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Panasonic 18650B has long been available

http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-cgi/jvcr13pz.cgi?E+BA+3+ACI4002+NCR-...

I believe Tesla uses 18650A which is about 10% less in capacity and has already known this "new" product.

Will Tesla beef up battery packs? Any insiders' news?


Tiebreaker | November 28, 2012 new
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Just that [XYZ]'s enthusiasm for technology is $$$$ driven. So is Tesla's.

As Elon has observed, as have many others, starting a new auto company is a really, really hard and low probability way to get rich. It is barely weeks past a near-death experience. It is prepared to license its tech and patents to anyone (non-exclusively), and wishes Toyota and MB would hurry up and replicate its approach.

In the big picture, I see nothing to substantiate your generalization.

Anyway, it irks me the insistence that TM is not using the battery just to sock us all, and not seeing any other reason.

I'm not sure what this says. Unintended double negative in there? Who is "not seeing"? The others? You?

As for Google, I avoid its services and trackers etc. as much as possible. That includes search engine, browser, and products, and I use Ghostery to block its trackers (like 'Google Analytics') wherever that doesn't disable a site I need/want to watch, etc. And NoScript similarly.

Question: Where can I find the exact verbiage for Tesla's battery warranty? In particular, I want to know up to how much battery degradation is covered? I have not seen any mention of that except 8 year/100K miles of normal use. I am also interested in the life expectancy of their battery pack past the 8 year warranty period.

@blackscraper, I think you are missing the point a bit.

Tesla whole product relies of it being the best into business, for that reason alone it would be stupid for them not to use advances into battery techs. They have to. They would die without that immediately after one of the big ones makes a serious effort in pure BEV section.

But they also have to offer their product to customers with cheap enough price tag, so as long as new battery costs them more to produce same quality product they will not use it. This is business, not charity, so making money is only way for it to work.

Well, everybody holds his/her own belief. While I won't call you naive, I will call myself pessimistic [...] (blackscraper)

Fair enough. I guess I only really take issue with the way you stated your opinion as if it were fact. Seems to be a pet peeve of mine...

What I am worrying is, Tesla is not even looking into replace 18650A with 18650B or other more advanced products. (blackscraper)

Where can I find the exact verbiage for Tesla's battery warranty? In particular, I want to know up to how much battery degradation is covered? I have not seen any mention of that except 8 year/100K miles of normal use. I am also interested in the life expectancy of their battery pack past the 8 year warranty period. (pvenkate)

That's in fact a very interesting question (that doesn't actually belong in this thread but warrants its own IMO). Up to now, Tesla has been careful not to offer any hard numbers. Their entire language in this regard is watteweich (what's that in English?), i.e., leaves a lot of room for interpretation. The intention is clear, but how a legitimate warranty issue is determined, is not (at least not to me).

There is this number of 70% nominal capacity that keeps popping up. Thus, if within 8 years your battery loses more than 30% of capacity, I'd expect that's definitely a warranty issue. It was also mentioned that in reality for an average battery pack, they expect twice the life time, i.e., no more than 30% capacity loss in 16 years. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

I think the word you want is "vague".

I also think that it's deliberate because there are a plethora of factors to consider in regards to battery degradation. I mean if you drive to empty and recharge every day your battery will degrade faster than some else's if they're just driving 50 miles a day and topping up at night. Too many variables and not enough history to go by yet IMHO.

Of course it's deliberately vague, and understandably so. At the same time I think it is similarly understandable that a "vague warranty" does little to appease the cautious customer.

"Fortune favors the bold"....... up until their battery dies :D

Some comments on this thread from and old lithium battery guy (and the holder Tesla reservation #3937). The Panasonic 18650b does not incorporate a lithium silicon electrode. It appears to be a better packaging job of the cells with perhaps some tweaks to the nickel based positive electrode. This cell has been under development for at least three years and presumably Panasonic and Tesla have been evaluating it. It sounds like an evolutionary rather than revolutionary product and Tesla could very likely implement it as part of a continuous product improvement program. By the way its specific energy is only 5% greater than the 3100 mAh so don’t expect a 750 km car.
Panasonic does have a 4000 mAh lithium silicon cell under development. This cell as announced in 2010 comes with a 3.4 vs. 3.6 average voltage and a 54g vs. 44g mass. The bottom line is that its energy density is 800 Wh/l vs. 620 Wh/l so use of this cell would potentially lead to a 110 kWh battery weighing 70 kg more.
While the potential for greater range is clearly tempting lithium silicon is not an evolutionary change. The life of the current Panasonic nickel based 18650 cell is almost certainly limited by the positive electrode. This may not be the case with lithium silicon. As a young man my first battery patent taught the first method for stabilizing the lithium silicon electrode. Much work has been carried out since but the status is very proprietary to the battery developers (Panasonic, Sony, etc) and OEM customers (Tesla).
Finally Panasonic isn’t the only game in town. Interested parties are directed to the Silicon Valley startup Evnia which has reported a 400 Wh/kg lithium ion cells with a 500 cycle life.
John

"wetteweich" would be soft, fuzzy. Less polite: squishy, or mushy.

BTW, the 8yr. battery life at 8% improvement per year would improve it by >90%. Whether that incorporates any of the laboratory "breakthrough" techs is the really interesting question.

8% per year for 8 years is 85% improvement (1.08 ^ 8 = 1.851) so for the same price an 85 kwh battery becomes 157 kwh, or an 85 kwh battery costs %54 of the current price.

And/or TM's margins go up. Cost ≠ Price

RDoc;
UR rite, of course. Roughly, it takes 9 yrs at 8% to double, by "the rule of 72"; rate x periods =~ 72 for 1 doubling. So 72/8 = 9. ;)

If the improvement rate improved to 12%, then it would only take 6 yrs: 72/12 = 6. And so on.


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