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Michael Thwaite is a petrol-head who became a volt-head after seeing “Who Killed the Electric Car?” He’s not sure he’ll ever go back.
As time goes on, I’m surprised by the growing public awareness of the Roadster; when mine arrived last year, it got less attention than my old MINI. This year, I’m up to about 5cpw (comments per week). But this week, I got my first nutter.
“Aww, did you really fall for that electric car nonsense?”
I’ve prepared for this. I’ve spent long late nights in the dark, reading page after page of studies on carbon emission calculations and the realities of lithium production. I’ve watched “Who Killed the Electric Car?” including all the special features.
I’ve done my homework so when the questions came at me, I’d be ready.
We stood face-to-face, the world suddenly silent. People around us faded into a slow-motion peripheral blur. The only noise was a hushed rumble, quieter than tumbleweed rolling through a western town. Fingers twitched as we each readied ourselves to reach for the facts… who would take the next turn?
With a slight lump in my throat I retorted, “Yes. I did.”
Not the most original come back but clearly technically accurate and very apparently true.
He paused for a moment, he clearly had an agenda and it was on its way…
“You know they produce more CO2 than a Prius, right?” he said resolutely.
A killer follow up – technically, he is not entirely wrong; just missing the whole point by a very wide margin.
“Or a lot less if you charge it from anything better than coal, zero if you can find a renewable source. Can you say the same of a Prius?” I asked.
That got him. Ha! He recoiled for just a moment before peppering me with questions.
“How long does it take to charge?”
“About ten seconds each night, I just get out of the car and plug it in.”
“What happens if you go out on a long trip and it runs out of charge?”
“It stops.”
“But what if you need to go further than a couple of hundred miles?”
“Same as when I wanted my old car to do 0-60 in less than four seconds… Rent something.”
Oh no! He tricked me into saying something negative.
I’m not doing very well. So far, all I’ve done is defend my electric. I don’t need to defend it – just look at it, it’s awesome. I can feel the weight of disappointment from Chelsea, Martin, Elon and even Nikola. I need to turn this around, how do I make him want my electric car?
I could take a note from a recent French car company ad – they know who they are. The ad began by reminding us that cars are good to have and followed with a long weary message reminding us that we picked the wrong car. They implied that we must hate the environment and that they can help us change our ways if we buy their future electric dream cars. Thank goodness they’re here for us.
No. I’ve learned that bashing the status quo and telling people they made the wrong choice is foolish. A better approach is to find something that they want and show that they can have it now. This is my trick – my adversary could have it now & I need to create the right picture for him. I imagine a Roadster advertisement where not one mention is made of electricity, or carbon, or the environment. I imagine an ad where we see a happy motorist zooming along a canyon road simply happy that they’re driving a great sports car. Without saying it, we know the big grin on his face is from the secret that he is driving guilt-free – no gas, carbon, smog, etc.
“This is the best sports car I’ve ever owned. The handling is fantastic and it really moves!”
He grins, “Yeah, it looks awesome. I drive a Chevy pickup and I converted it to electric a couple of years ago, I love it.”
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“He grins, “Yeah, it looks awesome. I drive a Chevy pickup and I converted it to electric a couple of years ago, I love it.””
So…you got a duel defending EV against EV owner?
I have much harder time defending Roadster against Porsche 911 owners. Roadster beats those only with green image and with virtually no maintenance. If the person doesn’t care about environment and doesn’t care if he needs to fuel every now and then in gas-station then current generation EV is almost impossible to sell to that kind of person. Too short range and too high price (with necessary battery change after about 50000 miles).
It will change, but sadly that is the fact right now.
Sweet.
Timo… the battery doesn’t need to be changed @ 50,000 miles. It has been engineered to drive well over 100,000 miles with reduced range (
I feel like there’s a part two of this story.
I’m still not entirely sold on the BEV. I currently have moments of range-anxiety while driving my Civic at 30mpg and 350 miles of range. In other words, my lifestyle can’t peacefully co-exist with 200 miles or even less of range. Can the re-charge and battery capacity (and weight and expense) issues be solved? I think they can be, but I’m not sure the timeframe.
All that being said, I do know one thing: Nothing will cause you to question your allegiance to the ICE (internal combustion engine) than a blast in a Tesla Roadster. Putting your foot down, and hearing… nothing but a faint whine and some wind. All the while with your hind-end being firmly thrust into the nicely-bolstered seats of the Tesla, just as it would be in a Ferrari or Porsche – without all the sound and fury.
It’s a wholly novel experience and one that should appeal to any motorsports enthusiast. It’s entirely differentiated from any other sports car on the market, and with a proper set of tires, really no compromise in performance.
Tesla set out to make driving a BEV something cool, nay, something EXHILIRATING. Not just novel, not just odd, not just a badge of how green you are. And all the while, they ensured the range was acceptable for humans with less extraordinary range requirements than my own. When the sedan arrives, I will be hard-pressed not to consider it thoroughly. But mostly for having driven the Roadster and been bitten by the visceral enjoyment that instant-torque delivered. The first TV ad for the Roadster should be much like you describe, Michael. I picture a driver pulling up to the Roadster in some exotic petrol-powered sports car, alone as he approaches the Roadster on a salt flat. He climbs in, skeptical of this new-fangled “toy”. Then he puts his foot down. There is no noise. Only the biggest grin you ever saw. You wouldn’t need an actor, either.
Seneca; at that 50000 miles it has lost 30% of its capacity. If that loss is linear 100000 would be 60%.
That is simply too much for many car owners for car that doesn’t have very large range to start with.
Of course battery tech improves, so maybe next generation batteries would last longer. Not this generation batteries. That is one reason I haven’t seriously considered buying EV yet. I need range that is at least 400 miles, and a battery that can keep that range for some time.
I don’t think you would market the car to the people who ask about battery life and such. It is more of a fashion statement. Rich people who want to appear to care about the enviroment..
Rich people who want to appear to care about the environment? That’s a loaded statement you should have to back up. I know a Tesla owner, and he isn’t rich. Sacrificed quite a bit more than most in his position would have to be at the forefront of a movement he believed in. I don’t think that’s a whole lot different than most Tesla owners.
A Prius is more likely to be owned by someone wanting to appear to care about the environment. Or a hybrid Ford Escape or Ford Fusion. Or a “Smart”Car. All things that do little for the environment besides say something about the owner.
Range anxiety? Doesn’t everybody who drives an ICE keep a wary eye on their gas gauge? Wouldn’t you do the same with the “remaining charge on a ZEV? There are a whole heckuva lot more electrical outlets than there are gas pumps, the only difference being the length of time required to “juice up.” C’mon, people, think of a better excuse not to drive a ZEV.
As for being rich tree-huggers, I just plunked down a hard-earned $5K to secure my place in the production line for the Model S, and will have to sacrifice a lot to own it, but I figure if I don’t embrace this technology now, I will miss my one chance to drive a vehicle I feel good about.
“Same as when I wanted my old car to do 0-60 in less than four seconds… Rent something.”
I LOVED that line!
EVs will help to get rid of two things: Toxins & Terrorists!
I think a lot of these “I can’t own a car that won’t at least go 350 or 400 miles” comments are disingenuous. Do you really drive 7 hours to work and back every day? If so, consider moving closer to work or get a job closer to home.
I own a 1988 Mazda RX-7 convertible, which I love, but it gets 18mpg, and by 180 miles, I have to fill it up again. Clearly the RX-7 was a popular car in its time (it had many of the positive qualities the Roadster has). The short range didn’t stop anyone from buying it.
I have occasional range-anxiety in a car that goes 350 miles between complete fillups.
My job won’t allow me to own a current BEV, no matter how much I’d like to. When an average work day calls for 200 miles, and the extraordinary day calls for 300+, it’s not an excuse, it’s a reality.
But I’ll be watching for the day that delivery systems or battery capacity or both catches up to the realities of how I live and work.
I agree with Pat Steele about range anxiety.
Today I arrived home with not much gasoline in my Honda CRV (with an estimated range around 50 km). Tomorrow morning I will go to drop my children at school then go to a gas station, fill the tank and then drive to work.
Total distance home-school-work-home is around 40 km, not a big problem; but I wish I could leave my car charging in the garage tonight go to sleep and wake up tomorrow morning without any concern about finding a gas station.
Timo, I’m afraid you’ve got the wrong figures, perhaps they were from an anti-EV pro-gasser site?
The type of batteries and battery management used in the Roadster should still have 80% capacity after 500 full charge cycles (and many more partial charge cycles), with 240 mile range that means it should still have 80% capacity at the 120,000 mile mark. At the 100,000 mile mark, it will have lost less than 20%, not the “60%” you estimated.
After 120,000 miles it will be up to the Tesla Roadster owner o decide if a 195 mile range is sufficient, or if they want to update to a newer and probably much longer range battery.
Timo,
The best (and probably only) way to convince a Porche driver is to put him (or her) behind the wheel of a Tesla. Most people get out with the involuntary “Tesla Grin”. Porche drivers have a strange response: They alternate between the “Tesla Grin” and tears because they realize how poorly their prized possession performs in both acceleration and handling in comparison yet it was such a thrill.
Oh yes, additionally, it doesn’t use any oil, produce pollution, and can easily be powered from the sun that hits your roof
The range anxiety concern cracks me up. Every day I leave home with 200 plus miles in my Roadster. In my ICE car I would always be worrying about stopping on the way to work to get gasoline.
Hi, my name is Chamir Garcia I am a high school student in Memorial High School and I am in an Alternative Fuel Academy. Well, I was doing research and found that there is a new battery being developed called Lithium-ion Polymer. This new battery is great, it doesn’t suffer from memory effect and can be shaped in any form or size. It is also not flammable. Most important it lasts longer than the Lithium-ion battery which is the battery used in the Tesla. The only problem is that this battery heats up to about 140 degrees F.
Sorry for your loss.
I see there a few comments about range anxiety that are probably referring to _my_ range anxiety. I need 400 mile range because that is the range I need to get to my sister and my parents home. For “daily commute” I use my feet. In here I can get everywhere I need to get for daily needs by either public transportation (metro, trams, buses), or just by walking. When I use car it is for longer road trips. I could get to one of my friends house with Roadster current range, but not back. I would need to charge there, and for one day fast trip that would be too short time left to charge using ordinary wall socket.
400 or bigger range is really needed as long as there are no charging point infrastructure for EV to make real breakthrough. And that is a “chicken or egg” question, because before we have that breakthrough we wont get that infrastructure. 300 is not enough. Even 400 is not quite enough. For roundabouts smaller range is OK, but for serious use it is not.
Just heard the news….
My condolences to the Friends, Family, & Everyone at Tesla Motors for the loss…
THIS IS THE FUTURE……this is were the human kind should got to and look forward for !! Technology will come for the new batteries. Tesla knew this almost 100 years ago !!! Let’s stop the oil business ! I would buy a Tesla car today if i had the money even if it had 100 miles range !! I drive 60 miles a day ! It cost me 3400 euro a year to fill up my car just to go to work !!!( live in Milan Italy), not including maintenance. I think this is a great deal!
CM; that 70% / 50000 miles is from this site, from “A Bit About Batteries” -blog and from FAQ (more-tab and there FAQs).
That info can be either valid or outdated but ,because Tesla says so about their own batteries, I believe that info.
I am very sorry to hear of the plane crash that killed your people. I have worked at small companies and know how close the teams can be. I hope you pull through this, and wish your company only the best.
Thomas Ban, design engineer
My condolences to those affected by that terrible crash.
I can’t breathe. I live in a big beautiful city and everyone leaves there combustable engine running. I have asthma and now C.O.P.D.. I too saw the movie “who killed the electric car” and am saddend by the powers that be only concerned with keeping a environmentally unfriendly option going…
I don’t have a great education or a lot of money but man would I like to work for this company!
It seems “range anxiety” is one of the biggest concerns. Understandable. I don’t care for standing by the side of the road, either. I routinely face the dreaded “low fuel” light, and it’s either stop on the way home (waah!) or stop on the way to work tomorrow (waah!). I like the idea that when the “low battery” light comes on that I need to “go home” (yeah!) or “get to work” (um…jury’s out), and plug in.
As to ranges involved, what all the electrics have is “good enough for 60-80% of your driving.” Frankly, for any two-car family in America, an electric car is probably a good option. We’ll probably keep our minivan (or similar) for road trips out of the area, but, I’m looking to go electric as soon as the 3rd model rolls off the line. (Sooner, if I win the Lottery.) The problem is for the “soloists” amongst us, who can really only afford a single car. I faced this awhile ago, when I was single and REALLY wanted a convertible…I got a Miata, because I needed a reliable car. I was lucky…there was car that scratched all my itches. For the single guy/gal who’s coveting a Tesla, there may not yet be the “one car that does it all” yet.
I talked to a guy doing EV conversions in the midwest who said there appears to be some efforts for EV people to standardize on the fast-charge electrical connections. I think that’ll go a long ways to making a nationwide network of charge stations a reality.
Chin up, everyone….EVs are coming to town.
I interested in knowing how much it costs to replace the battery in the Tesla roadster after it looses it’s capacity to retain a good charge.
Treas Charow;
Tesla offers replacement pack for $12k. Check http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/Spec_Roadster_US.pdf
Your question is a bit more interesting than just cost of the battery pack. We have already seen increase of about 80% in capacity in only about five years for available batteries (2200Ah to 4000Ah) If your battery lasts lets say five years and you buy your car in lets say 2014 (4000Ah batteries is 2013 tech) and there is similar speed in tech in that time you get 7200Ah batteries as replacement. That would give you 240 * 80% = 432 mile range. Or if they choose to go with same range but less batteries you get decrease of battery price (and car weight) of *at least* 45% (that’s about the amount less batteries you need then).
It is interesting to see what way Tesla chooses to go in battery replacements. Same volume used, which means roughly same price, but a lot more range, or less volume and performance, but also less price?
If batteries cost now 20000$ then after ten years for same battery capacity (2200Ah -> 7200Ah) costs only about 6500$. That easily allows build of $30k affordable car with same range as Roadster has now. If you consider the size and weight of the pack too that 450kg would be decreased to about 140kg and size would be about same size than ordinary car fuel tank (batteries weight / volume is quite a lot more than similar amount of gasoline). At that point EV weights less than ICE-car, and rolling resistance and and performance are increased accordingly. 1238kg -> 928 kg. That’s 30% less weight which means almost directly 30% less rolling resistance which give some increase in range. (if I read that chart correctly that is about 230->210Wh/mile which is about 240->260 mile, not that huge increase, but increase nonetheless)
Based on all the blog posts and comments in the news, the one area that creates the greatest amount of concern when considering the purchase of an electric car is the range. Since most people only drive 35 or 40 miles a day it means that an electric car is going to be a great second car. So here’s the question. how much would the range a price of your 4 door car change if you reduced the 0 to 60 times to 10.5 seconds and how much would that cost? I have an LS430 which should make me a candidate for the model S, but for 50k I only get 160 mile range which is not enough for a car that is not a second car and will be called on to go longer distances.
Sanford Lane; In EV:s range and price are not performance-dependent. High performance engine is also very efficient and probably the cheapest part of the car. After all that is only simple three-phase electric engine that has been around in more or less similar configuration something like hundred years. What costs are batteries and electronics, and those are pretty fixed to currently available reasonably priced tech. Performance also doesn’t affect car efficiency in same way as in ICE. Good performance also means good efficiency and range.
So, unlike ICE-car, engine performance is not the factor in car price. Not big factor anyway. It might be possible to save few bucks by making PEM cheaper by limiting max current it can deliver to engine.
I think you have typo in your post: “much would the range a price of your 4 door car change if you reduced the 0 to 60 times to 10.5 seconds” should be “much would the range of your 4 door car change if you reduced the 0 to 60 times to 10.5 seconds”. Answer to that question is that it wouldn’t affect range at all. For price it could affect few dollars. Something like that.
As I in my previous post mentioned that $30k car that is coming after Type S is possible with cheaper future batteries. But because car engine is pretty much cheapest part, and electronics also develop (making them cheaper) you can expect that $30k car to have excellent performance as well. Something that is close to Type S, if it is similar sized car.
It would be great if you guys placed an synthesized engine sound in the sound system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9XAC-BvUyo
There’s a new positive 4-page review of the 2010 Roadster here: http://www.auto123.com/en/tesla/roadster/2010/review?carid=1106500201&pg=4&artid=116085 . They’re looking for consumer feedback, so any owners here who want to drop in …
I think if Tesla really wants to bring their EVs into the realm of the masses, they have to view that car with mass appeal, for now, as either a car used for daily short range usage( 50-80 mile) such as commuting or as a second car and both with fast recharging capacity. Such a car would only need roughly double that range to compensate for less than ideal/optimal driving conditions. And the total cost of the car should be in the low $30,000 range with emphasis on comparative 5 year total costs to an equivalent ICE. The purchase cost of the EV may be higher than the equivalent ICE or hybrid but the total cost after 5 years(= purchase, service and repair, and fuel) would end up hopefully being equal or lower for the EV compared to the ICE. And except for battery replacement, the EV would be cheaper with time. Then there is the issue of resale value. If the EV beats out the ICE and hybrids in reliability and total costs, the EV becomes an even more desirable car. The things I have mentioned are things used by Consumers Reports in their rating of cars in addition to handling and safety.
Most people, including myself would jump for an EV like that which I have described above. And as stated so many times before by so many different people, with mass purchases of EVs, the supporting infrastructure will come to fruition that much sooner and the cost of manufactuing drops. This mass purchasing also adds to fueling further research in all aspects that benefit the EV. Look what happened with computers and how quickly things changed in that realm. Just as but one example, what the internet did for computers is what the talked about infrastructure here would do for the EV. But unlike the computer-internet comparison, it will be the mass market selling of EVs that will drive the requisite infrastructure changes in a timely manner.