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DC Fast Charge

I’m a posting fiend today... must be the countdown to delivery, it's like I’m 10 years old sitting in the classroom waiting for the snow to start so they will end school early!!!

OK to the point of my post. When making my final option decisions I did as much research as I could on charging stations... I know about chargepoint, some Google maps, DOE charging map, etc. but the conclusion I came to is that there are very few DC Fast Charge stations (esp. on the East Coast). What is the barrier to entry preventing the development of DC Fast Charge stations? I would think that every RV park in America could easily install a DC Fast Charge station (electrical infrastructure already exists) and I know that I for one would pay a hefty price if they could recharge my battery in 30-60 min.

There are a number of products out there... Eaton makes one with a credit card reader and Wi-Fi, it's also integrates with Chargpoint (whatever value that provides)... http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Electrical/ProductsandServic...

So, my question to those with more knowledge of the EV market, why aren't these popping up all over the place?

The only DC fast charge stations that currently work with the Model S are the superchargers. The units you are looking as are CHAdeMO, which is not compatible with the Model S.

" CHAdeMO, which is not compatible with the Model S."
Not yet at least.

However, the RV Parks could easily install a 100 amp outdoor charger that would double the current charge rate and give at least 50 miles per hour of charge. See link to Clipper Creek charger below that would be compatible with the Model S.

http://stores.intuitwebsites.com/ClipperCreekInc/-strse-9/Charging-Stati...

In fact, I stop at an RV park in Auburn, Alabama that is friendly to EVs on my frequent trips between Atlanta and the panhandle of Florida I have been talking to the owner about having him install the Clipper Creek charger above and even told him that I would help fund. I told them there were probably other Tesla owners that travel I-85 south that might also pitch in to help fund a faster charger if there was only some way to identify (seems like a business opportunity).

He is seriously considering as on PlugShare.com there are zero chargers above 50 amps in the entire state of Alabama but I bet there are quite a few Model S owners in the southeast that vacation in the panhandle of Florida. I think a lot of Model S owners twould be happy to pay a premium to use a 100 amp charger and/or help fund start-up. I am sure there a lot of similar opportunities for RV parks across the country to fill the void of faster chargers.

OK, sorry if I'm late to the game on this one, but if I wanted to start a business and install DC fast charge stations for all EV owners, who could provide that station, what technology would I want to use in the US? And if I installed a network of these stations, would Tesla owners not be able to use them b/c of TM's proprietary charging?

Not just RV parks, but any place where you would want to encourage tourism and economic development. For example, take a look at the North Central Washington High Amperage L2 Charging Project described in this post:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/17063-North-Central-Washin...

I believe it is a model that would apply in many parts of the country, and would help open areas to EV travel that are not likely to be served by superchargers any time soon.

But L2 charging (even at 100 amps) would only benefit those with "twin chargers" correct?

100 amp:
Single Charger = ~25 mi/hr
Twin Charger = ~50 mi/hr

I don't know the number but isn't DC Fast Charge significantly faster? And you don't need a Twin Charger?

For someone like me, who will very rarely go on a road trip that requires a charge, getting Twin Charger for $1,500 didn't seem like a good option. I would, however, happily pay $50 when I do need one, but it would have to be a very rapid charge (e.g. >50 miles per hour, or in my case >25 mi/hr).

I like this thread...

@cory

As to DC fast chargers, there are two types operational at present: CHAdeMO, used by Nissan, Mitsubishi, and Toyota, and Tesla Superchargers, used only by the Model S. A third type, sponsored by SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers), which maintains the J1772 standard, is in development but not yet available. It's a little like the old VHS Betamax competition: it is not yet clear which standard will prevail.

TM has stated that the Model S will be compatible with CHAdeMO in Japan, and that an adapter will likely be available for cars operating in Europe. TM has made no commitment with respect to the U.S. So there is currently no DC fast charger that will work for all EVs in the U.S.

On the other hand, a business installing high amperage level 2 (hal2) stations, which all use the J1772 standard, would be able to service all EVs.

@cory,
There are probably 4 currently viable options for public charging:

- Install a Tesla Supercharger - only Tesla Model S can use, however, Tesla Model S accounts for probably 99% of the EVs that drive long distances and use public charging along the highways today.
- Install a CHAdeMO or SAE DC Fast charger - The Nissan Leaf, Mitsubishi "I" can use CHAdeMO today and there are rumors that Tesla may eventually make an adapter to support it. Someone may eventually make cars that can use the SAE DC Fast charger but I'm not holding my breath. Tesla may make an SAE adapter too but it is way too early to worry about the SAE alleged standard.
- Install a high-current (~100 amp) J-1772 that all modern EVs can use. Teslas with dual chargers can charge at about 90 amps, Teslas with single chargers can charge at about 40 amps, Other EVS (Volt, Leaf, etc) can charge at whatever slow rate they can handle, generally 15 to 30 amps.
- Install a low-current (~30 amp) J-1772 that all modern EVs can use. The most any can charge at is 30 amps but that's enough to get about 24 miles of charge in an hour. This is fine for any destination location where people will come from long distances and stay for a few hours.

The charger

http://stores.intuitwebsites.com/ClipperCreekInc/-strse-9/Charging-Stati...

Is not a DC Fast charger and won't charge a Tesla in a half hour.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that there is a market and a need for high amp L2 charging. At $2,200 (add in a credit card swipe and/or whatever is needed to meter and charge for usage), I think someone could make a pretty good business case... I think the challenge to the business case would be this.

I have a 400 mile trip. In my ICE I can average 60 MPH and will need to stop to stop, once to grab a bite to eat and relive myself of the super big gulp I picked up before I left home.

ICE Trip:
200 miles @ 60 mph = 3 hr 22.5 min
Grab a bit to eat = 30 min
200 miles @ 60 mph = 3 hr 22.5 min
Arrive at beach house = total time 7 hr 15 min; total 400 miles; Avg Speed = 55 mph

Now Same Trip in EV with L2 (recharge at 50 mi/hr)
200 miles @ 60 mph = 3 hr 22.5 min
Grab a bit to eat and recharge = 4 hr
200 miles @ 60 mph = 3 hr 22.5 min
Arrive at beach house = total time 10 hr 45 min; total 400 miles; Avg Speed = 37 mph

With DC Fast charge (recharge would take 40 min), so:
Arrive at beach house = total time 7 hr 25 min; total 400 miles; Avg Speed = 54 mph

net/net: DC Fast Charge results in an EV being very close to the same experience as an ICE... To be honest, I would pay $100 to get a DC Fast Charge of 60 to 85 kW, in the few situations I would need it, and if there were consumers who knew they would use more consistently they could "bulk purchase" (something like pay $12.50 per month and for 300 kW per year, everything above that is at $1.00 per kW; if they find they need more than they could re-up their contract, pay $20/mo and get 600 kW per year, everything above that is $1.00) I guess that's kind of like a cell phone plan.

Anyway, I'm way out there now, that's my $0.02

@cory -

High amperage level 2 stations (J1772) can be used for all EVs, but you are correct, only cars with twin chargers will see the faster charging rates. TM Supercharging would work with all Model S cars, provided it is enabled ($2,000 for the 60 kWh cars). However, only TM is installing these superchargers at present. They are not available for purchase, and they would be quite expensive to install, requiring 400-500 volt connections (I believe). Even if you could get a supercharger, the cost would be maybe 100 times the cost of installing a high amperage level 2 station.

For this reason, I think the best strategy is to let TM build out its supercharger network, which will eventually cover travel between all major population centers. The real need is for public charging stations serving destinations and routes that are not likely to be served by superchargers. Private businesses, hotels, and particularly organizations devoted to tourism and economic development are the likely sponsors of these facilities.

Interesting thread. Once I get the wife thinking about a Tesla (two "extra" car purchases have muddied the waters somewhat), I have a thought. I would want to install an outside charge port for visiting EV owners, not just Tesla owners. What would be the most compatible plug to use? The J1772?

@hamer -- I agree it is not a DC fast charger but it is twice as fast as what is typically currently available for a Model S in most parts of the United States. My post correctly states it would provide at least 50 miles per hour of charge and does not say it is a DC fast charger.

@corey -- I agree that a 400 mile trip would be a challenge in most parts of the country until Supercharger infrastructure becomes more readily available. However, in my case and for many in Atlanta, it is approximately 310 miles from Atlanta to the Florida beaches. Using your format, a 310 mile trip would be as follows:

ICE Trip:
200 miles @ 60 mph = 3 hr 20 min
Grab a bit to eat = 30 min
110 miles @ 60 mph = 1 hr 50 min
Arrive at beach house = total time 5 hr 40 min; total 310 miles; Avg Speed = 55 mph

Now Same Trip in EV with L2 (recharge at 25 mi/hr)
200 miles @ 60 mph = 3 hr 20 min
Grab a bit to eat and recharge = 3 hr (Using rated range would have 65 miles remaining +75 from charging = 140 of range)
110 miles @ 60 mph = 1 hr 50 min
Arrive at beach house = total time 8 hr 20 min; total 310 miles; Avg Speed = 37 mph

Now Same Trip in EV with L2 (recharge at 50 mi/hr)
200 miles @ 60 mph = 3 hr 20 min
Grab a bit to eat and recharge = 1.5 hr (Using rated range would have 65 miles remaining +75 from charging = 140 of range)
110 miles @ 60 mph = 1 hr 50 min
Arrive at beach house = total time 6 hr 40 min; total 310 miles; Avg Speed = 46.5 mph

In my case, it would be a huge difference to be able to charge at 50 miles per hour of charge versus 25. It would move the Model S from being a great trip car for trip up to around 220 miles in a single day to being a great trip car for a trip up to 320 miles in a single day. Once we get SuperChargers in the Southeast, the Model S will then be a great trip car for all trips but until then I am hoping some businesses will fill the void to help add approximately 100 miles of reasonable one day driving range.

BTW, installing a supercharger is just out of the cards for anyone not named Tesla. I'm told they require a 12 kV electrical service from the power company along with very expensive transformers and lots of Tesla charging equipment.


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