What is the maximum "Out the door" price you are will to write a check for (before rebates). Please be realistic.
160 mi base MS 57400
Out the door check = $76,350
Here in Norway there is a high sale tax on new cars. A BMW 530i is about $135 000 – 145 000 depending on extras. Gas is also heavily taxed (even though we have lots of our own oil in the North Sea and are pumping up all we can, making discussion on limiting the use our gigantic oil reserve fund to avoid overheating the economy one of the main political discussions ) – so the price of one US gallon of gas is about $9.4
Fortunately the authorities have so far seen the advantage of having people moving from ICE to EV and have introduced the following incitements several years ago
• No sales tax or VAT on EV ( Taxes accounts for about 50% of the new car price for ICE),
• Free passage on toll station
• The yearly “road tax” is $71 as opposed to $507 for ICE
• Free parking and charging on public parking lots
• Free ticket on ferries between public stem roads
• Half tax compared to ICE if you employer gives you free use of a company owned car
• Extra bonus per km reimbursed travelled when you use your own car in official travel
Thus a Tesla S will be about half price compared to ICE cars with the same size/performance/luxury factor. That is why I already have reserved my Signature (EU SIG 53), hoping to get it before the government changes it’s scheme for EV taxation
psirnes, I guess you are lucky that you do not have auto industry in Norway. Germany is very hesitant with EV incentives, and of course that's partly b/c the local auto industry does not have anything to offer, i.e., any incentives would benefit only foreign manufacturers -- obviously not feasible in Germany.
This is sad b/c IMO German auto industry needs a hearty kick in the ass to stop designing EVs for failure and start to develop EVs that are actually worthy of a German car maker. That's one of the main reasons I am going to buy a Model S (I'll drive by the headquarters of the German auto makers one day and ask why I had to buy an American car...), but sadly that means that I'll have to pay the full price (I would choose a smaller/cheaper/less luxurious car if I had a choice).
Wow, those are some great incentives! Just the gas taxes alone would be more than enough incentive for me.
Tesla should do quite well in Norway!
Actually, they do already:
One more thought: Below is a nicely built 5 series, with STD warrantly etc. Add the net difference between electricity and gas, this should be solid reference point for buyers on price.
My 528i SedanDetails2.0 liter, 4-cylinder engine
See all standard features .Base MSRP$46,700.Black Sapphire Metallic$550.Black Dakota Leather$1,450.Dark wood trim$0.Sport Package$3,600.Head-up Display$1,300.Navigation system$1,900.Destination & Handling:$875.
BMW Ultimate Service™
A suite of premium benefits that are included at no cost with all new BMW Vehicles.4 Years/50,000 Miles WarrantyIncluded4 Years/50,000 Miles Maintenance ProgramIncluded4 Years/Unlimited Mileage Roadside AssistanceIncluded4 Years/Unlimited Mileage BMW Assist™ Safety PlanIncluded.
Total MSRP as Built$56,375
Larry Chanin | NOVEMBER 5, 2011
I wonder if Tesla will reduce the destination fee if I take delivery at the store more than 200 miles from our home.
If I'm not mistaken conventional destination charges are to get the car to the dealer. In the case of Tesla I'm guessing that there will probably be an additional charge to get it to the customer's home. I'm hoping to avoid that charge by picking it up from the store.
Anybody with a roadster that can tell us how this works?
The Roadster destination charge here in FL was fixed at $1,950. It didn't make any difference if I picked up at Dania Beach or if they delivered it to my house.
In Quebec we pay a luxury tax each year if car costs more than $40k. Sales tax is 15%. This leaves me little money to add options to my model s. I reluctantly will have to sell my 1976 Datsun 280Z which I purchased new in 1976.
When I put my 5K reservation down payment, I had in mind:
+$1,500 destination (this is something that Telsa could innovate by lifting it - god I hate this fee - everybody has to pay it - it should be illegal not to include it in base price
+ Quebec sales taxe of 15% (which would be offset by the $7,500-$8,000 EV credit)
Result = about $60K... EV make so much sense in Quebec where electricity is cheap and green.
That is still pretty expensive for a car. At least for me. I am hopefull that since Tesla is bragging that its Model S compares to high end BMW and Audi, it comes pretty well equipped even with base model.
Stephen K, I didn't know about this luxury tax, are you sure? I don't pay anything today for my big SUV worth > 40K. Thought there was a motor size yearly tax (greater than 3.5L but no impact on EV :-))
I was thinking my bosses $97K BMW 750i was expensive when he got it a few months ago, until I started adding up the costs of the Model S that I want. With the Sport package (est $10K, but I'm thinking it should be somewhere around $5K from what I hear that it entails) the large battery required for the Sport, plus a pano roof and a few small options, this car (before tax credit) is going to be close to what his 750i is.
Yes, the cost of ownership will be less, but since I'll only be doing 3000-4000 miles a year in the Tesla, it's not saving me that much over my current ride (Audi S4).
Given that I could get by with the 160 mile battery (commute = 3.5 miles, I might do 18 miles in a day including child drop off, drive to work, out to lunch and then home), I'm going to have to think long and hard as to whether I want to spend the estimated $30K more for the Sport Package. It will either be a lowly base model or a fully loaded car for me.
C'mon, you only live once buddy. You know you want to blow that 750i out of the water and make him green with envy. Plus think of all the additional trips you can take when they're practically free with an electric car!
@pbrulott.......There is supposed to be a 1% luxury tax added to the registration fee of the vehicle until the vehicle is six years old. Don't you have to pay this when you renew your plate registration? Please let me know.
here is the link:
@ SK and toto
Thanks for this info, you are right this will be adding to the cost of ownership. I didn't notice on my current renewal... It will be aroud 150-200$ a year.
Still need to be reassured on 2 things anyway: upcoming pricing structure and winter qualities of the car
When is the American roadshow passing by Montreal? couldn't make the Toronto one last week.
According to the Toronto office, the car will be coming to Montreal next year when they have a test-driveable car.
After seeing the Beta version in the Seattle showroom last weekend we are now QUESTIONING for the first time our Tesla S deposit and awaiting purchase. We are concerned about: 1)The back seat head and foot room 2)The interior quality and 3)The options pricing.
We realize no car is perfect nor can it please everyone but we might be embarrassed to let our BMW, Lexus, & Mercedes friends sit in the back seat of our Model S. At 5'11" the back seat did not feel comfortable for headroom or for my feet under the front seats. Maybe they can change the pitch or heigth of the back seat but I think it sat a bit low already (The width was fine. This observation was made with the panoramic roof so I worry a solid roof will be worse for headroom and that it might make you feel even more cramped. Now that the panoramic roof is indeed an option I worry what they are going to charge for it.
The exterior is wonderful. I love the mirrors but hope they fold.
Tesla are you listening? Make some tweeks & announce options very soon.
Elon Musk states the Performance MS will be 100K range
JTSEA, if your six foot friends are frequently in the back seat of your sedan and Tesla doesn't somehow increase the headroom, then yes, you may want to reconsider your purchase. I very rarely have anybody sit in the back; I use it mainly for storage.
The mirrors do and will fold.
Odd. Several folks over six foot have said the back seat was just fine after rides at the Oct event.
I think it depends on if you unconsciously scrunch up or if you unconsciously keep your head under the pano roof part of the top. All I know is that the top of my head did brush the ceiling at one point.
Maybe I have a tall trunk. :)
At the store openings, keep in mind that the driver seat is being moved a lot (well, at least by me) by people trying out the seat positioning controls.
Now we know
100K+ for Sig & just under for Performance. I think average selling price will be 80K out-the-door.
Based on just published pricing: 81,840 with 230 bat and 6.750 in options
Right now I live about 20 min away from the factory and will be pretty pissed if I have to pay $1950 delivery charge and not be able to just pick it up at the factory. Mark my words, that would be a f*****g deal breaker...
For the record, the sales tax in my native Sweden is 25%, calculated on the sales price *and* applicable import taxes. Did I win?
I'm torn. I very base model with maybe 12k in options, or the Performance model (which at it base price is a bargain!). I've got some pondering to do after the release of the price list that just came out. AH, I'm in luck, I have time!
"Tesla has to price its product to pay its U.S. taxes, which only increases the already-high VAT you pay."
While this is possibly true of Tesla's probably-sky-high property taxes (buying property in California subjects you to outrageous property taxes, thanks to Prop 13; though perhaps Tesla simply bought a company which owned the property, which would give it rock-bottom property taxes, thanks again to the outrageous Prop 13), it is not true in any other sense.
Tesla isn't going to be paying income taxes for a long time. Like all businesses, they get to roll Net Operating Losses forward for 20 years to cancel out any profits before taxes -- and currently Tesla expects, according to its annual report, that it will not be able to use all its NOLs, meaning that they don't expect profits to have paid off development costs by 2023. (Well, an aggressive expansion strategy will do that.)
Tesla doesn't pay sales taxes on exported cars, and as a business, it doesn't pay sales taxes on a lot of the equipment it purchases. It doesn't pay export taxes because the US has no export tariffs.
Tesla has to pay payroll taxes, of course, but these are lower than in most countries.
The main way in which Tesla is disadvantaged in tax terms by being in the US lies in *fees* and *mandates*. Tesla has to pay large, large numbers of fees, the most obvious of which are the numerous dealer and manufacturer license fees for each state, but there are lots more. And the fees are high, for things which are often cheap or free public services in other countries. So it would be more accurate to say that Tesla has to price its cars to pay US *fees*. You could also include things like soon-to-be-mandatory private health insurance for employees, which are, again, simply public services in many other countries.
"Tesla has to pay payroll taxes, of course, but these are lower than in most countries."
Continuing the OT...
Backing information for this assertion (the second half your statement)?
As long as we're staying off topic . . . If you are interested in all things payroll tax you can start at the wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payroll_tax) and then dig into the complexities of each country (in particular the required employer contribution for various social insurance schemes).
The notes below exclude income tax and "safety net" withholding that employees are required to pay (employee contributions) and look at "safety net" contributions that the employer makes on behalf of the employee (employer contributions). I also do not include other required people expenses that might be incurred in each locale such as sick pay, vacation time, mandatory allowance schemes, etc.
In the US the employer contribution is 6.2% up to $106,800 for Social Security plus 1.45% on all wages for Medicare. In addition, there are state and federal unemployment taxes that are a little more complex (FUTA/SUTA) so we will ignore as it is usually less than 1% over the full salary.
**Note** Many US employers purchase health insurance on behalf of their employees whereas other countries have nationalized insurance that is paid in the form of government payroll taxes. I don't know Tesla's health insurance premiums, nor what they pay on the employee's behalf, but according to the BLS, private sector employers paid an average of 7.6% for health benefits. Call the all in rate for the US 16%.
In Germany the overall employer contribution is closer to 22% and is somewhat complex.
Brazil requires employers to contribute 20% of total payroll for social security.
Don't even go to France, it's well north of 30%.
The UK is incredibly complex with their national insurance coverage, allowances, maternity, sick pay, etc but suffice it to say that it's higher than the US (feel free to research if you like).
While this is just a smattering of countries, you get the picture. The US is indeed lower (and significantly lower in some cases when you adjust for differing vacation and sick pay rules). As a rule, emerging economies tend to have lower employer contributions than established economies.
UK: Import Duty and 20% VAT
I hope (not much...) that the UK price will be a Pound sterling amount lower than the $ amount (No exchange rate) but I don't hold my breath.
60KWH 80KHW Perf
Price 59,900 69,900 84,900
Options 10,200 10,200 7,200
Taxes 7,010 8,010 9,210
Total 77,110 88,110 101,310
Deposit -5,000 -5,000 -5,000
Federal -7,500 -7,500 -7,500
State -4,000 -4,000 -4,000
TradeIn -18,000 -18,000 -18,000
TSLA@(34) -13,600 -13,600 -13,600
Loan Amt 29,010 40,010 53,210
Wife says we can have a 50K loan balance when all said and done. What should we do? I was planning on 60KWH the whole time but now thinking of moving up. I drive 5-10 miles per day, might need to charge once per week.
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