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Already lost 4 miles of rated range…

I'm a satisfied owner of a 2013 Model S P85 - the other day I was going to take a long day trip with iffy charging options so I opt'd for a range charge. Now I have experience with a range charge as I've done it multiple times at various super chargers…and I can stuff 274 miles of rate-range-electrons into the battery.

But the other day I was only able to get 269 miles of rated range into the battery from my HPWC…

have I already lost 5 miles (1.8%) of my battery in the 5 months/7500 miles I've owned the car?

this does not bode well if this is a trend.

anyone have any thoughts - similar experience?

I've never gotten 274 on the 8-9 times I've range charged. 265-269 is more the norm for me. I wouldn't worry about fluctuations in charging numbers. Every once in while I get 245 on a standard charge, but it's usually 242.

Also, these are just estimates so they are going to bounce around a little bit.

Check out volkerize.com to search the numerous threads on this. Consensus is no loss of range, just fluctuations in readings and the fact that you'd have to catch the car right after it hit full charge to see the true max because leakage then kicks in.

dortor:
Those 5 miles could just be intermittent vampire losses and weren't "topped off" by the charger since the threshold wasn't triggered, i.e. it might have just been a timing issue.
I assume the HPWC wasn't charging at the time when you got into your car that day?

Also, based on the battery stats it could indeed be a permanent loss (estimating 10% after ~50K miles). I posted in another thread the Panasonic image for reference earlier today.

THe battery when new looses a bit then is supposed to level off for a long time.
So yes you may loose a bit with break in.
Thats what i have read.

I have 4500 miles on my 60 and have went from 191 to 185 on average.
But it does seem to be leveling around 185-188.

When I first got the car, it would charge to between 165 and 170 rated range when I told it to do a maximum range charge, and to between 135 and 145 when I told it to do a standard charge.

About a week ago I got upgraded to firmware 1.5 and the charging window now has a slider (and no standard or maximum range buttons so unless I can find them somewhere the only way to select between the two is on the iPhone app).

The only time I charged to maximum range since it charged to 171 rated miles and I stopped it. When I looked at the slider, it looked like there was still a little capacity beyond the green bar indicating how much was filled.

So I have no idea what is going on but I suspect it has nothing to do with lost capacity and more with how willing the software as to how much it is willing to push the battery.

this was right after "stopping" the HPWC charge - since I was waiting for it to be topped off before I left...so it wasn't vampire - I'll keep an eye on it and see where it goes from here.

@skullyb

Exactly the same experience with my S60. Simultaneous with the last software update, the "daily" charge limit clearly changed (discussed extensively elsewhere), before it was a bit more than 80% of max capacity and now it's roughly 80%. On the other hand, I note that driving over my daily route the energy consumption seems to have decreased significantly. Before the update, I rarely fell below the rated energy consumption and now it's generally below or equal. I swear my driving style hasn't changed...

@ dortor, why don't you look at things this way instead… your P85 is EPA rated at 265 miles. At 274 miles you were getting better than the rating. Even at the reduced 269 miles you are getting better than the rating. So your car is still performing better than what the EPA rating indicates. Why are you unhappy?

I personally don't care if my car starts out with 270+ or even 500+ miles of range - the car, as purchased, is EPA rated to provide 265 miles. As long as I'm getting the 265 miles, I'm getting what was represented at the time of purchase. Anything above that is bonus and not guaranteed or expected.

I don't have the latest 4.5 software yet but my charge for range goes to 274 but if I don't drive right away it will go down to about 265 before the charger turns back on. So I always make sure to not fully complete a range charge until right before I plan to leave.

We have noticed a steady degradation in the charge since delivery of our 85 Model S on March 28th. The Standard Charge was initially at 245; we are now down to 238 with each full standard charge. I have sent an inquiry to Tesla and awaiting their response.

bobbiebrowning
Just to check: have you received an upgrade during that time to 4.5.x and - if that's the case - did the charge change after that noticeably? Or was it consistently, slowly decreasing till now?

85 model S 6000 miles. Before the update got 270 ideal miles on standard charge. After update have it on the last notch before max and switched reading to rated miles. Get a consistent 232 miles but could drop 5 miles with vampire loss depending on what time charging ended.

Just because your rated range says 274, miles, this doesn't mean you will get it, even if you drive the 308 Wh rate. There is measurement error in the system that is unavoidable. The actual measurement is a voltage difference across the battery pack terminals. This voltage difference is then turned into a charge (kWh) by an equation that was developed using measured correlation between voltage differences and kWh used. So here are the steps of uncertainty:

1. On a given day, your battery may accept more or less charge, depending on temperature and other variables.
2. There is measurement error in the process of measuring the voltage drop across the battery
3. Potential error or drift in the empirical equation that calculates energy storage (kWh) from voltage drop - the equation was developed from measured data that was subject to specific temperature conditions which may not be the same.
4. Further potential error in calculating Rated Range Miles from energy storage.

The bottom line is not to get too worried about, well, let's say about plus or minus 5% of the maximum rated range. So, about +/- 15 miles. Differences of less than this are most likely not "real", but just due to the measurement/conversion process.

Thanks wheatcraft, great information.

@wheatcraft - super info - thanks!

@Dortor...no worries, the best guide on this issue is the Roadsters...after 5 years those with less than 100k which are the vast majority still have about 90% of their capacity.....and those who have driven over 100K have around 80% of their capacity!!

I used to think I had lost several percent on my Roadster after just half a year, but, now it's summer again and I'm back up to just 2km below what I saw last summer (299 vs 301 or thereabouts in standard mode). I figure it was just the cold Norwegian winter that caused the battery to read a little lower a couple months back.

I've stopped worrying about it. :-)

I own a 2013 Model S and have also become concerned with the reported loss of range in my 40kwh version. When I picked up the car on 5/19/13 at the factory, it had 144 rated miles of range. For the first few weeks I would wake up in the morning and have 142 - 144 rated miles available. Then a few weeks later 140 - 142. Now I am getting 138 - 140. While it is somewhat comforting to know a loss of 6 miles of rated range falls within 5% of 144, I am becoming concerned with the trend. I have a total of 1,800 miles on the car and drive an average of 20 - 25 miles a day with an occasional day of 80 - 100 miles.

I have no evidence to back this up but in the odometer is the average kw/h used by the lifetime of the vehicle. For instance, mine is at 314 kw/h. I think rated range is based on your driving habits. As you kw/hr gradually go up your rated range goes down. Isn't rated range based on your average kw/hr?

@ZoomZoom -

If you charge your car at 7PM in the evening after a 25 miles usage then it would finish charging by 8:30PM. After which the onboard electronic will slowly drain the range until you drive the car the next morning. That might explain the loss of range you mentioned.

The ideal charging time is to set it to the same time each day and have the car stop charging an hour before you use it each day.

You can schedule a preset charging time every day - say starting at 3AM (ends around 5AM) and drive to work at 6AM.

Then you can compare the range at the same time each day for an apple to apple comparison.

Already done, I start charging at 2am and head to the gym at 5am. I believe I am comparing apples to apples...

@ZoomZoom - Did you noticed the drop before or after v4.5 upgrade?

Just the software trying to estimate based on your usage patterns what you have. I don't worry much about the numbers. In Arizona airconditioning usage can bounce it all around.

That and lead foot wives can change the number.........

@wheatcraft I don't agree with your reasoning above. You cite measurement error, daily temperature fluctuations, drift, etc. So if you were right, we'd expect to see ups and downs. Wouldn't somebody in this thread have chimed-in with numbers that were increasing?

But what we see are just downs and no ups.

I'm not overly concerned, because I understand my battery will age a little. But I'm taking note of it.

I started with 244 miles on the dial in March, and now get about 237.

I have a 60kwh battery pack and I have seen a slow, consistent downward trend in my rated miles after a standard charge. I have 7000 miles on the car, I have software v4.5, and I have made it a point to check the numbers within 30 minutes of charge completion. When the car was new, I was getting 190 miles. Now I am getting 179. A "loss" of 11 miles in four months. I agree with ZoomZoom, I don't like the trend.
A couple questions I am going to ask Tesla:
- Does supercharging use--over time--knock down the rated range?
- Does plugging the car in every night, reduce the amount of battery cycles over time and therefore reduce range? In other words, is it better for battery life not to charge the car every night if one does not foresee a need for those miles the next fay?

"day", not fay.

Just following up on the earlier question. Is the rated range individually calculated? So if I'm driving at 370 w/m, then I have less range than someone at 300?

Tesla has said rated range has nothing to do with your driving habits. The only thing calculating off of driving habits is the info in the energy app that shows a projected range. Both rated and ideal ranges are fixed formulas, per Tesla.


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