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Charge faster than you could fill a gas tank?

Latest Tweet by Elon Musk. What does he mean?

‏@elonmusk
"There is a way for the Tesla Model S to be recharged throughout the country faster than you could fill a gas tank."

Easy enough to find out. Roll a couple of free weights from your universal gym into the sub-frunk and take it for a spin :)

I think there is another very important advantage of a swappable secondary Al-Air battery that has not been considered: not only would an Al-Air secondary battery extend range, but it also would address the issue of battery life and the risk of having to replace an expensive battery pack in 8-10 years. If the Al-Air is used frequently, this would directly extend the life of the main pack by reducing the number of charges. If the Al-Air battery is not used frequently (or not at all), then even with a 50% or more decline in capacity of the primary Li pack, the individual could start using the Al-Air and essentially greatly extend the life of the car. A 20 or more year lifespan of the car could easily be achieved. Better than ICE again!!!!!!!!!!!

Thus, a secondary Al-Air battery solves the two major problems for widespread adoption: range and life-span of the battery!!!!!

I first proposed a secondary swappable graphene supercap for the frunk (comment above), and then changed this to a secondary Al-Air (in another thread) given others comments. With continued discussion and comments by others, it is clear that this approach is a slam dunk and will kill the ICE if done.

I am now so convinced of this approach, if Tesla does not do it I may just have to do my own start-up and do this (Ha Ha Ha).

Mdemetri - I think Seal Team 6 is already on it.

All of those patent filings did not self-assemble. Serious intellectual energy has been put toward this.

Mark K

I sure hope so, I want Tesla to do this badly

However, it is important to note that patents have limited power; all they do is give one the right to sue. Just look at the Samsung - Apple squabbles for an example. If Tesla does not move forward with this approach, their patents will not and should not halt this approach.

But I am with you, I think Tesla is all over this and will do it. I can't wait; I want this to happen ASAP.

PorfirioR,

The $1 per kilogram price as I recall is for the aluminum plates in the battery. It is NOT the cost of refurbishing the battery after use. The battery needs to be flushed of spent aluminum and electrolyte. Potassium or Sodium Hydroxide are caustic (I have had a bad chemical burn from working with it in the lab). The chemicals need to be separated and reclaimed.

Everyone seems to be in the wild enthusiasm phase about this, and few folks are considering the cost.

What's the cost of building a pack? Having enough on the shelf so when drivers arrive there is one ready? (pack float might be 7 to 1. 7 packs for every 1 in use). Now building manned or automated service centers on all routes. How much does that cost? Aluminum batters do better in storage dry where the electrolyte is added at time of use. How does that get done and what does it cost to staff that? How are used packs taken to be recycled? Does tesla need to create regional aluminum reprocessing centers?

People talk about energy density, but has anyone run the numbers on this? Better Place just went bankrupt with a MUCH simpler process in a much smaller geographical area. You expect Tesla to do that?

Finally, if the pack fits in the frunk, it needs to fit snugly. It can't move around at all for safety and ride stability. Will it fit the Model X? Some of those will have front wheel drive and may sacrifice frunk space. It probably won't fit in the smaller Gen III or new Roadster. What gets built MUST be a long term solution for decades of new Tesla models.

Hate to rain on the parade but it's not going to roll out with today's technology. Not.

I hate to rain on the par

jbunn@hotmail.com

Hmmm, I think similar negative arguements on feasability/cost were made about Tesla sucessfully bringing a long range EV to the market. Many 'shorts' betted against Tesla and have payed dearly for this.

While I agree there are obstacles, and cost is the largest one, as I said in an earlier post, if anyone can do it, Elon can. Elon has shown an exceptional ability to take existing tehcnology and bring down cost to make it viable. No reason why he could not do this again; and if not I am convinced that someone else will. The concept is just that good.

I agree that we all got a good laugh at John Peterson's expense. I've been a Tesla fan for over 4 years now, and have owned my Tesla for 4 months.

However... Because there were foolish arguments about electric vehicles that Tesla proved very wrong does not mean that Tesla can bend the laws of physics and economics.

Again, I'd say run the numbers on the issues I present, the vast geography required, and consider the space requirements in the car as they relate to forward compatibility.

I have a great deal of respect for Tesla and am heavily invested. I believe they are not foolish enough to go down this road.

Jbunn - Well, if you think it's too much of a stretch for this team, do you think it more likely they will swap the main pack? How's that going to work from a capital equipment cost perspective?

Remember they have officially declared they'll have swap facilities soon, so something's going to happen. I don't see them waving off tens of millions in near term ZEV credits.

Not simple to introduce new packs, for sure. The devil's always in the details, but I think they've got a shot at getting something going next year. It may have iteration one limitations, but that's how anything gets started.

We don't know what they've already achieved quietly, and their patents don't suggest they've been idle.

They look for significant advances that are exciting changes for customers. This would qualify.

To bet against it, is to bet for swapping the main pack. Maybe that's all they can do, but that doesn't seem as exciting.

I think they've got a chance to really break loose here. We'll know some weeks from now.

First of all, a battery swap does not constitute a "recharge", as Elon puts it. Also, the notion of swapping cars is lunatic, just think about it. A family roadtrip with a stopover to repack your stuff into a used car? Will Tesla have personell scattered around major roads to keep the cars clean and fully charged? I will sop here. Though I really enjoy reading these highly speculative forum threads, I can't wait to get the long awaited answer. Elon is a marketing genius, I'll give him that. :-)

In Europe, Renault introduce the swap concept from the begining. The EV line of cars will can swap the battery and this is presented before the first production car is made. That is not a big deal.
For example, Renault sell you the electric car and you pay for 3 years a month rent to lease the battery and after 3 years the battery is not yours, just you use it and has warranty for a long period. The battery is never yours because after lifetime expire is still precious for recycling.

NatGeo "MegaFactories" episode on Tesla.
4:25 second battery installation.

Just saying...

machmike

Please clarify; I looked at 4:25 of the video and did not see/hear anything about a second battery installation. Is it somewhere else in the video?

mdemetri;
you misunderstand; he's saying somewhere in the vid a 4.25 installation is mentioned. IIRC, the battery is mentioned somewhere after the 40:00 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VUgDcA1pZAM

41:40 No mention of time for the battery; 4 min 40 sec for the drive train.

A guy named Randy Carlson wrote about finding out that Tesla had upped their order for frunk liners to 650 a week, which was more than Tesla was producing in cars/week. It led him to conclude a second motor would be added to the front of the car. I guess it is possible, but I think the second battery is far more likely. Far less complicated and far more valuable to Model S owners.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1333951-the-3-tesla-secrets

If you look into the frunk and notice the location of the box at the back, it is directly over the front axle and it's protected by the entire crumple zone structure of the front end. The location actually completes the weight balance distribution of the car to near 50/50. Therefore handling wil not be adversely affected, likely even to be somewhat improved. Also take a look at the back of this odd square structure and you will notice that it is already outfitted with what appears to be a slot for connection. If a swappable battery pack of this size had already been designed into the car, and will extend the range to 500 miles or more, this will effectively end any argument for ICE. All evidence suggests that this was built in to the Model S and Elon's plan. Look out, cause the last announcement of the 5 part "trilogy" will be a major milestone in the electric car revolution that Elon has envisioned. Seismic shift is about to take place.

Are these batteries commercially available? Has anyone seen them in operation outside of an experimental prototype? Do you think it likely that TM would place a battery in a production vehicle if that battery had not been thoroughly tested and used, as lithium ion batteries have been.

DouglasR - Given Tesla's patent filings, the battery may well be a custom design of TM. That would give them the optimum control to match it to their needs for recharging the main pack, and cost-effective recycling.

The provisions in that back plate in the frunk-well are consistent with the hypotheses of the add-on quick-swap pack.

This development is more important than most folks understand right now.

Car swap seems far fetched and undesirable, I would think, to most folks, for many reasons. For instance, what if you unpacked all your luggage, tools, electronic devices, kids, diaper pail, tissues, glasses, and driving slippers from your beautiful red, white, blue, black, green, or brown Model S and they expected you to pack it all into a brown, green, black, blue, white, or red one to get you the rest of the way to grandma's house? Would you want to be seen in a Tesla in THAT color? Ugh! And are you going to leave behind the cool lighting mods you did to the frunk and footwells and the Masonite center console you built? And what about the sanitary issues? What's that smell? Did the last family that had this car wash their hands after hitting the rest stop? Was a dog scooting its rear end around the car's rear end? How clean is clean enough? OK, if you can get past all those hurdles, wouldn't you LOVE to turn off the traction control on a Tesla, see how much rubber it can burn, see how fast it really goes, measure how high the curbs it can clear at each suspension setting and practice power slides through the apex of freeway off ramps? Would you do these things in YOUR Tesla? (Sadly, I fear they've all been done). I wouldn't do any of these things to mine and I bet most of you wouldn't do them to yours, but a loaner? Even Tesla owners sin, albeit occasionally. I'm just getting started, but I'll stop before my wall of text becomes its own page. Any nays?

@Lush1

Carswap is awful. But I could see Tesla having a fleet of service loaners that could serve dual purpose from time to time.

A more detailed map will go out tomorrow, Musk says. “You’ll be able to drive all the way from LA to New York using the Supercharger network,” he says. I believe the target for that announcement was by next year.

“I guess I might as well let the cat out of the bag,” Musk says to cheers. He starts talking about the SuperChargers, Tesla’s recharging infrastructure for making it possible to take a Tesla on road trip. “We had to make something that was really quick to charge. What we were going to announce tomorrow is that there is going to be a dramatic expansion of the Supercharger network. By next month we’ll triple the coverage area.”


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