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I'm not so sure....

Okay, we have a deposit on the performance model S. After a few weeks - I'm not so sure.

With all the options - we are looking at $95K. My daily driver is a 10 BMW M5 - so I thought finally an American car worth looking at. But at $95K, they are missing the mark. Sure the biggest difference is gas or no gas. However, I can buy a brand new fully loaded M5 for the same amount of cash. I'm sure some of you will point out that the Telsa performance S model beat my M5 in a 1/4 mile. But, most americans think in straight lines. I am more design/performance oriented type of driver, thats why I have been driving a "driver's car" since 1984 - BMWs. Also my wife and I own several Porsches - so we thought that the Tesla might be a cool alternative. But..........for the same amount of money it buys the following additional items in a new M5
1) Heads up display
2) Infrared sensors (night vision)
3) Voice control
4) Heated rear seats
5) Vented front and rear seats
6) More leather choices for the interior
7) Black alcantara head liner
8) Full leather (and I mean full leather)
9) Full climate controls for the rear
10) Electric folding mirrors
11) Lighted vanity sunvisors (really, not in the Tesla?)
12) Radar controlled Cruise control
13) Front and rear parking sensors
14) Auto dimming mirrors
15) Directional front headlights (when you turn the lights move)
16) Side bolsters that inflate when in M mode to keep you in the seats when in hard turns (or manually selected)
17) Full high end audio (no comparison to the Tesla)
18) Wide tires (this is a major issue for me - especially in a sport sedan)
19) Electric sun shades for the rear window
20) Another BMW to drive when the car needs anykind of maintainance
and there are a few more

So - I'm not so sure anymore

Thoughts?

I figured I couldn't afford the chiropractic if I drove the roadster. All things considered the MS Performance was the best option I had (being a tree hugger) for spending much more than I ever thought I would pay for a vehicle. Your money. Your values. Whatever your choice be happy with it.

Heh. Just a thought/comparison the next time you get an impulse to hug a tree: paper is made from trees grown for harvest, so by the same token, "Recycle your breadcrumbs. Save the wheat!"

CMadsen - Let's try a metaphor - do you want to go on the Apollo mission or are you going to defer because you don't like the color of the snaps on the spacesuit?

Here's the $ part for you - if you can afford to have 3 Porsches and an M series, I think, and I may be out an a limb here, you can afford to buy the car.

Or, if in a reflexive universe you owned a Model S and were considering an M series, would your list of M Series deficiencies look like this:

1. Smelly gas engine - what are those pipes for in back?
2. Expensive gas fuel (not fuel cost, fueling time)
3. Dirty exhaust
4. Lots of wires and hoses under the hood
5. Ten thousand buttons - why not all integrated into a screen?
6. Too many flimsy cupholders, what is this, a cheap bar?
7. Not much trunk space
8. No frunk storage!!!
9. Messy interior, all the clutter
10. What's that bump in the rear seat between the passengers?
11. These door handles sure look lumpy
12. Where's the app to turn on the AC when I park on a hot day?
13. How does the software update? Oh, at the dealer.
14. A better Cd would have meant a smaller engine, right?
15. Do people do BMW delivery parties?
16. the
17. list
18. could
19. keep
20. going

Thanks for asking the question, we've had fun answering.

Get the car and smile!

I think point number 20 says it all'another BMW to drive when it needs maintenance.' based on my experience th my prior BMW 530i that's a good call because it was in the shop a LOT. Least reliable car I ever owned.

Or, you could get a Model S- which blows the doors off anything German in acceleration' handling, ride, quiet, cool factor, and never having to stop at the gas station on a rainy day- and when it needs service the Tesla Ranger comes to YOU.

Really no contest.

Ps real German cars in Germany don't have cup holders because it is illegal to eat or drink while driving over there.

Having 100% torque available instantly plus powerful regeneration will change the way you drive. ICE cars will never feel the same again. Mine are sitting in the driveway...

If you want to be seen and heard, then get a Fisker or the M5. If you enjoy the subtlety the S enables, then go for it.

First... As a porsche, Audi, and BMW driver, I personally think the Tesla handles far better. You need to test drive the performance version and rebute your thread which I believe will be easy to do.

If you are a performance driver, here are some points to consider.

- Electric car excelleration doest require build up, it is straight line torque.
- 30-70 is quicker than the 911, M5 etc. ....must experience
- This car is balanced almost equally from and rear vs most front engine cars where the weight is unequally distributed. From a handling perspective, this is paramount.

From a luxury perspective.
- The hand stitched interior with Porsche, among all of the other extras, you can spend easly

First... As a porsche, Audi, and BMW driver, I personally think the Tesla handles far better. You need to test drive the performance version and rebute your thread which I believe will be easy to do.

If you are a performance driver, here are some points to consider.

- Electric car excelleration doest require build up, it is straight line torque.
- 30-70 is quicker than the 911, M5 etc. ....must experience
- This car is balanced almost equally from and rear vs most front engine cars where the weight is unequally distributed. From a handling perspective, this is paramount.

From a luxury perspective.
- The hand stitched interior with Porsche, among all of the other extras, you can spend 40% plus additional on extras where Tesla is bundling together.
- The software and innovation alone with the touch screen is better than my Ipad. The latest software upgrade allows you to drag and drop applications from the application menu to parts of the screen in a segmented view.

Other cool facts...
-They can removed the shell and swap batteries in 10-15 min
-Oil change service from Porsche is almost 1k every 10k miles and you leave your car for the day. Its only $600 per year and its super quick to service.
- Your car doesn't look like a 3 series BMW :)

Cmadsen,

You talk in terms of what you own, and what you "need". So get what you want. Must we talk you into it as well?

Cmadsen. The M5 is a magnificent performance sedan one of the best … using the finest, 20th Century, technology. The “S” doesn’t have all the features the M5 has, but it does have all the important ones. I thought you would feel most deprived by not having all those buttons on the dash – you can add lack of dash buttons to your laundry list.

Regarding Porsches, it has taken them six decades to evolve. I recall my beloved 356 coupe and cabriolet. State of the art heating… pull up on a lever in front of the shifter, slide the sills along the floor to open and wait for the trickle. The defroster was a masterpiece … thank goodness for the ‘defroster’ towel. No car is perfect to everyone, but it took BMW and Porsche over 50 years to refine and develop their masterpieces. Tesla is approaching their ... 6th month!

Now if you will excuse me, I need to drink my Kool - Aid.

Perhaps M5-lovers could get a special interior wrap with a few dozen fake buttons on it, to make the MS feel more homey.
;)

In this kind of discussion, instead of going into the details like all of the different features and the prices, and how that compares to other cars in the same price range and blah blah blah -- I think there's two sides that break it down simlpy.

A)
This is your chance to get a new kind of car with a new kind of technology, and (barring a completely surprise entry by one of the established automakers) it will be years before more similar cars are produced either by Tesla or a competiter. If that excites the geek in you, then you might want to go through with getting the Model S.

B)
With all of that said, surely this is a 1.0 car. I'm willing to bet that ten years from now, maybe even five, there are going to be cars like the Model S, but they'll be even better. They'll have more features, better capabilities, there will be more variety to choose from, and they'll cost less. If you're not that excited, if you feel you can wait, then I think it is a sound choice to do so. I don't feel bad about suggesting that because Tesla's got plenty of buyers lined up already, and I'm sure more will come once people really start seeing these in the streets.

After test-driving a Audi A8, BMW M5, and the Tesla P85... No comparison, the MS blows them all away IMHO in speed, comfort, technology, ride, space, handling, etc.

Plus, I get to feel good knowing I am no longer helping to contribute to oil wars, murder, extortion, and pollution!

Oh, yea... HOV lane access.

olan;
+1

But it will be very interesting to see which manufacturer even approaches the MS in capabilities first. Nominations?

Well, if a manufacturer has been working in secret, it could be anyone, but it would be quite a surprise. Usually there's some kinds of heads up with auto show concepts and the like.

What I think is more realistic actually is Tesla working with another manufacturer to build a real electric car (not that Rav-4 crap), and I'm think this will be several years away, like after Bluestar. I could foresee Tesla wanting to keep "Tesla" as a more premium brand, but build cars (or just platforms) for other manufacturers.

That's besides the point of what I was trying to get at though. My main point was that in several years, there will be better technology, more choice, and a wider price range of options.

If you're not that enthusiastic about it, it would be prudent to wait. I'm not saying the Model S is not a worthy car, far from it, obviously, as I am enthusiastically waiting to get mine.

I give the same sort of advice to friends and family when it comes to the latest game systems and some other kinds of tech devices. Usually,

olanmills -- "...My main point was that in several years, there will be better technology, more choice, and a wider price range of options..."

That's trite and is a disservice to the revolutionary achievement of the Model S by Tesla Motors.

vouteb, I'm in the non-performance, non-sig, but tech package camp. Jumping the queue isn't an issue b/c I'm P#3 (Europe) anyway. For the money I'll save I'll buy some sweets for the kids... :-) Does this help?

petero +1 :-D

Volker
A bit but not exactly

I need people s opinion on: Performance:
Sig
Or
Non Sig with Tech

I thought so. Sorry I can't help you with that.

Well... If you strictly look at the tangibles, the non-sig w/ tech gives you better value for money than the sig. The sig may offer additional intangible values like earlier delivery, bragging rights, and potential collector's value. I'm afraid, you're on your own making that call.

But we're getting seriously OT now.

OK I have to chime in, I have to disagree whole-heartedly with CMADSEN, why you may ask?
1. I have test driven both the last generation and new generation M5 and as a previous BMW owner, these cars have gone soft! Unfortunately, they don't feel like the raw power and "Ultimate Driving Machine" that these M's were built to be. They just feel SOFT and now due to profit-motive and publicly owned company have been built to appease the masses. I cannot explain it better; the creature comforts that you list are barely going to be used and don't justify the car. Moving to my next point....
2. Porsches, they have done a lot better job of keeping the raw power, emotion part of the equation, however, the exterior is beautiful, but for 100K plus I want an interior that looks nice and doesn't mimick a 30K sedan-or worse a car's interior with all the circles, wow! I hate the interior styling and I feel the interior looks too cheap to be a daily driver for 100K+...
3. I have driven Maserati's and a Ferrari and neither have got me to even start to think of spending their respective price tags, so I was an uninspired and saddened car enthusiast! Now on to the tesla...
I drove this amazing car and saw the features and other than the dash fit and trim being a little "loose" I though this is a fabulous car; it evoked emotion, was pure driving pleasure and had the cool creature comforts I would use! I immediately put a deposit on a 1000K car! Finally something to get excited about.
Honestly, I have a 2004 S4 V8 engine and now that feels like a dinosaur compared with the tesla. I plan to keep the Audi to collect and modify but feel like it is a drive away from breaking down each time I drive it, so don't know if I will keep it long-term.
Just my 5 cents :)
Jack

Volker

Danke Schön

Not sure about 'collectors value'.....

and wonder what the delay would be if I switch from SIG to non SIG?

?

vouteb, as far as reports from other forum members go, Tesla tries to sneak you into the regular queue at a place close to where you would have been had you been reserving a regular production in the first place. So, you should not be loosing significantly in that regard. But talk to them before you act!

Yep

Leaves me to decide on the colour.
I guess I really need to like the SIG Red to want to pay extra....

Otherwise I like the new Red (but maybe to flashy) and the Dolphin Grey, but that had mixed reviews in other threads(NO need to add them, Volker!)

:)

if the SIG, only had parking sensors and/or auto folding mirrors....

:)

cmadsen, this is a no brainer. All cars discussed here are great, but don't lose any sleep over the decision: (1) the S Perf is not a $95k car, it's a $69k car*; (2) it is the 2013 Car of The Year, period, by performance, across all classes, with all of the items you list taken into account (not the M5/race loser, not the Panamera, not any other car); and [optional] (3) add any green/revolutionary/never going to gas station/free driving for life from Tesla/cool/quiet/quick factoids that float your boat.

* $84.9k US Perf + $3.75k Tech - $20k gas savings over first 100k miles (at my $4.25/gal, EPA M5 17 MPG, EPA S 265mi range, $0.13/kWh, 100kWh per charge). YMMV

Before pushing "Finalize" on my P85, I went through similar concerns.

The Model S costs much more (initially) than comparably featured cars. However, there should be considerable cost savings per year from lower fuel costs, lower maintenance costs, and avoiding some of the annoying annual charges the other manufacturers have (map updates, fee to use the limited built-in "apps").

I compared the Model S with a new Lexus GS 450h, with about the same features, and found that over a 6 year period, the Model S costs about the same as a comparably priced GS.

For an additional $12K more for the GS, I could add the missing luxury features to the GS. For the Model S, for that $12K, I could add the Performance package, with the faster acceleration, improved interior and spoiler.

While the Model S doesn't have many of the luxury features (night vision, blind spot monitor, parking sensors, ...) - it does have the huge advantages of no gas and frequent software updates (for the life of the car).

In the long run, I decided those features were worth much more than the missing luxury features (some of which would be cool to demo, but not of much real value).

@village33;
Please keep the qualification "free long-haul trip driving for life" in mind and in communicating about the MS up front. Based on US driving averages, that will be about a third of total miles but only about 1% of # of trips. For most/almost everyone.

@VB;
please don't join those spreading confusion. When you type "loose", think "goose; not the word I want!" Don't lose your rep for verbal precision! ;)

Brian H, ouch! Thanks.

cmadsen,
Don't know where you are buying from but here in Washington state we also don't get to pay the 10% sales tax on the Model S. So the $84.9K really costs $77k. This translates to $57k over 100k miles when you count the fuel savings.
That is a savings of almost $40k over the BMW M5! And much more vs the Porsche Panamera GTS.
And people are complaining about not having the mostly unnecessary features! We Americans are getting soft!
If it is important to you, most likely Tesla will add these some time in the near future anyway. When they do the lower cost of the battery by then will pay for the added extras. So then will not even be that to complain about.

Even for today, is this really a comparison or is it a wipeout? .... hint ... BMW is not even a consideration for me anymore.

I am banking on Tesla stock to rise enough to buy me one soon.

I've owned M5s for years. BMW lost me when they went with the NA V10. Nice engines for the track but torque works best for me on the street. BMW finished the job with the current TT V8 M5 which is literally larger than my old 740il. It does have loads of torque buy it might as well be a TT V12 S600 for its shear bulk.

More to the point is that the Model S is absolutely nothing like the M5. If the M5 suits your taste then that is just fine. There is nothing wrong with your tastes and the M5 is a fantastic car. The only caveat for me is that I would spend some quality time in a friend's, acquaintance's or forum member's S before making the call. Drive it for thirty or so miles. There is a difference that is simply hard to put into words.

I decided to look at the S after the first week on my new Zero (all electric motorcycle). My normal ride was an S1000RR which is quicker than any of my previously (built) bikes. BMW most have visited with the F1 guys as the fuel metering is simply beyond any other bike I've ridden. The Zero and the BMW sit side by side in the garage and I can push either out every morning on the way to the airport. I am hard pressed to keep the BMW's battery in proper condition.

There is no comparison between the BMW and the Zero's performance. The Zero can not hold a candle to the ICE bike but I prefer the Zero. I new this would be the case for the S as well and thus the deposit. It is my opinion that the "driver's car" element is better served by the S..... Just my opinion.

As for all the gadgets, they are simply fads that will come and go. Why there are all those dif setting on a 458 steering wheel eludes me. Why MB insists on sooo many gadgets in a car that are bound to break over time also eludes me. Points of failure drive failures. The more potential points, the more potential failures. Please keep my Model S simple if you please. Once I have set the gadgets where I want them, I seldom if ever touch them again. Set the car in a good place to start with and drop the adjustability and gadgets. I'll be happy as a clam.


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