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From the earliest days of our work developing the Tesla Roadster’s body, we realized we had several major challenges on our hands. We had to achieve a low level of aerodynamic drag to increase efficiency, and we had to keep our mass down in order to maintain a high power-to-weight ratio and achieve maximum acceleration. Equally important was our imperative to create a body style for the Tesla Roadster that made people desperately want the car - irrespective of its efficiency or level of performance.
Formidable Fiber
Carbon fibers are long, thin strands of pure carbon that are strong in tension (that is, when pulled) and are reasonably flexible. The strands are tightly woven in a cloth (such as the one pictured below) and then encapsulated in plastic or resin. The resulting material is lightweight but extremely strong and durable – the perfect skin for the Tesla Roadster.
Selecting the right body material and manufacturing process was crucial to achieving our goal. We ultimately chose carbon fiber, a material you will see in few cars available at the Tesla Roadster’s price point. Each Tesla Roadster that rolls off the production line sports a skin made from lightweight carbon fiber/epoxy composite that took two years of design, prototyping, test, redesign, retest, meetings and arguments to develop.
So what’s so special about carbon fiber?
Carbon fiber is light, right? Well, a pound of carbon fiber weighs exactly the same as a pound of steel; so, no, not really. The advantage carbon fiber has is that it’s very strong for its weight. Therefore, we could use carbon fiber to achieve the same level of strength with less mass. Depending on how it’s processed, for example, a carbon fiber-reinforced plastic part can replace an equivalent steel part using less than 30 percent of the original part’s mass.
Carbon fiber on its own isn’t much use, though. It’s like a very thin fishing line, it is only strong in tension (when you try to break it by pulling it along its length). So, to make a panel that is strong in all directions, carbon fiber is typically woven into cloth (to give it strength in two directions) and then the carbon fiber cloth is encapsulated in plastic. In our case, it is encapsulated in epoxy resin – it has a higher specific strength than the alternatives. The epoxy is strong in compression but relatively weak in tension, so the two materials act together to produce a panel strong in tension and compression.
Carbon fiber parts that you see on some cars, especially aftermarket products, are produced using carbon fiber cloth pre-impregnated with resin (abbreviated to ‘prepreg’) that is heated and pressed against a former in a pressurized oven called an autoclave. The very high temperature and pressure squeeze the air out of the cloth and force the resin to flow around the fiber and create a consolidated molded panel.
This can produce very lightweight and very stiff components, but with a couple of drawbacks. First, the cost of producing the parts is very high because they need a long time to fully cure in the autoclave and the process isn’t cheap. (If you think the Tesla Roadster is expensive now, you should consider how much it would cost if we added several thousand dollars worth of autoclaved carbon panels.) Second, there aren’t many manufacturers with enough autoclave space to produce a whole set of body panels at the rate we need.
The Tesla Roadster
An alternative to using an autoclave is to “vac-bag” the parts. This is a similar and less expensive approach that doesn’t use an autoclave but the drawback is that, as the name suggests, you can only apply atmospheric pressure to the parts (by creating a partial vacuum in a bag that surrounds the mold with prepreg carbon loaded onto it). The pressure isn’t high enough to fully consolidate the resin into the fiber so the final panel’s surface isn’t of a consistently high enough level of quality for a car like the Tesla Roadster.
The process we ultimately adopted for our body panels is Resin Transfer Molding (RTM), which uses what’s called a “closed mold.” Two huge blocks of steel are machined and polished so that when they’re nested together there’s a gap between them of less than 2mm representing the shape of the part we want. We lay carbon fiber mat (and some additional material we discuss in more detail below) against the concave surface of the tool, bring the other half of the tool into place to create the cavity, and then inject resin to fill the gap. This technique allows us to control thickness (which keeps weight down), reduce processing time, and maintain a very good level of surface quality. An additional advantage of using a closed-mold tool is that we can vary the thickness of the part in key areas to integrate features that add strength or provide a location for mounting hinges, etc.
For body panels what we need most is high strength in bending (which is really creating tension on one surface of the part and compression on the other) so that we can make thin, lightweight parts that can withstand the loads seen during a car’s lifetime (car washes, car parking lot contact, aerodynamic loads, etc.). To achieve high specific bending stiffness, we need to get the carbon as close to the surface as possible. So our panels are actually a sandwich made from two layers of carbon separated by a middle layer of glass and polypropylene that presses the carbon against the face of the tool and keeps it close to the surface of the panel. To create a smooth surface ready to paint we spray the inside of the tool with a special paint primer that then adheres to the resin and comes out of the tool on the part.
The underside of the Tesla Roadster’s
carbon fiber rear panel
So, in the end, our carbon fiber body panels are made from a layer of primer, a layer of carbon, a layer of glass, a layer of polypropylene, another layer of glass and another layer of carbon, all encapsulated in epoxy resin and all in a space about as thick as a couple of credit cards. This allowed us to maintain a bending stiffness similar to that of a regular steel body panel and lose about 50 pounds from the weight of the body panels compared to ‘lightweight’ glass fiber composites.
Now it hasn’t been easy to get where we are. The Tesla Motors body engineering team (based in the UK) and I have spent the last two years working hard with the styling studio at Lotus, aerodynamic experts from the UK’s Motor Industry Research Association (MIRA), our body system supplier, and the manufacturing engineering team at Tesla Motors to arrive at a solution that satisfies all of our requirements.
A significant hurdle along the way was encountered when we learned that global supplies of the particular carbon fiber cloth we’d chosen dried up due to demand from aerospace (the new Airbus and Boeing superjumbo planes both make extensive use of carbon fiber) and defense manufacturers. Our supply chain team rose to the occasion, generating so much excitement for the Tesla Motors vision that a new supplier allocated the needed material to us.
It took a good deal of sweat, ingenuity, and persistence on our part, but we finally developed the perfect body material to suit the Tesla Roadster. We’re pleased with the final result, and we think our customers will be too.
Posted in the categories: Performance, First Post, Vehicle Engineering, British
Would it be possible that the Tesla could at some point become mass produced and if so will you be offering dealer franchises?
Anyone have any idea what the cost difference is between the carbon fiber that Tesla is using and standard steel? I wonder how much 50 saved pounds costs… also - is carbon fiber repairable - or is it like aluminum, one dent and you have to replave the panel?
That is impressive… funny, i never really thought about the roadster’s body materials, but i definitely like what i hear.
Informative on the uses of carbon fibre., and specifically how its used for the body of the Tesla. Thank You.
Great Post!
I hate to go off topic, but does Tesla have any official position on the studies that some are coming out with that question adequacy of the world Lithium Supply for EVs?
Another informative narrative. Thanks! I appreciate how those who write the blogs take the time to give us a little history of the process, share some of the hurdles, and explain how they were overcome! One of the most telling statements in the blog is in regards to the supply of the carbon fiber cloth: “generating so much excitement for the Tesla Motors vision that a new supplier allocated the needed material to us.” You’ve got to love a company that has an exciting enough product that they can inspire ‘buy in’ by a supplier!
Thank you Barrie. A fascinating read.
It will be very interesting to see how these composite manufacturing methods can be developed in the next couple of years. Anything you can patent yet? There would be applications in structural work for small aircraft and marinecraft manufacturers. There’s Tesla Energy Now; how about Tesla RTM Now? (I nearly suggested Tes-la-minate Now, that’s probably the worst use of the Tesla name ever!)
Do you anticipate that your next-gen RTM technology will be appropriate for the much higher component count and lower costs required for White Star? Or will it be back to pressing steel?
I hope you guys got some patents on that panel technology!
You are probably the only car company that keeps the potential clients up to date on the processes behind the production of the cars you make, proving over and over that Tesla Motors is unique. Thanks much for the articles!
Very informative, thank you! Actually, I hoped for some time that you would disclose bits of information about the body of the car. In combination with the battery pack and motor, it is one of the key features of the Tesla to get the performance figures. For the next model (sedan like), is Tesla also planning the use of this material and construction process? I assume that this way of manufacturing is and will remain much more expensive than current steel or aluminium chassis and body works. Are there indications that scale-up and manufacturing breakthroughs are on their way to cut the price levels of these body parts?
Great post! It’s nice to be able to get a better understanding of how the roadster is put together and what you folks at Tesla have considered in the building of this extraordinary vehicle. Do you plan to use the same technology in the Whitestar? Are those panels produced here in the US?
Will carbon fiber be used in sports sedan? Heard it probably won’t be. I think announced preferred sports sedan plant location of Pittsburg, Calif. is a great choice-pick of the litter. Just read where Daimler is maybe looking to split off from Chrysler. Where’s E.L. Cord when you need him?-he could turn Chrysler around by doing 2 things: assembling the most happening design dept. on the planet and being the first major auto company to build nothing but hybrids and EV’s. That’s exactly what he’d do. Just announced also: Al Gore’s “Live Earth” all-star rock concert 24 hr. event in July-from all continents, including Antarctica (ticket sales in March, free for penguins). This is gonna be great.
So, just out of curiosity, would the process used for Roadster body panels be suitable to produce body armor, or vehicle armor plating? The panels sound as if they are fairly sturdy, as well as flexible.
On the other hand, if we confirmed battlefield applications of this material on this blog, the remaining supply of carbon fiber cloth might “dry up.” I’d rather be using the material in vehicles that would reduce our dependence on oil (foreign or otherwise), and so our need to make war in places such as the Middle East, than as military armor once our dependence on fossil fuels has driven us into the battlefield.
How does the cost of this process compare to steal and the “more expensive” autoclave technique? I’m curious if it would be prohibitive for a more modestly priced car.
Great concept! I graduated with a degree in vehicle design and though I have gone on to study other fields, it’s great to see that real innovation is happening. If I had a hundred grand laying around I would certainly line up for one, but….yeah anyway. Maybe an aluminum or steal design of lower performance can be an option for the future… but keep it up!
The studio photos used everywhere else on the site don’t look nearly as good as the ones of the car out in the world. You should spread them around so the people who don’t read the blog can still enjoy them
-Ryan
From U.S. Energy Information Administration: Top five states in terms of highest energy consumption per capita: Alaska,Wyoming,Louisiana, North Dakota, Texas. Bottom five states: Rhode Island, New York, Calif., Ariz., Mass. - considering the big populations of Louisiana & Texas, these states are worthy of an “F’” in global de-warming 101. New York & Calif. deserve an “A” (graded on a curve at least).
Another good, informative post. Thanks.
Amory Lovins’ stuff about hypercars and carbon fibers is very informative. I especially liked the part about how carbon is more expensive than steel by itself, but since you lose weight, you can downsize the engine, have less metal-bending machines, save factory space, have more rapid prototyping, etc.. And that in the end it can be more affordable than it might first look in isolation.
Anyone know why kevlar carbon fiber mesh wasn’t chosen? I believe it’s stronger than pure carbon fiber? Does anyone know if the combination kevlar-carbonfiber is lighter in weight in comparison to pure carbon fiber?
Barrie, have you seen Fiberforge’s technology, is it for real or vaporware or what?
www.fiberforge.com/PAGES/what.html
Having only scanned thru the blog I am interested you are considering steel. I can only imagine the investment alone would prohibit this route. I am sure the correct combination of “high tech” materials along with some lesser expensive substructure could produce the desired cost reduction. Detailed (confidential) information would have to be known about the current design and process being used or proposed based on the program timing. With these details a cost comparison could be completed accessing varied designs along with production, quality, and durability. With this comparison a sound business decision could be made. Although I am not a technical expert in exterior body structures, I could do such a study.
By the way the car looks cool, I am somewhat turned off by the lithium ion batteries only due to what I believe would be a substantial cost. Many years back I worked on electric powered vehicles, however they used production bodies with retrofitted electronics.
I spend several years working in the composites business and this is one of the better descriptions of the various manufacturing options that I’ve seen. One of the big advantages of the technique you’ve chosen is the reduction of finishing work required for the parts. Creating a primer that is also the release agent is a major step in repeatable quality. The other, as you mentioned in passing, is speed. Having worked with both autoclaving and vacuum systems, the days and sometimes months required to produce c-in-e have restricted its use to low volume manufacturing.
You’ve done a really nice job of taking a very complex engineering exercise and distilling it for the lamen. I was able to read and feel I understood what you went through, even though I’ve never read a single thing about carbon fiber or any other vehicle “skinning.” As a matter of fact, I’ve never cared an ounce about cars before I found out about this one, and I’m a regular reader of this blog.
Unfortunately, I too am at the point where I’m mostly interested in the world’s Li supply and how it impacts what Tesla Motors is trying to do. I keep hoping that the next blog will address this. I will wait patiently, but wanted to re-iterate that I, too, am interested.
Thanks again for the cloth blog. It was definitely intertesting!
Kevmo
Comparison of standard automotive sheetmetal, “light weight” glass fiber and tesla carbon fiber composites:
In a pdf factfile I have on the EV1 they claim that their body panels weigh 90 pound, 50 pounds lighter than steel. So: 90+50 = 140 pounds, 90 / 140 = about 0.65, so the panels weigh 65% of the steel ones.
“Depending on how it’s processed, for example, a carbon fiber-reinforced plastic part can replace an equivalent steel part using less than 30 percent of the original part’s mass”
So carbon fiber composites weigh about 30% compared to steel. In the case of the EV1: 0.3 x 140 = 40 pounds.
So for the EV1:
Steel: 140 pounds
Glass fiber: 90 pounds
Carbon fiber: 40 pounds
“This allowed us to maintain a bending stiffness similar to that of a regular steel body panel and lose about 50 pounds from the weight of the body panels compared to ‘lightweight’ glass fiber composites”
(Difference glass-carbon is indeed 50 pounds!)
As you can see the numbers work out quite well. So the EV1 and the Tesla roadster are comparable when it comes to the amount/surface of body panels, so the above numbers give us a good idea of the weight savings for the roadster.
Difference carbon fiber - steel is a 100 pounds, which is nice, but doesn’t sound like a huge saving to me…it’s nice, but for the added cost? Wondering what will be used for the whitestar sedan, seems like a lot of work went in to the development of the carbon fiber panels, so not using the technology on the sedan would be a waste money/time/research, wouldn’t it?
Is it possible to have a “clear primer” and clear “paint” to show the carbon fiber? Or does that create other problems …
If you want to know more about resins, various fibers and impregnation technologies you can look at both the aerospace and marine industries.
The first use of vacuum bag impregnation of resins that I am familair with was for some cabon / kevlar fiber high end off shore power boats. The key here was getting a low weight. I wouldn’t be surprised if aerospace beat the marine industry on this, but I thought that Jensen had patents on this technology at least for marine use.
Resins are a big deal. Epoxy resins typically have an advantage over Vinylester resins. For example AME 5000 is considered a premium epoxy resin used in high quality tournament ski boats. Resin has a large impact on the resiliency of the finished product, so it is not just the fibers. Resin is also most of the weight. This is why vacuum backing or using another way to force only the exact amount of resin necessary is critical to light weight. With more typically resin coating techniques there is a lot of variability in the weight of the end product.
There are lots of environmental issues with the release of Styrene when using resins. In boat manufacturing where typical application of resin is by a spray gun over fiberglass cloth that is rollered to get the resin in and the air out, or by gun roving (chopper gun) which spits out strands of fiberglass and resin together, there are very high Styrene emissions. Vacuum bagging and this RTM technology that Tesla is using should be significantly better in controlling emissions.
The fibers also come in numerous configurations. What Tesla is using lookes like a Bi-axial fabric. For fiberglass there is also Tri-axial fabric available which is even stronger. I’m not sure if it is in production in carbon fiber, or is prohibitively priced, but it would allow for an even lighter end product (depending on the number of layers used).
As long as Tesla is not using the body panels for structural support they really don’t need kevlar. Carbon fiber is very strong. Adding Kevlar would add strength, but it would cost more and add weight. The use of kevlar in marine and aerospace applications is important due to the amount of flexing involved. Boat hulls are a substantial amount of the structure of a boat. Hulls and wings are continually flexing and a substantial load. The continuous flexing of these structures will eventually break carbon fiber down. However, for a car that is not constantly bouncing off walls kevlar would just add weight and additional cost. Unless you need a bullet proof car, there really is no point.
To Joe Rajakaruna: Carbon has a higher tensile strength than Kevlar and therefor parts made from Kevlar/Carbon hybrid cloth will be heavier at any given strength. The advantage of Kevlar and hybrid cloths lies in the fact that they have a much higher impact resistance and resistance to tearing. Kevlar can dissipate high stress concentrations much more efficiently and will therefor not break or shatter suddenly like Carbon fiber (hence its ‘bullet-proofiness’).
Body panels don’t serve any structural purpose and so they don’t need any of these qualities. They have to be light and rigid, not tough (actually, maybe the bumpers could use some Kevlar). Weight is key and that makes Carbon the clear winner.
Is the material recyclable?
Please show us a picture of the White star. Any sketch or rough draft will do. I am dying of anticipation
I shot a video of my ride in the Roadster at the Tesla Debut Event.
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6886362354013029791&q=tesla+ride&hl=en
Details about the video are on the Tesla Motos Club site:
teslamotorsclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,316.0.html
e
In response to Kevin Sheller
Lithium is a fairly common element. It’s the 31st most common on Earth. It’s usually found in igneous rocks and brine. It’s true there has been a price increase because of supply having trouble keeping up with demand, but that is not because the supply does not exist. Someone just has to extract it. Expect Chile, Argentina, and China to pick up the slack and prices will go back down. I wouldn’t lose too much sleep over this.
# T.J. wrote on February 15th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
## I think announced preferred sports sedan plant location of Pittsburg, Calif. is a great choice-pick of the litter.
Where was this announcement?
I still see news stories published today saything that a final decision hasn’t been made.
For some reason this story says that Tesla is located in San Bruno (not San Carlos):
www.azcentral.com/business/articles/0216biz-electric0216.html
To answer some of the composites questions, kevlar has a lower strength to weight ratio and stiffness to weight ratio than carbon. However, kevlar is better than carbon at absorbing energy, and is why it is used in armor. Carbon/kevlar cloth is very expensive. If using more than 1 pair of layers it is possible to alternate, as in K-C-K or C-K-K-C.
Regarding the lithium supply, don’t worry, Tesla would have to produce more than 100 times (according to my guesstimate) the current rate to be a noticable fraction of just the cell phone battery supply. By the time that happens there will probably be new battery technology.
Another indication of why we need a big initiative into solar power: Accordng to “American Chronicle” website a 1000 MW coal plant burns a 110 railcar trainload per day (10,000 tonnes of coal). U.S. burns about a billion tonnes of coal per year-representing a train long enough to circle the earth 4 times at the equator. According to “U.S. Energy Information Administration” website, coal plants represent 43% of U.S. power=260,990 megawatts in 2005, which equals a 28,709 car “trainload” or 2,609,900 tonnes of coal- which released over 1.9 billion metric tons of co2 into air in 2005, not to mention mercury & particulates causing asthma & other health problems. Charles Dickens could relate, all these years later. Burning fossil fuels worldwide in 2006 produced about 30 billion tons of co2-which is about 1% of all the co2 in the entire earth’s atmosphere. Of course some was absorbed, but no wonder the planet has produced more co2 than it can absorb out of the atmosphere for the past 150 years.
I like the Pittsburg, Calif. sports sedan plant location: close to HQ, the climate should be good, weatherwise & otherwise.Yeah-and I can fly to S.F. or Oakland in about an hour in ‘09 , pick up my car from the plant and drive home. But I won’t be flying Jet Blue-11 hours stuck on the ground in a snowstorm-who runs that company anyway!?-Very un-Teslalike (”Tesla Air” wouldn’t put up with this). Another American business in the grips of typical “modern de-evolutionary non-function syndrome”. Seems to me that in decades past no one “in authority” would be that dumb. Not one “higher up” at Jet Blue said to themselves “get the people off the halibutin’ planes-like now, perhaps!?”. These guys are a hazard to everything in the air-yes, birds too! -Robert Stack wouldn’t put up with this.
THis is off topic, but does anyone know anything about residential hydro electric generation? I have a free flowing stream on my property that would probably have enough water flow to generate alot of electricity.
I have never before cared a lick about cars, and yet I am so excited about your product and the ones to come that I read your blog regularly!
I am very impressed by the brainpower and market savvy you have brought together in this company. Couple that with a product which should sell itself, you are set to go. Throw in that “something special” which you are developing, and you should compete well when electric cars and plug in hybrids become mainstream and the Big 3 auto companies try to underprice you in the marketplace.
That said, I know you have all watched “Who Killed the Electric Car” and I know you know about the high levels of corporate and political corruption which have reared their heads in recent years. Those factors, big oil and auto money, and co-opted politicians are your only threat.
Do you have anyone working full-time investigating the lies and “thinktanks” they will create to diminish your product? I think that your website and full disclosure of methods and problems is your best defense against them, but they are smart and they control most of the money in the world, as well as the media. I’m usually not one to spread negative energy, but aside from creating a superior product (which you are doing) the best road to success is consumer knowledge and public education about the lengths to which big money will go to preserve their cache.
You have harnessed the power of the internet, good job. What else can you do to make this a “grass roots” car company, and get information directly to the people. What can you do to protect the world lithium supply from “drying up” or the world carbon fiber supply from being put into a giant Big 3 warehouse which you cannot touch, or suppliers who no longer want to talk?
I’m certainly not trying to generate conspiracy controversy before the fact, I just respect the power of your competitors. Your product threatens world economic monopolies as they exist today, and that is no small thing. Nothing pleased me more than to hear Elon Musk in an interview state that being “bought out” by a larger corporation was not an option for Tesla.
I am not anti-industry, I am simply for environmental stewardship and handing down to my children a sustainable world. Tesla represents to me the coming age of corporate responsibility, integrity, sustainability and stewardship. Now that is exciting!
Best of luck to your company and your product. Looking forward to owning a WhiteStar in 2010. (all this talk about electric trucks, why don’t the harness the power and money of pro-environment moms with a mini-van in 2012?)
Christina
Doug Curtis
Don’t know about the situation in the States, but this is a useful overview of mini-hydro in the UK.
www.british-hydro.org/mini-hydro/index.asp
Christina
Good points. I’m sure someone in some apparently independent (but really auto or oil-funded) company will try various tactics to discredit Tesla’s technology. It’ll be the usual questioning of the reliability/safety of the battery pack and/or control electronics and/or electric motor. All out of a “deep concern for the public”.
Yeah right!
Personally, I’m waiting for the “EV Motor creates electro-magnetic radiation” scare-story:-
www.who.int/peh-emf/about/WhatisEMF/en/index3.html
Big deal. So does my hair dryer.
Hopefully, Tesla have this one documented and covered and won’t be forced into doing something pointless like depositing a coating of metal on the inside of the carbon fiber engine bay.
> Do you have anyone working full-time investigating the lies and “thinktanks” they will create to diminish your product?
I think they are taking this head on. Notice the last blog on green washing?
But I am already seeing things that look like subtle digs. This month’s Car and Driver talks about the GM Volt concept and makes a comment about Li batteries and over heating, and then talked about Tesla having an air-conditioning just for the battery. I’ve always had respect for Car and Driver as a company that bites the hand that feeds it, but I also sense that they are entrenched in the industry which feeds them.
I am hoping that Tesla’s Roadster will be tested by Car and Driver when it is in production, and I’m hoping it blows their socks off.
TEG- Tesla plant news is in Tesla media section-San Jose Mercury News article-says plant location is down to Pittsburg or Albuquerque.
I think that the name for the car should be the Tesla Nadagascar.
Mark wrote on February 16th, 2007 at 10:57 am
>The fibers also come in numerous configurations. What Tesla is using lookes like a Bi-axial fabric.
Mark - the picture of the carbon fiber above did not come from Tesla… it’s from Wikipedia.
Another interesting and worthwhile update. Thank you for your hard work and attention to every detail. I really look forwar to seeing one of these on the streets soon enough. I was attending the Chicago Auto Show and stopped by the ZAP guys there, let me just say that they have some real competition coming to them. Keep up the good work and Good Luck
Doug
Check out a magazine called Home Power. They have run several articles on installing your own microhydro electrical generator and would be a good resource for you.
-James
Strange energy fact re. Canada: per capita energy usage in btu’s (2003): Canada-428, U.S.- 340, Russia -203 , France-187, Germany-173 , U.K.-166, Italy-139 (from U.S. Energy Info. Admin.). Covering 9% of Nev. with parabolic mirror solar trough systems would power the whole U.S. If the Fed. govt. got with it re. rooftop solar promotion/incentives , could cut that figure way down. The federal govt. controls 86% of the land in Nev., so “plenty of great sites still available-at no cost to taxpayers”.
Re: Cost of producing commercial lithium
If history is anything to go by I don’t think we have to worry about running out of lithium.
Aluminium was discovered and named by Sir Humphry Davy in 1808
Even though it is the planet’s third most common metal, its initial price was on a par with gold and platinum and a bar of this “new precious metal” was put on display at the Paris exhibition in 1855
In 1886 two scientists - one American the other French - working separately developed the extraction techniques still used today and the price plummeted.
My bet is the same will happed for lithium.
Please produce a serial PHEV to accompany your magnificent EV. Thousands of us are weary of waiting on the others. Offer it as flex fuel or clean burn diesel.
Surely you can imagine the overwhelming appeal of a fast car that can be driven about the city on EV alone and driven from LA to Miami in the summer without cooking or having to do anymore than stop at a regular filling station periodically.
Many thanks!
—
Editor’s comment: Check out our recent blog, Hybrids, Plug-ins or Otherwise.
I once had a Pontiac Transport with a plastic body. The best things I liked about it was that it didn’t rust and it was flexible enough to withstand a fair sized dent and spring back. I had two parking lot accidents (one turning too sharply around a post which brought the vehicle to a halt as it dug into the lower side panel). In both cases afterward I did not have any repairs, just had to polish out the scratches!! I believe Pontiac droped the body because they didn’t make enough money in repairs. Anyway I wonder how flexible the Tesla body is and if it is equally resistant to damage. Although the panels might be expensive, over the long term the owner could save.
Great and informative blog Barrie, thanks.
In a previous blog someone asked about Zebra batteries and I did some research. Zebra batteries are a Sodium Nickel Chloride The promise is that the materials are abundant and cheap. I know that Zebra is going after the car market, but the only data I have is for utility load leveling. In this application size and weight are not an important factor. A 20kw battery costs about $25000 and is about 300 litres and weighs aout 150kg. The price is high because right now the batteries are hand made and include fancy electronics for charge balancing and temperature control. Oh yea, they have to be maintained at 300°C to operate. Would you like to be caught in an accident with a huge battery filled full of molten Sodium Nickle Chloride? Safety concerns and low power density are the prime reasons car manufacturers have avoided this technology in the past.
Does anyone know if the regeneration assembly can be geared to produce more charging current? Also, the use of the in board drive motor will reduce the effects of unsprung weight upon each wheel. Thus increase the handling effects. So, then why are other car manufacturer’s using in wheel drive assemblies if they will increase the unsprung weight?
Any update on the Tesla Sedan Concept?
TEG wrote on February 18th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Update on Obvio (resold through ZAP) as a Tesla competitor…
Some preliminary specs were published on the Obvio 012e:
www.obvio.ind.br/obviona/012.htm
================================================================
Range 200 – 240 miles without charge
Acceleration 0 to 60 less than 4.5 secs with 200HP’s and two-speed transmission system
Top Speed 120 mph
Charge rate 30 minutes for 20 – 50 miles
Full Charge 2 hrs (fast), 5 hrs (normal)
Electric Propulsion
Drive system 120 kW, 220 Nm, 13,000 rpm
Regenerative braking
Innovative Lead Cobalt Battery made with Lead-Foam grids by Apollo Energy Systems, Inc.
Charger Onboard, plug in anywhere - up to 20 kW
Vehicle to grid (V2G) Bi-directional grid interface
Instrumentation:
Analog Cluster Speedometer, ammeter, battery state of charge
Multi-Function Display Energy use, efficiency, charge control functions,
Cell-level voltage, temperature and V2G control
Targeted price 012E will be US$59,000 - available in the last quarter of 2009.
================================================================
ZAP had pre-announced the 012E, but mentioned Li-Ion batteries, not Lead-Cobalt.
www.zapworld.com/ZAPWorld.aspx?id=388
Apollo Lead-Cobalt battery info here:
www.electricauto.com/
www.electricauto.com/batt_prog.html
www.electricauto.com/hist_comp_01.html
From www.zapworld.com/ZAPWorld.aspx?id=512
“Apollo has also patented a Tri-Polar Lead-Cobalt battery to be used with the Apollo Fuel Cell. The battery is made with Lead-Foam electrodes making it lighter than ordinary lead-acid batteries with a higher voltage as well as greater energy and power density. Three patents are pending on the new battery, which Apollo says would replace such advanced battery technologies as nickel-metal-hydride and lithium-ion in many applications for approximately 20 percent of the cost.”
T.J. wrote on February 17th, 2007 at 1:28 am
“”I like the Pittsburg, Calif. sports sedan plant location: close to HQ, the climate should be good, weatherwise & otherwise.Yeah-and I can fly to S.F. or Oakland in about an hour in ‘09 , pick up my car from the plant and drive home. But I won’t be flying Jet Blue-11 hours stuck on the ground in a snowstorm-who runs that company anyway!?-Very un-Teslalike (”Tesla Air” wouldn’t put up with this). Another American business in the grips of typical “modern de-evolutionary non-function syndrome”. Seems to me that in decades past no one “in authority” would be that dumb. Not one “higher up” at Jet Blue said to themselves “get the people off the halibutin’ planes-like now, perhaps!?”. These guys are a hazard to everything in the air-yes, birds too! -Robert Stack wouldn’t put up with this.”"
I like the pittsburg, Ca idea as well. It would only be about a half hour drive from where I live in concord. But I also like the idea of having the available resouces, including brain power and automotive manufacturing experience, to build the best car possible. If pittsburg has that, then wonderful.
Regarding Doug Curtis’s question.
Try www.homepower.com.
They produce a very informative and relatively easy to understand magazine about producing your own electricity from all the RE sources, i.e. wind, solar and hydro.
I have subscribed to it for few years now even thought I live in the UK and its an US publication.
The Apollo battery looks pretty good, from a cost-performance point of view. I’m wondering what the longevity of the battery might be (I didn’t see that discussion on the cited webpages, but perhaps missed it). If you could spend $3000-4000 on a Roadster-class battery pack that would last for around 10 years, that would be reasonable — any cheaper or longer-lasting would be gravy.
At very least, these seem like reasonable batteries for the home accumulator applications that have been mentioned from time to time on this blog.
To Doug Curtis,
A friend of a friend used to work for the company below. I don’t know anything else about them, and so have no information or personal recommendations pro or con. They apparently sold quite a few units in the Santa Cruz mountains area because the power goes out so often there when it rains.
www.gaiam.com/retail/2/HydroPower
We don’t have any sort of stream at all, so our research is focusing on using solar to pre-heat water for the hot water heater and solar generated power. Our goals are to replace a significant amount of our propane gas usage with electricity, to go predominately off grid regarding our electricity supply and to minimize the PG&E power outage issues with a battery backup system that provides the minimum amount needed to survive until we have sufficient sun to generate power.
Regards,
Laurel Cockcroft
Finally a picture of the Roadster in some half-way decent lighting so we can actually SEE the car! The photos on the web site halibut with a dark car and black background and virtually NO LIGHTING. Are you so ashamed of how the car looks that you have to show it in the dark? Did some artsy-fartsy marketing moron think that photographing it in the dark made it look mysterious and sexy? The picture in the article is a lot better with contrasting background colors and at least some light (but still on an overcast day). How about some pictures in the bright light of a sunny day, or at least with some spotlights turned on indoors, to show its sexy lines and bright future?
And the winner is …. Albuquerque NM. Surprised they don’t have a big splashy on this site yet. Go Tesla Go.
When I saw Roadster EP1 (Engineering-prototype 1), I was a little concerned about the way the hinges looked on the front hood. It looked as if the carbon fiber had rubbed off and the hood was held on just by translucent epoxy. (These are the little “arms” that connect the hood to the swivel mounts on the body). Has the carbon fiber technology you used changed since what you did for the first prototypes? Is there still risk that a part which has regular rubbing can wear down and scrape away the carbon fiber outer layer?
Barry says: The carbon wasn’t worn away, it was never there! The hood frame (which holds the painted hood panels and forms the ‘swan neck’ part of the hinge mechanism) on EP1 was a very early prototype. It took a few attempts to get the process right, and the very first parts exhibited some movement of the carbon in the tool during processing that left small patches where the resin contains no carbon. From what we learned on those early parts, we’ve revised the design of the frame to make it easier to manufacture and the issue has been resolved.
I think steel tends to be uniformly strong in all directions, but the carbon fiber technology has “weak points” if there is stress that doesn’t take advantage of the tensional strength of the carbon fibers. Has Tesla been doing computer simulations of body stress to see if there are any areas that have to have another axis of strength added that isn’t already handled by the two way mesh?
Barry says: Just because the carbon is oriented in only two directions doesn’t mean it’s weak in all other directions. These ‘off-axis’ forces are shared between fibers in both directions, which means the panels are almost as strong off-axis as in the direction of the fibers. The Tesla Roadster panels have been through rigorous tests and have performed extremely well.
Of all the technology Tesla has developed for the roadster, it seems to me that the carbon fiber body is actually one of the higher risks items. I suspect most people would think the motor controller, batteries, or motor itself are the real breakthroughs, but in a way the carbon fiber body is more experimental on a production car.
In the Februrary 2004 Automobile magazine, Jerry Seinfeld wrote an article about the Porsche Carrera GT called “Exclusive Comedian Road Test”
www.automobilemag.com/toc/0402_toc/
During the review he said something to the effect of “the metal bodied Carrera GT doesn’t suffer from the carbon fiber melting problem of another un-named supercar” (presumably the Mclaren F1).
Now the Mclaren F1 has a monster V12 that probably creates huge amounts of heat from all the gasoline it burns, so perhaps the Tesla Roadster isn’t in danger of a similar problem. (I think the F1 has a gold plated engine compartment to keep as much heat from reaching the body as possible).
Another person told me that carbon fiber is a bad material for an EV because it is conductive and flammable. Apparently some carbon fiber bodied EV race car shorted batteries to the body and went up in flames. The Tesla roadster seems to have the batteries and electric motor in sealed, self contained components, so there is probably little danger of high voltage going through the body of the roadster.
Is there a release date set for the Tesla Store?
—
Editor’s response: I don’t have a specific date to share, but we are definitely making progress on it.
T.J. said
> Covering 9% of Nev. with parabolic mirror solar trough systems
Wow! That’s about 10,000 sq miles of parabolic mirrors or enough to nearly cover the entire state of MA.
That would be quite an engineering project!
I noticed that KOBTV is reporting that the new factory will be in Albuquerque, next to the Tempur-Pedic mattress factory. Also see the press release from Tesla Motors. If any of you can find the building site on Google Maps, post it. Also, what is that humongous network of empty roads to the northwest? It’s just west of Rio Rancho, and the empty development looks bigger than Albuquerque itself!
I guess it is official: Tesla will build its factory in New Mexico. Tesla staff, correct me if I’m wrong.
www.greencarcongress.com/2007/02/tesla_motors_to.html#more
Michael Crichton was on PBS Charlie Rose Show arguing that climate change can’t be predicted with certainty, so to him, right now, it’s not as big a problem as people think it is. But melting glaciers & tundra & goofy weather & etc. around the world isn’t a prediction. If it’s true that co2 has been accumulating in the atmosphere for 150 years, it’s a big problem. He’s waiting for “verification”- as in: he’s waiting for it to become a bigger problem. He says it would cost $558 trillion to stop global warming and that that money should be spent on fighting disease, poverty, etc. That’s what they said about the Apollo moon program: “look at all the problems on earth-we should solve them first before going to the moon” -yeah, right. If the earth was mostly powered by green energy it would also eliminate some of the health issues he cares about-like mercury & particulate pollution. Trillions spent to stop global warming would also employ a lot of people. Once green power is up and running (particularly PV solar) then people & businesses around the world will have a lot more money to spend, as their power bills go way down. This could recoup, over time, those trillions of dollars. The depth of the habitable atmosphere for people is less than 30,000 feet-5.7 miles. You could drive that on the freeway in less than 6 minutes.It didn’t take much to create holes in the ozone layer. With all the co2 we’ve put into the atmosphere-and more on the way from China ,India, Russia and ? - I ‘d rather shoot first on green energy and ask questions later. Crichton wants “more data”,he’s apparently concerned about the cost. I think green powering the planet will not only pay for itself, it will pay back more money, over time, and on an ongoing basis-once the initial costs are paid for and it’s up and running.
Energy Blog has an article reporting that Bill Richardson, the governor of New Mexico, announced that the White Star production facility will be in Albuquerque. Build it fast, were waiting anxiously!
www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/02/19/ccview19.xml
“Within five years, solar power will be cheap enough to compete with carbon-generated electricity, even in Britain, Scandinavia or upper Siberia. In a decade, the cost may have fallen so dramatically that solar cells could undercut oil, gas, coal and nuclear power by up to half. Technology is leaping ahead of a stale political debate about fossil fuels.”
Assuming that to be true, that is excellent news for Tesla Motors, not to mention the rest of the world! I hope the optimism turns out to be correct.
Thanks TEG, for the Apollo Energy Systems links. Their scientific staff and historic track record are very impressive. They also project fantastic performance for a “SILVER VOLT II” concept: Top Speed 100 mph, 0 - 60 mph in 10 seconds, 350 - 400 miles range, 5-minutes refueling time. Obvios’ claimed specs are equally bold.
In stark contrast, Apollo’s designs for “SILVER VOLT II” and “MARS III” are out-of-this-world to say the least, reminiscent of the 1956 movie en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Planet. While it’s not entirely inconceivable that a 1950 “retro look” turns hip in 2008, Anisio Campos’ “femininely sensual” Obvio www.obvio.ind.br/obviona/design.htm surely is the exact opposite stream. I wonder whether any of these two extremes can attract 21st century buyers.
Where are the RTM panels currently being produced and is Tesla producing the panels in-house or is there a tier 1 supplier involved?
Neil, Roswell is only 200 miles from Albuquerque. Enough for the WhiteStar to get the alien technology, charge up and get back to the plant
It’s about time SOMEONE got this country moving away from its oil addiction! Way to go!!!
I can’t say any more than godspeed and good luck. Maybe someday when Tesla is a household name, I’ll be an owner of one!
PS - Can yall do something about the automobile dealership laws? Car companies need to clean up their act by distancing themselves from the stereotypical ‘Oil-can Harry’ salesman. I see new car ads on TV that look like they were produced by PT Barnum. You’re a breath of fresh air so why not also help by fixing the silly way cars are sold? (I’m allowed to wish
Thanks to all of your responses about hydro power. When I buy a white star, I can probably completely power it off the grid. Keep the info coming, please.
I hope the NM location offers opportunities to set up a solar power farm to reimburse “the grid” for the power to be used by the Roadsters and Whitestars. How big a plot of earth would they need for the first few years of production, I wonder?
I also read recently, that Ocean Power Technologies (www.oceanpowertechnologies.com/) has received Scottish grant money to test their latest., 150kW PowerBuoy wave-power generator, and has applied for a permit to set up a 50MW wave power farm off the coast of Oregon. On their website, they say that a 10MW farm would occupy only 30 acres of ocean. My calculations show that the energy fed into the grid from such a farm in a year would offset over 24000 Roadsters (driving an average of 18,000 mi. per year each). If we assume that Whitestar fuel economy is similar, then 30 acres of ocean waves could easily power the first four or five years of Tesla’s combined production. The proposed Oregon farm is 5 times more productive, yet would occupy a square of ocean just 1/2 mi. (9 football field lengths) per side.
As a New Mexican, I couldn’t be prouder! X-prize cup, Spaceport America, Eclipse Aviation and now Tesla Motors! If anyone doubts Bill Richardson’s abilities, take a look at how he turned New Mexico around. Keep up the good work Tesla and expect my resume soon.
It’s too expensive at a 100k per car. Sure the car is green, but it’s obvious it’s not meant for the avg. native New Mexican who are rated as the poorest in the United States. Cheap labor is what brang this company here not bill richardson.
Brandon-I believe Intel is building a plant near Albuq. too. As a former New Mexican (I lived in Albuq. as a kid,two different times, when it was really nice & super “unspoiled”), I too can dig this. It’s a small, manageable city. As for Gov. Bill Richardson-I agree, He’s the next best thing on the environment, energy , tech. & progress to Al Gore. He’d be my choice, minus Gore. Gore/Richardson-that would be a ticket & a half! If Richardson keeps this up, New Mexico might be the first solar powered state-it has the perfect combo of sun, low population and low (I’m guessing) power use. Albuquerque has been mentioned in the news lately as the latest front in the nation for a housing boom, Tesla will help that. Another good thing about Albuq. is that I can also fly there in about an hour & pick up my car at the factory. Perhaps a name for the Whitestar: Tesla Kachina (?)
Well as Tesla is near Tempur-Pedic’s new facility to the west of Albuquerque, NM and Tempur-Pedic has stated that they are setting up in the Westland Business Center near I-40 in this article, www.siteselection.com/ssinsider/bbdeal/bd031117.htm, I guess that this is close to the new home of the Tesla Motors WhiteStar plant
See Google map.
Also checked it out in Google Earth too, I got rather excited by what looked like massive Solar PV arrays nearby until I realized it was just a parking lot. Ah well, the power of wishful thinking
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Roj
Another sports sedan name ?: “Sandia” -after Sandia Mountains at Albuquerque. Seems to me I heard of a car brand named Kachina before (small SUV maybe?), but I can’t place it.
For some nice pictures of the roadster (in full res!) check out:
www.flickr.com/search/?q=tesla+roadster&s=int
after clicking on a foto you can select “see different sizes” on the bottom of the page, the foto in the original size is available there.
About body panels and new technologies.
I have seen and picked up (weighs nothing - ridiculous) a cast magnesium bonnet and FEM (front end module) with a new coating technology called Keronite.
Thixotropic moulding (e.g. www. thixomat.com) is a semi solid moulding technique that allow sheet metal type thickness with extreme levels of accuracy and feature integration.
The Keronite coating allows a painted Mg / Keronite part to past the 2000 hour salt spay test required by auto manufacturers.
I have also heard that the street price in China for Mg (local supply) is less now than Al (imported).
Barrie,
Pop down the road to Cambridge to the Keronite guys for a look. Great stuff!
Mike
Plant location:
See Google map.
In the lower right corner, the sandy area
looks like the spot to me, it’s surface is about 150,000 sq feet
Welcome to Albuquerque! I am delighted that you have decided to locate your factory near my home. I wish you great success. I hope you name a model the joule.
First things first: Go, Tesla, go! I continue to be impressed with the breadth and depth of your vision and planning. You’ve got a lot of people rooting for you!
Secondly, I’ve been following the blogs since last summer and have to agree that the black background / white text is tough on the eyes (sometimes I’ll cut and paste the text into Notepad or Word for readability). Dale’s comment above also resonated with me: The whole atmosphere of the site is very dark, not at all in line with the philosophy and mood of Tesla motors (IMHO).
The picture of the roadster at the top of the article is one of the best I’ve seen also. Great lines and I could feel my eyes relax with the brighter lighting, etc.
The general layout of the site is great, are you considering at least changing to a brighter color scheme?
Mike A: Magnesium would be a great idea, except that it’s highly flammable. I know that’s why they have the coating, but that could crack/break, especially in a major collision. And even a relatively small amount of heat could cause a chain reaction.
Besides, who wants to drive around in a car that’s made of the same stuff that they put in fireworks to make them BURN all nice and bright and pretty?
I wouldn’t consider owning a Tesla vehicle unless it produced a high clearance off road vehicle with a solar cell charger. And when the lithium cells wear out how are they recycled. What is the lifespan of the lithium cells in hoursvers charge cycles? Do you project fuel cell usage? This is a start for the effluent.
I went to school in Las Cruces, NM. EE from there. Nice quiet place. Ideal for alternative energies. I like Bill Richardson a lot. Hope he becomes the next President!! He is running in the primaries. A long shot though.
Regarding the body materials, This is the same problem that Chevy Engineers must have undergone in the early 50’s when developing the first Corvette. Obviously Carbon Fiber did not exist back then.
The real question is: How will these materials perform when Tesla does their “Crash” testing?
Jon
Sorry Robin, but I think that google map location is for a store the sells tempur-pedic products. Here is a Yahoo map that appears to show the Tempur-pedic plant under construction (just opened in January). The Google map shows an empty field at the same location.
Google map
Some more info about carbon fiber technology can be found here:
www.bluebird-electric.net/composites/glass_fibre_reinforced_plastic.htm
It points out that recent developments in nanotechnology have shown ways to improve the strength of carbon fibers. It is interesting how nanotechnology has the potential to help in so many ways related to “green power”. We have nanotech solar panels coming, nanotech ultracaps, and perhaps even nanotech car bodies!
www.nanosolar.com/
www.physorg.com/news10525.html
www.apsci.com/ppi-faq.html
www.apsci.com/ppi-pyro3.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_nanotube
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_nanofiber
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Finally an article about the carbon fiber fenders on the Corvette Z06:
www.compositesworld.com/hpc/issues/2005/November/1087
Heartbroken and SOOOOOOOO bummed… that the state of California couldn’t muster an offer to keep TESLA here. It looks like you got a good deal and it’s still westcoastish!
In a TV interview with Gary Tonjes ot the Albuquerque Economic Development office, he said the plant will be next to the new Tempur-Pedic plant on the west side on Paseo Del Volcan NW and north of I-40.
As before, the Google map is woefully out of date. The Yahoo map has a more recent satellite image that shows a new plant where Google shows an empty field, that must be Tempur-Pedic. The previous Yahoo map I posted at the Tempur-Pedic street address was in a residential area and was on a street that had a different name, so it may have been a map error. Here is a Yahoo view of the correct area with what should be the new Tempur-Pedic plant at the top left of the map (someone who lives in the area can confirm if it is or not).
Map
The interview
From the “All Amped Up” NYT article linked to from the Tesla front page I noticed this comment about WhiteStar (hopefully not abusing fair use by copying this text verbatim
)
“The generously sized sports sedan will feature a lightweight aluminum chassis and body”
Few thoughts/comments
1) Why Aluminium instead of Carbon Fibre like the Roadster or even a, presumably, much cheaper steel body/chassis ?
2) Any downside to a car with an Aluminium body/chassis ? Someone mentioned that aluminium body panels are harder to repair than steel or composite panels in this comment threads.
3) Seems to be a trend, Jaguar and Range Rover are moving from Steel to Aluminium and claim to be able to save several hundred pounds on the curb weight see linky to AutoBlogGreen article below.
www.autobloggreen.com/2007/05/11/land-rover-going-aluminum-for-next-generation-range-rover/
4) Seems somehow appropriate for an electric car as aluminium smelting is, I believe, one of the most electricity intensive industrial processes out there !
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Roj
Ok, these are all great ideas, and great engineering technics fror southern california, What about the real world? What are the effects of for example the Canadian climate? Russia? etc. Great little sports car for a select few in the worlds tropic zones, hey great science for that matter, sadly, these vehicles would not last fifteen minits where I live. Abeit, its a start.
Price of carbon fiber rising dramatically:
www.usatoday.com/money/industries/manufacturing/2007-06-05-carbon-fibers-usat_N.htm
On world’s supply of Lithium: Toxco in Canada has been recycling the Lithium out of Lithium batteries for some time, so we shouldn’t be running out: www.toxco.com/processes.html
Related article:
www.compositesworld.com/ct/issues/2007/June/111657
I am very interested in your car. Alas in England we have a goverment that is encouraging us to go green but with not much options transport wise.
Are you planning a right hand drive UK spec car and when are you likely to open show room here?
Warm Regards,
Darren
I have had experience with a similar composite called SMC from the BUDD Corp. the problem with their product was that our process which involved painting and then baking for cure caused air escapement pops. these pops during our process were impossible to repair using standard approved methods. are you experiencing these same difficulties? The pop is a result of air that was trapped in the composite material during the forming stage that wasn’t released until paint or prime was applied and then baked.
I´m so happy to hear about this kind of technollogy, when do you think is coming to South America?
The Tesla vehicle is very intriguing but I do have a question. Must the Tesla be driven be driven relatively close to home so as to be able to charge it back up? How could one take it on a longer trip without the assurance of being able to recharge it along the way? Is Tesla Motors working on a way to alleviate this problem and thus make the car, “good for the long haul?