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A critical part of the sales, marketing, and service function at Tesla Motors is to help inform product development and engineering decisions based on a customer perspective, a part of what we call “product marketing.” When validation prototype 10 (VP10) was built, one of the things we planned to use it for was to put a lot of miles on the car and provide marketing feedback to engineering teams for final refinements or validation. We recently scheduled rides with some of our customers to expand the feedback loop and asked them to share their driving experiences publicly on this blog. Customer opinions are unedited, save for my commentary in [brackets]. This week we present three perspectives from our latest testers. Find previous customer posts here.
Tom and Cathy Saxton
Last month we had the opportunity to take the Tesla Roadster for a test drive. Before that, we had only seen the Roadster in photos and video, plus the tantalizing descriptions we’ve read on Tesla’s website and in the few early-version reviews. We were about 80 percent sure we’d like the car well enough that we’d be happy to replace our 1995 NSX-T. We think that Tesla Motors is doing very important work, and we’d be willing to compromise a bit to be able to support Tesla’s concept and help generate excitement for quality electric cars by driving an eye-catching Tesla Roadster.
After driving VP10, we’re totally sold on the Tesla Roadster. It’s more fun to drive than the NSX by a good margin. We can’t wait to get our Tesla Roadster so we can drive it all the time. We’ve documented our experience and impressions of the Roadster on our website.
Jon Faiz Kayyem, PhD
September 23, 2007, Malibu, CA – After a cold front rolls through Los Angeles, it’s amazing to stretch your eyes out and enjoy the 100-mile visibility and beautiful coastline and canyon views of Malibu, and I enjoyed these views very much last Sunday both before and after my test drive in Tesla Roadster VP 10. During my test drive, however, I was focused on the turn ahead and the chase car behind…way behind where I intended to keep it. To be fair to Darryl driving the pace car, I should admit that I really didn’t give him a chance. As I sat in the Roadster on the side of the road with Zak (Zak Edson, member services) pointing out features to me, I saw a car about to pull slowly onto Mulholland ahead of our planned test drive. Visions of a slow speed test drive behind this car triggered an automatic and potentially rude response from me, as I jammed the accelerator and took off ahead of the car. My concern about my own rudeness quickly faded, as the Roadster accelerated very well in second gear, and the slowpoke wasn’t impeded at all. In fact, all he probably saw was a blur ahead and the BMW chase car right on his tail. By the time Darryl had a chance to pass, Zak and I were gone.
What an amazing car. Before the test drive, I was telling Zak that I really wasn’t upset by the program delays, as I was pleasantly surprised that a startup was doing so well at simply staying in business and making forward progress. After the test drive, I’m totally bummed I can’t drive the car right now. It was singularly the best driving experience I’ve ever had, and though I’m not as car-savvy as many Tesla Motors fans, I’ve had my share of driving experiences in Europe and at Willow Springs and never have I had such a smile on before. I think what I enjoyed the most was that I was driving fast but felt completely in control. I wasn’t driving super fast, but I suspect the feeling of control would have remained at even higher speeds. However, I was driving exactly as fast as I wanted to and never felt any pangs of nervousness or fear. Once when I entered a turn a little faster than I wanted to, I just let up on the accelerator, and the regenerative braking slowed the car perfectly. I had both a Porsche C2 and a C4 at different times in my life, and the C2 would not have liked that move. The Tesla Roadster took turns like my old all-wheel drive Carrera 4… only better. I’m not sure why it was better, but it definitely was. Maybe it was the fact that I had both hands on the steering wheel and wasn’t even thinking about shifting gears. The torque that’s available at every speed I tested (0 to 80 mph I’d guess) was so plentiful and smooth that I’m rethinking all my past driving experiences. Sure, it’s fun to shift, but it’s a lot easier and safer and faster not to.
Test drives in Malibu
I’ve just read some of the other test drive blogs and don’t want to reiterate what others are saying, so I won’t give any more details about the performance of the car. It simply is great fun to drive. I like the regen setting where it was during our drive, and if it’s adjustable, I’d love to have a little more assist in the brakes. Or maybe I’d get used to it, but I was surprised that I had to push on the brakes so hard to slow the car dramatically. [Editor’s note: the brake feel has already been improved on other Tesla prototypes with the use of a faster gear ratio for the brake pedal.]
Darryl told me that a purpose of these test drives and follow up blogs was to help Tesla Roadster fans and owners to tolerate the wait. For me, the test drive has made the waiting much less tolerable. I’ve got the solar panels installed on the garage and a 220V circuit ready for the charger, and now I fear that the wait for the vehicle will be interminable. I might have to buy a motorcycle–something I haven’t owned in a decade–just to hold me over until I get my car. I really think you should not do this test drive unless you’re extremely good at delayed gratification. I don’t even think you should read these blog posts, and writing this one is getting me all worked up again. I can’t wait for this car!
Editor’s note: If you want to find out more about what prompted Faiz to reserve a Tesla Roadster, see his previous post.
Bill Bennett
So I got a call on Thursday night from Zak at Tesla Motors to see if I wanted to take a test drive the next day. Well that was pretty much a no-brainer. I was hoping to drive our hot-rodded Porsche 911 Turbo up to the meeting point so I could have a back to back comparison of super cars, but unfortunately the Porsche had a flat tire so that nixed that. Instead I drove down the coast and up into the Santa Cruz Mountains on my 400cc “scooter.” Talk about contrasting rides. I met up with Zak and Aaron (Aaron Platshon, product marketing) across from Alice’s Restaurant at Skyline and 84 in Woodside. Trying to be inconspicuous (yeah, right) they pulled up with their large tow vehicle and the Tesla Motors enclosed trailer. I was actually waiting for them over at Alice’s and their arrival caused quite a buzz among the paying customers. They backed out a beautiful silver Roadster (the color my wife and I have selected as it turns out) and got ready to roll. Zak started me out with a basic intelligence test – I hate when people do that – always sets me up for failure. The test: How to open the driver’s door? I won’t spoil this test for people that don’t know the answer, but I am happy to say I passed! I guess Zak wasn’t fully convinced of my intellect (I did hesitate a bit on the door opening test), so he put forth a second test – how to start the car? I’m not sure if I passed that one, but we did get the car started and off we went.
The test drive was about 12 miles from Alice’s south towards Highway 9. This is a very nice drive with some good curves and some long straights. On a late Friday morning it is also almost deserted. Come back 24 hours later on just about any Saturday with decent weather and you are likely to be inundated with high-end sports cars and sport bikes. For our ride, we had the road to ourselves – except for Aaron and my co-test driver, who were following in Zak’s rather large, black Chrysler 300. In fact, we only came up on one other car the whole way down – a local in a pickup truck.
So, to my driving impressions. Having had the pleasure of driving (and owning) a few very high-end sports cars over the years, and also having a fair amount of on-track driving experience, I took a very leisurely drive. I pushed the car nowhere near its limit and only took one turn where we felt any real lateral forces – a large sweeper that I took at 70 mph and the car felt like it could take it at 140 mph. The power delivery is seamless and very linear. It does not feel anything like a muscle car in that there is no peaking of the power – it is just flat power delivery up the tach. We were driving a car that still uses the old transmission so we were limited to second gear. Even at that, the takeoff from a standstill was quite strong. It is odd to look down at the tach and see the rpm reading of 8500, with plenty to go. This car is quick, but not scary fast (as is my 911 Turbo). In fact, I would think this would be a great car for autocross or even track driving as the motor is so predictable. When we passed that one truck we came upon, it was a very smooth and controlled jaunt up to 80 mph or so and then back down to 50 mph, with no drama at all. Is it possible that electric cars will make people better drivers??
The motor sound is also quite pleasing to me. It is basically a medium turbine-like sound that never gets loud but is always audible. I love the sound of the Porsche flat 6, but the Roadster sound also has plenty of character – although it is clearly a lot less important to driving this car. In a manual sports car, when driving under performance conditions, most people use engine sound to know when to shift – lest you hit the engine cutoff. In the Roadster this is obviously not an issue so my guess is that after driving the car for a while the motor sound will fade into the background.
As I had already had the pleasure of getting a few test rides, I was familiar with the sound and the speed of the car. What I was really looking forward to was getting a feel for the suspension and handling of the car. In this area, Tesla Motors and their team of Lotus co-conspirators have hit a home run (without the use of performance enhancing substances – at least to my knowledge). In my past passenger test rides the suspension was a bit harsh, maybe a step above the Lotus Elise, but not much better, and the cars were rattle prone. In the validation prototype all rattles were gone and the car was remarkably smooth. The handling was very precise and predictable and there was no noticeable body roll. Better cornering is usually achieved at the sacrifice of a smooth ride. Not so in the Roadster, the ride was very smooth, even over bumps, yet the car stayed flat and tight in corners. This has to be the best suspension I have experienced in a production car. The ride is smoother than my BMW M5 and the handling was crisper than a Porsche Boxster.
I expected handling in turns to be similar to the mid-engine Boxster. In the Boxster, the car tends to feel like it is getting pushed straight to the side when cornering hard. In a 911, on the other hand, you feel oversteer, meaning that the back end of the car starts to push outward away from the direction of the turn. Surprisingly, although I did not push the Roadster in any meaningful way, my impression was of slight oversteer for the car. It felt a bit like a 911 in that respect, although the oversteer was quite mild. When I mentioned this to Zak he confirmed that the car weight bias is 60 percent to the rear, not too different from a 911.
I am 6’2” with long legs and I found the car to be very comfortable to drive. Zak, my co-pilot, is 6’5” and he also fit in the car. The new seats, though appearing to be almost track seats, were actually very comfortable. I could easily see doing a several hour drive. The only negative I saw was that the rear view mirror offers pretty limited visibility. I would expect that one would have to rely more on the side view mirrors than in other cars in order to get a good view of the rear. The steering wheel is very small and there is no power assist, which could make for heaving steering. I found the steering feel to be just about perfect. Perhaps at slow speed maneuvering there may be a little more effort than people would like (for those who have driven ’80s era 911s, the steering effort is quite a bit lighter than those cars), but the front tires are not massively wide so it is quite manageable.
As for braking, I know there has been a lot of discussion of the regen braking on the Roadster. I found the regen to be almost imperceptible. Most of my cars have been manuals, so perhaps I am used to engine braking, but that is basically what the regen felt like. We were in second the whole time, and Zak and Aaron both indicated that in first the regen is much more noticeable, but I was of the impression that they could up the regen a bit in second – particularly if it enable the car to extend its range a bit. I for one would be in the camp to allow for driver selectable regen profiles.
Because the regen allows for “engine braking,” I really didn’t get much of a chance to test the actual brakes. The only time I stopped hard was when we reached the end of the test drive and the brakes seemed sufficient. I would expect that they would match the performance of the suspension under hard driving, but I am sure the car magazines will put them through the paces soon enough.
The fit and finish on the car itself looked to be very high quality. Unfortunately, I was so taken with driving the car that I failed pay attention to anything else – like the seat heaters (which I would have activated if I had thought about it as it was a bit chilly), the stereo, the A/C, the power readout and other gauges. Oh well, I guess I’ll have to wait for my next drive for that!
Posted in the categories: Performance, Company, On the Road
Nice blog. Keep them coming.
Very nice Car , Very high price for a green car company, you need to mass manufacture this car and make it affordable to all people in this country,
Good Luck
AMAZING!!! I had the good opportunity to drive the Roadster at Skyline near Woodside today. I drive a BMW M3 and love the car. However after driving the Tesla Roadster I want to get mine sooner than the date I had been assigned of May, 2008. (I realize now that it will be later and perhaps in September or October of 2008.) I was really worried that by having only two gears I would really miss downshifting. After driving the Roadster I do not feel the need to downshift. The Roadster really sticks to the road far better than my M3. I really love the steering and handling of the Roadster.
The Roadster really handles the corners very well. I was really surprised how solid the Roadster felt as I drove it on the very bumpy and curvy Skyline road. I was also surprised that the Tesla Roadster handled the bumps in a firmer way and with more control than my BMW M3. There was a feeling of more control. I love driving my M3 but I know know that I will not mind at all selling my M3 when my Roadster arrives. It is a superior car in handling, performance and certainly energy efficiency over my M3. I am totally sold on the car and can hardly wait until my Roadster arrives. It is the best car I have ever driven. I am the past owner of a Porsche and also a Lotus Cortina and other cars. It is a fantastic energy efficient machine and lots of fun to drive. I am so excited to get the Roadster and also drive it. It will give me at least another 10 years of life and fun driving the Roadster.
Nice to hear buyer perspectives. Now, can you find one that is willing to push the car a bit?
Have any short customers driven the car? I keep seeing the comments that people over 6′ fit into the car quite comfortably and that the seat has limited adjustability. Several of my female relatives are in the 4′10″ to 5′2″ range. If I ever trusted my sister to drive my Tesla (I can dream) would she be able to reach the pedals? I assume the seats slide forward and back (at least until you reach the battery pack or the steering wheel
) Just curious.
Chris, you can see on our blog that Cathy is 5′2″ and was okay with how the car fit. Our write-up is maybe a little harder to discover since it’s just a link from the intro paragraph above. It’s at:
www.saxton.org/tesla/
Tom & Cathy
Oh how I hope Tesla finds a way to reduce the price of the roadster over the years.
It would be fantastics if they could become accessible to more people as time goes on.
I wonder if Bill Bennett knows that there is a Bill Bennett, VP of Tesla Enterprises:
www.teslaenterprises.com/team.html
I have watched your company since the beginnings & have been pulling for you all the way!!!! I sure hope you guys get these cars on the road soon cause Chevy has started trying to steal your glory!! During the Indians-RedSox baseball game tonite, Chevy had a commercial touting there very lame 40 mile per electric charge Chevy Volt. Thing is ALOT of peope & I almost guarentee most have never even heard of the Tesla car. This is not good! Your company either needs more public exposure or some Tesla Roadsters on the streets!
Go Tesla Go!!!!!!!!!!
Another great blog! Thanks for keeping the dream alive for the rest of us. Thank you Cathy and Tom:) It’s great to get a perspective for those of us who are vertically challenged. I’ve been worried that the Roadster would not fit the smaller frame and you have alleviated that fear. The only problem now is waiting until someone trades in their “old” Roadster for the new 2010 model so I can buy it!
Chevy getting exposure for a serial hybrid that can likely get 100x more sales than the roadster per year is nothing but fantastic. It means that some of the bigwigs actually see the writing on the wall, and don’t intend to fall by the wayside when the revolution comes.
Tesla is not hurting for publicity, having nearly sold out their entire ‘08 model year production before the first car is delivered. I expect to see advertisement (that isn’t at an auto-show somewhere) when demand starts lagging behind supply. When most of the people that ‘already get it’ have bought one, THEN you start educating others who have misconceptions, or biases. (assuming those continue to exist)
Has anyone driven with the top on? What is the clearance like?
I am surprised the soft top requires stowing since it really limits the usage as a daily driver. Any plans for a top that can be lowered / raised? Even a full manual system would be better than something you need to stow and put on. Most convertables actually list the time it takes to open / close the top. Based on a normal person working alone how long does it take to stow / install the soft top?
Here’s a new tesla article from wall street journal:
online.wsj.com/article/SB119220246200657368.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Really miss hearing from Martin !!!
I hope he is still there, it wouldn’t be Tesla without him !!
Anyone else feel the same????
Anything would be reassuring.
Just to let folks know , a guy that rides to work with me after telling him all about tesla happened to tell me that he did see the commercial for tesla roadster on the local cable broadcasting out here in the midwest IL . So it is very clear to see that people are finding out about this car .. Please keep up the good work guys , were pulling for you .. Can’t wait for the opening of a Tesla online gift store . If it is possible.
More reviews!!! A very satisfying post!
It’s great to hear that the handling is amazing. And I know for sure it’s true b/c Project Gotham Racing ranks the Roadster’s handling at max, or nearly max.
I have a concern though. The WhiteStar is being developed w/o help from Lotus, who helped Tesla make the Roadster. Without Lotus’s experience in making great handling cars, how is Tesla going to make WhiteStar have great handling just like their Roadster? All will be revealed…
I just read a very interesting article about Tesla Motors that has revealed much that I never knew, and I’ve been following the company ever since they showed the car at the Concours d’Elegance.
online.wsj.com/article/eyes_on_the_road.html?mod=djemroad
“A supplier for the car’s original transmission failed, and a subsequent decision to move from a one-speed transmission to a two-speed proved more difficult to execute than expected.”
Wasn’t the car always a two-speed? Or maybe Tesla told us it was a two-speed at the time since they were in the process of changing it? Or maybe I remember wrong? Why would Tesla have problems with the simpler one-speed?
“We are planning on building (cars) in Albuquerque. It’s possible we might want to do something different.” (Martin speaking)
It looks like Tesla got a little ahead of themselves with the Whitestar plant.
“The result of that [keeping the entire battery pack safe when a cell catches fire] was, aside from the schedule stuff, was that the battery pack got bigger by about 15% and the car gained a couple hundered pounds of weight.”
I got this last quote from the video provided with the article. Martin also said before this quote that this was a major setback for the schedule. Hmm…this quote makes it sounds like they are talking about the recent weight/range setback from refinement. The battery pack weight gain couldn’t have been done during the refinement/weight/range setback though because it wasn’t mentioned in the blog, and because the explode proof battery pack was advertised well before the range/weight/refinement setback.
However, it kind of doesn’t make sense that the battery pack gained a “couple hundered pounds” either. Does this mean that of the 900 pound battery pack, 200 something pounds are for the architecture* and electronics that keep the batteries from chain exploding? Either something was said wrong, I’m not aware of something, Tesla lied (very unlikely) or that 200 something pounds of the battery pack really are just for the archicture and electronics that precent cell chain explosions.
*when I say architecture, I mean the winecase-like slots that the batteries are housed in.
I’m really disappointed to read in Tom and Cathy’s blog that Tesla’s dropping the iPod connector for just a headphone jack. Pioneer makes several models (like the DEH-P5900IB) that give you full access to all your playlists, and show you the playlist names and track names. Blaupunkt seems to have a similar offering with full playlists and titles, as do Kenwood and Sony. I’m sure most other manufacturers have also figured out how to take advantage of the iPod.
I also think that using the radio’s controls would be less distracting than trying to use the click-wheel or the touch-screen on the iPod (most definitely the touch screen on the iPhone — it’s down-right hazardous to try to use while driving). Those Pioneer receivers will work with other players as well, since they sport an AUX connection in addition to the iPod connector option. My partner has a Pioneer DEH-P4900IB in his Insight, and it works perfectly, in all the ways that older receiver models don’t, and AUX-in-only models can’t.
Wonder who’s providing the li-on battery pack for the Aptera-Tesla? From Wall St. Journal article looks like Whitestar sedan may be in 2010 (or later?) not 2009 . Roadster road tests interesting but I’d like Whitestar info. Eestor (”fact or fiction”) unveiling may also be delayed till next year. Which brings up the question “where’s Anatoly”-does he know he can order an Aptera now?
I’m really jealous to realize that people are test driving the car right by our house (we live on Skyline between 84 and Page Mill). Several times I’ve seen a yellow Lotus-like car coming south as I’m coming home and wondered if it was a Tesla.
I hope future Tesla models are affordable (
Mini Me: Martin is still the “face” of the company, and has been active with the press. A few people have linked to a Wall Street Journal article featuring an interview with him.
Joseph: I think the one-speed to two-speed change happened before the car was announced. I agree that Tesla made a mistake going for the WhiteStar factory too soon. I’m fairly sure the battery pack enhancements also happened before the car was announced; the more recent weight gain was due to a number of minor upgrades.
T.J.: Aptera is definitely not working with Tesla on their battery, even Think isn’t working with Tesla anymore… the “Tesla Energy Group” was suspended so the company could focus on delivering the Roadster (see www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9798162-7.html ).
Personally I don’t want to hear anything about WhiteStar until the Roadster is being delivered to customers. There are already enough small EV companies chattering endlessly about their future plans (and delivering nothing), and Tesla doesn’t need to join that crowd. Focus is the key
#Joseph wrote on October 16th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
##“A supplier for the car’s original transmission failed, and a subsequent decision to move from a one-speed transmission to a two-speed proved more difficult to execute than expected.”
##Wasn’t the car always a two-speed? Or maybe Tesla told us it was a two-speed at the time since they were in the process of changing it? Or maybe I remember wrong? Why would Tesla have problems with the simpler one-speed?
##“We are planning on building (cars) in Albuquerque. It’s possible we might want to do something different.” (Martin speaking)
##It looks like Tesla got a little ahead of themselves with the Whitestar plant.
##“The result of that [keeping the entire battery pack safe when a cell catches fire] was, aside from the schedule stuff, was that the battery pack got bigger by about 15% and the car gained a couple hundered pounds of weight.”
##… The battery pack weight gain couldn’t have been done during the refinement/weight/range setback though because it wasn’t mentioned in the blog, and because the explode proof battery pack was advertised well before the range/weight/refinement setback.
##However, it kind of doesn’t make sense that the battery pack gained a “couple hundered pounds” either. Does this mean that of the 900 pound battery pack, 200 something pounds are for the architecture* and electronics that keep the batteries from chain exploding? Either something was said wrong, I’m not aware of something, Tesla lied (very unlikely) or that 200 something pounds of the battery pack really are just for the archicture and electronics that precent cell chain explosions.
Joseph - Thanks for the link to that article.
This blog www.teslamotors.com/blog3/?p=36 talks about a 2 speed transmission way back in November of 2006. Maybe the change and delay occurred way back in the early stages of the development. If I remember right the new transmission was installed in at least on of the EP models.
Ms. Editor, can you address this one?
I was looking forward to the Albuquerque facility and location I hope this doesn’t change.
I listened to the video and I believe the weight gain that Martin referred to is the infrastructure in the vehicle to protect the occupants and the ESS. The 15% gain referred to the size of the ESS itself and only contributed to a portion of the 200 pounds increase. This blog www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=48#more-48 talked about this gain and some of the changes required to pass the side impact test. The first bullet addresses the 15% increase in size of the ESS.
What is the largest number of miles put on the test cars so far and have any issues surfaced as of the punishment yet?
“Th!nk isn’t working with Tesla anymore… the “Tesla Energy Group” was suspended so the company could focus on delivering the Roadster”
I heard that TEG was delayed, but why would that mean that Th!nk would stop working iwht them just because of a delay. Th!nk has been looking for batteries, but I’m assuming they’re still using Tesla’s ESS. Unless, maybe Th!nk is looking at super expensove super batterie slike those from A123, so they won’t need ESS? Ugh, confusion….
“The 15% gain referred to the size of the ESS itself and only contributed to a portion of the 200 pounds increase.”
Thanks Jean for the great response. However, I have to disagree. Sorry!
Let me explain my opinion. Martin’s “Range Reality” blog said that the ESS put on weight by stiffening up the ESS so it can absorb vibrations. It doesn’t mention anything about gaining weight b/c they had to design the pack to stop chain cell explosions. So, IMO, the weight gain on the ESS from designing it to stop chain cell explosions (as Martin mentioned in the video) must be reffering to sometime before Tesla ever went public. My other reason is that Tesla has always touted thier !battery packs as explosion proof, before the recent weight gain we heard about. Thanks for the link to the first blog post, It’s been so long since I’ve first read it. It seems like it was from the old days of Tesla Motors!
Can you tell that the Wall Street Journal is under new management? This article seemed very negatively biased. Most of what they regurgitated is very old news, presented as new to look more biting. I hate to see WSJ reduced to this.
The unfortunate thing is that by mixing old news with new news makes the comments confusing for those of us who have been keeping up.
Joseph: Think has already apparently signed a separate deal with EnerDel: biz.yahoo.com/prnews/071015/clm141.html?.v=25 . EnerDel’s press release is glowing, but the reality is they’re severely in debt and on the edge of bankruptcy so I doubt they’ll be a reliable supplier. Seems like an act of desperation on the part of Think, to me.
Mark: Yeah, stating problems encountered last year as if they were this summer definitely makes things seem worse than they really are. Fear, uncertainty, and doubt seems to be the mood of the whole article. The forum discussion linked from the article shows a strong conservative bias, too. I think Tesla should have some kind of policy when dealing with conservative / republican reporters to play up the “energy independence” aspect of electric cars, the overall performance of the vehicle, and the reliability of electric drive. They don’t go for the feel-good hippie stuff
Pete asked if anyone has driven it with the top on.
Last Monday I had the privilege of driving VP10 on Skyline in the rain (report to follow later). The fabric top was definitely on.
I normally drive a BMW 330 and I was pleased and surprised to find the headroom in the Roadster was about an inch more than in the 330.
Zak (~ 6′ 5″) was in the right seat and seemed to fit just fine.
Don’t know about the hardtop, but I don’t see any reason for it to be different.
Pete,
I had a unique experience with the Roadster soft top a few weeks ago on my test drive. We got caught in the rain. Zak and Aaron, from Tesla were able to put the soft-top on in about 15 seconds. I think Aaron had only done it once before and Zak never had. It’s well designed, goes on quickly but securely.
I also had no problem getting in with the top on or with headroom and I’m 6′4″ tall. My shorter, 5′2″ wife sat on a pillow (that she normally uses with our other cars) and was able to reach the pedals and drive without any issues. We’ll probably end up cobbling together a custom pad for her when the Roadster arrives so she can be completely comfortable driving it.
Personally, I think that in addition to creating an incredible drive train, Tesla has done an outstanding job in creating a small car that will accommodate people of different sizes. Our EV1 was uncomfortable for me and I can’t fit in most small sports cars because they aren’t designed for tall people. My wife doesn’t drive our MG at all because she can’t reach the pedals.
Earl
Bigger White Star Plant?
www.autobloggreen.com/2007/10/18/teslas-whitestar-albuquerque-plant-grows-bigger-on-paper/
www.abqtrib.com/news/2007/oct/17/tesla-motors-may-expand-plans-assembly-plant-west-/
Dear Tesla Motors team members,
Today, I was very glad to hear on NPR the news about your car. CONGRATULATIONS! I ran as soon as possible to your website to learn more.
Well, the price of $98.000 is disappointing to say the least. I hope that you will decrease the price of the TESLA Roadster by yourself and so very soon or that the market (competition) will force the prices of electric cars in general down.
I believe that you should be loyal to your name. Never forget that Mr. NIKOLA TESLA was offered to get 10% from every sold kW/h of electricity. Imagine how much money he would have by now. More than Mr. Bill Gates for sure. Well, NIKOLA TESLA refused the offer stating that his discovery/patent was his gift to the humanity.
I hope that your car will become your gift to the humanity as well since Mr. TESLA’s discoveries (electric motor and electricity) make the heart and blood stream of your car. You should give your TESLA Roadster to the humanity as soon as possible for a reasonable price.
For snobs who love expensive cars, you can always make a model with golden roof so that they can flatter their egos and feel special.
In the meantime, save the planet, for the snobs also need to breathe.
Thanks again for your hard work.
Denis
I am so incredibly excited about the prospects of Electric Vehicles that I am highly considering changing my career choice. Is there any particular university courses or programs you would recommend to potential future employees.
Like electric engineering or something
Hi there, I would like to know whether the Roadster can handle winter. Your FAQ informs me that the vehicle can operate in “Cold weather”, however it never says how cold. I’d like to know if it can handle the occasional Canadian January, where I’ve seen temperatures dip below -40C, at that temperature operating the vehicle at 100KPH will cause windchill to easily exceed -60C. This will undoubtedly affect the range of the vehicle, but to what extent? Has this vehicle been tested for winter conditions? Not California winter, but Montana, or Canada kind of winter…
Didn’t someone mention Venture Vehicles should team up with Tesla in a previous post? Check out this article in the Albuquerque tribune. I wonder if something is in the works?
albuquerque.bizjournals.com/albuquerque/stories/2007/10/22/story2.html?b=1193025600^1537555
TM, when do you plan to start hiring in Albuquerque?
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Editor’s Answer: Keep your eye on the jobs page.
# Denis wrote on October 18th, 2007 at 8:25 pm
## Dear Tesla Motors team members,
##Today, I was very glad to hear on NPR the news about your car.
## CONGRATULATIONS! I ran as soon as possible to your website to learn more.
## Well, the price of $98.000 is disappointing to say the least. I hope that you
## will decrease the price of the TESLA Roadster by yourself and so very soon
## or that the market (competition) will force the prices of electric cars in general down.
Hello Denis
Read this:
www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=8
Plan is to get money by selling high-end expensive sports car, and then use that money to make more affordable car “Whitestar” and then use _that_ money to make even cheaper car for rest of us.
Roadster is just a start.
To make real impact on world pollution (and our way of living in general) we need to change what normal people do. And best way to do that is make them want to do it simply because new way is easier and better. And that isn’t going to happen by making a cheap EV that loses to even weakest same price ICE car. That is not going to happen. That way you just end up losing bunch of money and even that your intentions would be good, nobody would care.
Humans are lazy, ignorant, self-indulgent and stupid. Remember that average IQ is only 100 (by definition, but if you consider that how bad that 100 really is then you get the point).
I am very interested in the Tesla Roadster, but am concerned about the 250 mile limitation. Are there any plans for having a small trailer option that would hold a protable generator and maybe room for lugage that could be used on those rare ocassions that you want to go much further and generate power as you go if needed.
Wow.. I’m getting really scared when I see people that post messages and don’t read anything previous or have followed the company at all. Seriously people…… Would you buy a Lamborghini, or Porsche and stick a trailer behind it to pull something??? Do you really want to drive a high-end exotic sports car more than 250 miles??? WHY? It makes no sense. You’re not going to drive to Vegas in this thing. There is not a lot of room for luggage. This is a FUN, SPORTS CAR, not a family station wagon. Give Tesla Motors a break and wait for their future vehicles. They have the money and brains behind them to change the world. Just don’t expect a car designed for fun and sports, to meet all your daily needs. Go buy a Hybrid if your still stuck in that mindset.
The possible expansion of the Albuquerque site leads to question of whether Tesla should one day do something like The Mclaren Technology Centre (check ou their website auto fans)-check out what the Mclaren Group does-even airline food of all things. Tesla could develop all things elect. at the Center- selling tech. to others, or doing their own projects-as in other vehicles: motorcycle, snowmobile, warehouse transport vehicles-like forklifts, whatever. That would be different-but not as different as Yamaha making pianos and Honda making lawn mowers.
Good post there Robert, you are speaking for a lot of us.
To Al Halfaker: Don’t be dismayed, you are not the first to suggest a generator trailer, and probably won’t be the last. The Tesla Roadster was designed as a 2 seat runabout, not really designed to haul a lot of stuff or go on really long trips. Most owners will use it as their daily commute and everyday around-town car, and use their 2nd car (or rent a car) for those occasional long trips.
AFAIK, Tesla Motors did not plan on the Roadster pulling a trailer, nor did they design it to accept incoming power from a generator while driving. However, knowing the characteristics of Silicon Valley, I would not be at all suprised if someone hacks up a way to hook some sort of “range extender generator” to the Roadster not long after delivery to customers.
An interesting side note: One of the Tesla Engineers, J.S. Straubel, (I hope I got the name right!) has a lot of experience making his own homebrew electric vehicles, and back in the old “lead acid battery” days designed two pusher trailers for his EV, One was made from the back end of an old VW Beetle, the other from the front end of a VW Rabbit.
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Editor’s Answer: That would be JB, not JS
Robert said what I was going to say.
A friend recently told me the Roadster isn’t practical because it has a tiny trunk, and you would have a hard time fitting a bill of groceries in it! I just can’t imagine anybody getting this car as a grocery hauler. It’s the same thing when you talk about range — this isn’t advertised as a grand touring car, that’s not its purpose in life. (Although you can charge it away from home once in a while, if necessary.)
I think whenever the subject of electric cars comes up, some people make a leap of imagination and try to picture how electric cars could replace all gasoline cars overnight. The answer: they can’t. But that’s not what Tesla are trying to do, is it? They’re trying to introduce one particular type of electric car, produced in very modest numbers, and then hopefully grow from there. As years pass, we’ll all find out where it leads and where it doesn’t lead. That’s how change happens in the real world.
Tony, You hit the nail right on the head! Thank you
# Jason wrote on October 19th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
## Hi there, I would like to know whether the Roadster can handle winter.
BradC gave me this link in “Feel” -blog when I asked the same question:
www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=43
To me it looks like Tesla is not tested beyond -20C, and if it is then it is not safe to drive in those conditions. Bad news to you and me. I believe car itself is OK in those conditions, but ESS is not. I don’t know why though. Does Lithium-ion batteries freeze?
www.gm-volt.com/2007/10/20/bob-lutz-insists-chevy-volt-is-not-a-plug-in-hybrid/
GM’s Bob Lutz would prefer it if people didn’t call the Volt a “plug-in hybrid” (PHEV). His preferred term is “range extended electric vehicle” (RxEV). Whereas in reality the Volt is a “largely powered by gas electric vehicle” (LPGEV).
www.gm-volt.com/2007/08/29/latest-chevy-volt-battery-pack-and-generator-details-and-clarifications/
I hope the Volt succeeds. If nothing else it will teach motorists that the more they modify their driving behaviour to try to keep within the more modest range limits of battery power alone, the more money they will save. That’s a good message for Tesla’s technology.
Predictably, Bob sees Biofuels as the answer to imported oil and CO2.
www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=fuel&subject=fuelAlt&story=e85
alt-e.blogspot.com/2006/07/is-ethanol-e85-fuel-solution.html
Great blogs guys, sorry I’ve nothing as informative to add. No need for corporate espionage in the age of the blog eh? Bearing in mind we are truly on the cusp of something revolutionary, does anyone else from the UK find the total lack of media coverage unnerving? I keep thinking this site will disappear one day and the next I’ll hear of Tesla is on ‘Who Killed the Electric Car 2′. Good thing you’ve got Arnie onside! I would have thought the fact we British can actually build anything was news enough these days, let alone the greatest innovation in transport since the jet engine.
One thing that occurred to me while cycling to Uni (not to be green, i’m just poor!) was how reliant one is on ICE noise in road awareness (Notice cyclists never use ipods- its a death sentence). Combine this with the fact that they go like- ahem- ‘halibuts’, and I’m afraid the mass market electric car may become the biggest killer of the next decade. Worst of all, of your fellow eco-warriors! Still, you cant make an omelette….
Absolutely outstanding. Wonderful to see what Tesla is doing to bring luxury and responsibility to the auto world.
# Malcolm Wilson wrote on October 21st, 2007 at 6:37 am
## GM’s Bob Lutz would prefer it if people didn’t call the Volt a “plug-in hybrid”
## (PHEV). His preferred term is “range extended electric vehicle” (RxEV).
## Whereas in reality the Volt is a “largely powered by gas electric vehicle” (LPGEV).
## www.gm-volt.com/2007/08/29/latest-chevy-volt-battery-pack-and-generator-details-and-clarifications/
Chevy Volt is actually a concept my friend invented about 10-15 years ago. He explained to me (I wasn’t interested in cars back then…well, not as much as now
) that gasoline generator is much more fuel-efficient than car motor. Combine that to battery pack and electric motor and you get a car that goes 100km with one liter of gasoline. Much better than any conventional ICE car. But that wasn’t EV, and he didn’t consider it as one.
It is better than conventional ICE, but worse than pure EV….unless you need huge range with one tank of gasoline.
# Merz wrote on October 21st, 2007 at 8:09 am
## One thing that occurred to me while cycling to Uni (not to be green, i’m just poor!) was how reliant one is on ICE noise in road awareness.
My dad said the same thing about catalytic converters in 1976. They cut down on exhaust noise.
If warning noise was a requirement for vehicles many very quiet high end luxury cars would have the same issue. A Lexus LS is nearly silent.
Cyclists and pedestrians sharing the road really need to use their eyes as car sound is not a reliable way to know when a vehicle coming.
We have lots of hybrids on the road now that frequently are running all electric…
Merz: Concern about the lack of sound coming from EVs is something I hear about on occasion; I know at least one blindness organization is lobbying for a “minimum noise level” for cars.
I think it would be more productive to pass laws to make EVs more attractive to the mass-market, thus eliminating our foreign oil dependence. Bringing our troops home would arguably save more lives than the lack of EV noise.
Yeah, well said Robert. A lot of people just don’t get this car because they expect to use one car for every journey they ever make. Well, people who buy $100,000 two seaters, with no luggage space worth talking about, always own another car that is more practical. Go get the groceries in that. Go to the airport in that, if you’re flying long haul. Use the Tesla to make all those every-day short trips to work and back and to visit friends etc and you’ll be a happy man…or woman! The only real downside to that that I can see is the slightly difficult manoeuvre required to get in and out of the car, but you get used to that. Hybrids like the Volt will eventually mutate into full EVs as their batteries get bigger and bigger and their IC engines smaller and smaller. One day the owner will realise he hasn’t heard that IC engine start up in a while and then he’ll ask GM for a cheaper car without the IC option…thanks GM!
As for accidents, electric vehicle drivers, cyclists and pedestrians will need to be more vigilant in the short term while everyone adjusts to the dirrerent noise signatures of approaching electric vehicles - and they do make a noise (unless you purposefully creep up on people at 5 or 10 mph)
Andew Kelsey: GM’s Volt could also help make a market for Tesla, as Volt customers start wishing for a larger battery or better performance.
I’m a little uncertain about the sales prospects of the Volt itself, though. It’s either going to be very expensive (due to the two motors) or a poor performer (two small motors). I guess it’ll depend on where gas prices are at the time it’s released.
# Malcolm Wilson wrote on October 22nd, 2007 at 4:18 am
## As for accidents, electric vehicle drivers, cyclists and pedestrians will
## need to be more vigilant in the short term while everyone adjusts to the
## dirrerent noise signatures of approaching electric vehicles - and they do
## make a noise (unless you purposefully creep up on people at 5 or 10 mph)
Indeed. I just today wondered which is worse in heavy traffic, car engine noise or car tire noise. I tried to pick up car engine noise from some of the new cars that did go by me (about one meter distance) and all I could hear was tire noise. Only few cars did make noticeable engine noise, but those were either old or very big cars. Obviously there was car engine noise too, but it was only part of the total noise that road caused.
# Merz wrote
# does anyone else from the UK find the total lack of media coverage unnerving?
As a fellow Brit I think that the lack of UK media coverage reflects the general malaise in reporting about British manufacturing, but I wouldn’t go as far as to call it a total lack. The links with Lotus and energy efficiency are too good an opportunity to miss and have yielded some UK reports in the past 18 months or so. Here are the relevant links from the media section of this site:-
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/6940007.stm
driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/new_car_reviews/article2036260.ece?OTC-HPtoppuff&ATTR=teslac
www.topgear.com/content/features/stories/2007/05/stories/11/1.html
news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6190000/newsid_6191900/6191957.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm
www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/inbusiness/inbusiness_20060921.shtml
www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2006/aug/22/motoring.lifeandhealth
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article606128.ece
Please read this: the blogs are getting hit by a spam storm. If your post contains more than one URL, it is likely to get thrown into the spam bucket. Due to the high number of spam comments, I may miss it. Think before you post
The Editor.
Ryan Lamansky: I agree about the Volt…especially on the price. In fact price is still the major limiting factor for EVs and I haven’t heard anything yet that represents a real breakthrough in that area. Mitsubishi’s MiEV is due in the UK soon but the IC engined car, that is here already, costs around £9,000 (US$18,000) and the electric version is slated to cost £15,000 (US$30,000). I think it’s great that a mainstream manufacturer like Mitsubishi is going to put a properly developed, real EV on the road but this is a tiny 4 seater Kei class car for US$30,000 so it isn’t going to break any sales records even in London with our huge congestion charges. This just validates Tesla’s decision to go for the top end of the market, but how are they going to reduce costs significantly for the Whitestar and the popular small car that is supposed to follow it? I know battery costs wil come down but it looks to me like we still have maybe ten years to go before we’ll get any significant numbers of EVs on the roads.
Andrew Kelsey: I think Tesla will be able to achieve substantial cost savings on most of their parts when they start ordering them 10,000 at a time for future models… but batteries are going to be painful. For an ICE car, to get more range you just put in a bigger gas tank–this doesn’t affect the sticker price at all. But for an EV, the battery is usually most expensive component. I’m very curious about how Tesla plans to solve this problem.
I don’t think EVs need to get down to the $15000 price point. At about $30000, the lifetime fuel cost savings will make an EV worthwhile versus a $15000 ICE car, if feature set (seats, cargo capacity, comfort, speed, etc) is comparable. I think such an EV is more than 10 years away, though…
Lifetime fuel cost savings are all very well but they are heavily dependent on the number of miles travelled, obviously, and this can really vary a lot, especially with small city cars. I think EV prices are going to have to get pretty close to those of regular cars before the majority will take a chance on one. They have to remember that there could be a battery replacement cost involved if the car is kept for a long time. It may be that the TH!NK solution of offering the car and the battery as two separate items will help mitigate this. TH!NK plan to lease the batteries so you can treat the capital cost of the battery and the charging cost together as one item to compare with the fuel cost of running a gasoline engined car. It’s messy but maybe it would encourage timid buyers if they knew that they would never be stuck with a useless battery and a large capital cost to replace it.
Somebody suggested on here that a suitable car for a Tesla battery pack (ESS) would be the old Smart Roadster. The car is already developed and crash tested etc and a smaller Tesla battery pack like the one developed for the TH!NK, would give it pretty healthy performance. Looks like a good fit to me and would produce a cheaper EV . Did I read somewhere that the TEG sale of ESSs has been put on hold for the moment until the Tesla Roadster has been successfully launched? If that’s true it doesn’t augur well for the whole ESS concept in my opinion. If the ESS is really the way to go the time to sell it is now, before anybody else has a viable solution on offer.
Re: Silence not necessarily golden
Several years ago I almost got flattened by an EV1 at the JPL in Pasadena. My fault of course, I was jay-walking, but the fact remains that EV’s are quiet even more so to us “older” members of the public and you can’t hear them coming.
I’m not sure what the answer is. Constant horn blasting doesn’t seem a good idea but then neither does broadcasting the amplified sounds of an ICE vehicle. I guess right now with so few of them (EV’s) on the road it isn’t really an issue, but in years to come it will be and some thought should be given now how to resolve the problem.
Peter J Hedge
Victoria, BC
Andrew Kelsey: The problem with Think’s battery leasing plan is the cost of the lease + electricity is about the same as gasoline. Except a gas car’s base price is much less than a Think base price, and performs better.
I think the best solution is to design a battery system that lasts the life of the car. A good starting point would be a 500 mile battery… it might drop to 80% of it’s original capacity after 5 years, but that’s still 400 miles. Maybe down to 300 after 10. The car would be come progressively less useful in its later years, but it would still be plenty for many people, setting up a thriving Used EV market.
As for the Smart Roadster, any sort of modification of a car to use a big battery and electric drive will, among other regulatory headaches, require all crash testing to be redone. Plus, these things aren’t designed to accommodate a large battery, sort of like fitting a square block into a round hole. Tesla’s approach to design their own vehicles as pure EVs from day one will probably work best, long-term.
It’s true that the “Tesla Energy Group” is on hold right now. Tesla’s under immense pressure to finish the Roadster, and as a company they can’t afford any distractions right now.
Peter J Hedge wrote on October 24th, 2007 at 7:54 am
“Several years ago I almost got flattened by an EV1 at the JPL in Pasadena. My fault of course, I was jay-walking, but the fact remains that EV’s are quiet even more so to us “older” members of the public and you can’t hear them coming.”
I really don’t understand that. Usually, I don’t hear the engine of a car, because the sound is drowned out by the loud tire noise.
If I heard the sound of the engine while crossing the road, the car would be too close to avoid.
I live in Europe. Maybe the engines here are quieter and the tires louder. But I wouldn’t really acustically notice the absence of a petrol engine.
# Ryan Lamansky / Kardax wrote on October 23rd, 2007 at 12:56 pm
## I don’t think EVs need to get down to the $15000 price point. At about
## $30000, the lifetime fuel cost savings will make an EV worthwhile versus
## a $15000 ICE car, if feature set (seats, cargo capacity, comfort, speed, etc)
## is comparable. I think such an EV is more than 10 years away, though…
I don’t believe it takes that long to develop that EV. But to get it common takes more than that. Cars do not get replaced very quickly, so ICE cars will still be majority of cars in 10 years even if we get that cheap EV _now_.
One possible good target for EV is local traffic buses. They accelerate/deaccelerate all of time, which makes fuel efficiency very poor, they are not mass-produced in very large scale which makes them rather expensive making ESS price relatively low, high torque of electric motor would move heavy bus quite easily _and_ those things don’t need high top speed or rocket acceleration.
Typical local traffic bus costs about 300000-450000$, fuel consumption is about 45-55l/km. Initial cost of ESS would not scare potential buyer away, and it would buy itself back in about 2 years with fuel-costs alone, not to mention engine/transmission repair and maintenance costs for this kind of use. I would be stupid _not_ to buy one.
To me that does look like perfect thing for Tesla ESS and electric engine. New market. And usually local traffic companies do like to show how “green” they are so that makes them even easier target.
I don’t know how well electric engine is suited for this use though. My intuition says that it is very well suited, but if someone has figures to show otherwise then please correct me.
Re: David Stone’s comment
I should have explained, David, that the EV1 was only “creeping” along at about 20 km/h. I agree that at high speed other sounds such as tyre noise come into play.
In any event people (myself included) should use their eyes to check the coast is clear and not rely on their ears.
Peter J Hedge
Victoria, BC
I wrote:
## Typical local traffic bus costs about 300000-450000$, fuel consumption
## is about 45-55l/km. Initial cost of ESS would not scare potential buyer away,
## and it would buy itself back in about 2 years with fuel-costs alone
I did a slight miscalculation: average 16hour day at average of 40km/h = 640km, 50l/100km (not 50l/km obviously). 365days in a year. 116800 euros / year in fuel alone (Finnish diesel cost). Even if I drop this to half I still get over 50000euros or 75000$ for fuel alone, while electricity would cost about one tenth of that. One year of payback time max even with double or triple size ESS.
How an earth we don’t have all short range local traffic buses electric already???
A news item: ZAP opens its latest Xebra plant in China and rolls out its first vehicle from that plant, video here: www.flickr.com/photos/11374805@N00/sets/72157602671261606/show/
From the press release: “The new factory has the capacity to produce up to 4,000 vehicles per month, according to officials from ZAP and (ZAP’s Chinese partner) Shandong Jindalu Vehicle Company, Ltd. The modernized factory provides a more productive working environment with state-of-the-art automation as well as vehicle research, development and production capabilities.
“Shandong Jindalu held a dedication ceremony and celebration at the new facility. More than 300-400 attended, including the Governor of Shandong Province and the Mayor of Lin Xian. Shandong Jindalu President Mr. Lu hosted the dedication. The factory opening was broadcast throughout the country on Chinese television with ZAP Chief of Operations Amos Kazzaz shown cutting the ribbon for the new factory. ”
The old factory could only put out 1,000 per month. Looks like a big deal, if you’re from around there. In stock trading today, ZAAP was down a penny.
I think Tesla took a good path, deciding to work down the affordability curve from luxury to economy. But part of that was predicated on the idea that going the other way wouldn’t be feasible. It’s still a little early to say, but maybe ZAP is providing a counter-example. If so, a suggestion: ZAP and Tesla merge, with high and low-end in place, and meet in the middle for WhiteStar. This would also put Tesla in the stock market , through ZAAP (which may or may not be a good idea
).
James Anderson Merritt: It doesn’t seem to matter what ZAP does because they lose money doing it. This isn’t even ZAP’s factory; ZAP buys the XEBRAs and re-sells them here. I’m expecting a surge in ocean freight costs next year, which will make ZAP even more unprofitable.
On the other hand, Tesla isn’t profitable right now either… but if A) they start producing Roadsters and B) only produce Roadsters and abandon other projects, they would probably be profitable by 2010. No glory in that, though
Ryan: Everybody agrees that ‘whole-life of the car’ batteries are the way to go but it could be some time before they’re available as it could be some time before we get 500-mile batteries. Everybody is presumably trying their hardest and Tesla is getting closer than anyone else, but there’s still a long way to go. In the meantime it would be good to have a stop-gap measure that will make the general public feel more secure when buying an EV. I think the TH!NK lease is not a bad idea but if you’re right about their pricing it won’t succeed, obviously. I guess the market will force them to lower the price or come up with a new business model. Or go bust, of course!
I realise that re-testing would be required for the Smart, or any other converted vehicle, but I think it would make a good platform in much the same way that the Elise made a good basic platform for the Tesla Roadster. I wasn’t suggesting that Tesla should do it themselves but that they should sell the ESS to Kimber or whoever it is that now has the Smart. It’s a smaller and even lighter car presumably than the Elise, so a smaller ESS would do the trick. It could be a great little premium roadster for europe in much the same way that the Tesla is for the US.
I don’t really buy the “can’t afford any distractions” argument. I know they are incredibly busy right now but just a few months ago they set up TEG and appointed a head honcho, with the specific aim of selling ESSs to other electric car companies. Now they’re rowing back from that position and it would be nice to know why. Unless it is some problem in manufacturing the ESS itself I can’t see why supplying outside companies should be put on hold.
Timo wrote on October 24th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
> How an earth we don’t have all short range local traffic buses electric already???
To cover your 640km (400mi) per day I estimate you need perhaps 15(!) ESS’s. Remember that moving a bus around requires much more energy than moving a roadster! Much more, as in 10 times more or so. Then to increase the range from 400km (245mi) to 640km (400mi), that’s another 50% extra. 15 ESS’s at an estimated $30000 each = $450000. Ouch.
For the solution for electric busses read Wikipedia’s article on the trolleybus.
# Raymond Michiels wrote on October 29th, 2007 at 5:08 am
##Timo wrote on October 24th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
##> How an earth we don’t have all short range local traffic buses electric already???
## To cover your 640km (400mi) per day I estimate you need perhaps 15(!) ESS’s.
This can’t be true. It would take that much energy to accelerate bus as fast as Roadster, but just rolling in road is nowhere that much. Difference in energy consume in cruising speed is only CdA and rolling resistance difference. Those resistances are higher but not _that_ much higher. CdA causes about five times as much resistance in 60mph as it would for Roadster. At slower speeds this drops compared to Roadster, so in usual local traffic bus that doesn’t affect quite so much. Power to compensate air drag at average speed of the bus (assumed 40km/h) is only about 4.5kW. Or 11.5kW / 100km. 640 km would then use only about 67.5kW.
(oddly low figure. But I did recalculated this several times)
Other resistances are harder to estimate, but again those can’t be that much.
This is visible in gasoline consumption of the Bus. 50l/100km is about five or six times normal car city consumption. Not ten to fifteen times that. And unlike gasoline cars Tesla Roadster got bigger range in city traffic than in highway, so I expect same to happen with bus too,
Bus is heavier, so it would take more energy accelerate but OTOH it can also regenerate more energy by regenerative braking. There is more momentum to slow down. That is why total energy loss compared to Roadster can’t be that much.
## Remember that moving a bus around requires much more energy than moving
## a roadster! Much more, as in 10 times more or so. Then to increase the range
## from 400km (245mi) to 640km (400mi), that’s another 50% extra. 15 ESS’s at
## an estimated $30000 each = $450000.
I don’t believe it would be 15 but it might well be more than three or four as I estimated. Five is a lot and seven is way too much.
There is a more severe problem with life cycle of the battery which I didn’t consider in my earlier post. If you drive 650 km in a day you get around 300*650 in a year. That is nearly two hundred thousand kilometers. You would have to change batteries every year. And _that_ costs a lot of money no matter how you calculate it.
Overall, I wouldn’t consider myself a car enthusiast, but I am definitely a computer geek and technology enthusiast. I’m not “green”, but I’m tired of gasoline. And I LOVE the TESLA, as an idea, as a technology, as an eyecandy…the whole package. And besides what Roger has said about roadsters, the Tesla’s mileage constraint is a halibut for me.
Some info about me. I currently drive a Mazda Miata and actually a 1996 model (which is quite a bit smaller than the more recent models — that exact model/year was my “first love” when I was little). As you all know, Miatas are tiny little roadsters meant for fun. Of course, they are much more affordable and have much less torque than Tesla or even Porche and BMW models, but they are very reliable and of course they have the looks
So yeah, arguably, one may say a Miata’s usage may be more relaxed than the overprotective usage of a more expensive roadster, like Tesla etc…but still…
I bought my Miata about 3 years ago slightly used, with just 48k miles. It now has over 140k miles in it! Most of this mileage was put on it due to my frequent long-distance trips (~425 miles each direction). I also use this car when I go shopping and, mind you, I always buy in bulk! Between its trunk and the passenger seat, I can fit enough groceries, frozen goods, and other supplies for a whole month! I want to buy a sporty car because I enjoy its looks and general fun associated with such cars. This doesn’t mean I won’t use such a car for my everyday needs…and I particularly do not agree that one should have 2 cars just so he/she can enjoy the car he/she really wants. The next car I buy will just replace my Miata. I still expect it to look sharp, travel long, and if it has limitted trunk, I’ll still use the front seat for extra temporary storage.
So…the fact that I will run out of juice half the way through my usual trip is a big bummer. Not to mention that if I somehow estimated my mileage incorrectly and found myself far from home with dangerously low mileage, I’d have no place to recharge…unless I manage to convice a local resident to lend some electricity to a complete stranger…
Finally, let’s say that the Tesla’s battery limitations are acceptable. What about the sedan? Surely, it’s larger body will allow for a larger battery, but how much larger? You wouldn’t want a battery that weights 2000lb, would you? Yet it’d need to move a larger body, with many more groceries and many more passengers…that’s a lot of weight to move! Also, people WILL want a sedan to serve as replacement for their current vehicle, and people WILL want to take some roadtrips on such a sedan. Naturally, it’d be unfair to limit the lifestyle of sedan drivers to no roadtrips just because the batteries can’t handle it and it’d be strange to expect that people will buy an electric sedan and still keep around a gasoline sedan for longer trips (of course, for me personally the same is true for the roadster as well).
Of course, I also do understand that mileage limitations should NOT impose constraints on development of these cars. Doing so will result in a slipery slope and kill any hopes for future developments. On the other hand, continuing development, even within the constraints, may encourage research on better battery technologies built specifically for use in electric cars. I guess that is what Tesla Motors is doing. And I understand this point of view fully well. I just find it sad that people need to buy electric cars as their second cars and keep conventional cars around, instead of just fully being able to replace older vehicles.
This surely makes the market smaller and thus expansion (like recharge stations, service shops, etc etc) slower…
Timo, the 15 ESS’s for your 640km/400mi city bus is perhaps on the high side.
However:
- 5x less fuel efficiency means 5 EES’s for the same range
- the 60% range increase costs you a factor of 1.6 no matter what
This gives you a minimum of 8 ESS’s for your 640km/400mi city bus. Lots of braking as buses do (regen is only 60% effectivy in recuperating lost kinetic energy; buses brake more than the usual EPA-city cycle) will only increase this figure.
On the bright side: for a bus it may be possible to work with old ESS’s already having 1000+ cycles on them! Such an ESS would still have 70-80% of its original capacity but will probably sell for (far?) less than 50% of the original price.
Timo, we are going to recycle used Tesla ESS’s for city buses! Want to start a company?
PS: Please keep this a secret; we don’t want any competition this early on…
RE: Paris,
Paris, I too drive a 1999 Mazda Miata and it’s a awesome car but, it really is not fun on long trips. Just 2 weeks ago I took my first 6 hour driving drip to San Francisco (3 hours there and 3 hours back) and i really don’t want to take the Miata again. Its very small and cramped, very little room for luggage, and a rough ride because its a sports car. I too conceder myself a car enthusiast. I would hands down buy the Tesla Roadster if I could refinance my house and get $100,000 in cash but understanding that its; 1) New Technology, 2) Luxury Sports Car (not meant to be a grocery hauler or errand runner), 3) and a fun Pleasure car (not a commuter). Same goes if your slapping down $100K on a Porsche 911 Turbo or a new Ferrari.
I too hope the WhiteStar is much like a Lexus or a Mercedes but I’m not going to complain if it still has the 250 mile limit. If we don’t like it, then just don’t buy it. Just like if you don’t want a diesel fuel car then buy a gas or flex fuel. Please remember that these cars are the First ever to go main stream production and will be expensive and limited at first. In Ten years it will be much better, but please don’t complain about all the little things along the way.
# Raymond Michiels wrote on October 31st, 2007 at 12:00 am
## Timo, the 15 ESS’s for your 640km/400mi city bus is perhaps on the high side.
## However:
## - 5x less fuel efficiency means 5 EES’s for the same range
This might be lower in reality just because ICE-powered bus wouldn’t get anything back, and is used with worst possible way imaginable for fuel efficiency. Comparable electric engine efficiency would be much better at this situation. But it would still be at least four I guess. 4*1.6 = 6.4
## - the 60% range increase costs you a factor of 1.6 no matter what
## This gives you a minimum of 8 ESS’s for your 640km/400mi city bus.
Sounds bad, doesn’t it. Battery tech needs to get cheaper and smaller
.Just calculated again the energy cost savings. Even with eight battery packs for 640km you get 8*53kWh=424kWh => 66.25kWh / 100km. 1kWh costs about 7 cents, so for 200000 km that would be 66.25*0.07*2000 = 9275 euros . Lets make that round 10000. 8 Battery packs cost about 8*15000 euros (20000$) = 120000 =>130000 euros for one set of battery packs and energy.
Now for ICE: 50l/100km with diesel cost of 1 euros. That’s simple= 50 * 2000 = 100000.
So if diesel gets 1.3 times as expensive as it is now and that battery pack does last about 300 charges without need for change that scenario starts to pay off. Not yet, but maybe soon. With six ESS it is even match.
This is purely diesel vs ESS+electricity. There might be other savings in oil and maintenance that turns this in EV:s favor.
How about flywheels? Bus is massive so flywheel gyroscopic effect should affect it much less than it does for sedan, Is cheaper (AFAIK) than Tesla-like ESS and it doesn’t need replacement as fast. I don’t know what kind of noise those generate, would it be practical? Has it been tested?
Robert,
Its seat envelopes my back’s curves more perfectly than highly-adjustable seats of expensive cars (like a sedan lexus and jag I used to drive in the past). I don’t know…perhaps I’m just wierd 
That’s why those engineers are getting paid the big bucks, right? 
Actually I find the Miata to be my most comfortable ride so far, for long distances. My 425mi drives are 6h each direction and I have no problems with them
Anyhow, I can definitely turn a blind eye on a 245mi limit for a sports car (though it completely discourages me, personally, from buying it). But it’s a lot harder to turn a blind eye on a sedan. For a sedan, I would certainly much rather have a 2700+ lb set of batteries occupying whatever space is required (as long as their weight is balanced and doesn’t affect the drive) and be able to go 500 or more miles on a full charge, than have a light sedan that can accelerate faster, has some extra trunk space, but is unable to take me and my family on a trip.
Don’t get me wrong…I’m not really complaining about this. The technology is awesome already and definitely a big jump from other alternatives. However, if a large section of the population does not buy such cars due to some “little” inconveniences and sources of hesitation, I’m afraid it won’t become popular enough to gain the necessary support from retailers, service/engineers, and researchers outside Tesla Motors. For example, electric cars are probably the most ideal in highly populated areas that suffer the most from polution. High density areas tend to have many condos and apartments in tall buildings instead of houses with garages. Getting a 20ft cable from your car out to your outlet at the 5th floor of a building becomes impossible. I can forsee future parking-lots having an electric line ready to be used for recharging your car while it’s parked, but this won’t happen any time soon…definitely nobody will spend money on such an infrastructure before electric cars are widely popularized. This is just an example of a 3rd party (outside Tesla Motors) that might be developed only if electric cars are popular to the general public. So, while what Tesla Motors is doing is GREAT, it is up to Tesla and the other similar pioneers to make the options appealing to the general-purpose public and make them popular. Sure, it’s easier said than done, but so was the building of an electric car that does 0-60 in less than 4s
Tesla’s CO2 emissions are superbly low, and Martin Eberhard and the other guys have done a great job in this area with the Roadster. I also am a great fan of your paper “The 21st Century Electric Car”. But the problem is that fuel and energy consumption and CO2 emissions are only one half of the story. The other half is the fuel, energy and C02 emissions required to make electric or gas cars in the first place. Then one could calculate the “total emissions of ownership” for particular circumstances. Only when this is known can an enlightened green consumer decide on the best time to replace a serviceable gas car with a green electric model (in my case 6 years old but still giving around 32 mpg US).
I know it is not easy to give the energy costs for building something as complex as a car, but an estimate with a range would probably suffice for most people. I heard that one UK company spent $1.5m working this out for two of their products. Most likely it would be impossible to do this for the Roadster right now. But could you bear this in mind when planning for White Star as you probably have enough time for this model.
That way Tesla Motors would continue to set the standard for green cars and set the ground rules for the discussions that are bound to take place in the future on total CO2 emissions.
Technopete: Any EV should have a much lower parts count than any gasoline engined car and a very much lower moving parts count. As an academic exercise it might be interesting for geeks to work out the emissions for the production of any given car but, all other things being equal, it must surely be the case that EVs will generate far lower emissions in their production than any equivalent-sized gasoline car.
Again, as a general rule, it would normally be better, in environmental terms, if everybody kept the cars they had and just reduced their mileage as much as possible. But where’s the fun in that? If you really want to save the planet, work close to home, use a bicycle or a light motorcycle whenever you can, never fly anywhere, stop buying goods from China and get all your food from locally-grown sources. If everybody actually did this we’d probably cause the new ice age they were worried about in the 70s and then we’d have to figure out how to get much more CO2 into the atmosphere to warm the world up a bit! Yes….duh….I am kidding!
When is Tesla going to give the guys at Top Gear a go at the roadster? Greens could win a decisive victory in convincing Clarkson EV’s are the future…
Thanks for that post. Loved it!
Has anyone taken delivery of one of these cars yet? Who has one in their garage? Who is a registered owner, anyone?
This whole series of articles has been great. It reminds me of an interview I recently watched. It is with the president of Mindshare and Fox. Some pretty cool points about customer service are made. I hope someone else enjoys it!