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What do you think about fast chargers?

Hey everyone! My name is Lianna and I love Tesla Model S! I am a researcher at UC Berkeley and I wanted to let you know that:

UC Berkeley is conducting a study to explore how current and potential electric vehicle drivers may benefit from the introduction of fast charging infrastructure.

To help UC Berkeley understand how fast chargers may be used, please take this survey and send the survey to friends!

You are eligible to complete this survey if you are over 21 years of age. Those who complete the survey will have a chance to receive an iPod Nano! This survey should take no longer than 8 minutes!

If you do not drive a plug in electric vehicle, take this survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NonEVDriver

If you drive a plug in electric vehicle, take this survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/EVDriver

Let's keep expanding the EV community! We really appreciate your help!

Lianna, while I appreciate your enthusiastic and friendly approach, I've seen many similar survey requests on hybrid/electric car forums, coming from a variety of organizations, some with strongly biased prejudices. By presenting your credentials, we can take your survey with confidence:

Is there a website that describes you, your research, your lab/departement, etc.?

Who is sponsoring the reasearch and which organization within UC Berkeley is conducting it?

What publications has this organization (lab, etc.) published in this field?

What is your relationship to UC Berkeley? "Researcher" could mean anything from undergrad writing a paper to a full professor.

Thanks in advance for your transparency.

Thank you for your concern AoneOne!

My name is Lianna Martin and I am an undergraduate researcher at UC Berkeley. I am completing my senior thesis. However, I am working alongside Tim Lipman, the Co-Director of UC Berkeley's TSRC (Transportation and Sustainability Center), to collect data on fast charger demand and implementation. Unfortunately, my name has not yet been added to the web site.

Does that help?

After taking the survey, I feel your definition of "fast charging" is geared too much towards Nissan Leafs.

Several questions in this survey refer to "fast chargers" that can charge an electric vehicle in 20-40 minutes. The majority of electric vehicle drivers use home chargers along with public and workspace chargers. These other slower chargers take much longer to fully charge depending on the type of charger and vehicle (i.e., 2-3 hours for a Plug-In Prius but 15 or more hours for a Tesla Model S with low power charging). The cost of charging is based on the cost of electricity, and is typically less expensive than current gas prices. Retail locations refer to areas in which customers can shop or eat.

If you also follow forum posts about Tesla Supercharger (which is a level of fast charging beyond your definition). A significant complaint revolves around congestion and a lack of respect / courtesy when drivers block chargers when not charging or after completing a charge.

Thanks for your concern ir. It would take more time to fully charge a Tesla because of the greater electric mileage.

As for the complaint--I hope that it was included in the comments section. Either way I've thought about that complaint myself. We will try to address charger crowding in our research.

Tesla has removed research inquiries that they later determined to be done by paid researchers.

That said, the charging a 300 mile battery in 20-40 minutes is very different from charging a <100 mile battery in 20-40 minutes.
Be certain that you are measuring what is really important or the data will be misused and misinterpreted.

Thank you Captain_Zap,

I altered the statement to read:

"Several questions in this survey refer to "fast chargers" that can charge an electric vehicle about 100 miles in 20-40 minutes."

I hope that is more clear and considering that the survey has not been up for long, I do not believe it will have a large effect on survey results.

The survey is incomplete because it is lacking Tesla Battery Swapping Business Model of getting another 300 ideal miles in less than 90 seconds for $80. And all these are done without the need of getting out of the car (Your credit car is already on file, and your battery has its own track able smart history.)

Thanks for the feedback Tam. Since the battery swap technologies do not apply to the majority of electric vehicles on the market and they are somewhat expensive I decided to leave them out. That being said, they are innovative and convenient. I was hoping that the the "other" options would allow participants to speak about other features like those you have noted. However, it is true that non-EV drivers are not being introduced to said technologies through this survey.

@Lianna - fast charging is here, no study needed. Tesla replaced talk with action... and just consider the enthusiastic acceptance in less the a year of fast charging in the US and even more in Europe. Sorry many years too late.

Amperage would be more relevant.

A gallon of gas can be put in a car at 1 gallon per minute or one gallon per hour. That gallon of gas could get your 10 miles or 50 miles.

Standard Maritime outlets go up to 100A service. Tesla Twin Chargers supposedly could handle 100A service but, I believe Tesla limits charging to 80A with the Twin Chargers. RV outlets are typically 30A to 50A but I think they might be capable of up to 100A.

Even with the 100A service, limited to 80A, supposedly one should get 58mph of charge based on 85kWh Model S's range .

Supercharging is a different animal and faster. Supercharging is DC charging.

What I mentioned above is AC charging and it runs the power through a single charger or twin chargers on board the Model S. You get to charge twice as fast with twin chargers.

The main issue with charging in general is, that there are too many different connectors. A standard connector is needed.

The entire emphasis of the survey on retail misses the point entirely. Retail is possibly even a problem, because it encourages ICE vehicles to park in charging spots. If fast chargers are in the middle of nowhere, there is no motivation to park there unless you want to charge.

The mall adjacent SCs are possibly only there because of existing good electrical infrastructure. Compared to the Gilroy outlet mall, the Tesla Superchargers do not add that much to the grid load. The story might be quite different in the middle of nowhere.

The only people who need to charge at retail locations are those with cars with small batteries. Teslas have sufficiently sized batteries, that there is no need for charging at retail locations/during the day in normal daily life. The fast charge need is only on long distance travels.

One thing I forgot to add is the legal aspect of making ICE parking in a EV spot a towable offense.

@inverts

True, but longer travelers would rather charge up at a destination with a restaurant, hotel, nice shopping area or park rather than a rest stop or big box store.
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When you pull a boat into a slip you check to see if they have 20A, 30A, 50A or 100A service. There are splitters and adapters. They are not cheap, but they are universal. (At least in North America) But with cars, it is as if they are trying to have multiple outlet designs to dump the expense into the charging station instead of the car. That makes for less flexibility.

@Kleist

I think that we need to educate our local communities that are trying to accommodate EVs.

I heard about a local town getting a grant or gift to help pay for a charging station and they ended up sinking money into a slower L2 commercial charging station that had a fee and underperformed because they didn't know any better. It was expensive and there was a fee for charging. They could have put in a less expensive outlet that provided more power for less investment.

There could have been greater bang for the buck on main street, but they just were not familiar enough with EV charging to make the best choice and they had to rely on sales people.

There are other communities that are going for charging stations with a different standard.

Tech is moving fast and communities are having a hard time catching up with their slow budget cycles.

It seem like there needs to be a summit to get all these cities, communities, agencies and more on the same page for outlets. Many areas want to see the traffic. Charging stations are cheap advertising for a brief captive audience.

@liannaalexandra

I agree with Kleist that your survey is misplaced, obsolete and is now irrelevant.

Your survey is being held up by the past, and it is unable to see that the future is already here.

It is currently very difficult to drive your car from LAX to JFK with Hydrogen, Propane, Natural Gas, and even well subsidized and abundant E85 Ethanol.

And if your survey deals with "majority of electric vehicles," then they are also having a hard time driving from coast-to-coast just like like saying good luck in finding a consistent source of E85 Ethanol only infrastructure.

As pointed out by @inverts, you should be worried that your "majority of electric vehicles" have a hard time in accepting a common "fast charge" standard.

For "fast charger" for your "majority of electric vehicles," Do you want the ugly one on the left or the yucky one on the right?

Good choice for CHAdeMO on the left because it's popular in the west coast as well as in Europe.

But did you know CHAdeMO is on death row in Europe? I don't blame them when they don't have pay anything (equipment, constructions, maintenance or even electricity... all paid by Tesla) for quicker Tesla Supercharger (135kW instead of antiquated industry standard of 50kW fast charge.)

Good choice for picking SAE Combo Coupler on the right because it's used by the US, except can you find it anywhere in the US?

Yep! Majority uses big ugly standard which is so subpar, so slow at 50kW.

This is what we minority use:

Nice, small, slick, and fast at 120kw in the US and 135kw in Europe!

Your survey is so behind as if they are investors who keep losing money in shorting Tesla stock and they keep surveying so hard and finally found vindication because Bank of America Merrill Lynch has confirmed their price target for Tesla stock as $39 first then currently up to $45.

Don't these investors realize that by clinging to their past and let the prices pass them by, first at $30, 50, 100, 150 and now over 190?

Look at how Dinosaur majority has got them into extinction!

Tesla owners are now a minority, but we've got vision:

A father and daughter team were the very first driving across the US with Supercharger system even before its builder Tesla could even make a dry run.

I think we all support you in your learning even though we may be critical of your survey.

Be real. Be practical. Be bold and break the mold of majority!

@Captain_Zap - exactly. Some time ago I read the UK spend some millions of dollars on charging stations and in a year no one ever used any of it... complet disconnect. Compare that with Oosterhout with just over a thousand cars but number 3 in the world of usage - acceptance par excellence.
@Tam - I would like to sometime a picture with all three plugs side by side. Tesla said a charge connector can't be bigger then a gas hose and they made it happen. The other plugs are just not suited for ladies hands ( sorry Zappy, but I suspect that was the intention - bad boys).
@Lianna - charging is secondary, first comes range. My commute is 5 miles RT, shopping is 12 miles RT, but a couple of times in a month I have to go to the airport with 120 miles RT and in-laws at 200 miles RT. None of these tasks I want to charge on the road - slow or fast.
There is an old study of the practical range market acceptance
100 miles range - 10%
150 miles range - 42%
200 miles range - 70%
300 miles range - 96%
So all current EVs except Tesla covers only 10% of the market, Tesla covers 70%, next will be 96% of the market. Fix the range first before studing fast charging.

Good grief! No, Tam, she should not include battery swapping, since it doesn't actually exist for anyone to use yet.

All, please take it easy. This is an undergraduate doing a survey for a paper. Respond or not but you don't need to trash her... Especially in light of her consistently polite responses.

Lianna,
You also missed a few things:

- reasons for EV - you missed national security, ie not dependent on foreign or finite oil

I'm afraid you've oversimplified a lot of issues in your quest for simple questions.

- My acceptance of pricing is a flexible issue. I'll use more expensive charges less often but I will pay more when I need to. The market needs to weigh high priced chargers that EV drivers avoid using with cheaper ones that get used a lot.
- Also, a detail with fast charging is that they charge faster for the first ~50% of charge and slower as the State of Charge approaches 100%. This means that faster travel means charging closer to empty and not filling all the way up, rather than trying to top off.
- The Nissan Leaf doesn't have battery cooling, therefore, fast charging hurts battery life. Well designed cars like Teslas have cooling to take care of the battery. Knowledge of this can affect ones' willingness to fast charge as often.

lianna, you are very lucky. You have received a super amount of great information in a very short amount of time. These Tesla enthusiasts are the best. Good luck with your research.

Tam;
Whose right? the viewer's? or the model's? They're opposite.

@Captain_Zap

I wonder if there is any kind of PR effort within the marketing structure of TM to have teams of presenters going out and educating municipalities of some of the options before they make any decisions?

It would be interesting to find out from Tesla if anything like that is in place.

I think it would be worth the effort, don't you?

Maybe a local Chamber effort.

@jack
There's a youtube video of Macedonia's special planning board meeting and Tesla had a rep there to answer questions. You could almost see the light bulb go on in the mayor's head when he realized the benefits a SC would provide for their exit.

We also met with an advance team from Tesla which is considering their next SC moves. They met with some local business folks and our Travel and Tourism office.

http://macedonia.oh.us/2013/11/08/macedonia-special-planning-committee-m...
(wasn't easy to find!)

Jeez guys, maybe some of you try decaf in the morning--take the survey or don't, but unless you have a tangible reason to doubt her credentials or motives, ease up--you are making us sound like a bunch of sanctimonious a-holes.

O

The survey works well enough to give venders an idea where 20kWh chargers are needed. For example they are perfect in tourist areas where vacationers need to charge.

I have found in my travels hotels and resorts have NO interest in installing charging because it's money out of their pocket and they have plenty of customers during tourist season. Besides a simple 14-50 is really all a hotel or resort needs not an expensive charger.

If 20kWh chargers where in shopping districts in tourist locations I could easily charge each day while my wife and I shop, eat, or walk the beach.

For the charging to get to the vacation destination will be Tesla Superchargers. No need for that kind of power at overnight spots or destinations... altho it sounds and looks like Tesla is going to fill all needs for high speed charging.

Anything under 20kWh is just a plain waste of a parking space. I already went that route on my last trip. 20 miles per hour charging just does not cut it at all. 30 is barely tolerable.

@ liannaalexandra,

Thank you so very much for taking the time to post your valuable survey to the Tesla Model S forum. I think any information we can provide to assist with the deployment of EV infrastructure would be useful. In fact, I recently filled out another EV questionnaire at the Arizona Tourism site. They are actually looking at boosting tourism to Arizona by installing EV charging infrastructure. Anyone who is interested in that one can find it here:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/ElectricVehicleVisitorGuide

I took your survey and thought the questions were excellent and on point. Please don't be discouraged by some of the negative responses here, and please don't let that color your perceptions about Tesla Model S owners.

@OmarSultan

I was just trying to give the individual a quick "heads up" just in case the survey link disappeared suddenly or if they got few responses. It is one of the very few times that I have ever seen Tesla show up in a forum and explain the deletion of a topic. Many forum members are aware of this and they may not respond for that reason.

The sampling/polling method appeared to be set up so that it would unintentionally skew data and impact response quality and validity. There is no way to validate responses and data in a public forum with a survey the way it was presented. Since this is an educational slant it seems that it should be pointed out.

The response to the poll request is a part of the education in itself. It did seem quite odd that a UC Berkley researcher didn't have the poll itself reviewed for the potential to generate useful, qualified, quality data by using representative valid sampling methods or information before it was published and requested responses. Different audiences have a different impression of what "fast charging" is.

Sometimes it is difficult to see just how far along a pollster is with regard to EVs and charging developments without an understanding of their credentials, knowledge, background and experience. No hurt intended.

Everyone, I am anti-government regulations; but, I would support an ISO standard or NIST standard for supercharging outlets/ports. That said, notice ALL ICE vehicles and notice ALL petroleum pumps. Virtually everyone one has a standard diameter.

Question. Would this not be a good thing?

I think the only conclusion to be drawn here is that Tesla owners are suspicious, hostile, and out of touch with the rest of the world.

All she wants to do is get some information about acceptance of charging stations in the community and is instead given the third degree about credentials, technical lectures, and the attitude that Tesla owners are already too advanced for this entry level stuff.

Embarrassing!

The only education is honest education. Embarrassing - not a chance.

@dramingly I think the only conclusion to be drawn here is that Tesla owners are suspicious, hostile, and out of touch with the rest of the world. Gee, Doc, couldn't you at least give a few of us a break and say "some", or even "a lot?"


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