|
Michael “Flea” Balzary likes to break new ground. With band mates Red Hot Chili Peppers, he pioneered funk metal, a sound that marries aspects of funk and hip-hop with traditional rock. He applied the same innovative spirit to his ride and now holds a reservation for a 2008 model year Tesla Roadster. In October, as part of our ongoing customer drive program, Michael got behind the wheel of our prototype Tesla Roadster. What follows is his feedback from the driving experience. As always, customer drive opinions are unedited by Tesla Motors.
Michael gets a first look at the Tesla Roadster
Well, a couple of years ago i saw an article in the paper about this new fangled electric car called the Tesla Roadster. I got all excited about it, having always wanted an electric car, but it seemed a little pricey and i was saving money for something and was on the fence about it.
About a year after that, while sitting in a hotel room on tour somewhere, i saw the film “who killed the electric car?”….. the second the film ended, in a fit of inspiration, much to my wife’s chagrin, i went online and plunked down the dough and purchased a Tesla Roadster. Now, one could say this was an impulsive act, buying a car, sight unseen, on pure hearsay, much of it from the makers of the car themselves.
However, in my desire to pollute less, and knowing i was gonna be running on solar power in my new house and could charge it with solar, i thought, wow, i can drive CLEAN and contribute less to unbalancing the already unbalanced environment we live in, a lack of balance that could spell certain doom for us all!
So then nearly a year goes by, and still no car, i started to get a little antsy, still excited, but wondering if Tesla might actually be the name of some farmland i bought on an island off of nova scotia somewhere….
Then last week, a nice fella from Tesla shows up near my house here, in california. The car he has got with him looks cool as hell. BEAUTIFUL, but not pompous or show offy arrogant at all, just looks like a cool car.
I get into it and pull away from the curb……dead silence wow!!!!…. man it was unbelievable. it drove like nothing i have ever been in before, made my porsche feel like a golf cart! It took off like a rocket ship, handled so sensitively, it was just amazing and fun and thrilling. I am so happy i went with my gut and bought that car. Yeah it is a long wait, but man, the thing is awesome. The silence makes ya feel like you are floating, and it just rocks, it was the funnest car, i have ever been in, with the possible exception of Hillel Slovak’s Datsun B210 in 1979, he was the only guy i knew who had a car, and we listened to lot of zeppelin in there….
To enjoy driving as much as is possible in that Tesla, and to pollute nothing, no emissions, into the air, is a great great feeling.
Posted in the categories: Company, On the Road
The spelling… the grammar… so undeniably human
Hopefully there are many more celebrity blogs to come.
Wow. I need to get a job at Tesla now so I can be apart of this change in history. Whats funny is that I had to read two times when I saw that Mike had to think about buying a tesla. If I was a rich and famous person, I would buy like 7. One for each day of the week or maybe one of each color.
So we know who the celebs are in La when you see them creaping up on you in a totally quite sports car.
Now you just need to talk the rest of the band and all of your friends into buying one. Blood Sugar Sex Magik - Best album ever.
“made my porsche feel like a golf cart!” that’s a hell of a statement…especially because its true.
I had a B-210 -make that “have” ( in storage-yes , it will be a classic some day). It’s a ‘74 , fastback, yellow-the preferred color, of course, for that car-a fun car in its way, and very reliable-over 250,000 miles an no problems except carb. rebuild. Tesla must shoot for “B-210 reliability”-yes, yes: it should be do-able-especially since the venerable B-210’s cost $3600 new.
Right on, “Flea”. Dig your music, dig your car.
Flea! Flea! Flea!
Has there been one person who has driven or ridden in this car that did not like it? The only thing wrong with the Tesla Roadster is that obnoxious men who rev their engines to impress women out of their league do not have this option anymore. Wait a minute, this is a drawback?
Keep the list of celebrities rolling. When Flea pulls up to the Grammy’s or MTV Awards next year in his Roadster, the word will get out.
Brian
I pulled up a wikipedia explanation of the Kalman filter Anatoly talked about in prior blog…… halibutin’ mother of cod. I can’t believe that ( a long time ago) I actually somehow got A’s & B’s in college calculus & physics courses. Human beings are incredibly clever -make that some few human beings, count me out of that equation.
P.S. to above, re. Kalman filters, tranmission gears,etc. : here’s a question (dumb or otherwise, most likely the former)- are gears still needed ? - gears are a way of two discs gripping each other - how about two discs with faces coated with the “gear-like mechanical” equivalent of velcro? -continuous grip, with no “meshing of gear teeth problem”. When one “gear face” contacts the other, it’s immediate grip, no slip, no gear teeth synching required. At the new nano level, maybe, would super grip like this be possble? -like some super -clinging and super durable velcro. How long have gears been around anyway?- greek, roman times ? -since before Da Vinci, that I know. One day they will be history, won’t they?
Given the style of the above, I kept waiting for Flea to say, “Wrote a song about it. Wanna hear it? Here it go!”
What kind of funk metal song would suit a Tesla Roadster? Maybe someday, we’ll find out.
Guess the leverage factor of gear teeth is where it’s at- any way to get that without the “lever arm” via nano-strength material (with also low friction) ? Another layman-variety question: what about an electronic sensor centered on each of the teeth of one gear and other sensors on each of the adjoining gear’s “troughs”. Whenever they align, then whatever the mechanism is that drops the gears together engages-fast-or would it not be possible to get a mechanism that would engage this fast , need to slow down motor for split second instead? -or a combo of sensors & this? Power the low-power sensors with that remote power process-induction is it?
T.J.
I’m not a Mechanical Eng., but I am taking a break from my Mircoelectromechanical Systems homework to answer this:
a) any time you hear the word “nano” you are talking vaporware. The *smallest* useful parts on commercially used MEMS today are on the order of 2 microns. That’s 2000 times larger than a nanometer.
b) think about what would happen at the point where the “nano velctro” disengages. If you have increased the friction between the discs, you’ve increased the energy used at the interface, and decreased the efficiency of the system. What you really want is a system where there is NO friction, yet the discs somehow turn together anyway.
Brandon
I agree, the statement “Makes my Porsche feel like a golf cart” just warms my heart. I’ve been pulling for Tesla for a while, and this sort of thing makes me feel justified about ‘bragging’ to my friends about what an awesome car the Roadster is.
Jim
#
T.J. wrote on November 6th, 2007 at 10:22 pm
P.S. to above, re. Kalman filters, tranmission gears,etc. : here’s a question (dumb or otherwise, most likely the former)- are gears still needed ? - gears are a way of two discs gripping each other - how about two discs with faces coated with the “gear-like mechanical” equivalent of velcro? -continuous grip, with no “meshing of gear teeth problem”. When one “gear face” contacts the other, it’s immediate grip, no slip, no gear teeth synching required. At the new nano level, maybe, would super grip like this be possble? -like some super -clinging and super durable velcro. How long have gears been around anyway?- greek, roman times ? -since before Da Vinci, that I know. One day they will be history, won’t they?
Yep, dumb question. Discs that mesh face to face are not gears since they will always turn at the same rate. Gears are meant to change the rotation speed of their respective shafts. Face to face discs are used for clutches.
We are incorporating the age of technology with the space age. Things now are exciting!!! I couldn’t thank you enough for changing the world, our future. I read all the time about how much batteries are advancing. There is new (old) information how to create electricity from water using carbon cells. Any word on how advanced that is yet?
I agree with Jim, nano is an overused word. However if you want to get a grant or push a project it’s a nice word to have. Most people I’ve worked with or for would agree that what you reall mean is “really small particles” and not really 10^-9. First time I’ve worked with “nano” carbons was in 01 and since then it’s a lot more common.
Other then that, make us proud Tesla!
I really like the “idea ” of electric autos. But only a small persentage of folks that commute every day will be able to afford a roadster. How about a EV for the regular guy that isn’t a “Rock STAR”
The Car Sounds Wonderful!
Worth mentioning though,,,,
These cars like several other non elec.cars are too QUIET…
YEP… Here in Bklyn, I almost stepped out into a cars path because it was SO QUIET…
SOOOooo Maybe,, the builders of these Excellent Vehicles and thier owners,,,
might consider… an option to make the car noisy (reasonalbly so) make ‘em noisy at the flick of a switch…
Or have speakers mounted in the front to hear,,, “Give It Away Now”… That would be VERY smart and helpful for pedestrians in the city and deers in the country… Or at the flick of a switch… have a sound like playing cards in the spokes of yer Bike!
I’m Just Sayin… Make ‘em HEARD…. When Needed.
To all who participate in this blog:
Since Tesla has lowered the cash downpayment to order or reserve a Roadster have any of you been convinced to place your reservation?
I have and I am willing to order/reserve mine today!
Cheers
I keep seeing lots of complaints about how quiet electric cars are, and how it’s bad for pedestrians. The only people who should be complaining about that are blind. If you have eyes, you can always look for cars. If you’re blind, then petition the government for walk/don’t walk signals to make sound. They do on campus at UTexas, and in all the euro cities I’ve been to, but not always in cities here. That would help tremendously.
If all else fails, give it 10 years (so basically by the time electric cars start becoming really popular) and we’ll have robots for blind people that are way better than dogs. and 30 years there will be no blind people, because someone will figure how to make artificial eyes.
# James Amderson Merritt wrote on November 6th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
## What kind of funk metal song would suit a Tesla Roadster? Maybe someday, we’ll find out.
Perhaps a bit on the cheesy side, but somehow I think Jean Michel Jarre tunes might suit the Tesla drive.
Perhaps “Magnetic Fields” : www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvC95d5MGfo
# Robert wrote on November 7th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
## I really like the “idea ” of electric autos. But only a small persentage of folks
## that commute every day will be able to afford a roadster. How about a EV for
## the regular guy that isn’t a “Rock STAR”
This comes up every now and then. Tesla plan is to sell expensive sports car to make money, then use that money to make more affortable sedan and then use that money to make even more affortable car for rest of the people.
When you read about “whitestar” in here it is that “more affordable sedan”. Current consensus seems to be that it will be around $60k car, which isn’t too expensive as a (quite luxury but practical) family sedan. Third stage car is supposed to be around $30k, but I have no idea how they are going to get ESS price so low that that can be done. It requires a lot cheaper/kWh batteries than Roadster is using.
Tesla should put that “master plan” somewhere in FAQ or something for everybody to see.
Bill Trotter> These cars like several other non elec.cars are too QUIET…
ross> I keep seeing lots of complaints about how quiet electric cars are, and how it’s bad for pedestrians.
This “too quiet” thing is becoming a troll epidemic - a complete red herring that attention starved people are throwing out in a desperate attempt to maintain the status quo.
I will be the first to disable any artificial noise device.
J in MN
Dirk Derr: I can easily afford the $5000 reservation payment… but I’d have problems coming up with the rest… and then the insurance bills… yeah, I’m not going to be a Tesla customer for a while yet unless I can convince George Clooney that I’m his long lost son.
I just found out this morning about this beautiful car! No way in heck that we could afford it, but it excites me to no end that there is a vehicle being produced for the public with no emissions! We had a Prius now for almost 2 years and we love it. But we decided our next vehicle would have to be all electric. I hope greed finds a backseat to reality soon. Hopefully these won’t be recalled after a year or so to be destroyed because competitors prefer a blind eye. ( I apologize for the run on sentence Ryan. )
There is a switch you can activate to make it noisy, it’s a pushbutton built into the middle of the steering wheel. It’s commonly referred to as the “horn”. Handy for warning pedestrians who can’t figure out how to look before stepping out into the road.
How do these people handle crossing the street when there is a loud truck going by, or (heaven forbid) a train?
Keith
#Dirk Derr wrote on November 7th, 2007 at 5:52 pm
#To all who participate in this blog:
#Since Tesla has lowered the cash downpayment to order or reserve a Roadster have any of you been convinced to place your reservation?
I# have and I am willing to order/reserve mine today!
Nope, I’m all about sharing the fun. Give me the 4 door 5 seater Whitestar. My money is waiting for the day I can plunk it down for a whitestar reservation.
funky car, for a funky man, smart choice flea.
kinda reminds me, too look at, of the lotus elise we get here in the uk.
I am seriously considering getting on the waiting list. I think this car is great.
However, I must take issue with the “no emissions” comment so many people make. It all depends on where you get your electricity. Unless you are getting clean power from hydro-electric, geo-thermal, nuclear, or similar source, your car is generating emissions - you’ve just moved the location of the dirty air.
Tesla could offset some of those emissions by generous use of old growth wood in its interior paneling and decor. Wood is one of the most efficient ways for humans to sequester carbon, and when that old growth forest is chopped down and replaced with new growth, a new cycle of aggressive carbon sequestration takes place in the new trees.
So the combination of electric efficiency (potentially cleaner, if not charging from a coal-fired plant), and sequestering of carbon in the form of old growth forest wood in the decor and new growth replacement trees in the forest, should be pretty darn good for the environment!
Just don’t get too cocky about being emission free in the mean time - there is usually no free lunch, and even Tesla drivers will be polluters…
Out stumpin’ for the oil industry I see. Probably cheney’s son or something, getting a little scared, just itching to spread as much disinformation as possible while you still can, eh? Can’t wait until the last rain forest tree is chopped down I guess? If you bothered to read the article, flea said flat out his next house will be run on solar. When is the last time you heard the sun was causing pollution? You may wish to further educate yourself on green and notice we now have zero emission coal plant technology available. Not everywhere just yet, but even folks like you going to be able to stop it. Even old technology coal fired electricity is less polluting than your war mongering dependency on crude. And the more we inevitably transition away from your fascism based crude to renewables, such as solar or wind, (weather it’s on your house or from the grid), electric cars are the only vehicles that get actually cleaner over time.
Even without adding any new power plants, the existing U.S. electrical grid has sufficient capacity to fully fuel three quarters of the nation’s 217 million passenger vehicles, assuming the average car drives 33 miles per day. This integration of hybrid cars with the electric power grid could reduce gasoline consumption by 85 billion gallons per year. That’s equal to a 27% reduction in total U.S. greenhouse gases, 52% displacement potential of U.S. oil imports, and $270 billion avoided in gasoline expenses! Free lunch would be solar and wind, once infrastructures are in place. Let’s take our heads out of the sand and realize the inevitable.
That’s it. I’m moving to the US.
Flea. is. awesome.
@ Mr. Balzary: Great to hear you so like the car! That comment about it making the Porsche feel lame in comparison is exciting.
@ Keith Hearn: Horn! LOL! Nice response to those ninnies. Who runs into the street without looking first?! Talk about lazy (and stupid!)
@ nit picker and all the other “yer jest movin’ d’pulooshun!” people: READ THE WHITEPAPERS before you talk! www.teslamotors.com/display_data/twentyfirstcenturycar.pdf Many other sites and research bodies have gone over this issue as well. I won’t give away the surprise…You’ll just have to read the 10 pages yourself.
@ Editor: perhaps the blog page layout should be set to automatically include links to the most-FAQs as the first post?
Do you live underground? Cause there is an option for solar panels to be installed on the roof of your garage which should give you enough clean electricity for all your Tesla driving needs. And even if you do get your electricity from the dirtiest coal plant in America, the environmental impact is still much less than that of a gasoline.
The Tesla Roadster doesn’t produce any emissions, it doesn’t even have a tailpipe!
Any issues with the way that electrical power is generated should be taken up with the power company. Trying to pin power plant emissions on Tesla is a bit like trying to pin the Exxon Valdez disaster on GM. The responsibility arrow just doesn’t point that direction.
Re: Hydrogen Fuel cells
In case anyone is interested Ballard - the hydrogen fuel cell pioneering company up here in BC - has just sold out to Daimler/Ford after “disapointing sales”. The company will still continue research into the HFC but for more “commercial” applications.
Peter J Hedge
Victoria, BC
Sounds like a great car, and he sounds like a great guy. But there is no ultimate solution at this point:
From where does the electricity come that charges the car? From a coal power plant? Nuclear power? Wind power (more exciting if it doesn’t kill raptor birds. Maybe they have worked that out?) Geothermal? Tides? Everything has a cost. Still it is nice that the electric car itself doesn’t pollute and is a “bomb”. I wouldn’t mind driving one.
Awesome….
Now I wish I can buy one for 20k and not have to spend 100k
While we are at it a 2-300k totally solar home to go with.
Can this handle a Chicago winter? New york? The South? Rural roads?
I am a greedy s.o.b. I want that technology in a minivan so I can tool around with 6 or 7 folks not poluting the earth.
Also… are the battery components safe? I just unloaded a bunch of batteries my company used and I had to put in quite bit of effort to have the material recycled properly
No point in saving the air and ruining the soil
I love the car…. I’d be willing to spend a grand to rent one to drive across america on vacation! Technology rocks! And then I can say… “we’d love to take you kids but you wouldnt fit… too bad so sad”
Cool.
Surely, it is only a matter of time before the Tesla Raodster becomes the next “celebrity car” in the “green” car world.
Right on Flea, trying to get my dad to let go of his porsche and get a Tesla
Great music, inspiration for my band (in making)
oh yea u guys need to play another show in L.A. Last time I saw u at the forum amazying; best night ever
Suggestion for the Roadster options: How about offering Tesla installed LoJack? I am sure the local LoJack folks are unfamiliar with all that electrical power. Or will you be training those folks to do the installation? I think I might want to have this installed when my Tesla roadster becomes available.
Cheers,
# Sean wrote
# @ Editor: perhaps the blog page layout should be set to automatically include links to the most-FAQs as the first post?
Great idea. Alongside the blog overview, think, touch, feel and hear tabs have a couple of links to the FAQs and Whitepapers.
Since the Tesla Roadster only has two gears, Tesla should have designed in a continuously variable transmission (CVT), which remains in first gear from 0 - 6,000 rpm, then holds at 6,000 rpm as it slides from first to second gear, then stays in 2nd gear from 6,000 rpm and up, to maximize the driving speed range over which the vehicle has maximum torque.
Hey Flea!
Congrats on the new environmentally safe wheels! Sounds like an awesome drive for an awesome musician and bass player. Have fun and drive safe! Best, Matt
NICE TO SEE THAT YOUR COMPANY HAS COMPLETELY RIPPED OFF THE LOTUS ELISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
I just read about 2 things happening in the green energy world: 1). Calif. is suing the fed. govt. to get the EPA to grant a “waiver” so that Calif. can force the car companies to lower c02 emissions. Since the Supreme Court ruled that manmade c02 IS a pollutant, the EPA doesn’t have a leg to stand on. But still the car companies are fighting Calif.-saying it will cause them economic harm-as if they haven’t done that to themselves all these decades past (compared to foreign auto companies)-what a bunch of halibuts deleted. Right there is a big reason to choose Tesla Sports Sedan over a GM Volt, even though more expensive . Many segments of large- scale corp. America have a nasty habit of being a bunch of lying, manipulating weasels-and till the bitter end on top of it. 2). I read where Reid & Pelosi are about to scrap investment tax credit in the energy bill for solar & other green energy-apparently to appease the members of congress in the pocket of abovementioned corp. America. I looked into getting solar on my house, but since my elect . power use is very low , and the IRS & power co. rebates are not enough, basically it made no sense- I’d just be doing the environ. a favor (and with my low power use, not much of a favor). If the incentves were doubled-which is exactly where they should be, THEN we’d be talking. Therefore I am waiting 3 years until Tesla Sedan comes out, by which time Nanosolar & other cheaper solar should be available for home use, at much reduced cost- I hope-and the meager incentives part of it won’t matter. On the subject of Tesla transmission (transmissions in general)- I wonder: is anyone toying with gears that have less friction than steel ? - or I’m guessing it probably doesn’t matter unless you have some large, complicated system of gears (not transmission)-anyway: would ceramic or carbon fiber or other material gears have less friction-never heard of such gears. I heard that ceramic can be stronger than steel & lighter. But I guess the benefits would be too slight to make any difference in a transmisson.
P.S. above : well, since weight is really a premium on EV’s -maybe a ceramic gear transmission (one day) isn’t off the wall-in a ceramic or carbon fiber case ?
A few years ago I read where advanced ceramics might be used in all sorts of applications-wonder what’s up with ceramics now re. cost, weight, strength ? -maybe could be used in many places-like steering & window mechanisms, seat frames , wheels, ,floor pans, battery system frame , nuts, bolts , wiggle pins - maybe adding all up to a significant weight savings for EV use.
Nice comment, Paul. Great research you did on it as well. For you further reading enjoyment, might I recommend this blog?
www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=7
I’m an Albuquerque resident with a shovel, hammer, calculator and a sack lunch wanting to help build the Whitestar plant. Please let me know when I can take it on.
seriously………
# Paul wrote
# NICE TO SEE THAT YOUR COMPANY HAS COMPLETELY RIPPED OFF THE LOTUS ELISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
So?
Lotus Cars is assembling the Tesla Roadster at their plant in Hethel in the UK under contract to Tesla Motors. Tesla Motors has also hired Lotus Engineering for certain design and engineering tasks. The body was designed by Lotus’s Barney Hatt.
My guess is that Lotus are more than happy to have such a revolutionary car reminding people of their other vehicles and advertising their engineering and design.
Wonderful car, pity it isn’t sold anywhere else. would like to see it built in Canada. Oh yeah, there are rich people here too, now that the looney is going to be 1.10 or higher…..Seriously though, if you are looking for a site to build just email me the footprint size. Would like to see also an affordable version for everybody so we can make a real change globally. Maybe start with a van and promote carpooling. You have an incredible market just ready to be tapped. Holy Halibut , lets get this started!
Paul wrote on November 10th, 2007 at 9:50 am
NICE TO SEE THAT YOUR COMPANY HAS COMPLETELY RIPPED OFF THE LOTUS ELISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
Last I read , the car is being built by lotus..
The Tesla was developed in conjunction with Lotus.
—-
Editor’s Answer: From the FAQ
Q: What is your relationship with Lotus?
A: Lotus Cars is assembling the Tesla Roadster under contract to Tesla Motors. Tesla Motors has also hired Lotus Engineering for certain design and engineering tasks.
Flea!!
Brazil Loves You!!
Come Back To Brazil, Please!!
Thanks =)
It would be interesting to get Consumer Reports view of the Tesla Roadster since it is based upon the Lotus Elise which Consumer Reports described as coming close to driving like a “go-cart”. Having a “cart” that really “goes” is a substantial statement and it appears that the Roadster does just that. However, is the cockpit too cramped ?
Now that is too wierd, I also just finished watching “Who Killed the Electric Car” , three things this film inspired me to do are as follows; never buy another GM product, purchase an electric vehicle and convert the house to solar power. Fortunately I was able to get a place in line, unfortunately I will more than likely see a Tesla until the fourth quarter of 2008. R.H.C.P. thank you for “Under the Bridge”, still rocks to this day!
From where does the electricity come that charges the car? From a coal power plant? Nuclear power? Wind power (more exciting if it doesn’t kill raptor birds. Maybe they have worked that out?) Geothermal? Tides ?
Space solar power satellite, for example. Completely clean, endless , abundant, predictable and reliable. Environmentally basically neutral.
Look it up, or read a book: Ben Bova’s “Powersat” would give a good intro, although its a work of fiction.
Or go to
spacesolarpower.wordpress.com/about/
In Driving the Roadster I thought that the cockpit had plenty of room for a sports car. It felt very comfortable to me. I am 6′ tall and weight 200 lbs. In fact the cockpit was more comfortable to me than my BMW M3 since it felt very secure and fit perfectly for my body. Great feeling of tightness from driving the car with no rattles and great agility to corner.
Paul wrote on November 10th, 2007 at 9:50 am
NICE TO SEE THAT YOUR COMPANY HAS COMPLETELY RIPPED OFF THE LOTUS ELISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
/I concur.. it was designed by Lotus…
Thanks for trolling though?
//cant afford it but i want it badly.
Yet another reason to like the RHCPs - Go Flea!!!
To those complaining about how an EV just “moves pollution to the power plants”, I thought I’d paste in this bit from the PG&E web site:
“On average, more than half of the electricity we deliver to customers comes from sources that emit no CO2, and an increasing amount comes from renewable sources of electricity. In 2006, the power mix we provided to our customers consisted of non-emitting nuclear generation (24 percent), large hydroelectric facilities (22 percent), and renewable resources (12 percent) such as wind, geothermal, biomass, and small hydro.”
From: www.pge.com/about_us/environment/features/clean_energy.html
(PG&E is the power company of Northern CA, and so will be supplying most of the power for the early Teslas.)
You both rock! (Tesla & RHCPs). I’m so excited about this co. “charging” ahead of Detroit who’ve been asleep at the wheel, even with their billions of dollars of public money, it took a startup to take the bull by the horns! You GO Tesla! Hopefully you can bring some of the assembly jobs to the U.S. to save on transporting the finished product in middleeast oil filled ships.
Flea, what a great and inspiring blog entry. It will be a beautiful day when roadsters hit the streets.
By the way, your performance of Snow at the 2007 Grammies was also great!
If you have the money to spend spend it smart go Flea
I decided to take on the nay sayers of battery cost
If a normal person has a normal car that gets roughly 22 miles per gal
and drives an average of 40 miles per day thats about 14600 miles a year
or about 664 gal of gasoline at the now over three dollars a gal thats $1990.00 a year in ten years one would pay
nearly $20,000.00 for gas. well see what i am getting at
the lithium batteries last ten years and with mass production the price will come down
right now its about even for cost but oil is running out there is only so much
also for you nuke people there is only so much uranium on the planet
it will become the next oil from other countries so stick to what is renewable no matter how ugly it is (wind powered )
and hydoelectric is good for the enviroment
wildlife floureshes around the lakes created.
just venting sorry….
The L. A. Auto Show will be starting in a couple of days. I was wondering if the car will be on display at all ????
—-
Editor’s Answer: Yes indeedy! Just like last year, we will be in the Yokohama booth. Sadly, unlike last year, The Editor will not be there.
some folks here may be interested in an actual affordable electric car from a major car manufacturer. here you go:
youtube.com/watch?v=U3u-AdX_Mhc ( Test ride video )
www.autobloggreen.com/category/mitsubishi/
More videos available on youtube, do a search on “miev”
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz “dreaming of new blog” zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Way to go Flea. Keep the blog updated when you finally get yours! I can just imagine the motor sound winding up and you cruising to “Readymade” all through the hills of LA.
Please tell us that your getting yours in Red
Bill Trotter wrote “that electric cars are too quiet.”
Apple will probably produce an ipod that will alert you of on coming objects that are possibly hazardous to your well being.
As a pedestrian, you should be aware of your surroundings….. we electric car drivers cannot be responsible for you!
There is way too much noise in this world already…..
Two completely different points:
1. On the low noise level, I have to say I have gained a bit of sympathy to the complaints, as just yesterday I was stepping out from behind some big SUV in a parking lot, and was startled by a Prius seemingly jumping out of nowhere. He was probably going a bit too fast for the lot, but it was still slow enough that he was likely on electric-only; I heard only wind and tire noise. Now I don’t know that a Camry or other modern gas-powered sedan would have made any more noise, but I’m realizing that this is a concern which we at least should not be dismissing out of hand.
2. On nuclear power (the fission variety): I see this energy source as kind of a “long-term temporary” thing. If it remains a significant component of the energy mix as it grows, it will help us keep the CO2 emissions down until the real alternatives (improved solar/geothermal/wind technologies/deployments, space-based solar, fusion(?)) can fully take over — maybe another century or so.
One key to that working well would be one of the newer developments in fission tech: fast-neutron reactors with pyrometallurgical reprocessing. Normal modern reactors only use about 5% of the material in their fuel rods; the other 95% is considered “waste.” This technique reverses those numbers, getting nearly 20x as much energy out of those same rods. As an added benefit, the 5% waste material decays to safe levels within 500 years rather than 10,000.
Pyrometallurgical reprocessing is much safer than current reprocessing methods, as it uses a molten salt as the solvent, rather than water (which has the danger of flash-boiling and causing explosions). It also avoids the danger of weapons proliferation, as the plutonium in the recycled fuel is mixed with all the other still-fissionable “waste” elements, and would require a whole other industrial process to separate out to form a usable weapon. Yes this material is still suitable as fuel for the fast-neutron reactor .
The upshot of this is that, if an existing fission facility upgraded to this technology, any on-site holding pools of “spent” fuel rods suddenly become a vast fuel source, perhaps sustaining the facility for many decades, without having to bring in any more newly-mined uranium. And its also a solution for what to do with the high-level nuclear “waste” we have currently.
Another record from the killacycle:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHtAkM3CYLA
www.killacycle.com/
..next year, 1000 HP of electric power!
futuredrive.wordpress.com/2007/11/12/on-the-scene-killacycle-breaks-its-own-world-record/
A123 cells have a brilliant future
soooooo cooooolio bra
awesome words speakin ’bout an awesome car named after da “man o d century” Nikola Tesla
Good ref of the film Who Killed the Electric Car - awsome film - by watchin the film i was so po’d to find in 1930 half of all cars were electric but were snuffed by the auto makers n oil cos.
…bla bla bla
anyway cool words Michael - love your music - rock onnnnn
(!)
dc
I prefer geothermal & solar to nuclear power.The former looks particularly good & simple & overlooked (since it operates 24/7 with no heat storage required, per thermal solar). The Bonnevile Environmental Foundation said a few days ago: “due to advancements in the solar industry and solar cell efficiency, the cost of Solar Green Tag product has dropped by nearly 40%. The U.S. solar cell production growth rate was around 33% in 2006 and market forecasts conclude that we will maintain that growth rate in 2007″ . I hope solar costs are significantly lower when Tesla sedan comes out (in about 3 years ?). Until then I’ll buy some solar green tags each year. Congress has changed its mind (for now) on canceling solar investment tax credit (after being deluged by complaints)-they will consider it again after thanksgiving break. If solar tech. & geothermal were military / war products we’d be swimming in solar cells & such power plants by now- $ 1 trillion, headed for $1.6 or even $3 ( if the con can be sustained for 10 more years) buys alot of green tech. It’s pretty easy to start a war in this country, but really, really hard to wind it down ,as usual, per plan- the last clever pre- planned worthless event (to us, not “them” … “and they know who they are, and they don’t look mahvelous”) being the decade ‘64 to ‘74.
##kert wrote on November 15th, 2007 at 3:51 am
##some folks here may be interested in an actual affordable electric car from a major car manufacturer.
##here you go:
##youtube.com/watch?v=U3u-AdX_Mhc ( Test ride video )
##www.autobloggreen.com/category/mitsubishi/
##More videos available on youtube, do a search on “miev”
Keep dreaming. The miev is not being produced yet.
“Who Killed the Electric Car” chalks up another sale for Tesla. Could a there possibly be a better promotional vehicle? Enjoy it Flea. Looking forward to seeing all the Teslas on the road soon.
To my fellow Tesla enthusiasts: The Tesla is ‘potentially’ emissions free. The next step to this awesomeness is to go solar. If you can afford the Tesla, you could very well afford the technology necessary to make it 100% pollution free. The federal government and state governments often award a lot of money towards the purchase of solar energy systems making it very much worth it for the day when terrorists take down the internet and black out the entire country. You will be sitting pretty. Most of the time you can even sell electricity that you produce but don’t use back to the electricity companies to offset the initial investment but then again you can always use that extra electricity to power your new Tesla that you’ll be driving around all day. You know you will.
To Paul: Nice to see that so far, the only negative comments I’ve seen posted about the Tesla are written by halibutin’ fools. Thanks Paul.
To Tesla: My significant other here may not be able to develop revolutionary sports cars but he is willing to be your Janitor.
Flea you’re awesome!!
We love you here in Argentina!!!
Come back to South America, please!!
miss u..
*Florencia*
The comments concerning a lack of room in the Tesla are wrong.
It will be lead acid for a while.
I have a Lotus Elise that I am converting to electric drive and once you are in it there is plenty of room (I am 6′ 2″).
I have to hand it toTesla for inspiring my imagination for this project when I read that they are making them here in the UK but not selling them here.
I will be on the road before your production cars although you will have a very polished car when it does arrive.
P.S.
I am not convinced with 7000 batteries. Old technology. Try the flexible Kokam LiPoly. Much easier to use and monitor as well as safe.
I will when I can sell the wife and kids to afford them
Keep up the good work. EV cars are the future!
##More videos available on youtube, do a search on “miev”
#Keep dreaming. The miev is not being produced yet.
Neither is Tesla Roadster or the much hyped GM Volt
Telsa expects to produce nothing in 2007 about 1000 cars in 2008.
Mitsu announced they are aiming for at least 1000 cars in 2009, with prototypes in fleet testing currently.
GM expects to ( maybe ) get production going in 2010, but likely 2011 ( Volt is announced as 2011 model year ) with MAYBE some mules on roads early 2008.
I would say, by comparison, Mitsu is maybe a year behind Tesla in getting to market, however, its entrant is way more appealing to masses due to being four times cheaper.
I doubt whether Tesla WhiteStar with its announced 60-70K price point be in prototype stage by then ?
“I would say, by comparison, Mitsu is maybe a year behind Tesla in getting to market, however, its entrant is way more appealing to masses due to being four times cheaper.”
Along with 1/3 the range (80mi), and less than 1/3 the acceleration (0-60 in 14 sec).
Though the wireless (microwave) recharger sounds very cool — if it’s not too lossy.
I doubt that mitsubishi will really mass produce the miev in 2009, or even 2010. They may come out with a few that they’ll lease. Let’s hope that I’m wrong. Let’s hope that Tesla’s success will force them to be true to their word.
#Along with 1/3 the range (80mi), and less than 1/3 the acceleration (0-60 in 14 sec).
Different cars for totally different market segments, priced accordingly. Do you expect a Porsche performance from Ford Ka ?
And IIRC, the latest quoted range for MiEV was more like 120 miles.
Now that the latest U.N. global warming report is out, the Tesla mavens in charge of fed. & state govt. lobbying should put on the full court press-now is the chance to line up major incentives for EV’s-not just token breaks. A $10,000 break on the cost of the future Tesla sports sedan would be quite appropriate, in a sensible system-maybe by the time the sedan comes out someone will have been able to slap some sense into “the system”-finally-but don’t count on it-something like half this country is basically worthless.
I was completely blown away “watching” you drive through Latigo Canyon in the Tesla Roadster. Who was behind the wheel that day? Your car almost seemed like it was gliding. LOL. Was it? The sound of the motor goes right through me. The roadster has incredible class. I’d pay just to go for a ride in one : D. Below is a link to Latigo Canyon in a Tesla Roadster. Enjoy!!!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Fbi1Ah19II
I haven’t seen any major press on Tesla at the LA Auto Show! How come? I saw that Road & Track had an article (online at least) on “all” the green cars there but not a mention of the greenest of all!! What’s up with your press presence all of a sudden??
Latest issue of U.S. News & World Report magazine has a big article on GM volt. Before that there was a similar article in Time (or was it Newsweek?-I forget). In both cases no mention of Tesla-roadster or sports sedan. They do mention Toyota and what they might secretly have planned to combat the Volt. Wonderful journalism going on here- “powers that be” style, as usual. Even a jr. high school newspaper journalist would have mentioned Tesla- could have done that in one sentence. They don’t want to mention Tesla -is the name of that game. As if only the fat cats like GM are qualified to set the agenda, and be made to look so great in the magazines-when in fact they’re basically foot-dragging, manipulating weasels who only do the right thing when they sense they’re being backed into a corner-by the govt. or the likes of Tesla & Toyota. They’re still trying to block Calif. from forcing them to raise their fuel mileage standards, and for years on end these same Volt -peddling heroes have been telling the fed. govt. “we can’t increase fuel mileage - would cost too much, jobs would be lost: wouldn’t be prudent”- an appropriate word that comes to mind re. GM is: “jerks”. In the same U.S. News. mag. is also this appropriate quote, re. what to do about global warming, from Brian Schweitzer , the governor of Montana: “Here’s a novel concept for congress: Do something. Anything. Move.”
“In both cases no mention of Tesla-roadster or sports sedan.”
Have you seen any mentions of Mitsubishi EV in print press ? Didnt think so. They are closer to production than Toyota or GM PHEVs, both by the timetables and progress shown to date.
T.J. People don’t like change all that much. Companies, governments and other organizations that aren’t actively pursuing and advocating a change will do everything they can to prevent any alteration of the status quo. Their level of entrenchment increases as profit and the length of the tradition involved increases. There may be a lot of people in the various car companies that can’t imagine their businesses running any other way than they do now. This means change often has to be very gradual.
Does this mean I am happy about this? Definitely not!! Too many people look to GDP and the next quarterly result. If you can’t see past the end of your nose you will run into a lot of walls. This myopic focus has created great short term prosperity, but it also causes many people to defend policies that are bad for society as a whole.
T.J., the government should, at most, offer ONLY incentives for consumers to purchase cleaner vehicles (PHEV, HEV, EV, fuel cell, etc.), then step back and let the market drive things. If, as you suggest, the government stepped in only a couple years ago when every liberal nutrooter was screaming for ethanol vehicles, then we would have suffered the same results as Mexico, whose population were no longer able to afford the corn for their daily meals (in the US, it would have meant higher corn, foods with corn based sweetener and meat prices).
It was always going to be the pressure of competition that would move the auto industry, NOT regulation, so Tesla, Fisker, ZAP and ZENN, supported by tech advances in batteries and fuel cells, are going to be the true beneficiaries of our free market system. Worldwide security / economic / environmental issues do motivate consumers to make better choices, but federal and state legislators, etc., will only get in the way, because they can’t possibly understand and keep pace with innovation that way free markets do.
Sadly, liberal nutrooters always have to have someone to demonize to push their agenda. It is never enough for them to succeed without causing someone else to fail. You would advance your agenda far more swiftly if you sought out win-win situations, instead of win-lose. It is better for you to cheer on GM’s (prodigal son’s) return, and Wal-Mart’s drives to sell energy efficient light bulbs, than to berate them. In the end, you look like the fool, not them, because they are doing the right things, albeit late.
I have followed this car from the beginning & have a blog that I always hype this car on. A real good question came up that I am not sure of & cannot find an answer to on the site. I know they had a video showing a Roadter sliding all over ice so I dont think there is a problem with the car running in a cold climate. The question was does the Tesla have a heater??????? lol. People tend to pick out the most minute things & then say see this car is worthless cause it does not have a heater lol So anyone??? Any idea??
THANX!
Well said Mr. Hendler.
“T.J., the government should, at most, offer ONLY incentives for consumers to purchase cleaner vehicles (PHEV, HEV, EV, fuel cell, etc.), then step back and let the market drive things.”
“Sadly, liberal nutrooters always have to have someone to demonize to push their agenda. It is never enough for them to succeed without causing someone else to fail.”
On some aspects, I agree on your sight of the facts, on others not. The main problem of the automotive industry is their close relationship one to another through the delivering industry. Another big problem of this highly traditional and profitable industry is the way their leaders (of GM, Ford and other leading car manufacturers in the world ) are thinking. They seem to be still completely convinced about their own decisions and ignore the needs of the changing world. They seem to be frightened by the competing green industry. Often there seem to be not only fear, but a visible paranoia which pulls them to take even illegal measures aimed directly against the green hype.
So I think, the government should offer support at different levels:
-Enterprises like tesla should always have an open ear for a present or future collaboration with the big players, without getting dependant, and without showing signs of weakness our woundability
-The government should support leading industries who could potentially change perceptions and pull an urging development
-Government is responsible for an active protection and pursuation against illegal actions between industries with special focus to the green industry
-as you propose, incentives for consumers would also be helpful
Conservatively there are over 300,000,000 million vehicles on the road in the world
There are (not quite yet)…………………….600 Tesla coupes on the road. I love it, look at all of the opportunity for market share for Tesla. The Wright brothers had trouble getting their little craft off of the ground, but once they did look what they started. This endeavor I believe, once it gets off of the ground will also lead to a major change in the way we get around. Anyone who has the foresight to invest in this venture I believe will be into Bill Gates kind of money in a few years.
Fshhead wrote on November 20th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
A real good question came up that I am not sure of & cannot find an answer to on the site. I know they had a video showing a Roadter sliding all over ice so I dont think there is a problem with the car running in a cold climate. The question was does the Tesla have a heater??????? lol.
=====
Check out www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=43
It talks about the heater.
The writing is on the wall guys. Get this car out ASAP because on the horizon MDI air compressor cars are coming out and will change the whole ball game. Granted it is an ugly looking car, but at $14,000 and is non-polluting, I am willing to withgo the aesthetics and glamour for now. I imagine a lot of folks might feel the same. You know I am rooting for you Tesla, but you’ve got to get the car into market or else you risk losing your market share. Get with the God(blank) program.
The handwriting is on the wall. 2008 will be a banner year for new travel technology. Oil prices will force general populations to respond to transportation costs. Time for Tesla to re-double it’s efforts. If the sedan is not on the road by end of 2009, I don’t see any market entry point.
Are you planting trees or growing wheat?
pxtol,
Great find on the MDI Air Car - what an excellent idea using a power source (compressed air) that is non-flammable, won’t electricute you and involves no toxic heavy metals or chemicals in fabrication or processing. 125 mile range, refills in 3 minutes at service station or 4 hours at home - this is also viable for the Chevy Volt or other hybrids that desire a method to extend range beyond what batteries can do, in place of an internal combustion engine or fuel cell. I love all the innovation that is happening right now - it’s exciting!
www.theaircar.com/
The “air car” is not quite as great as the proponents want to believe. To get a halfway reasonable range requires very high pressures, the proposed air car uses air compressed to about 300 bar (4,500 psi) stored in large carbon fiber tanks. The volumetric energy density is similar to lead acid batteries, though it does weigh less than lead acid batteries of similar energy storage capacity. This gives the air car a maximum range not much better than a lead acid battery electric.
Compressing air produces waste heat, at higher pressures more waste heat is generated, leading to high energy losses and low efficiency, much lower than batteries. Since the temperature drops considerably while the compressed air expands in the engine, it needs to gain heat from the environment to help boost efficiency. Because of this, the best performance is at very slow speeds, the maximum range is achieved at 18 mph. In cold weather, the efficiency and range drop considerably.
By adding a fuel burning capability similar to a standard internal combustion engine, the air car can get a range and performance similar to a conventional IC engine car, with a slight improvement in fuel milage due to the energy derived from the compressed air. However, a more conventional “plug-in” hybrid with batteries is more efficient and can achieve much better fuel savings than the “hybrid air/fuel” car can.
Of course, a battery electric car is far more efficient and much cleaner, and with advanced LiIon batteries has a much better range.
Pxtol:
I also agree that this MDI Air Car is technologically nice. But car itself is nearly as ugly as it can get. Why don’t they *try* to make it cool like Tesla Roadster.
But anyway, serial hybrid with compressed air in place of ESS and electric engine as main engine would be what I would do. That gives both EV:s nice torque curve with nearly lossless energy efficiency, and cheap energy storage which can be refilled fast without messing with deadly electrics. And it would be green.
Thing is that this has very real limits while battery tech is just getting better and better. So it would still be just transitional stage to real EV culture.
I just read about new high-temp superconductors that didn’t even need liquid nitrogen to cool it down to superconductive state, normal coolants were enough (reading about maglev-trains). That drops maintaining cost down a lot. If you can somehow get that used as a battery, it might be possible to get nearly infinite range with seconds of recharging time in a very small package. First generation of that would be way too expensive of course.
ICE is now definitely dying out. I give them 20 years max.
Here is an excellent article describing the recent evolution / innovation of batteries, battery requirements by industry (including environmental regs) and their deployment / uses in various industries:
www.edn.com/article/CA6501082.html
DDN, Thanx for the heater information!!!!
I knew they had to have it just never had thought of it or read about it!!!!!
Man this car really needs to hit the streets!!!!!!!!!!
I’ve been following Guy Negre’s “Air Car” for many years — since before the turn of the millennium. His engine is definitely interesting, but the car itself has always been “only a year or two from introduction” since day one, disappointing wave after wave of would-be enthusiasts as each new year starts with the Air Car still on the horizon. Early on, MDI made many ambitious claims concerning expected range and speed, and how even the funding/manufacturing/sales/service business model would revolutionize the automobile industry. When the prototype car was finally demonstrated, a few years ago, it turned out that it wouldn’t go as far or as fast as people had hoped, and that “real car” performance and range might only be possible by using a more conventional fuel. The Air Car thus seemed more like an ingenious toy or an experiment in thermodynamic management, and less like a practical vehicle for the people; as the Air Car wasn’t the automotive miracle that it might have seemed to some at first, interest in the business model seemed to wane as well. Perhaps one of these days, the Air Car really WILL be only a year or two away. But from the looks of their website, I’d bet that day isn’t today. I’d be very pleased to proven wrong, as I have always liked the idea.
Timo,
You’ve got it exactly right. I believe it is an excellent way to increase the range of EV’s without an ICE generator. Of course, given the tank size, it would only be feasible in larger vehicles like trucks and SUV’s. I would even be leary of Fuel Cell generators in extreme temp environments, whereas compressed air merely suffers less efficiency, but is a guarenteed start and run.
CM,
As stated by Timo and myself, compressed air wouldn’t be targeted as the main power to drive a vehicle, but a range extender / backup. As for temp problems, batteries and even alchols are far more susceptible to cold temp performance problems, which is why batteries are climate controlled and alcohols are mixed with gasoline to allow cold start. Compressed air is merely less efficient.
James,
I wish it wasn’t so typical of technology start ups to serially fail to bring products to market, but they so often do fail that failure is the rule, not the exception. As you notice with so many vehicle designs, the chassis / interior design doesn’t reflect what consumers want to buy, but is a statement of the technology providers that says: “Look how smart I am! If you hadn’t noticed the genius of my technology, then you shant miss it in the design of the chassis! Clearly the moonbuggy look is a reflection of the out-of-this world tech inside!” The genius behind the Tesla and Fisker designs are their European looks, which target the buyers with the big dollars, and not the Area 51 enthusiasts.
Would it be possible to replace the battery pack that comes standard with wiht the car, with batteries that could be changed out at fueling stations. Kind of like an exchange program. Exchange dead battery’s in a matter of minutes greatly extending the range of the car.
Thanks
Aaron
Re: Malibu Fires take their toll
I guess the only positive thing one can say about this is that at least Flea hadn’t got his Roadster just yet. Losing your home is bad enough but your brand new vehicle tat you’deaited so long fopr would be too much.
Hope you and your family are safe Flea and so sorry to hear about your loss.
www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-flea8,0,3728402.story?coll=la-home-center
Peter J Hedge
Victoria
BC
Hugly interested in the Tesla car after seeing it featured in Modern Marvels program. Looks great and the 16 moving parts 70 lb motor was impressive.
My question is conserning the Tesla power source [Lithyium Batteries] after seeing some alternatives and reading articles on line such as this one www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1201483 which discusses the Bone Battery Pac versus Energizer Lithuim AA batteries. As well as the use of perhaps an alternative power storage source such as the Ultra capacitor or a fuel cell / pulse capacitor or spring battery etc. etc.. And i’m sure there are more power alternatives being developed or have already been developed which surpass th lythium that i haven’t mentioned or am un-aware of at this time and being so
With high tech moving so fast and finally interest in alternative power sources being a growing national concern and gaining fast track interest once again. Is Tesla looiking to these newer or alternative rechargable power storage devices or even cells to replace the current lythium power supply / storage used in the Tesla currrently?
If so - i’d love to hear more on the subject of the rechargeable power source from theTesla creators / engineers and their thoughts on what alternates they are looking to - if they are that is - for future Tesla vehicles If you feels so inclined and would indulge me.
You gotta admit
100k versus 1 mill for the special edition Lambo while running neck in neck in the 0 to 60 specs for both Tesla and the Lambo well…, sure gets Tesla a lot of attention i’m sure - as well as electric cars in general.
Thanx for creating the Tesla
halibut - just read Flea’s Malibu house burned down. Real sorry to hear that. There’s not too much you can say … I hope he had time to retrieve his most important things. My ex-g/f’s parent’s house was next door to - just feet away - from the castle that burned down, but their house made it. I think god - if you believe in him - does throw dice.
# milos wrote on November 25th, 2007 at 10:21 am
## halibut - just read Flea’s Malibu house burned down.
If you read the LA times story Peter posted above you will see that it was likely not his “main” house in Malibu, but rather a secondary house (in the hills) that he had listed for sale.
Still a major bummer, but it might not have claimed much in the way of irreplaceable items if it was listed for sale at the time.
Given the success of RHCP, (and indicated by his $10million primary home), I bet he has “money to burn” (so to speak)
In this blog he wrote: “i was saving money for something…”
I was surprised by that thinking that someone with his level of success wouldn’t need to do much saving with royalties likely taking care of “little” things like a Tesla Roadster.
Well, I know nothing of his finances but being able to put down the 100% deposit on the Roadster shows some level of financial well-being!
My condolances to Flea, who lost one of his houses in the Malibu wildfires this morning. He’s probably luckier than most in that he has more than one house, but the pain and lost memories are still there. Good luck with the cleanup.
Flea:
Sorry to hear about your house. My son and I had just heard that the fires took the home of “a member of The Red Hot Chili Peppers”, and I told him I had a horrible feeling it was yours. Hope everyone is well.
Chase:
www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=39
Too bad about the Malibu experience. Reminds me of the the same thing in my life when I lost my cell phone.
shucks!! good thing I had insurance, everyone else could pay for it….
sour grapes, nah,,,, just being another entitiled US citizen……
Flea: Sorry about your home (even if secondary). This kind of accident is always irreversible if you did have even tiniest thing in it that had any value other than money.
Chase:
www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=24
There are other, better batteries, but they cost a lot more. I just calculated using one of those “better” battery types that ESS alone would cost 150k$ using it. And it wasn’t one of the expensive choices.Teslas choice of lithium ion really is ideal for now.
Two cases:
cheap batteries are too weak in energy density.
better energy density batteries are too expensive.
Other than batteries are also too weak or too exotic and costly to use.
Flea, I am a muzo as well. We met @ Studio 4 in Philly in the early 90s….. I was Steve Winwood’s saxophonist/keyboardist in 2005. I was involved in EVs seems like forever and hands-on at the APS Electric 500 where I worked on the Pit Crew for an electrified Porsche 914. I may go w/ the AC Propulsion option as my band[s] aren’t nearly as successful as yours. I’m honored that you have the integrity to go electric, just remember you can play your trumpet & your bass electric or acoustic.
Peace through voltage,
J
Awesome presentation! Recommending that a friend of mine contact you for purchase (getting on your waiting list!).
By-the-by… Torque is NOT expressed in ‘Ft - Lbs”, but rather in “Lbs - Ft”.
Kind regards,
Steve Lacki
Dennis, the 50% electric fleet in 1930 doesn’t sound right. In 1913, maybe. By the ’30s electrics were already seen as the province of octagenarians and crackpots and gasoline ICE motorcars had long since established dominance.
lbs-ft, not ft-lbs?
It is actually ft*lbf or ft*lb (note: pound force, not pound mass), and the order doesn’t matter.
Just like a Newton can be kg*m/s^2 or m*kg/s^2 or s^(-2)*m*kg.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-pound_force
About Air Car :
Air compressed to 300 bar would at best have ~1 kg weight per each liter of air. One liter of air would have adiabatic energy capacity ~25 Wh. So we would have energy density ~25 Wh / kg versus ~110 Wh / kg of Tesla Motors ESS. This is the only energy density available for high power density (fast acceleration). Because we are dealing with thermodynamics based engine with compressed air energy efficiensy would be significantly less than electric. I estimate it 60% at best in practical system. So compressed air approach for car with performance like Tesla roadster would manage ~30 miles total range between air recharges. This is hardly very practical range for any car.
It exist a possibility to use low power so that some heat is taken from surrounding air. This by design would be low power because of heat exchange rate limitations with environment. This will enforce punishment car style driving experience. With this approach energy density could grow ~2 times. With punishment car style driving say at ~30 mph with all efforts made to save energy air car range could be extended up to 100 - 150 miles but with extremely inconvenient driving with many compromises required from the customer.
Low range of Air car comes from low (room) temperature of the air making it store not much energy per unit of weight. So the concept could be improved by using some heat accumulation. If tank could be thermoinsulated and kept at say 900 C so that air is really hot energy density would be 4 times higher. It is theoretically possible to use carbon fiber inside graphite matrix materials to keep temperature even higher like 2700 C. If air expansion would also utilize heat exchange with solid graphite heated to say 3000 C or even slightly higher energy density could be managed up to ~500 Wh / kg. So it would be not so much compressed air energy source but more like heat capacity energy source with high pressure air as a simple efficient tool to extract heat capacity energy into mechanical work. Indicated energy density would allow no compromises car with range ~500 miles before recharging heated compressed air. Such a recharge could be managed faster than electric by pumping already heated and compressed air into the car tank.
So the key to Air Car success in my opinion would be usage of extremely heated and thermoinsulated air instead of room temperature air. But this requires hard to manage technology because efficient thermal insulation would be needed for high temperatures and high pressures both. Nobody done it in practical mass produced products so far. It is possible in the lab and I believe with proper effort and investment it could be done.
Main advantage of such system would be that rechargeable energy storage consist of bulk carbon materials and heated air - very ecological and low cost materials. Energy would be stored as heat capacity. Expansion of heated air from this system would manage order of magnitude more energy per weight compared to room temperature air. Recharge cycle count by the nature of such system would be very high (many thousands cycles before tank become unsafe). If this could be developed to a technology status from just a physics lab possibility it may outcompete EV by having much lower cost.
About Air Car:
I forget to mention that normal heated to 2700 C air would burn with carbon walls of a tank. So pure nitrogen component of the air without any oxygen should be used instead. It is cheap to extract nitrogen gas from air so been exausted back it would just come back to air. Nitrogen is very inert so it should avoid reacting with tank walls up to certain high temperature. Sure heated tank should be kept totally isolated from normal air so it would not contact oxygen at all. I am not sure that 2700 C would be possible without carbon and nitrogen reacting but certainly fairly high temperature should be possible.
Anatoly,
Very interesting write-up on how to improve the potential energy of a compressed gas. I believe your assessment of the performance of the compressed gas is correct, if you are using an Air Car engine to directly drive the wheels. I was thinking of using compressed air to steadily drive a turbine, which recharges the Tesla’s batteries, then the Tesla’s performance would stay the same, while its range is increased, while getting the most effiecient energy extraction from the compressed gas.
To Jason M. Hendler :
If you use compressed air as you describe you average lower energy density of compressed air with much higher energy density of ESS. Because compressed air energy density per unit of mass is lower than ESS you would in fact increase car complexity and loose energy capacity for the same car mass. So this makes loose-loose type of proposition.
Current ESS have 53 kWh with about 450 kg mass. Imagine we split 450 kg like 250 kg for ESS and 200 for compressed air. Assuming my energy density estimate for compressed air together with 60% energy efficiensy you would get 15 Wh electricity from each 1 kg of compressed air (including tank weight I assume). So 200 kg of compressed air system would have 3 kWh of energy and 250 kg remaining ESS would have just 30 kWh. So such a system would have total 33 kWh instead of 53 kWh. Basically you lost 20 kWh with such compressed air system addition for the same mass.
Basically if compressed air energy density is lower than what you have in batteries you do not win to have compressed air. But if by using high temperature heat capacity of solid tank with compressed air you manage proper energy density you do not need electricity. You could just let compressed air come to usual piston as in typical car through typical valves and you get your engine. It would be two stroke engine. At top piston position you let fraction of compressed air come in and close the valve before piston significantly moves. After that air push piston and in a process cool down to room temperature. This would convert all the heat energy of the air into mechanical movements much the same way as in regular ICE engine. At the bottom piston position exaust valve opens so piston push the air at low pressure out while piston come to the top. Such a system could have just two cylinders to manage same smoothness as 4 cylinder regular ICE engine. It could easily have single cylinder. Torque would be excellent because of really high pressure of the air. With two cyclinders or more you would have static torque much the same way as in electric motor because if you let compressed air into the cylinder, which is not completely at the bottom (always would exist such a cylinder) it will push the piston and make engine rotate. You could even get regenerative braking by inversing described cycles so that you let ambient air in at top piston position, close valve at bottom piston position, let air to be compressed by piston push and let it into the compressed air tank at top piston position. This would manage negative torque for deseleration and would convert mechanical energy of moving car back to compressed air.
In practice too high initial pressure (say 400 bars) would not let initial air pressure and temperature to drop to abbient pressure and temperature in a single expansion. So you will need intermediate buffer tank to capture exaust at say 20 bar and by playing with valves you may let air from the intermediate pressure tank to expand in the same cylinders to actual ambient pressure and temperature. So you would have about 20 cycles with intermediate pressure tank input per single high pressure tank input. By using computer controlled valves with electromagnets all this would be straigforward to manage.
Because of high pressure ratio energy efficiensy of such compressed air engine could be made at least twice higher than ICE engine and higher than best diesel engines. It would be surely lower than eMotor efficiensy but not by too much. I would estimate that about 30% of heat would come to mechanical energy with initial high pressure stroke and another 30% would come with extra 20 intermediate pressure strokes managing 60% total efficiensy. ICE has about 30%. Diesel engine has 40 - 50%. eMotor has 80 - 90%. Compressed air engine would be ecological and it would have cheap and high recharge cycle count energy storage. It would allow reasonable ability for fast recharging.
It exist a question of thermal insulation principle at high temperature. Thermal conductivity and convection heat transfer could be eliminated by making layer of vacuum inside tank walls like with liquid nitrogen tanks etc. So real problem would be to remove heat transfer by infrared radiation which would be really high for high temperatures. Here it exist a principle that if you put several thin metal foil layers with high reflectivity on each layer more than half of radiation would be returned back so after 10 - 20 layers overal radiation heat leakage could become negligible. Inner foils could be manufactured with W metal (same as bright light source in incandescent lamps). Outer foils could be made from aluminum. So proper heat insulation is manageable.
As you could see compressed air could allow much the same advantages as normal EV with extra advantages of fast recharge and cheaper energy storage system of a car. The critical issue is increasing by order of magnitude energy density per unit of mass or compressed air storage. As I indicated extremely heated storage with good thermoinsulation could manage it from pure physics point of view. Key barrier is developing practical technology from pure science. It is very expensive barrier so it is unlikely to be broken by any small business or personal initiative. BIg business would not care for long time so we will not see any success with such a concept unless real big transportation crisis happen.
I love the customer comments! It seems that Tesla’s performance claims get the consumer “WOW factor” seal of approval. Best of luck to all of you at Tesla Motors.
You guys have inspired me to study my my electrical engineering coursework extra hard. I have even begun converting my moped to an electric vehicle, and putting my design and EV research into a final master’s degree paper/presentation project. Sure, it won’t perform anywhere near the Roadster, in any category, but it will be a blast to build and test my design. When it is all done, it should be a fun way to get around until I can afford a Roadster.
Re. compressed air car- only thing I don’t like is having to buy your heated compressed air from someone-and what kind of energy would it take to superheat air for cars all day at the local mini-mart/gas station? Also, what size would the car storage tank have to be? What we really need is a very fast charging battery-and solar PV advances. Tesla says you can charge Roadster battery off of a solar panel 10′ square. Nanosolar is making its “powersheet” now, which is very thin-almost like car paint, perhaps? A car painted with PV paint would charge itself sitting in the sun at work all day-that would be the ultimate. If battery tech improved re. size, power & cost, you could have 2 separate Roadster-style packs (at total weight of current 1 pack) one powering the car, one in reserve. Maybe then you could have unlimited car range with solar paint on car recharging one pack as you drive or park, in time it takes to drain the pack driving the car. Of course the sun would have to be shining. Well, guess the ultimate would be a very light, powerful battery pack-suitable for snapping in at the local mini-mart, as yours is snapped out-combined with the solar paint. At least then you’d be able to drive the Tesla by far most of the time on sun power alone.Maybe small ICE engine backup “for cloudy days, etc.” would be the real backup solution. Nanosolar won Popular Science Magazine Innovation of the Year Award (on Popsci.com website)-article says most solar cells deliver power at $3 per watt, coal power is at $1 per watt, Nanosolar is at as little as 30 cents per watt- also says Nanosolar is as efficient as most silicon solar cells. This could change everything. Also on Popsci website is a “CVT” bike transmission developed by two guys named Ellsworth & Miller. The transmission doesn’t use gears but rather ” two discs and various rotating spheres” (?-I need a picture to understand that ). They quote a Ford transmission engineer as saying that the design could be used in cars- o.k. re. torque & whatever.
Looks like “Road and Track” and “Motor Trend” are going to test drive next week.
sanmateodailynews.com/article/2007-11-30-11-30-tesla
Anatoly,
You misunderstand my desire to add compressed air tech to a future Tesla vehicle. You are absolutely correct that adding a compressed air system to a Tesla vehicle adds complexity and less energy density to the vehicle than simply adding more batteries to increase range. What compressed air gives the vehicle is the ability to rapidly recharge when you don’t have 3-4 hours to wait for the wall socket to do its job. If it turns out that a new battery tech comes along that allows the Tesla to recharge its batteries to 80% capacity, or more, in 15 mins or less, than the need for a rapidly rechargeable “range extender” (ICE generator, fuel cell, compressed air) is completely unnecessary.
New blog needed
Brandon wrote on November 30th, 2007 at 10:57 am
Looks like “Road and Track” and “Motor Trend” are going to test drive next week.
sanmateodailynews.com/article/2007-11-30-11-30-tesla
If I could hazard a guess, this indicates that the first production cars are coming off the line. I don’t beleive they planned to allow the professional auto reviewers to do their formal evaluations on the prototypes.
Perhaps we haven’t seen a new article because they are waiting to announce this?
Perhaps I am dreaming?
wow, i just like to have one for my company car…
great, please go on. if you need a sales representativ for europa, i know a good company
So if Tesla is letting Road and Track test drive, then was there a final fix for the Transition issues?
Hi guys. This compressed air thing may indeed have its niche. Certainly not in the Roadster or any battery vehicle…but for small (particularly industrial) vehicles with a no-onsite-emissions requirement (say, inside a warehouse) they can be extremely inexpensive, and work well. You guys should check out the scuderi split-cycle for a pretty good hybrid gas/compressed-air engine. Has regenerative braking and can be run on air alone. Of course while they are cheap, they also aren’t anywhere near as good as battery vehicles from either an efficiency or performance standpoint. This is not likely to change.
Anyway, in the context of Tesla’s vehicles, these ideas to add an ICE or compressed air or whatnot are very wrongheaded. It’s an extreme performance vehicle, and there’s no way it would stay in this performance range lugging around all that extra baggage.
Oh, and TJ, continuously variable transmissions have been around for quite some time; there are some DaVinci drawings of one. Most of the major auto manufacturers have them available; I think the Ford 500 has the option. They are supposed to be really nice, increasing both efficiency and performance, although some complain that they are noisy…the transmission tends to rev the engine a lot more than a regular auto tranny would. Their drawbacks are relatively high weight and relatively low torque handling. It seems to me that these should be the perfect compliment for diesel engines (preferably running biodiesel) with their narrow but high power bands, but I haven’t seen that combination outside of farm equipment. They are of comparitively little value to vehicles with electric drivetrains because the motor typically has a very wide speed range. They are probably less efficient than something like the roadster’s transmission, and probably would weigh a lot more to handle the same torque.
RE: T.J.’s Quote
T.J. CTV transmitions have been used for like 40+ years or so. Check out the new Nissan Sentra and Altama. They all have CVT now.
To all the bloggers who made comments on Compressed Air Car:
I had no idea I was going to bring forth such intelligent and vibrant discussions on the topic. Glad I’m not the only one excited about this technology. I have certainly learned a lot from all your technical know how in your bloggs. And I agree with Tim, that the MDI car is the most ugly car I have ever seen in my life, second only to the Zap cars. And if I was made of money, I would go with the Tesla.
But Jason brings up a good point, why not keep the Electric engine of Tesla and use the Compressed air motor to recharge the batteries so you could simplify the design? In fact if you look at Youtube with Air Car, there is a clip from “beyond tommorow” that not only showcased the French MDI car but also showed this Australian engineer’s Air engine design that is far more powerful, compact and efficient than the MDI air engine. Wouldn’t it be possible for the folks at Tesla to contact this guy and work something out? I think he is looking for investors.
I sure hope the folks at Tesla are reading these blogs and not burying their head in the sand. Are you hearing me, Tesla? I want you to succeed!!!
—-
Editor’s Answer: The Editor reads everything, but does not always respond
Hunter,
If you read closely, I don’t expect a compressed-air, range-extending, rapid-refill solution for the Tesla Roadster, but perhaps for the Whitestar sedan that they are developing. You are correct that the Roadster is all performance / image, a true perception changing application that mainstreams alternative fuel vehicles. I was very happy to hear that they hired a CEO, who is himself a racecar driver, so that the focus is performance and styling first, tech second.
Again, if a new battery technology is found that allows >80% recharge in
Jason,
I did read closely, and I stand by my statement, which was not limited to the roadster. Compressed air hybridization is a silly idea for any battery electric vehicle. Batteries already provide a relatively low-density storage medium that gives zero emissions. Adding another even-lower-density storage does nothing meaningful for you. Range-intensive applications happen on open roads where localized emissions are not important. The idea that running on compressed air gives you fast-recharge is basically fictional; it’s theoretically possible, but in reality you are going to be limited by the speed of the compressor you hook up to (unless/until sci-fi compressor-stations materialize with outrageously huge air tanks) which had better be darn powerful if you are going to squeeze any worthwhile range out of a vehicle-sized tank. I tell you this; you sure as heck can’t find a compressor that can take 220v 70A single-phase power and store up 53kWhr in under 4 hours. Also, above you suggest that the compressed air subsystem would just charge the batteries, so “the performance would stay the same.” I assume this means you intend for your compressed air tank and generator to be weightless. In other words, I gave you too much credit before: your idea is terrible; please quit being so foolish.
The only excuse for a compressed-air car is wanting to build something with zero local emissions at a cost point below that allowed by batteries. Compressed air is an inferior, but much less up-front-expensive, storage medium for electrical energy. Other than its cost, it has no real available benefits compared to batteries. That is all.
All this talk about compressed air seems to completely forget the energy it took to get it to that condition. Like it was free to compress it.
Enough is enough …. you got a better idea, go start a company. This is an EV Blog.
A NEW BLOG IS NEEDED!! - (or at least a more stringent moderator)
We did not hear anything in this blog from Martin Eberhard for months. Basically except for couple posts not strictly related to technology we did not see his presence in the blog after he left CEO position. This hints that his position about EV at least from inside Tesla Motors is much more passive now than it was before. And because he is not CEO now he supposed to have more time available for technolofy discussions.
What is Martin Eberhard doing now if it is not top company secret ?
Is he still with Tesla Motors or he moved out ?
Does he still believe in his dream to mass market EV for ordinary people soon or he abandon this idea ?
I personally liked to read Martin’s views about car technologies. They were educational and inspiring. I think I am not alone with this preference.
Hunter,
LOL, at least you concede some of my points, that compressed air is cheaper upfront, and a simple tech anyone can set-up. If you go to a tire shop, they have large reservoirs of compressed air that quickly refill tires, they don’t turn on a compressor everytime they want to fill you up, because, as you stated, it would take longer, even for something as small as a tire.
The tall water towers that you see in your communities are a good example of how a compressed air filling station would work. Water towers are constantly supplied water by slow, efficient pumps, which build head (potential energy) to facilitate flow to the community without directly pumping water to every home. Similarly, a large reservoir of compressed air would be on hand at compressed air filling stations, which would quickly transfer the air to your individual tank, while being slowly, efficiently fed by compressors.
Air can be compressed by electric compressors from renewable sources. I am not saying this is more efficient / power dense than batteries, just a quick fill option that the current Tesla battery pack doesn’t provide. If / when a battery tech emerges that can refill >80% in
I saw the compressed air car on tv a while back, the thing that impressed me most was that it was noisy as heck, much like a deisel on a very bad day!
Jason,
You still aren’t getting the quick-fill problem. This isn’t like filling up tires off the canister of your shop compressor. How much air at what pressure do you think you’ll need for 50kWhrs of stored energy? That is not trivial just to have around. And when it’s not already pumped and available in a canister from some unknown entity, you have to use electricity to do it….which is going to take way longer than charging batteries.
Plain and simple, in terms of highway-traveling vehicles, compressed air does not give a real “fast-charging” benefit. In nearly all scenarios (not counting some new inefficient massive infrastructure sprouting overnight…get in line behind hydrogen) it will take longer to fill. And adding it as a hybrid drive to a battery electric vehicle when there are no air vendors is way, way out in left field.
You know, I suppose I’m wrong to say there aren’t any air vendors…I buy compressed CO2 and sometimes nitrogen from Praxair to pour draft beer. I wonder how far you could drive a car on the air contained in one of those 50lb cylinders. Costs me about $25 to exchange one…but my guess is that it wouldn’t drive me very far. Maybe I’m wrong, or maybe air (rather than CO2) would be cheaper. Still, something tells me it isn’t going to be economical to try to run “air-stations.”
Analtoloy- I agree, and the same for Elon Musk. John : the moderator is too stringent, actually. The Tesla press room says there is a new permanent CEO-from the car alarm business. The ultimate future Tesla Whitestar EV (with battery advances) would have a 500 mile range and come with an optional flex fuel generator, to charge car at night if you’re going on an extended multi-day trip, with no elect. outlets handy. This generator pack could be kept out of the car in your garage (to save weight ) and snapped into the car when going on a long trip. Also, this future Tesla would have solar PV paint, solar PV fabric (seats, interior side panels), a PV dash-and it would come with optional Tesla attire, by Pierre Cardin or Ralph Lauren- (or Ralph Malph-depending on your budget), featuring PV fabric (pants, shirt, jacket, cap & driving gloves). This attire would wirelessly tranfer its power to the car. Yes, I know what you’re saying, and I agree-it IS poifect !!
I just checked out Tesla Press Room again- Martin is now on the Tesla “advisory board”-he isn’t listed as team member or board member, and the “advisory board” isn’t listed either. In the new CEO ’s photo he looks rather like an extra from Star Trek, with attire somewhat to match. I want a blog post from Marc Tarpenning-never heard from him yet, also a post from Martin re. what’s up with his new quasi-status.
DGP,
Interestingly, the Air Car chose a piston engine, similar to the old steam locomotives, so yes, it would be noisy. I am recommending a turbine engine, which would have a sustained hiss, as opposed to a popping / chugging.
Hunter,
Let’s just agree to disagree. I can see a means to achieve it, even if you don’t. I really thought the water tower analogy would have cleared it up for you.
# T.J. wrote on December 1st, 2007 at 7:32 pm
## I just checked out Tesla Press Room again- Martin is now on the Tesla “advisory board”-he isn’t listed as team member or board member,
Yes, he apparently doesn’t work there anymore.
## In the new CEO ’s photo {Ze’ev} looks rather like an extra from Star Trek, with attire somewhat to match.
You aren’t the only one. But I do like Star Trek…
## a post from Martin re. what’s up with his new quasi-status.
www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php?p=4199#post4163
As I can see with all latest public information available Tesla Motors is completing the transformation from driven by vision small company into driven by money making agenda still small company. Press already referring to it as “…electric sports car…” company. So as it was expected by many experts Tesla Motors would evolve just into making high performance EV for rich people and forget about anybody who does not match guys like Elon Musk with wealth. I guess battery development progress end up much slower than dreamed by major Tesla Motors investors. Also Elon Musk with Spacex and Tesla Motors dynamics finally learned a lesson that normal industrial dynamics is much slower and much more capital intense than what was the case in silicon/software industries he originated from.
As a result we see natural under this case devaluation of ideas and vision and increase of value for closed from public big business practices. Indication of such a transition comes via removing Martin Eberhard from the company created by Martin’s vision and reducing talk to general public of ordinary people like most of the bloggers here. Looks like Elon Musk used Martin Eberhard and other EV visioners to enlarge his image with big political and business leaders. I would say SpaceX visioners of rocket flights and technologies experienced similar attitude change and were used up in a similar way.
So it looks like now Elon Musk is driving toward been a bigger politically boss than he was after PayPal deal with eBay. Tesla Motors is finally transforming into elitist car company. SpaceX recent dynamics make the same impression - more emphasis on dealing with big political force like NASA and less emphasis on technology. I guess it implicitly indicates that big dream of Elon Musk to become very influencial world leader very fast via SpaceX and Tesla Motors technology progress is failed against his expectations. Media coverage of Elon Musk related to SpaceX and Tesla Motors actually give a hint of such extremely ambitious big dream of him. Looks like reality finally catch up with the dream and corrected it hard.
Surely with such a very persistent soul as what we see in Elon Musk he would continue to push hard to become world changing leader but I guess development push from this leader for really new technologies is largely over. I guess Elon Musk would push to concentrate billions of dollars to big clamsy inefficient technologically but influencial politically projects he will try to sell to the world. In that sense his agenda would become more mainstream and similar to what big oil, Big Three in cars and other big businesses in the world are doing.
It was nice that really new technology step was completed inside Tesla Motors - high performance electric car was proven to be possible technologically. But it looks like that this is it in this company and from now on it would move as just any other business.
To T. J.:
Your posts maked the impression that you do not like big business in general and suspect them in all sorts of bad things. I noticed also that you are concerned about ecology, oil bad impact etc. I surely notice that my opinion about technology development means something to you personally. So here is a bit of my personal experience with real world technology development.
For about 30 years now all I am doing in my life is trying to develop original new technologies. About recent 10 of these years I am doing it from within different U.S. companies. I have worked in few big business companies and in few small start ups. I was defining system architecture and major technology aspects of several products in my life inside these companies.
What attracted me to the Tesla Motors site was a sense of familiar and pleasant to me fresh attitude about technology. But what was apparently sirprising to me personally was a sense that such a fresh technology is well supported inside the company by investors. My experience was always painful about dealing with influence of investment community which destroy technological beauty completely toward making a mess but managing some short term marketing and money making goals. So observing Tesla Motors progress from that aspect was very sirprising to me personally. Recent events inside Tesla Motors settle much closer to my typical experience. I personally had very similar ride with some investors community influence as Martin Eberhard did with Elon Musk and other Tesla Motors investors. Surely my experience was much lower scale and it was concerned with much less visible technology. But like Martin Eberhard I was fortunate enough to manage the first product with my original ideas and vision and later development was diverted and even destroyed in my case. My team was cut out from political and investment support few months before first product come to market but the product sirvived. So I think I understand inner feelings of Martin Eberhard to some extent. I also see very familar to me style of changes inside Tesla Motors. In my case what I did still sirvived as a product for several years already and is selling but the spirit of fresh ideas and development was gone years ago with cancellation of the team.
But more important thing which I learned was that technology development even if it is critically needed for society is never directly appreciated by anybody with resources (money, manufacturing capacity, political influence etc) regardless is it a big business or small invetment circle. Looking through your eyes to such a knowledge would be I guess totally pessimistic because you expect that particular people solve problems of this world through dedicated heroic actions.
From my experience I see it much more optimistically so i do not have feeling of “catastrophy” of any sort. I see that sometimes it is manageable to find a combination of selfish career making agenda of some management politicians inside a big business so that they invest a technology development. Sometimes small investors driven by total illusion have extremely overheated expectations so they invest in technology development. Either way is running on some big illusion of some sort and using inertia of expectations of some big personal reward. Such a reward never comes true because it is always way overheated. But for any dedicated, sharp, smart acting visioner it gives a chance to make a single comprehensive step toward fulfilling the vision before expectation mismatch kills the movement. The result of such a step never vanish and is never forgotten at least by U.S. society. So next step would come and the next and the next… This is how it gets done in real life that efficient powerful technologies come into our life and make it better. Regardless what would happen to Tesla Motors tomorrow they managed one step in this chain. The next step would come and the next so we will have a solution about all oil related problems of today developed world. It is just a matter that people like Martin Eberhard do not loose their vision and they would keep moving on supported sometimes and unsupported later and supported by business again. And such people always exist. If one such person get tired with that life and settle down to normal life another younger visioner come and the process goes on and on. So I do not share your concerned attitude. I believe in the power of personal vision and dedication to change the world. In my life I sirvived total collapse of Russian society in the beginning of 90s and I have seen what the power of personal vision and dedication could do.
From the recent changes in Tesla Motors I doubt that I would have much interest to appear in this blog - may be occasionally but more and more rare. I have seen you as a very concerned person and I put up this post just to make you more optimistic about all the social issues you see as big trouble of life.
Anatoly- I’m not against all big business- I like Branson and his businesses, for example, because he still controls the whole thing. Same went for the days of Henry Ford ,E.L. Cord and Mr. Honda- and Steven Jobs and Brin & Page now, in fact. Burt Rutan used to be like them, but sold out (for some reason) to Grumman-which is in turn owned by some bad Joes. I really object much more to “big banking interests”-and all that entails-which is plenty ( and then some-throughout history in fact)-but “don’t get me started”, I know too much. If everyone knew as much “then we’d see what would happen” in the world. If Martin was really forced out (and looks like it) , that’s the kind of move I’d never pull-the question is, why -and then why Martin and not a lot of the other guys as well- or some of them ?. Too bad Tesla couldn’t have gotten more big funding from the likes of Branson, or Paul Allen, Ted Turner- creative types, more from the Google guys too, I guess. Maybe Martin could get with Wright of Wrightspeed and the Cal Tech guy behind Ideaworks and the Aptera. If I had a few billion bucks to run a company, I’d carefully screen who I let in as investors “no weasels allowed, and no past links to weasels either : on the ‘it’s the principle of the thing’ concept”. But I’d be bucking huge banking interest forces -interests that like to gobble up and control, one way or another, some how or another and one day or another, most things really significiant. I’d hire guys like Martin & Anatoly and j stand back, step aside and get out of their way. I feel the same way about major songwriters. Friends of mine used to just like certain groups, and knock others , as in , for example “Led Zepplin is IT and everyone else is nothing” -and rock is it and the Bee Gees ain’t. Well I’m saying to myself “what’s with you guys !?”-I like it all, from Bruce to Strauss (especially Strauss Jr.). Musically I can’t write my way out of a wet paper bag but I’m amazed at people who can write good/great songs, and over and over as well- I dig them all, and I say “just stand back, step aside and get out of their way- ’cause this is all great “- the same for guys like Alan Cocconi, Martin, Rutan, the google guys, Gates, Frank Gehry, etc. : if there’s an envelope to push, let’s push it. So I’m actually really enthusiastic- I just wish there were more “pure, untainted , progressive & enthusiastic ” 1) sources of funding, 2) forces in govt. and 3) consumers in the world with more real cash to spend, or effectively so via major govt. incentives/rebates - so that the envelopes could really get pushed. For example, I’ve been toying with putting down a deposit on a hybrid Apetera, but it’s pretty expensive for a small car and I ain’t no Frank Gehry (cash-wise, that is). But if I had anywhere near his kind of scratch , I wouldn’t think twice . In the next week or two, after I trade my Mini-Cooper in on a new one and verify the trade-in value and after I verify X-mas expenses, I’m putting down the $500 on an Aptera order . So it’s not that I’m not optimistic, what it is is that I can see what could be done-and fast, with all the new green (and other) tech. now coming on line-and since “I know too much” I can see how the “social agenda” has been (is being) manipulated, etc. Since I care about this stuff, this leads to, shall we say, “disappointment with the pace of progress”. We could turn this country around on a dime if the weasels in D.C. would get with it (which, of course, is impossible). So instead of firing on 8 cylinders, we’re operating on the 4 being provided by progressive state govts.-like Calif. But with companies like Nanosolar, Tesla, Ideaworks we may be getting 5 cylinders despite and no thanks to “D.C. & Assoc.” Individuals doing things, like Martin starting Tesla via Cocconi & AC Propulsion, is where it’s at. Individuals doing things as part of associations, committees, councils, think tanks,etc. is not where it’s at- ’cause guess who really controls most of these “organizations”. This leads to “behind the scenes” deliberations , planning, manipulation: setting of the social agenda- for “their good” and “our own good”- wonderful, no !? (not !!)
Correction: the Aptera Car parent company is Idealab, not Ideaworks. Looks like an interesting company, they’ve got their paws into all sorts of things- the better for cash flow, perhaps? The founder, Bill Gross, is still around-by his photo he looks like a regular guy. If Martin is really out, this looks like his kind of company, perhaps? (maybe an Anatoly type company as well-looks like they’re open to any kind of idea, per their name). The Aptera is within my car price range. Of course for $26,000 to $29,000 there are a lot plusher rides out there, but it’s a “minimalist” design (with benefits) -and “that’s O.K. ” too. I wonder what would happen to the range if they made it four wheels-the back two having a narrower track- to appeal perhaps to more people ?
# T.J. wrote on December 2nd, 2007 at 11:03 pm
## The Aptera is within my car price range. Of course for $26,000 to $29,000 there
## are a lot plusher rides out there, but it’s a “minimalist” design (with benefits)
## -and “that’s O.K. ” too. I wonder what would happen to the range if they made
## it four wheels-the back two having a narrower track- to appeal perhaps to more people ?
Aptera is a very big car. It has extrenal dimensions of Hummer even that it is only two-seater. OTOH this version they now have looks much better than “proof of concept” version they had before (trunk is lower, width of the car has been reduced etc.). I guess it is because they hired some real car engineers to design it. IMO four wheel-version with lover ground-clearance and smaller width would be much better for me. Even if it means slightly lower performance. Modern cars look like they do for a reason.
I wonder, if Tesla gets QinetiQ batteries in Whitestar they would need less than one third of the batteries Roadster uses to get same range. Would that cost more or less than what they use now. I might contact them just out of curiosity. One third of Tesla batteries is about 2266 batteries. If Tesla ESS batteries costs about 20k$ those batteries can cost 8$ each and it would be same expence, but ESS size would be third of Roadster ESS. If they cost more, then question is “how much more?”. If less, then question is “can you mass-produce them?”.
Anatoly,
I can tell from the experiences that you’ve described that you truly have been through the “technology start-up wringer”, as I, and many others, have. I recently saw that my 7th (and final) patent has been approved, and understand its impact on its respective industry.
I don’t believe that Martin Eberhard has been pushed aside, thereby causing Tesla from losing its vision to provide high performance electric vehicles to the masses. The Whitestar vehicle is still in development, which promises an all-electric, high-performance, 4-door sedan for $60 - $70 grand. The vehicle after that will be cheaper still, so no need to lose hope.
As for tech purists who want capitalists to fund them, then shut up, just look at what Nanosolar accomplished - a less efficient solar panel that is so cheap to construct and install, that it ends up cheaper than producing electricity with more efficient coal. Google’s mantra of investing in renewable energy tech that is “cheaper than coal” is far from what tech purists want.
I was going to make two comments, but I see they’ve already been made. But still they’re relevant:
How about a general forum? This was supposed to be a blog on customer test drives, but long ago degenerated into a free for all for possibly two reasons, the lack of another blog for a while, and just people have questions etc. on general issues.
And as some others have said, as test drives are happening next week (or is it this?), I’m assuming the transmission issues must have been resolved. Time to get out that $5K!
Second milos’s suggestion of a general forum. To be more specific how about a new “News” blog that automagically posts the latest article from the “What’s New?” section so we’d get a chance to comment/rant/vent on whatevers come up as Tesla news instead of curremt practise of hijacking whichever is the most recent or high traffic of the current 4 blogs ?
Tesla has had a big focus on transparency but from an outsiders perspective they are not handling things well. Martin is out and no mention of it has been made. Here is the post from Martin on the teslamotorsclub site:
“A word from Martin
——————————————————————————–
Yes it is true - I am no longer with Tesla Motors - neither on its Board of Directors nor an employee of any sort. I have also signed a non-disparagement agreement with Tesla, so I must. by contract, be a bit careful about how I word things.
But I am also not going to lie about it. I am not at all happy with the way I was treated, and I do not think this was the very best way to handle a transition - not the best for Tesla Motors, not the best for Tesla’s customers (to whom I still feel a strong sense of responsibility), and not for Tesla’s investors.
Silicon Valley has given us many examples of fast-growing startup companies that managed to find a home for its founders even as new management teams were brought in to manage the continued growth of the companies. Larry and Sergey over at Google are prime examples: they still drive the vision and technology of the company, and still define the public image of Google. But management of Google is now in the hands of seasoned professionals who know how to run and grow the company far beyond Larry and Sergey could have.
But as Michael Marks likes to say, it is what it is. I am now part of Tesla’s rather informal Advisory Board, and make myself available to Ze’ev, should he wish to avail himself of my experience. We shall see.
Ze’ev is a bright and experienced guy. Unlike me, he’s made a zillion dollars from his past ventures (MMI & Clifford) - so he has taken this position not for money. He’s raced formula cars, and gets what a sports car should be. He seems to care a lot about global warming. As an Israeli, he is quite sensitive to the problem of oil dependency toward the Middle East. So I have reason to be hopeful, and I am motivated to see him succeed.
For my part, I am a free man. I will probably spend the next 6 months thinking about my next venture. I still care about the things that concerned me 5 years ago, so I will look for another opportunity to contribute to solving the dual problems of global warming and oil dependency.
Hopefully, I will begin posting my own blog at www.teslafounders.com. There’s nothing up at that address yet, by maybe by New Years.
Thanks for your support, Tesla fans.
Martin
__________________
Martin Eberhard
Tesla Motors Founder ”
—-
Editor’s Answer: Martin’s departure was announced via a PR statement that can be found here.
The “editor” is killing posts regarding openness and Martin being pushed out. Have you no shame?
—-
Editor’s Comment: I understand that emotions are running high, but please keep the posts coherent enough to get posted. I have to delete posts that break the posting guidelines. If you have a point to make, please make it without resorting to personal attacks and profanity. Oh, and try to stay on topic
The “word from Martin” seems a little hypocritical. If he was truly concerned about Tesla Motors, their customers and their investors, then he wouldn’t have made the above post, nor would he start another blog about Tesla Motors. Focus should be on the delivery of these first vehicles, and anything else just distracts / detracts from that goal, so I question Martin’s sincerity in / motive for his actions.
I don’t think Martin is a hypocrite, I think he is just upset. Wouldn’t you be if the company you founded and devoted 5 years of your life to kicked you out? I’m very interested in hearing the explanation. I’m sure many at Tesla are not happy about this, and I think I can say the same for many of us. Maybe Martin can now work on that American battery company idea of his. Back on topic, Flea you Rock!
Editor’s Comment: We have received various comments and questions, via the blog, regarding Martin’s departure as President of Technology, and joining the Tesla Board of Advisors. An announcement describing that transition is posted here. As a matter of principle and fairness, we cannot, should not and will not provide any additional comments about the details of the transition - or about any employment matter. This is entirely consistent with good HR practice - something that all good companies strive for. Please keep your posts on topic and let’s get back to Martin’s dream of delivering the Tesla Roadster.
my dad loves your car and he also loves your music. he would love it if the red hot chilli peppers took a tour in Vancouver and he would also like it if he could get i ride in your car!! ; )
i also play bass but i dont thik that i will ever be able to play any of your song so please make my dad happy and tour in Vancouver!!!!!
Wonder when Tesla will build a bigger/4 seat unit? Two years ago I drove a Lotus Elise… you have to be a Flea to fit in it or even to just climb in or out…jeez I’m only 167 pounds. This is basically an Elise with electric motor…please build something a bit larger!
I CAN’T READ YOUR PAGE! Someone should tell your webmaster that white on black is pretty well illegible to even reasonable eyes, let alone eyes that are past their best! PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, make it black on white. I can’t even read what I’ve written myself! And I really DO want an electric car.
don’t think Martin is a hypocrite, I think he is just upset. Wouldn’t you be if the company you founded and devoted 5 years of your life to kicked you out? I’m very interested in hearing the explanation. I’m sure many at Tesla are not happy about this, and I think I can say the same for many of us. Maybe Martin can now work on that American battery company idea of his. Back on topic, Flea you Rock!
Well done Tesla Motors. As is usual, it is from a quiet part of the globe where one may contemplate, that great ideas are spauned. I compliment you and wish you the best of luck, If only our Provincial and Federal Government could follow your example,with their imaginations. Of course you know that if they do get involved they will screw you up. They always do!! So my advice is get the kind of backing that you CAN TRUST. If only I could contribute, I would.
I would buy one rght now if I could afford it!
America needs to get off it’s oil addiction.
A utilização de carregamento através de energia eólica, poderia aumentar o tempo de abastecimento do veículo ?
##Tulio Cezar wrote on January 4th, 2008 at 7:35 am
##A utilização de carregamento através de energia eólica, poderia aumentar o tempo de abastecimento do veículo ?
Energia eolica poderia ser usado como qualquer fonte de energia para carregar o carro, mas se voce esta pensando em colocar uma ventoinha no carro isso nao funciona. Usaria mais energia do que geraria. Pensando bem, aumentar o tempo de abastecimento seria ruim, nao e? Melhorar o tempo seria desejavel, sim.
Gas Prices hit $100 dollars a barrel, better start driving less! Too bad there isn’t a test drivers for these cars in the Midwest. I would like to see how it would last against the cold weather? Probably not long.. :p
I would like to know, what is the cost for a new battery? I expect to average over 100,000 miles every 4-5 years.
# Philip Porcaro wrote on January 7th, 2008 at 2:19 am
## I would like to know, what is the cost for a new battery? I expect to average over 100,000 miles every 4-5 years.
I think this question can’t be answered because 4-5 years battery tech will advance quite a bit and you would end up different ESS you would have now. Which makes price question unknown for now. I think there will be several options by then to choose.
Hello,
My friends and I are all very excited about your car, especially the four door model. My boyfriend is a renewable energy equipment installer, and cannot stop talking to everybody about electric cars. He wants to know what the company thinks about using Bose Active Suspension und Tweels. These technologies combined with a solar charger would be equivalent to his dream transportation system.
Thanks for the cool technology!
Julie and Jason
Please forgive my indulgence into specualtive assumptions… The Tesla car looks to me like a General Motors marketing ploy.
the car is a welcome sight to the alternative choices. but you say how much it can help the environment and oil dependency . it dose not mean anything to the hard working middle class . WHEN YOU CAN’T AFFORD IT.
This or any electric car saves me ($50 a week gas guy) approx $15k in 5 yrs. CA also grants me 5k to buy this car. Considering the monster break on electic they are offering, this is getting closing to making sense. I consider this car, outside of the foreign oil, car pool, and gas savings) a $40k car comparatively. Back into the benefits, and we are talking $65-75k (depending on your use). I like the idea, just a little off on pricing. Perhaps the cost savings ideas mentioned prior will help get us there. Regardless, I am a buyer and I am listening.
I first discovered the Tesla on a seach for electric cars. WOW was I impressed. I want my next car to be totally electric and not a hybrid. May take me more than a few years to save up enough for the roadster but I love the design and feel it would be worth it. Keep up the good work guys. Really appreciate the efforts you are making to save the environment.
It’s me, the most recent addition to the fan base of obsessed Tesla supporters. It was great to hear Flea talk about his experience. Who knew he would have had such a love for Porsches AND Teslas (Two of my favorite cars evAr). I’m going to blog about Tesla very soon - keep any eye out: www.orange-element.com/blog.
Garret
TJ;
re gears: meshing and grabbing is not the problem. If done instantly, something will break, and you’ll get serious whiplash. If done slowly (see - clutch) heat is necessarily generated by friction, which itself is the necessary lead-up to “grab”. The advantage of ceramics etc. is resistance to heat and wear during the friction process.
Doug:
Prepare to have your energy source priorities massively revised: go to focusfusion.org. In your neighborhood by about 2015. Zero emissions, $2 / 1,000 kwh.
Oh, and Stanford and others have solved the anode side of LiIon storage: 10X the charge, with silicon nanowires (they don’t burst when expanding due to absorption of Lithium ions). The cathode side is close enough to solution that the batteries will be coming out in under 5 years. Charge about 60X as fast, given adequate amperage input. That would 2000 miles on $1 worth of fusion-generated electricity. That’s the equivalent of about $200 in gas usage in a very efficient ICE car.
I really like that pyrometallurical idea, but only until it has burned up all the stored rods. Then it will be too pricey. The capital costs of the Focus Fusion process will be about $10-50/kw. Fission plants are an order of magnitude higher, or more, and the construction lead times are huge. The 5-25MW Focus generators will weigh about 2 tons, and can be trucked from factories to their installation destinations. There is no future for coal, gas, oil, wind, solar, fission, wave, or any other capital intensive power plants.
About the miev, btw: 2009-10 IN JAPAN ONLY. NO plans at this time for NA sales.
Timo:
superconductivity is no key to free energy. There is no “infinite range” storage capacity. It takes energy to move anything , and charging depends on the source and connector capacity. Storing, say, 5000 kwh in 1 minute would require about a 1,000,000 amp source. Like maybe the lightning strikes in “Back To The Future”?? Lasting for one minute? Stand clear!
hi, hope someone reads this: i’d like to say that michaels car is a very pretty car, very good choice!
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhh my god!!
i dont know how speak in english im from argentina, but god !!
i love the red hot chili peppers and flea and john, tony, chad
im going to cry, they are all my life ooh
im so lucky
Very usefull post, i think i will use it.
Thanks.
Hi
As newly registered user i just want to say hi to everyone else who uses this forum