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Disproving the FUD about battery swap not capable in current cars!

Video of the guy who design the electrical quick connect for the battery!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGueTKezPZE

Some people on the forum have been spreading misinformation about how they know that the current cars cannot work with pack swap as demonstrated by Elon without modification.

This is so untrue and I've asked them to supply photo as they were making the claim. I've provided a link to the video of the guy who designed the electrical quick connect for the battery. starting at 1:04 he describes the connection and also the rapid mate fluid connection. also at about 1:06 he describes 4 guys who changed out the battery in 10 minutes without breaking a sweat.

Beautiful. Thanks.

It's possible that both camps are correct and that there are, in fact, no ne'er do wells in the lot.

Maybe "A" version batteries were not built to be swap ready?

Like you, PD is a Tesla supporter, Model S owner and frequent contributor to this forum. He will occasionally ruffle some feathers with his vigorous defense of his views and his refusal to just parrot the company line. He may be wrong on this issue (I really don't know who's right) but his posts appear to be his opinion based on his own (perhaps inaccurate) observations. Being wrong does not make you a liar.

@Amp, the battery version doesn't take away the ability to supercharge, just limits it to 90KW on older versions. The engineer in the video was responsible for designing the electrical connection and they have demoed 4 guys swapping out the pack in 10 minutes back when the model s was just starting deliveries. I doubt there is two different versions with one not having the swap capability. this seems to be designed from the ground up. he is also the guy responsible for designing the connector for europe.

@Big T, i seriously don't understand how someone can look at the bottom of the MS and conclude that it cannot be swapped. i don't know how anyone can look at the actual connections and have asked for pictures which were never provided. when you claim something that is contrary to what has been demonstrated, you should have some kind of proof to back it up. Otherwise you are just making shit up. Don't know how he could be supporting tesla by spreading FUD and basically calling Elon a liar. Smoke a mirror is what someone else had drawn a parallel to, @Chris?

Eddie, the guy is talking about what they did in the shop, when they were developing it. Doesn't mean the production cars have it. So the connectors
were made to be swap friendly, but it does not mean the production cars
are capable of it. I took a look at the video and can't find evidence
of production cars actually supporting it. Kind of what you think you
saw and opened a thread for.

I don't know whether they do or don't but I definitely can't come to
same conclusion you come do, looking at the same video.

The ONLY thing this video says, is that it is doable, IF the car is set
up for it. That is something we all know, since the event.

But there's nothing that would confirm the production car has this
capability. I think Lola also confirmed that due to physical elements,
it can't be done on current production cars.

PS: When people state things they believe, in a civilized manner, they aren't liars, even if they're wrong. But it is impolite to grab some
irrelevant video and come to some conclusion (I don't get based on what)
and make some of your claims..

@car t, you obviously didn't watch the video. the video has everything to do with the discussion. this engineer was responsible for designing the quick connect that is in the battery and that is how it is connected today. he describes the connectors and how they look like and also made reference to the fluid connections.

man, there is some serious fud around here.

you will see in a couple of months when the first swap station is setup.

@ eddiemoy,

Perhaps, using your advice, we should also wait a few months before calling others out as liars? PD watched as they replaced his battery and talked with the technicians about it. You watched a video.

Actually, Elon tweeted back on 18 June "Battery pack swap works will all Tesla Model S cars, past and present. It was always there."

thanks omarsultan!

either ELON is lying or PD. will know soon enough.

I suspect the reality is somewhere in the middle, i.e., the swapping capability exists in all cars, but early manual swaps took a long time due to the newness of the process and the likelihood that the technicians performing the swap were being extra careful because they may have been doing it for the first time, etc.

Others have reported service center pack swaps in under 30 minutes, so the manual process appears to be improving. There is no reason to believe that something that takes a service center 30 minutes can be accomplished by a robot in under 2 minutes. Easy peasy! :)

Oops... correction:

There is no reason to believe that something that takes a service center 30 minutes cannot be accomplished by a robot in under 2 minutes.

So, I think it would be good to dial things back a bit.

I have no reason to doubt @PD and I believe he has actually posted the work order in the past. But I also do not think @PD's experience precludes swapping working as Elon has described and shown.

To be honest, considering most of us have make ~$100K bets on Elon's say so, I find it odd that this is place where folks start to doubt him.

O

Eddie,

I think Lola, or someone who took a long good look at the underside of the car, during modifications, mentioned that there are physical elements in the way of simply dropping the battery, or it being simply accessed.

The video never states current cars are swap ready, in terms of the
kind of swapping we're talking about. Only that the plugs are much
like on a laptop and not bolted down.

Of course the battery can be swapped. But I am referring to someone
posting pics a while ago (maybe on the other forum), showing why it
isn't possible. The width of something is over width of something
else, so it is physically in the way of being done as in the event.

Again, I think it might have been Lola.

I am not talking about plugs. This video says nothing about actual production cars being able to do actual swaps on an automated quick
swapping station (as during the event).

But I hope Lola can elaborate (if he indeed was the one making the claim).

I am sure the Nissan Leaf service center can get the battery out in about 30 minutes but that doesn't mean they can be swapped quickly.

Like AR says, nobody doubts first person accounts of "difficulties" especially with new service, new techs and a procedure as unwieldy as swapping a battery.

Here are the baseline facts:

Nov 2012 Dave Duff, Battery and Charging Team Lead @ Stanford states that Tesla has been designed to plug and go with a giant plug and quick connects to the coolant and other systems. 10 minute demonstrations.

June 2013 Tesla demonstrates swap but does not state a time frame.

February 2014 EM announces that the first trial station will connect SF and LA in "a few months".

And this last part is what I am curious about.
Whether it will be possible with cars on road
now. And the system to deal with different
batteries being of different health, etc.

Elon tweeted back on 18 June "Battery pack swap works will all Tesla Model S cars, past and present. It was always there."

@eddiemoy,

Other than second hand video links, do you have anything, perhaps something you have verified on your own car, to disprove PD?

Your use of the term liar and setting this up as an PD or Elon is lying question. Doing so is setting up a very poor dynamic on the forums and probably not an argument that will end the way you want it to. It sounds like you aren't willing to hear that anything that Tesla says isn't quite true.

Perhaps you should look no further than the video's of the 120kW charging where it was said that the update was simply a software update that would be "Rolled out to all customers". Right or wrong, this set the expectation of all owners and to everyone inside of Tesla that everyone would be charging at 120kW. Trust me when I say that I can not charge at 120kW and it took weeks and weeks to confirm this with Tesla. Even now most owners of limited cars do not know this.

I've looked under my car, and as an engineer, I am at a loss at to how my battery could be removed without a little more work than was shown in the "live demo". Perhaps with a small "swap upgrade" kit. Perhaps this has already been put into production with the newer cars...

I'll leave it to you to use the word liar, but perhaps you need to be more careful taking marketing speak at it's word.

Peter

Let's soften the acrimony here. Regardless of previous observations or experiences -

Does anyone not believe Elon will deliver on his promises for swap? He said:

1. Pilot stations in a few months

2. All Model S cars will work with it.

If there are any challenges, does anyone actually believe Tesla will not work them out to make it so?

No one has to be made out to be a bad-actor to accept this and move forward.

There are many interesting points to discuss about swapping. Why not focus on thosee positive possibilities instead of criticizing each other?

+1 Mark K

The problem is that the people who claimed intimate knowledge have never owned their own sharp words.

Having been on the brunt end of their attacks, I still wish we could bury the hatchet, as MS owners, and focus on the "positive possibilities".

@Mark K

Not to nitpick this too much but:

Elon had previously said 2 swap station to be built, one between LA-SF, the other between DC-Boston.

He said they would be up and running during Q4 2013.

And to really answer your question, I fully believe that swap will work on my car just as soon as it charges at 120kW.

Peter

My skepticism about the viability of battery swap is centered more around the business case, as I stated on the other thread, but since this thread focuses on what Dave Duff had to say in the Stanford talk, here are a few comments on point. Nothing in this comment is intended as criticism of Dave, Elon, Tesla or anyone else. Let's just review what the engineer actually said.

At 55:13, Dave says:

"The parts I designed are the plug, the socket really, on the back of the battery pack and the plug that's in the car that connects the two.

Ever time they put a battery pack in the car I cross my fingers and cringe. Occasionally it goes badly and when it does people get really upset because they're sort of toward the end right, and now it's my fault that the production has stopped. Very disconcerting".

This happens at the factory. In pristine conditions with all new parts. What will it be like in the middle of the boondocks, when hot, when cold, a little corrosion, a little road dirt.

I did engine and transmission overhauls for several years in my youth. You'd be amazed at how often things just don't want to line up or a thread strips or a brand new fluid connection leaks and has to be attended to. Personally, I wouldn't try replacing a 1,000 lb component on my car while enroute on a long trip.

Do you have a citation for announcement for Q4 2013 since that is the first I've heard?

Elon's estimate of the roll-out time frame for swap is on the videos of the swap demo at Hawthorne.

Another comment from Dave Duff at Stanford:

(Audience member asks about battery swap)

"So there is a company right across street from us, Better Place that had talked about doing that and I got to say that - this is my personal bias - no way. (laughs),

The reason I say that is not because it's not possible. It's because it's not... I say it because I don't personally believe that it's practical."

Dave goes in to say the the biggest problem is getting a bunch of car companies to agree to a standard form for a battery pack. Mentions that Tesla does not have that problem with the Model S and X, because they use the same battery, but clearly he is not a big fan of swap.

Audience question: Back to the removable battery question. So it can't be done with the Roadster, but wouldn't it be feasible with future models to design it in such a way that it's easier to exchange batteries?

Dave:
"Yeah, yeah. You certainly could do it with the model S. And I wouldn't say, I'm not saying it couldn't technically be done. I think you really could. Right now we've got like 30 fasteners to hold the thing in. But obviously if you design another system for attaching the package... It could be a challenge."

@Hawthorne video, when?

It was said a number of places at various times just after the event. Most of the news stories from right around then all havethe same details on it also. For video of the event :http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/22/more-tesla-battery-swap-videos-including-qa-with-elon-musk/

And skip down to where it says:

So, he indicates in the video above that these battery swap stations are likely to be available starting in the 4th quarter.
http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/22/more-tesla-battery-swap-videos-inclu...

Now can we just delete this thread? It seems to do no good for anyone involved.

So far @eddimoy has accused me of being a liar and having an agenda. I don't know what that agenda might be, as a two-Tesla owner. I have not been hostile towards @eddie in any way, yet he replies to my facts with a vehemence and aggressiveness that is baffling. I have stated the facts as I personally see them on my own car, and asked him to refute them, listingthe specific engineering hurdles on my own car. I gave my own experience with the swap of my own battery pack in August 2013 at approximately 8,000 miles, and the techincian's laughing reaction to battery swap feasibility. I have stated nothing that conflicts (in my view) with anything that Elon has said, but I do extend his remarks to include some modifications to our cars in order for swap to work.

Elon says it is built in. I accept that. That does not mean that our cars are ready, right now, today, for swap. That I know is not true because the physical assembly process will not allow the battery to simply drop down without removing the underside plastic panels. I have never called Elon a liar and do not appreciate being called one here. @eddiemoy, what is your motivation? Are you just the playground bully?

@chris, my take away from Dave duff's talk is that he doesn't believe in pack swap in general with multiple vendors. He said it works with model s and x.

What he is also saying regarding the assembly process is that they are still doing it manually. If it was automated a robot would be able to align and put on without much issue.

@PD, my agenda is to stop FUD. What you are posting flys against what has been shown. You also mention your pack has bolt on electrical connections. Care to share some pictures?? This is the lying part!
Still no pictures of the bolt on electrical connections and fluid connections?

@eddie, I posted the work order on my August 2013 battery replacement, which was done well after the swap demo. I stated very specifically at the time that the Tesla shop time allocation for technician time was 3 hours. That has since been amended to 3.5 hours according to another poster here who had his battery replaced after mine.

The Tesla Rockville technician who swapped my battery worked late one night to complete the swap, along with changing out my drive motor and inverter, so I could leave early the next morning on a road trip. He told me that it actually took him over five hours for the swap.

I have no reason to dispute what the technician told me. In any case, I don't know how my relating that experience turns me into a liar. Do you honestly think I would take on Tesla on their own hosted website forum and make an untrue claim about them, their car, or the service that I received? I have one Tesla and another on order. I depend on them for service and warranty. I would be insane to lie here about anything they have done or said to me. Again, you have not refuted a single fact that I have laid out in my observations. The video proves nothing, as @chris has clearly shown.

Why must you ne so hostile? What is your agenda? Why are you so adamant? Whatever the answer, the truth will be known soon. Sometimes I say things that are not favorable to Tesla (my loose bumper bolts posts are an example). Other times I say things that defend Tesla where warranted in my opinion (see my comments on patience and waiting for 6.0 to get lowered suspension feature back). Your hostility is unbecoming and baffling.


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