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New Battery Technology?

Here is an interesting article about a technology that allegedly can double or triple the capacity of lithium ion batteries. I know this kind of thing comes up a lot, and often does not pan out, but it definitely looks promising. Sorry if it has been discussed before.

http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/11/smartphones-battery-life-do...

Thoughts?

Reminds me of ALTAIR -nano batteries- why didn't they take off? Was it only the price? Scale?demand?

The altair nano technology weighed at least 4 time what the LiNCA technology weighs per Wh. Anyone for a 7000 pound Model S.

Didn't I wrote reply to this? If I did it is gone now.

Altairnano batteries have too low energy density for automotive use. High power density, but low energy density. Perfect for handheld powertools and remote controlled fast toys, but not for cars.

There has been a "new battery technology" every week for as long as I can remember. Unless it's in production and being used in a real product, it's not worth talking about (unless you're the manufacturer that will make that real product).

I disagree. It is at least as worthwhile as most of the discussions here. I agree that any particular "breakthrough" is mostly hype, but that doesn't mean it can't lead to production ready technology.

Here is an interesting articule on new battery tech and how it may effect Tesla:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1024301-will-tesla-disrupt?source=market...

For those in the US have a great Thanksgiving.

ghillair: Great article!

This is why I have Tesla stock, and plan to buy one of these cars.
Once over the hump, there will be no stopping.

I am actually on the fence (altho invested in Tesla) because of the possible battery future. If at some point a new battery comes out that significantly increases the kWh and decreases the size of the battery pack then the Nissan (Leaf), Toyata (Rav4E), Ford (c-Max), etc become real cars over night. That leaves Tesla behind the times as far as an affordable car because all the others have to do is put in the new battery and they are done (for the most part). Tesla will have to design and build an entire smaller car.

The Model S and X will become the most affordable cars in their class at that point.

I do not think a new battery tech will happen quickly and cheaply. New batteries will come out and the existing battery prices will drop. The new batteries will be as expensive or even more expensive than the current one. This is Tesla's advantage. While other manufacturers have to turn to the newer more expensive batteries to come close to Tesla's range, Tesla can offer the same or slightly better range with cheaper batteries AND an extreme range for those willing to pay it.

@Sudre_

Tesla is already working on the genIII anyway, so should be covered.

Sudre_;
Most of the new techs claim cost reductions of 2X or more...

Nice article, but it didn't mention the other important factor in battery techs: power density.

If Model S needs 8000+ cells to create 300kW power and power density doesn't change, you still need 8000+ cells to create that same power even if capacity doubles. I have no idea if that improves or not. It's possible that it too improves; potential is there to improve a lot, but no-one seems to care.

Hybrid battery approach makes sense. Smallish (12kwh) high power, high cycle battery for first 40 miles. Larger, energy dense, less costly, and lower cycle life chemistry for extending range. Two-stage charging with high powered battery charging first or both simultaneously with dual chargers.

Valid point Timo.
I know that this is one of the things that designers are working on, but not sure of the current (excuse the pun) status of this.
Does anyone have up to date information about this?

well Timo... even if power density does not change, is 300kW too little for you? :D

Hey, while we are about it lets go for 600.
Cant stand those pesky Lambo's!

Get dome 120C batteries like some of the RC batteries are (for short period of time, 60C constant) and 85kWh could produce 10.2MW. Can't stand those pesky nitrodragsters. And I want that 30 second recharging. Definitely.

(just for fun, there was one lab article that mentioned 10000C currents. 1.2 Gigawatts? Well, 120kWh would do that.)

From what i have rad, and between the lines reading, i suspect that Tesla is waiting for the battery production to increse tremendously before producing their 3rd gen, but possibly the Model x will use somethign a little more advanced than the Model s if it only goes into production in the end of 2014. Battery packs from tesla seem to eb desinged in a way that they can be upgraded rather easily with most of the protection systems built into the battery pack.

Wht this means is that if they decide to make or use litium air batterries then the only thing standing in their way to upgrade the batterries is the manufacture of them.

If Panansonic for instance decided that there tests on a lithium air battery work they i am sure would be in contact with Tesal and would be working very closely with them in making sure the battery pack was built with all the protections needed.

I an sure it was intentional that Tesla decided to go with 7000 cells in their battery rather than say 100 bigger cells. With bigger cells any failure would be traumatic and casue the full battery pack to be made innert, wheras with the huge amount of cells they use if one cell fails then it is isolated and the battery can still be used with no real life experince change.

If they do manage to devlop or have developed a battery with double the energy capacity it would just mean a change of batterries used and possiby checking that the safet goo they use can cope with the higher energy failure.

I have heard that there is one Chinese manufacturer that is very comfortable in announcing that they will be relesing a battery the same sixe but with 10x the energy storage.

If this is true and they are balenced to be able to be used in EV's then the whole picture changes. Even if Tesla decide to resrict battery size by 50% it would still mean a possible range of over 1000 miles per charge.

Now even i am suspect at this stage, if a simple chemical change produces so much more range then EV's will be changed in a big way.

Tesla will lose it's basic advantage of range in ev's but as the forruner in the technology and the possiblity that they will be the first to use this technology i suspect they will be out front for a long time, especially on the safety of the battery side.

The problme for Tesla is that if the battery density increases by even 5 times what it is now and the size of the battery halves as a result, it would not be impossible to see people converting thier own ice cars as it would then be a real option.

Also this would mean that the BMW i3 could reasonably easily be converted to a 300 miles hysbrid with the ice engine for emergencies or even just to charge the batterries when there is no charging station available.

@flubaluba

If a car can go 1000 miles and another for 300 miles then the 1st has an advantage. Thus Tesla will not lose its current advantage it will GAIN an even better one!

I just wonder how the Li-air battery will work in Bejing - there is no oxygen in the air ( sorry correction - how immune the battery is using poluted air )


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