a paragraph now… something.
This says October but looks like this was written 3 months ago. (says 50 cars sold -not 170)
www.caranddriver.com/carnews/11543/2008-tesla-roadster.html
Yesterday I was in a big newstand with a huge selection of auto magazines from the US and the UK. Lot’s of ink spent on incredible sports cars. Someday there will be one or more mags dedicated to Electric sports cars.
e
Found your page and info after reading up in Wired Magazine… I did look it over some time ago as it was referecned on a Lotus Cars email list. I’m sure you consider it much more, but for the moment to me, you’ve got a lovely electric Elise!
The web site I list is my hobby site dedicated to Lotus Sevens - (add lightness, make a compnent perform multiple functions — all Chapmanisms you’re obviously familiar with rolled into one).
My company, a graphic design firm is found at www.ciesaonline.com.
Well done!
Cheers,
John Donohoe
While it is difficult to fault other electric vehicle attempts, some are just not feasible due to low maximum speed or as in this example, weather limitations. How does something like this pass crash testing?
autoshow.autos.msn.com/autoshow/Paris2006/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=1016181>1=8592
Looks beautiful and reads great on paper. I think maybe you are being a bit hypocritical by offering leather seats. Everything else is so hip, why spoil it with that anachronism?
In response to Iz, that car is limited to 30mph, so is considered a NEV (Neighborhood Electric Vehicle). It’s exempt from crash testing because of the low speed limit.
I am dissapointed at the large number of negative and stupid comments. Tesla Motors is doing a fabulous job and going about it in the right way. You cannot market a cheap car for the masses without a huge budget and the big automakers do not seem to be interested. I cannot afford a Tesla Roadster either but I encourage all those rich people (who are not stupid - how’d they get rich if they were stupid) to buy this car and make it possible that one day I may be able to buy a cheap version. Squirling batteries throught the frame would be a nightmare for future upgrades. Batteries are improving rapidly and when the first set wear out the new ones may be different size/shape and will have much longer life and range. When you can drive all day on one charge (this will come) then who cares if it takes 8 hours to recharge while you are sleeping? No hybrid/fuel cell required, keep it all electric!
Andre, thanks for the note on NEV. I would be leery driving one of these even on city streets. In NY, some drivers go 50 MPH in 30 MPH zones. Getting hit by a vehicle going 50 MPH will do great damage to the NEV and its occupant(s). I’ll wait for the “White Star”.
Love the Tesla Roadster. Even “White Star” is too pricey for me. Hope sales go through the roof and the timetable is excellerated so that by 2010 I can get the 3rd. Generation EV. With all the battery inovations maybe the “White Star” will be more affordable. Who knows with poly solar cells the whole body could be a collector and better batteries could push the range to that magic 500 miles. I guess I’ll just dream until then.
To Malcolm Powell-please take a look at our site www.elaco.com.au, under Technical-Video, showing fully compliant Formula One Imapct Resistance test.
I am sure we may be able to improve your composite materials used for body panels, front, sides and rear.
We are not manufacturers, but deisgners of lightweight, high impact resistant,cost effective fibre metal laminates composite material solutions.
I would love to receieve your most detailed inquiry. Best regards Dean
I am not a frequent blog user, any help is welcome with “fishy” and “halibut”, no intention to sell anything over internt..Thanks
I like your blog very much
Hope you keep on posting great stuff
regards, jenna
ps - I just randomly picked one of your posts to say this