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My Neighbor has a Karma

I'm eagerly awaiting the Delivery of my Model S P85 sometime this month. As I was finishing the installation of my solar array I see the very recognizable "smiley face" grill of a Fisker Karma turning down my street. I live in Eunice, a small oil town in SE NM. EVs are not popular here and Romney won this county by 40 points. Still in shock that my Model S will be next door to a Fisker Karma in a town of <5000. Neighbors apparently won it in Las Vegas so they aren't "EV people"... just hope they plug it in!

Did anyone seriously consider the Karma? I almost feel sorry for Fisker since it gets to roundly destroyed by the Model S. I doesn't go as far, even with gas. It's almost half as efficient, even on electric. It's less powerful than a P85, even with two motors. It's also more expensive. Has less room; etc, etc. Elon was dead on when he called it a "mediocre product at a higher price"

@bigez1

I just read your link and it looks like Mr Tajima is looking for a sponsorship from Tesla (at least that was alluded to several times in the article?)

I am not interested in wasting my time with tire kickers. People on this board make it sound so easy to make money off selling a Model S (like it is a brick of gold). The fanaticism is unreal! Bottom line: The Model S is a good sedan for what it is but there is a lot of room for improvement. Every single magazine I have read shows that the Fisker Karma pulls better skidpad numbers than the Model S. This is pretty odd since the Model S is lighter and does not have an ICE motor up front?

Bottom line: The Model S is a good sedan for what it is but there is a lot of room for improvement. The Karma has better creature comforts, handles better, better finish, and has exotic looks (love it or hate it). Even Franz himself said that he wishes he would have had more leeway with the Model S (cd wise) to make it more interesting looking.

S mop

I actually agree with you the Model S has room for improvement. Every car does. It is your overall assessment I disagree with. However, there is no denying your opinion(s) is not widely shared anywhere. And if you tally the reported negatives vs positives for the Model S vs the Fisker, without a doubt the Model S is clearly rated overall superior, period. Perfect no, but when you can only reference slightly better skidpad numbers as the one and only concrete performance advantage, that in itself speaks volumes. Lastly, for the amount of $ spent on the Model S, if I felt as you do I'd definitely at least attempt to sell it and purchase what I truly want versus wasting time criticizing it here..

@smop I don't understand the skidpad argument. The Fisker pulls around 0.87g in all the tests I've seen, while the model S pulls anywhere from 0.86g to 0.89g depending on who's doing the testing.
I wouldn't call .01g a significant difference (and that's taking the worst model S skidpad number).

@bigez1

I have 600k worth of Tesla automobiles selling my 120k Model S is pretty far down on the TODO list. The whole purpose of a message board is to discuss, that is exactly what I am doing here. From what I gather you are not an EV owner yet? It is easy to look at the pros and cons on paper and write about them here. I have been driving EV's everyday for the past 2+ years. I know exactly what the Model S is and is not. It is difficult for me to explain this to you at this point (since you are not an EV/Tesla owner?). It would be my pleasure to debate the merits of the Model S vs Karma once you actually receive your Model S and have been able to spend some time with it. This in my opinion would make a better conversation than these on paper "wins" that you point to.

chris

On page 3 I referenced this Road & Track link:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDEQ...

It shows the Karma as .91g on the skidpad. What I am sort of confused about is the fact that for the past 3 years we have heard Tesla talk about how the handling is superior due to the COG being located a few inches from the ground. How is it that the Karma (weighs 800lbs more than the Model S) handles better or even (comparably) to the Model S? The Karma has an ICE motor and EV Motor yet it has pulled higher Skidpad numbers than the Model S has ever pulled?

Smop

America's quickest sedan. Not America's quickest electric sedan. If you can show me a video with the Karma with a similar evaluation, please leave a link.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AOdsTuaJEfc

@tranhv68

Quickest=Best? Quickest=Better? Quickest=Quickest

We are talking about the whole body of work here. I thought me stating this twice in one of my previous responses would drive home the point about my feelings of the Model S.

Bottom line: The Model S is a good sedan for what it is but there is a lot of room for improvement.

So there is no non-sequitur confusion.

1. Powertrain on the Model S is awesome (- some odd noises)! I have stated several times that it seems as if Tesla spent all of their budget on the powertrain and not enough on the other parts of the car (i.e. interior). No one is debating the fact that the Model S is a quick car. What I am simply and openly stating is that there is a lot of room for improvement. It seems like the major consensus on this board is that the Model S is perfect in every way. As an owner I do not feel that is true. Lets compare apples to apples, not interior vs powertrain etc that really is quite ridiculous? The Fisker does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds the Model S in low 4's? On a road trip its cool to be able to accelerate quickly to 60 but I spend most of my time driving constant highway speeds. The quality of the interior and the surfaces that come in contact with my body are important; especially at this price point.

Little OT but I find it hilarious that many on this board are forsaking my opinion because it goes against the grain.

Hhmm SMOP - a $10K delta vs. a lack of sub-standard luxury features and piss poor handling. Bad choice for you for a few $'s I guess. My trade-offs exceeded all expectations. Suggest that leaves me as a lucky one...

jjaeger

What car did you come from out of curiosity? The handling is not "piss poor" (in my opinion) it is just not as good as I expected. I would be curious to see how the coil suspension version of the Model S handles.

S mop

Please explain why having "600k worth of Tesla automobiles" makes selling your 120k Model S pretty far down on the TODO list? Doesn't make sense to me.... If you are unsatisfied with your purchase simply get rid of it - problem solved. That to me would make a better statement than complaining about it here, wouldn't it?

And another thing, for the life of me I cannot understand why Fisker picked the unrefined and noisy GM Ecotec for their "supercar". Can anyone imagine another manufacturer making such a boneheaded decision? BTW, MotorTrend stated Fisker's 0-60 time as 5.9 seconds in sport mode ACCORDING TO Fisker. Official results has Fisker's 0-60 in 6.3 to 6.5 sport mode and 7.9 in "stealth" mode (whatever that is). Here's more of what MotorTrend stated about Fisker's ICE: "When you ask for a burst of acceleration it needs to work harder and rev higher, and a harsh engine note penetrates the cabin, sounding less than premium." Sorry, the Fisker is a pig.

Again, the Fisker is mediocre - period. If you value style over substance, this vehicle is for you.

"Stealth" mode in the Karma refers to battery power only, no putt-putt power.

I think smop doesn't really have 600K in cars. He's probably some kid with nothing better to do than to disrupt this board. His posts are odd and his responses often do not make sense.

SMOP, if you are reading this, please kindly post some pictures of your 600K in cars with a loaf of bread on the hoods.

Maybe then we can all take your comments seriously.

tranhv68,

I would be more than happy to post the aforementioned pictures. If I do this what will I get in return? Perhaps an apology and a statement that you will leave the forums forever under the cloud of shame? If you are acceptable to these terms I will post these pictures ASAP. I am intolerant to wheat so I may post these pictures under something else (i.e. vegetables, credit card, kindle etc) Please let me know if this is acceptable for your "test"? Thank You

smop.

you get credibility, so stop jawing and post your pictures. This will be my last response to you unless you show proof.

SMOP, whether or not you have $600K of cars is irrelevant (what class for posting such a thing!). There is no question that you are both a troll and uninformed. Sorry there isn't a blocking function on this board because you would be outta here.

smop,

you sound like you are pretty well off. I think you can afford a couple of loaves of bread to photograph.

SMOP,

I agree to your terms. Go and buy some bread and show me the pictures. Thank you.

great I found an old loaf of bread in my trashcan and have posted this wrapper on 3 of the (x number of) Tesla's that I do own. This should suffice for your "test." Nice knowing you buddy GOOD NIGHT NOW!

http://www.picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/2121/99443647010336512071356162820rRw...

http://www.picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/1506/63349563915441460971356162828xZv...

http://www.picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/2905/6825848023712176281356162847MoQ5...

bigez1 will you purchase my Model S for more than I paid for it? if so please feel free to post in this thread with an offer. I will gladly sell you the car. I am not willing to take a financial hit on the vehicle to appease an internet message board. Now is the time to put your money where your mouth is. If you are unwilling to then I guess it is a moot point no? The Karma is higher quality than the Model S end of story. I look forward to your offer on my Model S. Thanks!

Pungoteague_Dave

Thanks for the comment it is very informative. What Tesla products do you personally own? If I were to make a bet I would guess 0? am I close? Thank you kind sir :)

@SMOP ... How is it that the Karma (weighs 800lbs more than the Model S) handles better or even (comparably) to the Model S?...

I bet it is the tires. Karma has some huge tires, much bigger than even 21" Model S Performance tires. Those should give it a bit better grip at corners, at least on dry tarmac road.

IIRC Elon Performance S has wider rear tires just to improve handling.

S Mop

Will I purchase your Model S from you? Seriously, I doubt you could sell anything to anyone. As far as taking a financial hit - from what you've already admittedly purchased, you've clearly demonstrated your proficiency at losing money.

This is my final post to you and my final post on this thread. Time to move on... However before I sign off, I'll leave you and and everyone who reads this with my final Fisker vs Model S argument. The 1st link is CR's Fisker eval and the 2nd is of the Model S. (Spoiler alert - The Fisker died and was recalled before the eval was completed).

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/09/25/consumer-reports-says-fisker-karma-...

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/11/video-tesla-model-s-drive--...

"A fool and his money are soon parted"
P.T. Barnum

Happy Holidays

It is very surprising how some are blinded by their love towards an object. I also think Model S is great but I am sure there is room for improvement in many areas (for example, in most pictures, the lip of the hood is at least 1/2 inch above the front "grille" - much larger than all other gaps and just plain ugly).

SMOP did not argue that the Karma is better in any way or in average for most people. He just pointed out what he THINKS is better in Fisker's car. Instead of listening and taking it with a grain of salt (especially that most will never push their car as far as SMOP), people are attacking the messenger? Accusations of being a fake??? Unreal!!!

The best and probably only way to improve something (including oneself) is to sincerely look for defects and failures, and better do that with a magnifying glass. Only once you are aware of those you can take steps to correct them.

@bigez1 from what you've already admittedly purchased, you've clearly demonstrated your proficiency at losing money
and
"A fool and his money are soon parted"
P.T. Barnum

Directed against guy with three Teslas sounds like anti-tesla attack.

SMOP is not the first that has complained about Model S handling. Apparently it isn't quite as sharp as it could be, and there is that "wiggling" of rear end at accelerations mentioned now by several people. I find it quite believable that Model S doesn't handle cornering extremely well compared to best ICE cars (it's really heavy car), what I find surprising that Karma apparently does handle cornering well.

I may not agree with everything you are saying SMOP, but damn those pictures made me laugh.

Nicu.Mihalache

Actually SMOP did proclaim the Fisker superior to the MS unless you don't consider the statement "higher quality" among other like statements as proclamations. However, I do agree with you on two very important points:

The MS has room for improvement - All cars do. I never said it was perfect or even close to perfect. I've test driven the MS twice and researched it ad nauseam before finalizing my purchase. However, I also believe criticism should be constructive and not simply to smear. You may or may not agree and I'll respect that.

Most importantly, you are correct in another very important way. The statements in my last post were unnecessary and not needed to make my point. Clearly, I went too far and thanks for pointing it out.

S Mop - if you read this, pls accept my apology.

This thread is hilarious. I love how people who have not even taken delivery of their vehicle are lecturing me on how great the vehicle is. Now that is funny.

@Timo re: Karma Handling

I find that very surprising too. Tesla has always said that the Model S handling will blow away everything else. This is clearly not the case with my Model S.

Bump. Best. Thread. Ever.

Hey SMOP, do you have a Fisker yet? If so, I'd be interested to see how you think it drives in real life rather than from articles. From the reviews that I have read - no, I don't own one - it sounds like it handles quite well but is pretty slow, with its worst performance when trying to overtake, ie 40mph upwards.

I'd agree that the interior of the Fisker looks better, however the review from an owner at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnYuO0bGSTc really put me off it. His later review of the interface on the centre console is hilarious. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK8MqjagHu8&list=UUYmIS0Idv-xpWD5LHt7kZ6A...)

It's a real pity as I still think the Fisker is gorgeous.

Gorgeous? To me, it always has looked like a caricature of a car that's trying to look fast.

@Brian H: With the current performance it's more show than go, but if it had similar performance to the model S then it wouldn't be.


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