my 2¢ on creep, hillhold, and pressing both pedals

This is purely my opinion but here's the conclusion I've come to after reading posts on hill-hold, creep behavior, and the stories of problems with people pressing both pedals at the same time. Tesla should modify the existing behavior (I'm assuming this could all be done via software) so that:

1) Pressing brake disengages any accelerator input. You get the warning beep AND there is no forward propulsion even if you also press accelerator.
2) Hill-hold doesn't need to be a new feature - just modify Creep to include a hill-hold behavior. If you have Creep turned OFF then the car rolls backwards when no pedals are pressed. (My preferred daily mode of operation). If Creep is turned ON then not only does it slowly creep forward when no pedals are pressed, but it ALSO will not roll in a direction counter to what the 'transmission' (R or D) setting is.

If you're really in a situation where you're concerned about rolling in the wrong direction, turn on Creep and don't worry anymore because the car absolutely, positively won't move in a direction you don't want it to.

Note: When I use the term 'hill hold' I'm not really concerned about the actual technical implementation of how this is accomplished. It can be using brake, motor, or both. I just don't want it to roll in a direction I'm not telling it to move.

Having Creep implemented this way also removes any need that I can think of for why you'd want the accelerator and brake to be active at the same time.


Creep is inadequate for hills, even small ones.

On most hills I use the foot brake just as I would use a hand brake in a car that has a manual transmission.

Unless my S is not working correctly pushing both pedals does result in attempted acceleration. The acceleration is NOT disengaged

@captain_zap, @theresa - Sorry, re-reading my original post I realized that I hadn't been clear that I was describing what Tesla SHOULD do, not what the current behaviors are. Added another sentence to hopefully clarify.

So yes, I agree that Creep is currently inadequate for hills - that should be changed. And pressing both pedals doesn't disengage the accelerator. That should also be changed.

In my opinion :-)

What if you want hill hold but not creep?

@douglasr - keep your foot on the brake

I like the fact that the brake doesn't disengage the accelerator. I need that little bit of boost on steep Seattle hills.

Cars pull up way to close behind you on hills now that people have forgotten what it is like to drive a car with a clutch.

@rroonnbb - I could say something similar about creep: "use the accelerator if you want to move forward."

@Captain_Zap - one thing I love about the Model S is how precise and responsive the accelerator is. Even on steep Seattle hills, I rarely use the brake and accelerator together. If I move my foot quickly from one pedal to the other, the car never rolls back more than an inch or two.

@captainzap - and you absolutely wouldn't want creep on for daily driving? Or wouldn't be willing to activate a mode on those occasions where you don't want to roll backwards?

Personally I'd be okay with those limitations but I don't live in Seattle anymore so maybe it would be a different story if I was in your situation :-)

@douglasr - Well personally I agree with you - I never use creep in daily driving so it's sort of a useless feature.

But on those rare situations where I really really don't want to roll backwards, I wouldn't mind having a mode I could engage that would ensure that the car NEVER goes backwards unless I put it in reverse.

And admittedly having to go into a 'mode' for this isn't really want I want. Ideally I suppose I'm just missing my hand-brake. I'm pretty good with heel&toe but on an extreme hill it was nice to be able to just handbrake-hold the car as I modulated the gas.

Suppose I'm just thinking out loud on the best way to take advantage of the smarts that a car like the MS has... and it seems like there should be a software solution to some of these things.

@rroonnbb, I agree with your idea for how Creep could satisfy hill hold. On my driveway at home my ICE would have held the car in place, but the S does not. Your idea would seem to be a simple enhancement to Creep.

Two feet. Activate the lazy left for the brake pedal. Use right to press goose pedal till car pulls slightly against brake. Release brake.

I drive the car more like a sport car than a big luxury sedan so creep is set to off. If you are parallel parking on a hill in a tight space, learn not to shift the car and roll in the downhill direction by easing on the brakes. It becomes second nature once you have practiced it a bit and it adds to the enjoyment of driving.The brakes can hold the car under full acceleration so acceleration does not have to be terminated when the brakes are apply. both are necessary to move in hilly close quarters.A software setting to do this would be nice for when the SO drives the car.

Ideally not only if we are in Drive should it not go backwards, if we're in reverse, it shouldn't go forward!

Lexus has a great brake hold feature, where if you activate the feature (button on steering wheel) after you press the brake and come to a stop, it engages the parking brake. It auto-releases it when you press the accelerator.

It seems similar to the desired hill-hold feature, but I'm not sure it even needs a button (maybe a setting if someone doesn't like the feature). The MS would apply the parking break when stopped automatically and release it when the accelerator is pressed (and not in Park).

I may be missing something on how cleanly this works, but I really liked not having to hold the brake in stop & go traffic and it works great on hills too.

My experience on the hills of SF and Oakland, with creep turned on, if I disengaged the break quickly and then pressed the accelerator, the car roll backwards slightly. If on the other hand I disengage the break slowly, creep keeps the car from rolling backwards.

My Active E has hill assist and no creep and I love it. I'm waiting for my Model S currently, but on my one hour "two laps of Santa Monica" test drive, I didn't like Tesla's implementation of creep and the lack of hill assist really bugged me. But I've posted this before and saw that everyone has there own opinion on it and mine is no better than anyone else's.

It takes about 20 seconds to learn how to hold the car using no brakes and just the accelerator. Easier for those who drive stick - it's the same feeling as the friction point on the clutch, except much easier. Then again, in another thread I just saw the picture of a MS halfway through a wall, so I guess maybe I'm assuming too much...

In my opinion, accelerator input should only be cutoff if the computer detects that both pedals are pressed and that you are attempting a panic stop. Otherwise, I wouldn't change the behavior.

I like my Leaf hill hold. I can set the parking brake then just drive right through it. It releases automatically when I press the go pedal.

I drove stick for many years, and while it might be similar, it's not the same. Specifically, it's much more dangerous. If there's a car in front, and behind me, I'm not thrilled with trying to keep the car in place by using only the go pedal. With a stick, your only doing your footwork only when you want to go. With the MS, you have to do it the entire length of the light. With a stick shift, it the way you're suppose to drive. I bet TM does not recommend you "not use the brake" while on a hill, waiting for a light to change.

+1 hillhold, even if it's a manual trigger each time you want to use it.

trydesky, have you tried it?

trydesky, why would you do it the entire length of the light? Holding the accelerator to hold your place on a hill is a waste of energy.

In the half second it takes to move your foot from the brake to the accelerator, the car won't roll back more than six inches, no matter how steep the hill. The Model S response is practically instantaneous. Hill hold may give you some comfort, but it certainly isn't necessary.

olanmills, I don't. I was commenting on those saying you can get the car to stay still using the go-pedal alone. I have tried it, but I prefer not to do it.

Agreed, it's only 6 inches...I do it all the time. But personally, I don't like the feeling of quickly going from the brake to the go-pedal. It just doesn't feel "right" for a car like this. It's hurried, and the brake pedal pops up as you slide your foot off to the side. With a clutch, it's smooth, and in-sync with the accelerator.

I'm also not saying it's a deal breaker, or even anything close.

The question I'm asking is, it this the best it can be, right now?


I think your original idea, if it can be implemented, is best. The car responds to your obvious intentions. If you have it in drive, it always goes forward. If you have it in reverse, it always goes backward. If you press the brake, it stops. If you panic and accidentally press both pedals - it stops.

I understand people who enjoy having more control of the car in spite of the inconvenience and risk of making a mistake. That's why creep is optional (along with traction control).

@douglas, I disagree that creep is a useless feature. It allows you to modulate your speed at slow speeds using only the brake pedal, which is the safest. Do you really want to move into your cramped garage by alternately pressing the brake and accelerator?

I think of Model S as an antidote to my previous sports car, which was a pain to start and stop - lots of clutching and revving with very little torque at slow speeds (turbocharged). I spent most of my time in traffic starting and stopping and getting a clutch-leg work-out. Model S is just smooth, useful torque.

@EcLectric - I back my car into a very cramped garage every day using just the accelerator. I find the control to be extremely precise; I can move the car a half inch at a time. In heavy traffic, I still keep a healthy distance between me and the car ahead, so it is no problem using the brake if needed, which is rare. But I didn't say creep is useless for everybody. It's just not for me.

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