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German Demand

Anybody here got an idea about German demand for the Model S, X? It has a large population of 80M with relatively hi density, per capita income comparable to the US and hi gasoline prices. What kind of EV incentives do they have? How many superchargers will be needed to cover the country? What about their car culture? Are they committed to local brands mostly?

Another country with hi population density and income is Japan... 140M.

Japan, as well as Great Britain and Hong Kong, is significant market but it needs to wait for the right hand drive model to come out first. Tesla has only scratched the surface at this moment.

Germany should be strong. Germans are strongly into renewables. They are indeed loyal to their brands but not as much as Chinese are loyal to German brands, which saved their car industry during the collapse.

They have lots of charging stations (Mennekes) and like savings :)

German media has been very positive towards Tesla..

All in all, te S should do well in Germany.

Tesla will do well in Germany. The only potential real drawback is that when you get on the autobahn, you set your cruise control on 100-110mph and then watch out for BMW's and Mercs coming up behind you at 150, flashing their headlights to get you to pull over.

100 mph for any distance will deplete the S battery real bad, real fast. But for short range driving the S should be very popular, and the X moreso. In countries with speed limits (France, Austria) and particular with short driving distances and hills (Switzerland) I would imagine it to be more popular. Japan should be more popular still.

I wasn't aware Germany has zero incentives, subsidies, etc.. On top of that, Merkel lobbied (in a very nasty way some EU parliament or commission members said) and now the emission standards for 2020 were relaxed considerably, to
accommodate German car makers. Very lame actually.

And with subsidies it is also kind of lame, considering that Chinese subsidies
enabled the survival of those makers during the worst of the crisis..

On the plus side, Germany did move mountains in promoting solar and wind energy acceptance and installed capacity.

So minus points for supporting the slack of Mercedes, BMW, Audi.

@Car t man

Mercedes is one of Teslas partners. That is why we have some Mercedes hardware in our cars. (i.e. turn signal stalk.) I've heard rumors of Mercedes adopting the Tesla drivetrain for some of their upcoming products. It could be just for US compliance purposes, or not. That is yet to be seen.

Mercedes "E-Class" ... Model S plattform. Would make a lot of sense!

I have always felt that an aluminum version of a Mercedes Coupe on a Tesla skateboard would be a winner and sell all over the world. The Dealers are in place and can be the intial charge points.

ISTR that the Smart 2-seater city car was conceived by Mercedes together with the A-class, originally as an electric car with batteries in the floor pan (sounds familiar?) but they couldn't solve the battery issue and instead put in an ICE. That's probably why the A-class had such a phenomenal fail in a Swedish moose avoidance test and fell over: it was constructed to have a much lower center of gravity; without that it simply toppled.

Back to the drawing board with e-Class B? (Better try one more time though.)

Great post, but the following line just made me smile:
"Sweedish moose avoidance test"

I believe that, at least in the US market, Mercedes and BMW are simply looking at EVs as compliance vehicles. The recent trend is to add a few luxury and style features to take advantage of the higher-end status of EVs after Tesla's success. So they get compliance, more revenue out of the market, and get to share some of the "cred" that Tesla has built.

This attitude will likely change as Tesla expands in the European market.

Whity Whiteman wrote:
"Mercedes "E-Class" ... Model S plattform. Would make a lot of sense!"

You are right but it will be the B-Class... production will be starting next year for the US market first
Mercedes outside Tesla inside

@PorfirioR, Thanks. MB was not amoosed, let me tell'ya. First tried to blame the tires but later adjusted the chassis too in order to run right-side-up. (The swerve test has been standard for generations.) Not many brands have failed, so far only MB and Iron-curtain tail-engine Skoda with pre-war rear suspension, as I can recall.

MB-A was long known as "Welt-Klasse" after a Swedish word for flipover. Another word is "vurpa". Hopefully more useless info. ;-)

Still surprising that MB abandoned such a basically sound idea, especially after their business partner showed the way. Why don't they just license the battery tech too, along with the rest of the driveline?

They who live get to see, I guess.

I drove the original A-class for about 3 months. Loved the concept. Compact outside and roomy inside. Flexible interior. Couple that to MB luxury, attention to detail and build quality and you have an awesome car. Pity that the latest incarnation of the A-class abandoned the original idea and went mainstream. Now it's a 13 in a dozen car.

@ PorfirioR

It is for real:

The ADAC (German automobile club where you basically as a German are a member from birth) has in the last member magazine "Motorwelt" rated the Model S in a very acceptable way and calls it the best car in it's class (upper middle class) ahead of the BMW 520d efficient dynamics, although it can't rival German cars when it comes to assistance systems for safety and comfort where Tesla is still miles behind.

I can tell you my demand ;-) is very high and I hope Tesla stays true to delivering my Model S to Frankfurt in December.

The demand for the Tesla Model S in Germany will start to rise in 2014, when people will see the Tesla Model S on the German roads. And then it will also get more and more media attention.

I have been driving my Model S here in Germany for two weeks and 1000 kms now. It is made for the Autobahn! Porsche killer is all i can say! I drive short distances only (Long distances in a car I find boring, I take the train or plane for those...) but those I drive fast if I can! It is pure exhilarating joy to experience the acceleration and the amazingly steady handling at high speeds. I just which they would take the top speed limiter out. I am sure that the car would be capable of the usual 155 mph that BMW,s Porsches and the likes are usually limited to. Who cares if that takes a lot of battery capacity? It's my choice, isn't it?

As far as tax incentives: well, I don't have to pay the annual car tax that internal combustion engine car owners are so used to paying. And insurance is cheap because two insurance companies are battling for becoming the preferred Model S insurer...


About that "internal combustion engine tax", that's interesting.

Would you please tell us how many Euros German owners of a BMW 5-serie or a Mercedes Benz E-Class have to pay for that "internal combustion engine tax"?

And how do they calculate the amount that German people have to pay? Is that based on the weight of the car, or is it based on the CO2 emission of the car? Or is there another thing that they base it on?

Thanks for sharing that info with us.


Whew, thread title made me nervous. I thought maybe they wanted Poland again ;)

hfcolvin +1

Mercedes is unfortunately in compliance cars currently. They obtained AC drive train technology and drives directly from the creator of first AC inverters but ended up scrapping the project. They wouldn't really need Tesla for this but since they have some stock and since they probably just want to tip their
toes in, to kind of feel the market, they will initially use their drives.

It is important to be able to avoid mooses. Without inversion.


as for the tax: I have just paid for my wife's X1. It was €166,- p.a. That's about US$ 225.- It is based on engine size (cc) and CO2 emission.

Another interesting tax fact:

If you have a company car in Germany, 1% of the list price is added to your monthly taxable salary as "private use". Now with EVs you can take off a certain amount per kWh capacity, up to 10.000 Euro. So with the large battery of the model S that's 10.000 Euro. So if you paid 90.000 you'll only have pay taxes of 1% of 80.000, thats 800,- per month instead of 900. Depending on you tax bracket you save up to about 40 Euro each month. Small incentive, but better than nothing!

According to an article in Cosmoosepolitan magazine:

The best way to avoid a moose is to not make eye contact, do not engage in conversation, and pretend you just got an important call on your cell phone and walk outside. Hopefully, the moose will get the hint.

- Never admit that you hate them. No matter how much they annoy you.
- Try to organize your schedule so you don't have to see them very often.
- Don't give them any reason to think that you want to be their friend.
- Hang out with moose that they don't know so that they feel awkward trying to join in the conversation.

Hopefully this will help Mercedes get over their moose avoidance problems.

If all else fails, just talk to the moose and hug it out man...

In all seriousness, I think Tesla will do just fine in Germany. Car people cannot ignore Tesla for too long.

This part is a bit of a letdown on the German part..

Counting that BMW also falsified (arguably legally) their CO2 anual
decreases across their car range, they really don't seem like the
good guys right about now...

Car t,
No, that can not be correct. You're saying there is another country (besides the US) where people or small groups use cash to buy influence in the political arena? I thought the US had a corner on that market. If not, I at least think we do it better than any other country at over $1B for Obama and just under $1B for Romney so they could get a four year contract that pays less than $500,000 a year. At least we all have some sun shine on the process so we can see it happen; I just can not understand why it is acceptable.

Off my milk create and back to your regularly scheduled discussion. Sorry for the right (or left) turn.

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