Foren

For how much? What's the catch?!

Bear in mind that neither you nor the subsequent buyer would be able to claim tax credits. But I guess some people would be willing to pay over the odds to jump the queue.

I am a current reservation holder.
email me. We can chat.

Mark
Bortolottom@hotmail.com

Before too many people get excited about chatting they may want to know what your reservation number is. They are not going to get too excited about your 6000 number if they have a 5000 number.

Res#
Is it ordered?
What you order?
Estimated delivery date?

I believe my reservation number is 2897. I'm interested in "selling" because I would need the largest battery pack (drive around 25,000 a year as a banker in San Diego area) and I just can't justify a $75,000 - $85,000 price. Still have 2 kids in college, a boat, etc. Probably going to go with a Lexus GS 350, ES 300 or 300h, or an Infiniti G37.

Yes, would expect to make a little money as well...

If you are interested in continuing discussions let me know via this forum and we can connect off-line.

Dave

Curious.. 25,000 miles driven / 260 work days per year = 96.1 miles ave. per day. If able to charge @ home daily or opportunity charge away from home at times, it seems even the 60kwh pack "could" work for you.

If you're driving that much, do you realize what you will pay for gasoline each year?

Let's see...Lexus GS350, incl. navigation, luxury package, premium sound: $58,000, real world mpg 20, fuel cost 25,000 / 20 * $4 average per gallon = $5,000 per year, over 5 years: $25,000. Total cost, incl. fuel, after 5 years: $83,000.

Now the Tesla Model S w/ 60kWh pack, incl. tech package, leather, sound studio, air suspension: $75,000, real world driving 3.5 miles per kWh, charging cost 25,000 / 3.5 * $0.13 = $930 per year, over 5 years: $4,650. Plus you get $7,500 Federal tax credit, $2,500 California credit. Total cost, incl. electricity, after 5 years: $69,650.

I understand you want to make money on the sale of your Model S, but why not keep it, save $13,350, and enjoy driving an incredible car? And there are so many other benefits to the Model S that I can think of that are even taken into the consideration with the above comparison...low maintenance, performance, handling, interior space, a frunk, quiteness, the environment, I could go on and on...

@Superliner, average doesn't tell the actual need. Lets say he does half of that amount of driving doing long distance once each week. 12500/52 = 240 miles average. Just once a week need requires 300 mile pack, and even that could not be enough, at least until we have good charger infrastructure in place.

If he was doing long distances (more than 240miles/day) and knew about this, why would he have ordered the S in the first place?

I spoke with Tesla today and found out that I can swap places with another reservation holder. This would be the best way to go...

Someone can move up to my reservation number, expected delivery 12/12 to 1/13, they order the car and get all of the tax credits, I make my money ($5,000 to $10,000, obo) and then I cancel and get my $5,000 deposit back. I discussed all of this with the Tesla representative today and it works.

If you are interested in moving up please email me at dstong@cox.net.

Thanks!

Dave

@RobInMtl, I think dstong answered your question below yours. He is not hoping to get a car, he is hoping to get some money from reservation spot. IMO that feels sleazy. A bit like black market football game ticket seller.

If you can't buy a car, just cancel your reservation and everyone behind moves one step closer to delivery.

It's not sleazy at all, IMO. It's how a market works. I can't see anything wrong with it, and it doesn't even matter if the reservation was originally made with "good intentions" or if making a profit from it was the original motivation to reserve. Why attach any moral pressure or obligation to it? Doesn't make any sense to me.

dstong, thank you for keeping us posted on how the process works. I'm not sure you can make the profit you hope for, but if you can, then two people are happier than before (you and the person you swapped spots with) and nobody else should complain because effectively for them nothing changed.

Thank you, Volker. Not that it matters, but originally thought for $55,000 it would be a cool car. At $75,000 to $85,000 it doesn't work for me, but still a very cool car. I spent a total of 5 minutes researching before making my deposit a few years ago...probably should have spent more time looking into it...

Bottom line I'd probably take $3,000 for my spot.

@Timo, sleazy or not, I agree with you here buddy.

If it were I who had to give up my reservation spot, I'd rather give up and let everyone get the benefit of it rather than letting people with money (once again) step ahead of the line.

It doesn't matter whether dstong's original intention was genuine or this is "how the market works". I disagree with this process. Then again, I am just another guy saying what I think is right. And it is up to the seller and the buyer figure out what to do.

I will get in touch with Tesla about what's going on here. From what I remember all along, transferring a reservation spot was not possible till I read this quote from dstong. This is news to me. And if you disagree that you are being pushed aside, you too can ask Tesla about it. Of course, with no expectations.

~ Prash.

Prash, the part I don't understand is: Why would you argue at all? If you were either the person with a reservation spot to offer, or the person with a thick wallet to buy your way to the front of the queue, you'd be happy. If you are neither, you're not affected at all. So what's your point?

And please don't start with, like, it's unfair that the folks with the thick wallets get what they want. That's how it works, society has agreed on it. Signature series anyone? Or why should you be entitled to a Model S at all while the majority of Americans certainly cannot afford it? Arguing along those lines is utterly pointless unless you want to change society in a big way.

BTW, the discussion is repetitive. We had it here and here and here:
http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/signature-model-s-sale-reservati...
http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/tesla-model-s-reservation-resale
http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/anybody-interested-purchasing-my...

Ah, and the Model S starts appearing on ebay! ;-)
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/Cars-Trucks-/6001/i.html?Make=Tesla

VB, I can certainly say that it's unfair. I have a right to my opinion and, thankfully, the right to express it. You don't have to agree to it. Heck, no one has to agree to it but I can say what I think is unfair. At one point of time, slavery was ok and so was child employment. What's fair for one may not be for others.

I am entitled to a Model S as I stood in line for it. I was given the set of conditions when I signed up, I followed the rules given to me at that time, and did everything that is needed. Hence, I feel I deserve my spot.

The special consideration given to signature series was a big slap on the face. I was mad at initially. Then decided to give Tesla some consideration; I can certainly see that the firm needed the money to move forward. They had to do that (at least that is what I think) in order to raise more capital early so that they can go on with as few as obstacles as possible. Though the rules of the game were changed later on, I could bring myself to see a genuine reason for the change.

This, however, is not the same as it gives the opportunity to outsiders to take advantage of the situation. There are those of us, you included, who really want the firm to succeed, for whatever reason. And for that, we are willing to take some pain here and there. But, if there are outside dealers who come in for purely monetary reasons, that I can't stand.

If this guy can't afford, then sorry dude. But, if someone can jump ahead of the line just because they have money, I can't take it. Of course, you can quote my "sorry dude" back to me and I will understand that. That doesn't necessarily mean I will have to forget about it and do nothing. As I said, I will get in touch with Tesla and see whether this is true.

When I signed up and all along the way, the reservations were not transferable. Changing the rules now is not something I like.

~ Prash.

I think TSLA should not transfer reservation slots but should support transfer of ownership, even if it is right off the delivery truck. Hence all these sales will be for “used cars” even if only for a few minutes! I starteed a poll o TMC on how much it would take to sell your Sig and the top price was 100K over cost. If I could make that kind of money I would sell and get back in line too!

Prash,

"I can certainly say that it's unfair. I have a right to my opinion and, thankfully, the right to express it. You don't have to agree to it."

Agreed. :-) As someone who obviously takes the right to express his opinion whenever I see fit, I cannot possibly contradict.

"I feel I deserve my spot."

Noone wants to take your spot away from you! You have your place in line and it's not disputed. That's why I am having difficulty understanding your being upset.

"The special consideration given to signature series was a big slap on the face. I was mad at initially. Then decided to give Tesla some consideration; I can certainly see that the firm needed the money to move forward. They had to do that (at least that is what I think) in order to raise more capital early so that they can go on with as few as obstacles as possible."

Now let me tell you why they did it in *my* opinion: The Model S is a scarce resource, and early deliveries are particularly scarce. Demand vs. supply commands the price. In a free world, this situation is bound to result in some people reserving spots and selling them at a premium later. It's a necessity, it was going to happen whether you like it, whether Tesla likes it, or not. Actually, when I found out about the Model S in March 2009, my first thought was: Wow, I should reserve one. And the immediate second thought was: Wow, I should reserve two, because demand will far outstrip supply and some rich guys are bound to find out that they want a Model S way late. Or maybe they know about it early on but do not trust Tesla enough to make the down payment. In any case it would help paying for my own Model S.

Depending on your opinion, you can call that "reservation squatting" or "investment". Don't forget that at the time there was considerable risk that Tesla would fold before they would even have a production line. Despite the "100% refundable" clause (which in the beginning was only "90% refundable") the investment, if you want, was 100% at risk. I was willing to take the risk because I believed in Tesla and Elon Musk and thus the upside potential (possible profit) far outweighed the risk for me.

Then I found out about Tesla "Signature" offering, and I thought, dang, they attended econ 101! ;-) Tesla had made the very same considerations as I had, and since there was nothing that would stop early reservations from being sold at a premium, Tesla figured that they could just as well make the profit themselves. Which was how in my opinion the Signature series came to be. As a consequence I only reserved a single spot for my own use.

"When I signed up and all along the way, the reservations were not transferable."

One way or the other people would always find ways to sell their early (scarce, valuable) spots at a profit. It's not Tesla's fault. It's a law of nature. No use fighting it.

Once, a research team conducted an experiment. The team signed up a group of people and divided them into pairs.

One person of the pair was given $10 and was asked to share part of it to the other person.

The other person had the opportunity to accept the offer, in which case both of them get to keep their respective shares of the $10. Or reject, in which case, neither will get any.

Essentially, the first one gets to decide how much to share and the second decides whether this is "fair" or not.

What do you think happened?

If everything is rational and business-like, the first one keeps $9 and gives the second one $1. In this case, both of them are maximizing their outcomes. The first gets to keep as much as possible and the second gets to keep something.

Do you think this is how people behave? What would you do if you were the second person? Would you think, "Hey, this is better than nothing" and keep the $1? Or think, "There is no way I am settling for something that I think is unfair"?

In the actual research, in almost all cases, the $10 was split evenly or the two went home empty-handed. There is such a thing as "fair" and is completely opposite of what supply-and-demand dictates.

In this case of reservation for sale, I think it should first-come-first-serve, especially because this is how it was when I signed up. As joefiorelli put it, if someone wants to get the car ahead of time, buy the car off-the-truck and the not reservation spot. Had reservation squatting (or investment) been permissible all along, then I agree with you. But, changing things midway, with especially those who believed and put faith in the company, is just plain "unfair".

By the way, even if you think there is no use fighting it, I will certainly bring it up and express my opinion to Tesla. And Tesla does what it has to.

~ Prash.

What each person does is their business and what is fair isn't always so easily defined. It's all perspective, but if in the scenario above I know I would be the one to reject the $1 and even reject $4 as I believe in fairness and principal over anything. If it was me, I would split the $10 down the middle. $5 each.

Now, that being said, if the initial number was much greater, say I was given $10,000 instead of $10. Then I would most likely give up $2,500 and take $7,500 as I know the other person will not say no to $2,500. I wouldn't in that case... Perspective Gentlemen! :D

@BYT - let's play this prisoner's dilemma a little further.

I'll be the "other person." You want to split the pot and take $7500 and leave me $2500. But, let's say that before you formalize the split,I tell you that if you don't split the pot evenly, we both walk away empty handed? What if I say you need to make the split $7500 for me and $2500 for you, or we both walk away empty handed? Are you willing to take the $2500, even when you get to choose?

Ooh... fun business school games!

BYT, If principle is the thing I wonder what you would do had the person given you $9 and kept $1 for themselves? I think your principles would fall apart quickly. Everyone is human and wants to get the most for themselves.

Dang Took too long to type and Bryan beat me to the punch!

Right, that was my point in regards to perspective and fairness. With a larger amount in play BryanW then yes, I can use $2,500 and can overlook the issue of principal in this case because now there is more for me to loose then just the $1 in the earlier example.

Everyone is human Theresa, but I completely disagree that EVERYONE is selfish and want's everything for themselves. I am not perfect and would never claim to be, but I would like to think that I would stand up for what's right and assuming that nobody get's hurt in the above scenarios, would also lookout for me a little bit. It may not sit very well that it wasn't fair and knowing the parameters of the give, but I will have $2,500 to help me get over it... :D

Have a look at this:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/04/amazing_round_o.html

Peashooter
This happens with other exclusive car makers as well.
Get over it and a life.

I meant Prash
(stupid spellcheck)

Apologies

@prash - thanks for sharing that experiment. I think it does demonstrate elements of our varying human nature, especially as the value of the rewards change (as BYT noted). The experiment really seems to get at our inner sense of 'fair' and our drive to be 'practical.' As BYT points out, which wins may very well depend on the value of the reward involved.

I think there is a natural sense of fairness that we as a collective group of humans / society feel, and I can see how the idea of selling a spot (or trading up a spot for a price) can feel unfair. Particularly if it goes against what one's understanding of the 'rules' has been.

Having said that, if Tesla allows reservation holders to swap places, even for a monetary gain, I don't have a problem with that. I agree with Volker's "That's how the market works" perspective. With Tesla's blessing, it would be according to the 'rules' and there isn't much to complain about, even if it doesn't feel completely 'fair.'