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German pricing, I'm in tears and out of the game

In Germany the Tesla Model S will cost MORE €UROS THAN $ IN US!... so, the price is more than 30% above the US-pricing!
That's real bad, Teslas. I'm a stockholder, reservationholder and follower since 2010, but this is just ... wordless.
Better, I use my ICE for the next Years and everyone else should, too ... the teslaguys always told me, there will be more or less 15% priceincrease, but 30%?
71000€ for the 60KW/h and more than 100.000€ pricing for the performance is just barefaced.
If Your goal is to bring EV's to a broader market, just make a fair price!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-20/tesla-begins-europe-push-with-h...

Regarding the competition, the S performance at €95 900 is priced about €7000 lower than BMW M5 or Mercedes E63 AMG which means it should be able to compete.

But the 60kw version is €74.100 which would get you 100hp more in a BMW.

Interesting. European taxes are buried in the purchase price. US taxes are unbundled. Could have a great cross-Atlantic political debate over which is more insidious: burying the tax in the price, or giving consumers prices stripped of the taxes.

For those in Europe, our U.S. taxing is even more complicated than you might imagine: I just got my car, and the Colorado sales tax was 4.0%. However, when I go to get my plates, I'll be paying another tax bill (which recurs annually, sliding down as the car depreciates). I don't recall how much, but I would guess it's another 3% - each year.

ronlitvak: Unfortunately we normally have to pay an annual tax bill too. And in the Netherlands they add an extra tax to cars before the VAT plus if its a company car they tax you on the value of that too. Luckly for the Dutch EVs currently pay zero annual tax, zero extra car tax and zero for the company car. However these are exemptions which only apply for the short term.

Jacques,
I know that for many months (since Elons tweet), but it's not 3-phase as 3-phase...
The simplest solution is use 3-phase socket but power the car only from between-phase voltage which is easier to implement (but you won't get 20kW from 3x32A socket), you don't need to change plug, US plug with 2 high power pins is fine...
Or there is more complicated solution where you are using all 3 phases and US plug may not be enough... For example Mennekes has 5 pins (3 phases + neutral + earth).
Well, this is wrong topic to discuss charging, I just expected to see more information about it before or simultaneously with price reveal.

@Jolinar - George B's post on 3-phase charging yesterday on TMC:

"We don't view 3-phase charging as a pricing issue. However, just to clarify, European Model S will have the ability to 3-phase charge.

GeorgeB"

Volker, in France, we pay VAT on business cars. Only what we call "trucks" are sold without VAT and annual CO2 taxes. To be "truck", it must have only two seat (driver + passenger) and a trunk in place of the rear seats.

Ronlitvak, it's similar in Europe, except that all prices include VAT of the country where you are, and each country have its own level for VAT from 15% to 25%.
We add tax bill each year 1) for cars that produce more than 190 g co2 /km for people and 2) for business cars in function of co2 produced by the car. Example = 5300 euros/year for a jeep gd cherokee pentastar (246 g co2/km) and 0 euro for Tesla Model S

Don't see where is the news. BMW 550i starts at $63,000 on the US website, the same starts at 71,500 eur in germany. Which is $94,900 US. A difference of $31000. That is about 30%. And realistically, also in the US the 5 series is cheaper than any equivalent model S (in terms of horsepower). However, the closest competitors to the S are cars like Audi A7, BMW 6 4-door coupe, and Mercedes CLS. They are based on the conventional sedans, but command a hefty price premium, for style and whatnot. The 650i, which obiously has the same engine as the 550i, starts at $86,000 in the US, more than $20 000 over the 550i. Could be it has more options standard. But that is a substantial difference. In germany the 640i with 235kW motor starts at 79,000 Euro, much closer to the 60kW model S, and the 650i starts at 93,000 Euro with 330kW engine. So this has been going on forever, cars in the US are cheaper, even cars that are made in germany and exported to the US, due to VAT, import taxes, shipping, or just the market expectations. It would be foolish to think that tesla will be the first to reverse this trend, when they are still nt out of the woods yet and their primary goal is to survive long enough to make the cheaper models, not to make model S affordable to everyone tomorrow. And even the more affordable model will be a 3series car, which means "relatively affordable".

ddruz,
you don't understand... I know that charging from 3-phase socket is possible, but nobody from Tesla confirmed that it will be 20kW (from 3x32A is 22kW possible), If I take only 2 phases from 3-phase socket it is not true support.

Vall, of course that makes a lot of sense. Just cut us Europeans some slack for a few days. We're suffering from sticker shock. Do you remember a year ago, when American prices were announced? The forums were even busier than today, and there was a lot of disappointed clamoring going on. Reality bit you then, it's biting us today.

@Volker

I wish it would be cheaper as well, don't get me wrong, but i expected something like that, so not that shocked. And to clear the confusion, I live in Germany, not a German though.

Yeah, you can still get sticker shock in the US as well, though. My configuration for a non-performance 85 shows on the MyTesla page as being $77000, but in reality I'm going to be writing Tesla a check for more like $94000 when it arrives (and that's before the price increase). If they don't change the rules next year I'll eventually reduce my taxes by $7500, but that's really different than actually subtracting it from the price. The prices you see on the US site are really misleading, so I was definitely expecting shock when they showed up in Europe, even though Tesla did exactly what they said they were going to (and basically the same as the Canadian pricing, which also brought shock when announced for the same reason).

"71000€ for the 60KW/h" ...um, you realize that a 60kw/h in the US is $75000 after taxes, before federal and state EV incentives right?

Considering the delivery across a huge ocean and such, I think you're getting off OK over there - plus remember how much more expensive your gasoline costs, way bigger savings compared to electricity than what we save here in the states.

You're right Vall and tbh I don't actually know what I'm talking about since I am in Norway and not in Germany. Here, the 60kwh costs 450'000 NOK and the 550i is 1'300'000 NOK.

So we really don't have much to complain about!

Frank - that Model S vs. 550i price comparison is insane. How is every decently well-to-do Norwegian not already on the Model S reservation list? Does any other "luxury" car, even a base model 328i or C250 come close in price there?

Funny you should say that because my most recent facebook status was a suggestion to invent a new name for 5 series or E series customers in Norway: IDIOTS.

The 520d has a similar price to the 60kwh. Because in Norway, taxes are based on co2 emissions, weight and horsepower. The M5 has a lot of that, so the price is 1'800'000 compared to the Model S p 600'000.

So yeah there's a good reason Norway is the #2 market for Tesla after the US even though only 5 million people live here. There's 800 reservations so far which is a huge number with so few citizens.

Ah ok, well the 520d is actually a decent competitor, wouldn't want Tesla to take 100% of the luxury car sales lol.

Kinda surprising you guys are so hard on co2 emissions and giving huge EV breaks, considering that you're a big time oil exporter right?

Although I guess the US produces a ton of oil too.

What are we supposed to do, stop pumping the stuff up from the sea? We like money... But I guess we need to clear our conscience so we have reasonably environmentally conscientious politicians.

Unless I am mistaken oil is not only used to fuel cars, for example, they run on tyres, then there is plastic, shall I go on ?

Anyway the issue here is that we seem to have the new US pricing and options translated into EU pricing and options while many of us registered to purchase when the old US pricing and options were available.

In addition we need technical information from Tesla on what they mean by supporting 3-phase.

I think the main issue is that some non-US people looked at the US, post-incentive, pre-tax price and thought for some reason that would be comparable to the EU post-tax price.

And yeah, 3-phase charging.

archibaldcrane +1
of course if somebody compare US post-incentive, pre-tax price with EU post-tax post-import-duty pre-incentive price we can see 40% difference as Whity Whiteman suggested, though actually it's much lower increase.
If it's true that import duty on cars is 10% (as Norbert.Vienna stated), than Tesla managed to make good price for EU.

Signature performance in US before VAT is $107,900 = 97900+7500+2500 (82004€) price increase included, tax credid excluded

Signature performance in EU before VAT is $109,748 (83409€ = 91750/1.1) price increase included, import duty (10%) excluded

That means Tesla increased price only by $1848 (1405€) as transport and other business expenses, which seems quite impressive.
Other expenses can't be affected by Tesla :(

And to clear the confusion, I live in Germany, not a German though. (Vall)

Good to know, welcome! Where exactly do you live? Are you going to purchase a "German" Model S?

The EU vs US price increase is aprox 14% (EU/US 0,78)

A price increase was expected, after all they have opened up shops and will also need to ship the car and make it EU ready + some additional development cost.

I belive the EU price is just spot on, neither higher nor lower than expected.

@Jacques the three phase charger will be exclusive to Euro models only. There was a video posted here a few weeks back of the Tesla engineer who is responsible for this design; discussing the connector. It is not out of the question that the connector may be physically different than what is currently used on Model S'.

Who did not expect that Europrean pricing would be higher by a significant margin?

(that's a rhetorical question)

It sounds like the exchange rate can take some of the blame.

I recall a time when the Euro was less than a Dollar. They were close to par for some time. I used to visit Europe much more then. As the Euro got stronger, my holidays got shorter and less frequent.

Don't forget the value of not having to buy petroleum products. It will make us all stronger in the long run.

There are no VATs in the US, anywhere. There are sales taxes, which are added to the price at time of sale, and they vary not only by state but by county and city. A VAT is paid at each transfer between suppliers and is part of wholesale price, at least theoretically. So... 20% VAT (sales tax, basically) + 10% import duty (you guys should get on the European parliament about that) is +30%. Here in the US we don't have import duties on foreign cars. Sales taxes vary between about 4% and 10%.

But then there are incentives from the US and local governments. The US government gives a $7500 personal income tax credit for EVs or PHEVs with battery at least 16kWh. California has a state income tax credit. Washington state (sales tax 9-10%) waives the sales tax on pure EVs.

Of course, on the other hand, gas is far more expensive in Europe due to yet more taxes. Here in the US right now it is about $3.30/gallon. That is, I think (using 1 euro=$1.40) about 0.62 euros/liter. So, although thanks to your import and VAT taxes the car COSTS more, but it also SAVES much more due to the very high gas prices in Europe.

My experience from living in Europe is that for a person doing the same job as in the US, pay is lower, taxes are higher, and cost of living is higher still. So, one solution of course is to emigrate.... we welcome our European friends to the USA! Then you can get your Model S at US prices!

If you combine the import duty (10%) and VAT (19%) that's pretty much the whole increase. Looks like the transport etc. costs are minimal.

DTsea Europe is many-faceted. In Norway, the starting wage at McDonalds is $25 and hour if you're 20 years or older, with another $5 for working weekends and nights. I don't think the US can quite match that ;-)

"In Norway, the starting wage at McDonalds is $25 and hour if you're 20 years or older, with another $5 for working weekends and nights."

What?!!!

What is wrong with you guys? How much are large fries? $10?

2.20 EUR in Finland. Translates to about $2.90. "Pay is lower" is relative term, it depends of what kind of job is in question. Pretty much everywhere in Europe minimum wages are quite a bit higher than US so low level positions usually have quite a bit higher salaries than equal jobs in US. High level positions probably pay less but OTOH you get a lot with less money, for example education is basically free, no huge college funds needed for kids.


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