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Esoteric EV ramblings.

Very msc. EV topics. Freewheelling, where decorum to "stay on topic" is not so critical.

@Brianh, Or how would this sound like as a stratgey tweak. Just steady on with the higher end stuff building the quality in etc. just as originally planned but then if this DBM battery or whatever it's called proves out then go "firstest with the mostest and bestest" on the low end and in time the quality at the top end will gradually pull up value and sales at the low end for the long run. Don't know where this would leave the "Bluestar" unless just tweaked "Bluestar" and let it be the lowend working persons car.

Really a chess game and will be real interesting to see how it all plays out.

But as stated above the other players are not slouches either[at least some of them}. I have a feeling some are going in at lowend with huge production and in some cases they will be good cars. Sounds like a fun challange here for Tesla to me simply, is my flexibility, responsiveness to fluidity in tech advances, better than my competition.

But it's not his. As he pointed out, there are much easier ways to make a few million than to start a new automobile company and a space launch company.

Don't forget that Tesla already has agreements with other larger companies like Diamala and Toyota to provide powertrains, batteries, even car redesigns.

Elon isn't out to just make Tesla the #1 BEV company, he's trying to push the whole world towards EVs any way he can.

Thanks for the input folks. So it's not quite that egocentric with Musk, the fun and challenge is to get the whole planet moving in the way he is moving. Is that correct?

I had it figured more like a team competition type thing was where the fun and challenge came in, as well as the bottom line.

@BrianH, Please a littele more clarification on the statement "But it's not his". Sorry, didn't quite understand this.

Do you both feel that if a game changer battery came along Tesla might tweak overall strategy a bit and let the "Bluestar" become the working folks car. Maybe series could be called "Bluecollar",ha. What do you think of idea to plan for the lowend version to be higher off ground and thus a more global vehicle. Due to obvious differences in roads in varius parts of the planet.

Once again "input" much appreciated.

@Ramon123, What's the latest scoop on the DBM Energy battery?

On the "Whitehouse" call think I will suggest the prseident just have a peek at the Tesla website and maybe get someone in Transportation dept to monitor it and keep him informed. I actually think he will be intrigued. Mentions the Chevy's occasionly but wonder if he even knows about Tesla.

On the BBC call think I will call with my "pitch" and politely bring up producing a new show on Telsa. I will let you know if I get the "brush off" or even harsher response,ha.

When several companies get EV's on the road will the charging locations be such that they serve all different brands of cars?

GM = Government Motors
Since the bailout, the govt owns a part of that car manufacturer so it is only sensible to look after your assets :-). Plus: GM employees and families are a substantial number of voters.
If the DOE loan to Tesla is not paid back within certain time, only then DOE will get stock in Tesla.

I think Tesla running a store in D.C. will help attracting attention far more than calling the switch board. But go ahead, it's worth a shot.

Sorry to be so uninformed. It's just so much easier and quicker to be informed here, probably much to the chagrin of my fellow posters. Was wondering what the price ranges run on the sytems that people are using to charge their Ev's off their home systems now?

Again, question: With various companies junping into the EV market will they not have to first get together and decicde on universal charging setups for various away from home charging stations or is this mote point and they will be all the same anyway?

Appreciate you posters who take time to explain this elementary stuff to me.

Timo, did you see my post about considering turning the "Bluestar" series into the "Bluecollar",ha. 15k series and making them highr off the ground for various global rough terrains. Long time or formerly was a Volvo strategy to accomodate global market. Worked well in third world countries, the "Outback" etc, etc. Not to mention Sweden itself.

Heh. Searcher, "mote" almost works there (small, tiny particle) but it's not an adjective, just a noun. You want "moot", which is an old Anglo Saxon word, very interesting origins. A meeting of elders in which a vote is taken about a question, so to say something is "moot" originally meant postponed for adjudication. Now means unimportant or unresolvable.

In Australia, it's a slang term for the orifice to the primary female sex organs. ;) ;PPpp

Is it a thread for pulling legs….or having fun? I don’t think that there is any valid discussion going on. 250 miles per gallon I really can’t believe it. Which model is it?

Don't know which message you are answering to, but 250mpg is what you get if you count EV energy usage and and convert it to energy content of gasoline. Approximately that. Those EPA mpge "miles per gallon equivalent" -numbers are bad approximations that do not represent real energy usage because they lack the count of well to wheel energy usage of actual ICE car.


car makers came together to standardize for a common charging interface before. They did not design the best, but the cheapest interface. The result is called SAE J1772 and is suitable for North America and Japan (where three phase electric power is rarely used) and EVs with low capacity battery (only
up to 32A, later 80A)

A camel is a horse designed by a committee.

Further standards are proposed to overcome these limitations, but are not compatible. Looks like the early ages of personal computing to me.

Thanks for the input. Wasn't thinking in golbal trems I am afraid. Guess there would be different standardizations for different areas of the globe ar could this be bipassed? Suppose not. BrianH glad to see you are in top form,ha.

Timo, This is kind of carry over from the NASA converation. Figure we could momentarily wonder off topic a bit withoutout too many prompts.

Wanted to say that I agree with you wholeheartedly on the motivation thing and what we could accomplish. The diety sure didn't intend for us to throw up our hands and say "why try" in fact we are given command "Occupy until I come". I think the Tesla cars and what is trying to be accomplished here are perfect examples off this unless some very good theologian says I am missing point here.

One of my things that I have always wanted to see is a cure or preventive for cancers{plural because so many varieties}. Dedicated good scietest have been working soo long on this. Just hope they have the unction to "keep on keeping on". My uniformed opinion here is that the victory will be found in the "arena of the cell". so lets hope more people like Elon Musk who knows how to get things done will come forward in this area to. And if there are "bad spples" in the "big pharma" "big medicine" area they will be found out and extracated.
As far as beliefs without foundations. Well your own expressions express hope for better things for civilization. This to me did not come out of thin air but your heart and logical mind. To me that is a foundation. You can not visibly show me what such a hope looks like as it has no physical, visable shape or anything like that. Also consider absolutes in the physical laws that I now expect you may make your living with every day. So organized and pristine. Also in the knowledge you have of how your body works,again organized beyond words. And to,consider the natural beauty in your native Finland. And when you just consider all the organization and beauty around you. I don't know how anyone can consider this as just an impersonal, no particular good motive, just a happenstance thing that we happened to get caught in.

Think I have pointed this out before but the largest number of "believers" in the scientific community are astronomers and this
because I believe they have a better idea of the sweep of the whole thing.

Know I am now doing what I asked you to lets not debate.
Sorry for not playing fair here but just had to add one more thing. I believe when Timo was born he was created an immortal being to live forever in one place or another. Not a robot but an immortal being free to make his own choice otherwise his choice would not be one of volitional love but a coereced, robotic love. Kindest regards, searcher

As to the continuing story of DBM-Energy batteries, I have alerts posted but not much news forthcoming. If I were an EV automaker, I would certainly be in close touch with that company. I have to assume that they are in talks with many in the automotive world.
DBM-Energy has no desire to get into the car business.
There are so many promising strategies for new lithium battery
concoctions that it seems obvious to me that at least one of them
will go commercial and result in a big advance in battery
technology. However, right now batteries are good enough in terms of their performance (energy capacity, recharge rates) to
compete succesfully with ICEs on that basis. The big obstacle is
still battery prices. And the only way those will get reduced are
by 1) finding cheaper ways to build them (manufacturing techniques)
or 2) find cheaper components or 3) find a recipe that yields
more per power cell, at the same or lower cost. Or any combination thereof. Of course, a battery that lasts three times longer, which supposedly the DBM does, represents a much cheaper battery, on a lifetime basis, but it's the initial cost that's the obstacle. .

So Ramon, The figures I picked up somewhere on the site of a fouteen hundred dollar,six minute charge, thirty year life may have been, shall we say, overly optimistic. The slogan given the potentials and the things that have to be overcome to get to a 15k good commuter car in possibly five years apparently needs to be "quick like a bunny" if this "bird is going to fly". Slow and steady "aint going to get it" I don't believe if in fact the potential is there it all goes back
to elements of Timos discussions of motivation.

This same "quick like a bunny" concept needs to extend across brand standardized charging stations. The various companies diving in will make it much easier on everybody if they can come up with quick, good, well publicized, standardized charging away from home for all brands otherwise they seemingly will be getting the "cart before the horse" and just be a big cumbersome mess that will interfer with EV development period. Of couse when I am talking standarization I am taking into account the current different international elecrical set ups.

I use to commute sixty miles round trip each day and I know if I was still doing so I would be "chomping at the bits" to get a hold of a little 15k EV commuter and then they could take all the time they wanted to on develping the other stuff {luxury, etc}. I still say keep the name "Bluestar" but turn it into a little "blue collar" run around and sales will go out the roof.

Hope the "War Eagles" are on the way. Read in the alumni magazine they already have a car and know they will eat all this stuff up. I saw picture of their car. Have Profs name, plan on calling him Thursday and turn he and his students on to this site. Of course they may be already here. Will discuss my particular thing and you all know what that concerns with the prof offsite and get his input. Sure he will tell me what you all have already but were talking about Auburn here folks, USA National Football Champs.

Getcher Flying motorcycle here!

A "working bike", for military and private use. Expected to cost $40K for the first handmade models.

Hi gang, hope everthing well with everybody. All good here haven't been keeping up with things on site recently.
BrianH,In reference to motorcylcle thing above , google up John Myers, he worked on our periphial equipment in the data processing dept. Knew this guy well. All the accolades on the goole sites are true. One of the finest human beings I have been blessed to know. Wish they would make a movie about mim Peter Fonda would be excellent to play him.

Been reflecting some on strategies of EV makers lately and think somebody needs to come quick with small commuter type EV or maybe Tesla intergrate this quickly into their overall plan. As I said above I used to commute sixty plus miles per day roundtrip and I would have love to have had my hands on a little commuter.Mentioned previously only party in jest that Tesla needs to very quickly develop a "Bluecollar" car instead of a "Bluestar" of course there would be tons of white collars clamoring for this to.

BrianH, Think it was you a good while back that had a picture of EV under carport thing with solar panel covering. Does this much solar paneling take care of small commuter for overnight charge. Of couse I realise alternative charging would be available to if weather didn't cooperate. We kind of discussed this concept at one point in days gone by. Think thin concept would be more than cool for Tesla or anybody with EV.

As said previously to. Know thare has got to be mass information, and installation of away from home charging as EV makers will , in my opinion, be getting the "cart before the horse" as I belive many people who could esily afford EV this would be info thing that would have to be overcome in their mind as they have directly expressesed this to me. Power companies could get in on this mass info thing to.

Everybody stay cool. Searcher

Overnight charging with a solar panel is a non-starter. The Moon isn't bright enough.

Depends Brian. If there's a battery attached to that solar array, then bing, you charge that during the day and then use the battery to charge your car at night.

Either that, or you need to dump power to the grid during the day (when electricity is expensive) and then buy it back at night (when it's cheap).

Yeah, I know. But I couldn't resist.

BrianH, Thousands of comedians out of work and youre trying to be a commedian, shame, shame. Oh Brian you do know what a comodeodian is don't you?

Now back to original comment. I know there are numerous examples on here of people charging overnight off large whole house solar systems which is very cool. What I had reference to, was the carport looking structure enough to actually charge an EV overnight. Working off the same princples that the large whole house solar systems work off. Trying to get at the minimum size such solar paneling would have to be to charge EV overnight. This might be helpful for people wanting to charge like this but don't want to invest in huge whole home solar system. So if you know put aside and resist your "wise guy" proclivities and answer the darn question. THKYUVERMUCH TCB Have a funny day as I expect they all are to you. But that's a good thing. With allnonrespect,ha. Searcher

I still say the Moon isn't bright enough. >:(


BrianH, Of course your right buddy, the moon probably isn't bright enough. To bad ,huh.

Everybody, I haven't been on the site for awhile and it seems poor BrianH has turned into a Lunar Tune. Must have been all his Looney Tune jokes. I hope he recovers soon.

Now I know the question I asked above about the carport solar panel set up may have been rather uninformed , if so, please excuse my navivete {I know this word coreectly spelled will be a help to poor Brian}. So can an arrangement like this chrage an EV overnight? And how big of solar panel would be likely range in size to charge a small commuter type EV.

Now back to poor Brian. Brian why dont you consult with the coyote of "Roadrunner" fame and devise a space ship that would carry all your necessary amenities for a short stay on in advance and then get the coyote to devise a couple of devices you could strap on your backs and go to the moon. Be sure not to carry the roadrunner along as this would be a teriible distraction as you might need to consult with the coyote on technical issues such as getting back etc. I am sure while you two were there the moon would be plenty bright. Bon Voyage Brave Space Travelers.

Searcher, as long as you persist in asking about "solar" "charge" and "overnight" in the same sentence, this is all the answer you will get. There's no sol at night, so no charging.
If you want to charge up a storage bank during the day, or feed equivalent power into the grid and buy the same back at night, then there are some specifics to consider.

Brian, Thanks so much for the great information that there are no solar rays at night. Oh how enlightened I feel.

I have a feeling that you knew what I was talking about all the time as I mentioned similar to the charging done off large whole house charging systems. But that's OK I am fully aware of your comedic tendencies. Were you the class clown?

Now if you are ready we will address charging up to storage bank in day or the other option you mentioned. Can this be done with as small a setup as the picture of the carport looking arrangement I think you possibly posted quite awhile back. Not sure if you posted this picture or not but haven't been able to locate it. Dont even remeber what forum or thread it was under.

I guess this means the "Brave New Voyage" with you and the coyte{sp?] is out. Gee I was kind of looking forward to that, along with the "Roadrunner" of course, "Beep, Beep".

hello you two lonesome,

won't let this become a private thread for searcher and brian. No gain for humanity if you two duel it out alone. So back to the question.1
As a small commuter EV I would classify something that you take to town and back (50 miles roundtrip) and it is a small & lightweight car. Perhaps Nissan Leaf class. So we have e.g. 200 Wh per mile consumption, resulting in 10kWh energy that must be provided to the car. There are some losses, lets say 90% wall-to-car efficiency and 80% for the amentioned storage bank with charging electronics and self-discharge losses in the storage bank. This increases daily energy need to ~14kWh.

Now I use the U.S. insulation map to look up the insolation level for a car port roof pointing due south and tilted to latitude. Most of U.S. receive at least 5Wh per square meter and day in the annual average. So the sun energy from 3 square meters exceeds our daily need of 14kWh. But current solar panels are only 20% efficient, so we need 5 times that area, giving a 3kW solar array of 15 square meters, that's 9 by 18 feet. This will nicely fit onto a car port.

Now here are the problems. The sun shines stronger in summer than in winter. I think Brian, we can agree on this. What to do:
* go with a larger module area (3->4.5kW) and a storage bank that can buffer several cloudy days, e.g. 100kWh.
* When there is snow on the car port roof, you better hose it away since it will start slipping down only at temperatures around 0°C on a sunny winter day.
* increase the roof tilt to earn more in winter and less in summer (when excesses are produced anyway). Plus, the snow starts slipping more easily.

In total, this setup will cost roughly 20 grand. Could discuss the details now but rather long post already.


Volker, Thanks for the information and the time it likely took you to come up with it. Now a subjective question for you. Provided person lived in area where snow and ice not a factor. Neat setup or no. Guess would take to long to recoup cost whichever way you slice it. Wish we could find out who had this setup and get some of their input.

Don't worry about Brian and I we are cool. Brian brings a lot of laughter and wit to this site. Wouldn't be the same without ole BrianH. Was kind of dissappointed about canceled space voyage though.

Have you send the T-shirt where the coyote has the roadrunner by the neck and is saying "Beep, Beep, Heck" except the T-shirt didn't say heck.

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