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Battery tech

Hello all.

Just read from autobloggreen about some new battery manufacturer called "Planar Energy". (http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/27/planar-energy-to-begin-small-scale-...)

They seem to have tech for pretty good Wh/kg batteries. From one of their pdf (http://www.planarenergy.com/Press%20Releases/Technology%20Review_%20Safe...)

"One of them combines lithium manganese oxide with other ions, and operates at about three to five volts with a charge capacity of 200 milliamp hours per gram."

Calculating that as 3.5V * 200mAh/g you get 700mWh/g or 700Wh/kg. to put that in right context: Roadster battery: 450kg. Drop 30% off as supporting structure: 315kg battery * 700 = 220.500kWh battery. Nearly four times as much as current tech is. That would allow roadster to go 200 * 4 = 800 miles with one charge.

1)Breakthrough!

Directory:Andrea Rossi's Cold Fusion Energy Catalyzer (E-Cat): Frequently Asked Questions

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Andrea_Rossi%27s_Cold_Fusion_Ener...

How does this technology compare to solar, wind, hydro-electric, geothermal, and other green technologies?
... First of all, unlike hydro-electric or geothermal power, future variations of the E-Cat could be portable and used to power vehicles such as cars, boats, and airplanes...

2)New battery technology may allow for complete recharging within minutes

http://www.gizmag.com/3d-thin-film-batteries-recharge-in-minutes/18187/

The implications for electric vehicles are particularly exciting. "If you had the ability to charge rapidly, instead of taking hours to charge the vehicle you could potentially have vehicles that would charge in similar times as needed to refuel a car with gasoline," Braun said. "If you had five-minute charge capability, you would think of this the same way you do an internal combustion engine. You would just pull up to a charging station and fill up."

Braun and his team believe that the technology could be used not only for making electric cars more viable ...

There are tons of new solutions, since people are starting to look for alternatives. Not a problem at all. Creativity and innovation always was part of mankind.

Here's the one question I've had since I started thinking about purchasing an electric car to begin with....How long will the battery last, how much will a replacement cost, and how will it be replaced when the battery is place underneath the chassis???

coonass70460, Those answers are buried in the FAQ.

"How many years will the battery last?

Based on testing, Tesla expects the battery to retain approximately 70% of its initial capacity after seven years or 100,000 miles."
-http://www.teslamotors.com/models/faq

The batteries can be swapped quickly... like in minutes but I did not find where I read that.

Cost to replace them will be based on how many miles you want the charge to go. Those prices are not released yet.

Tesla guarantees for the battery for span of 7 years or 100'000 miles (whatever comes first) to have at least 70% of initial capacity. If you buy a Model S with the 160 miles battery pack, that is 112 miles left. If that is still usable for you, you can go on driving.
It is common expectation for battery prices to drop significantly within the next seven years.

If availability or price of a replacement battery is a concern to you, you can buy a replacement warranty on delivery of the car. Tesla guarantees the availability of a battery matching your car after that 7 years.

Replacing the Model S battery is a routine job for any Tesla Store. They even plan to lease 300 mile packs to you if you go on a road trip for the weekend! All mechanical, electric and coolant connections are designed for easy replacement.

Thanks a lot guys, that quiets all of my concerns, now all I have to do is wait, which can be the hardest part....

I expect the 300 mile pack will be degraded mainly by time rather than milage as it will cycle half as frequently as the 160 pack. The 160 pack will likely degrade mainly by milage. Of course YMMV.

Unfortunately we can't tell from the panasonic PDF how many years new untried batteries will last. They seem to imply at least 300 or 500 cycles for all the types listed.

I hope that Tesla makes a lot of cars with the Model S battery pack so that we are able to use a new chemistry one day. These cars may last a very long time.

The idea is not new and Elon mentions it in his cleantech award speech: use microelectronic fabrication technique to make a supercapacitor from some semiconductor material with a HUUUGE internal surface. Right now, I understand that energy density per volume in supercaps is magnitudes lower than in Li-ion battery cell. If that is overcome, supercaps will give us very high charge/discharge currents and near to endless number of cycles. Voltage will vary with state of charge, of course: An empty capacitor has zero Volt.

So whoever comes up with a solution to the energy density problem will make a fortune here.

Volker, Elon left the field because the problem has no currently identified theoretical solution. It is more than just engineering. Building the Tesla cars is "just" engineering. Of course both involve huge amounts of capital.

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

timo, In reference to Volkerp last post. Waiting on you here,bud.

If I may be allowed to get "off topic" for just a nano second, heard on radio today that a small company in Finland came up with the "Angry Birds" game, most hghly downloaded game ever, over one hundred million downloads. Game is a physics bsed game. Now there are fixing to really take off with some super big company. The Finnish company was "Robeo" or something that sounded like that. Are you familiar with this company? I thought of you when I heard this on radio.

What are you doing up at this time of night? Gotobedarreddy.

Just for you: http://tinyurl.com/Zombie-Brains-Memo

Motor Trend on the latest batteries at TM:

At its current limit, the 300-mile battery will have 7000 cells; the 160- and 230-mile units will contain fewer.
http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2011/1103_why_the_telsa_mod...

Spam, cross posted to multiple threads.

Flagged as such (ifilm77.com post).

As one analysts recently remarked about batteries "It's the cost, stupid." Right now we have batteries that are capable of competing in terms of range and recharge times. With a 300 mile driving range, the ONLY occasion when anyone cares about recharge rate is while traveling. And a 45 minute recharge time is perfectly satisfactory for those occasions. Energy densities are
good enough, but number of recharges needs to be better so that the batteries will last at least as long as the car, hopefully longer. The Planar solid state batteries are promising in terms of
both density and recharge rate and initial price, but their target for 2016 is only 2000 recharges. On the other hand, DBM Energy has
a working battery right now, tested for a good while and ready to manufacture and cheaper than li ions, although how much cheaper is
hard to say. Some say ridiculously cheaper : $1400 for a 400 mile range battery pack. I have a hard time believing that figure.
At any rate, these batteries can be recharged in 6 minutes and
have a charge lifespan exceeding 5000 charges, as verified by a
test lab contracted by the German govt. That's over 30 years of normal use. The biggest mistake the company made so far was to not realize that the environmentalists field is full of loonies who suspect conspiracies everywhere. At this point that's mostly water under the bridge. The company will be producing what sound like
hundreds of 400 mile ranged battery packs this year and has
solicitated contact from any automaker interested. From the data shown, EVERY automaker should be very, very interested. So far, these batteries, developed by a young German named Hanemann, and tested thru the auspices of the German govt material laboratory,
has the best pedigree to be the battery that will utterly destroy the gas powered vehicle. I assume Musk has investigated same.

DBM did a publicity stunt driving a converted Audi A2 with the DBM energy nonstop from Munich to Berlin (600km=373 miles) featuring a 98,8kWh DBM battery called "colibri". The stunt was disputed since it was not verified by independent party. Then, rumors had it that the experimental car was destroyed in a fire, unclear with out without the miraculous battery.
(all links to articles in German, sorry)
Now, independent verification of DBMs battery technology has been done.
I didn't pay much attention to the affair since experimental prototypes do not solve the problem, only mass production of EVs. And I have no source giving production schedule/volume, availability, or pricing of the DBM battery. Ramon, can you provide a link?

This battery thing is seemingly going to be worked out fairly quickly. 45 minute pit stops are no inconvience at all on long trip. IN fact they are a good thing as I do them anyway just to avoid fatigue.

Really hope Tesla checks into this DBM Energy Company in Germany and their battery. Surely Tesla knows all about this. Ithink I asked what country and company looked like the front runners in battery development, perhaps I know now. Lets hope so and if that price is right, game over.

Any more word on whether the DBM Energy battery information is legit or not?

@Timo, What say you on the DBM Energy battery? Is this the one?

I have no idea.

I'm very skeptical. There were too many unanswered questions regarding their tests, and I'm highly suspicious of the fire wrecking their only prototype battery.

We'll see, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Yeah did sound a little too good to be true didn't it. But this all puts the focus purely on the "battery tech" to be the game changer for now doesn't it.

This along with the folks producing their own charges from solar panels at their homes. And of course the new advances everybody is watching in energy production via fusion etc.

Believe we will eventually get there though.

Someone will get there. It is a matter of time and place.

People who report secretive tests and have things destroyed in "fires" are unlikely to be reliable. If the Audi trip was real why not have a second or an independent observer. Cost cannot be forcast well from early prototypes.

This is why Elon is agnostic as regards to battery technology. There is too much flux for Tesla to add deep investment in the batteries. Hence the use of "commodity" sized batteries which almost any successful technology will enter.

Ther are a few options not consiterd for battery life extention on long trips.
-someone sugested back in august a wind turbine and was shot down becuse of the wind resistance it would cause. That is not the way wind resistance works. (unless when you piture a wind turbine on a car you picture a fan stickin out of the roof) if you intergrate intake holes in to the existing frame the wind resistance stays the same.
-solar panles have come a long way and have become strong enough to be used as the exterior panles. (plus i think it would look awsome).
-a towable trailer battery for cross country trips.
-not sure if they already use regenerative brakeing or not.

by using a few of these they could probable achive 5-600 miles,
however the cost would be much higher(maybe in years to come this will become cost effective. i think the answer to the range is much more likely, fast recharge stations, or battery swap stations.

Air resistance is air resistance. Turbine causes drag, you can't overcome that, and that drag would be more than it can generate electricity.

Consider this: where does the kinetic energy that wind has originate that you are converting to electricity? That's right, from car battery. If you could increase range with it you would had just invented a perpetual motion machine. Reality just doesn't work like that.

Solar is weak. Very weak. Even if you cover your entire car with best solar panels there are you might get something like 2.5-2.0kW max at midday, and moving car at 60mph takes around 18kW (for Model S). That would also more than double the car cost. If you go for cheap thin film solar you'd get max 1kW, and that is in perfect sunny day at midday.

Trailer would work, but is impractical. You would need to pay for that battery and if you do then it would be just as easy to put it in car in first place. If you could rent that trailer, then things could be different.

Every EV has regenerative braking. It would just be stupid not to have it, when it is so easy to implement.

Well wind turbine thing is out there again. Sounds great if "toxic threapy" has it right so where do we go to get the true answer. Hope no one is shooting their mouth off without really knowing the verifiable truth about wind tunnels.

Timo, Do you think that battery tech has the potential to eventually become something like the DBM Energy battery or do you think there is just so much that can be done in the area of the battery capabilities and if so are we about to the far edge of that capability?

Searcher & Toxic Therapy.

Timo is correct. There is no knowledgeable different second opinion.

If you have a turbine with 100% conversion efficiency, the very best that could be done is break even. Any real world result would be a decrease in mileage of the vehicle. The only realistic way you're going to get improved results is by going slower. Look at the graphs on

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/roadster-efficiency-and-range

P.S.

I really wish we had an edit function.

Of course, reducing the drag coefficient will improve efficiency(and a wind turbine, no matter how it's designed and arranged will increase the drag coefficient), but the Model S already has one of the lowest drag coefficients on cars.

Well David70 who do I beleive you or Toxic Therapy. Which one has the actual testing verifications and not some website reference which often means zip.


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