Forums

Join The Community
RegisterLogin

Signature S pricing

Hello,

I got off a call from the rep few weeks back with an unsure answer. What is the approx pricing of the Signature S? He said it is going to be 'comparable' to a BMW 5-series. Well, that could be anywhere between 60k-85k....

Anybody has any insight?

Regards,
Sharad

Mycroft, I think this is gonna make you happy: "If you get the high performance version with all the extras it could be 100k" says Elon Musk.
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11984 (7:00-7:20)

Sounds like you really need to stretch to make this a 6-figure car. I guess that's cheaper than you expected? It is definitely way cheaper than an M5, let along "with all the extras".

No, he didn't say it had *all* the extras. He didn't even say if it was the Signature Sport or just a 300 mile base upgraded to Sport.

So we don't know if it includes the panoramic roof or the "luxury" features included in the Signature package. We also don't know if $100k is before or after subtracting the federal tax rebate.

I'm assuming that it includes Signature, but doesn't include pano roof and that it does subtract the federal rebate. (I'm hoping $100k after rebate *does* include the pano roof - we'll see.)

So, if a Signature Sport is $108,000 (before rebate) plus pano roof, then it's going to be more than I expected, not less. Remember, the rebate doesn't come until the taxes are filed. We have to pony up the full price when we buy the car.

Elon Musk did say "all the extras". Here's what I wrote down from the interview link above", "....so if you get the high performance version with all the extras, it could be 100k.

It "could" also be 700k. :P

Here it is again: "...and with all the options it goes up to about a hundred thousand dollars." (emphasis mine)
http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2011/11/01/n_w_tesla_drive_musk.cnnmoney/ (1:30-1:35)

I hope you're right Volker. But it is possible. Here's a hypothetical. All numbers after deducting $7,500 tax rebate of course.

Sig = $80k
Sport = $10k
Pano Roof = $3k
10k charger = $1k
Ext. warranty = $1.5k
Rear facing seats = $1k (not that I'd want them)

Between the sig and sport, all the other options, (leather, trim, air suspension, wheels, special paint, NAV, badging), would be covered.

There you go. Under $100k.

Now we just need to wait 1-2 months for the real numbers.

Waiting, waiting.... geesh this frickin waiting is hard!!!

Mycroft,

What is a 10k charger?

Thanks.

The Model S comes standard with a 10kw charger. My understanding is that this is all you need if you're only charging overnight in your garage. If you want to take full advantage of 440v commercial chargers, (also, this is my understanding), then you'd need the second optional 10kw charger.

The charger(s) is/are built into the car, located under the rear passenger seat.

Those in-car chargers are for changing AC to DC for batteries. Direct DC charger goes past that, and can charge with higher wattage than 20kW. Otherwise 45 minute Model S charging would be impossible.

20kW isn't that much: 240V * 90A. That means you need that for fast home chargers too (if your home can support 90A connection).

Ride525, a traditional "dryer" 240v circuit is capable of providing 30 amps. That would charge at a rate of ~24 miles per hour. You can more than double that rate with a circuit capable of supplying 80amps. Hwoever, in that case, you will need to order the car with a second charger.

@Mycroft

"The Model S comes standard with a 10kw charger. My understanding is that this is all you need if you're only charging overnight in your garage. If you want to take full advantage of 440v commercial chargers, (also, this is my understanding), then you'd need the second optional 10kw charger."

The on-board chargers, either the 10 kW or 20kW, are for AC charging at 120 or 240 volts. DC fast charging can be done at 440 Volts and it bypasses the on-board chargers.

Larry

Yes, I think you're right Larry. So you only need the second charger if you want to charge with more than 30-50 amps.

Does anybody know if the single 10kw charger can handle a full 50 amp receptacle?

"Does anybody know if the single 10kw charger can handle a full 50 amp receptacle?"

If the receptacle is at 220v, then the maximum current the 10kW charger can draw is 10,000/220 = 45.4A.

I'm planning on putting a 50A circuit breaker on my receptacle, though, so that it doesn't constrain the car below its peak charging rate.

Hi Robert,

So to achieve the maximum advertised AC charging rate of 62 miles per hours at home would require purchasing the second on-board charger, installing the new High Power Connector with a 90 amp circuit breaker. Correct?

Thanks.

Larry

Good info regarding charging from VolkerP

VolkerP | OCTOBER 4, 2011
Model S comes with a built in 10kW AC charger. You can feed it with a UMC version 2.0 device limited to 240V and 40 amps.
You need a single phase 240V AC circuit with a 50 Amp breaker due to national electric code which requires max 80% breaker rating for continuous load.

This adds <40 miles of range per hour to your pack.

You can order your Model S with a second 10kW AC charger onboard. The two units team up to suck power from the same charge port connectors for a total of 20kW. You can feed them with a new HPC version 2.0 with 240V and 80 amps of AC. You need 100A breaker rating.

This adds <80 miles of range per hour to your pack. In general, charging slows down when approaching 100% SoC.

That's the limit of Model S charging from AC. There is no room for a third charging unit.

Another way is fast charging with 90kW DC, up to 450V and 200Amps. The on board AC charging units are not used. DC power is provided by a Tesla charging unit consisting of 9x 10kw chargers, like the single unit in the standard car. The device is fed with 240V 120Amps three phase AC grid power. I assume that phases are balanced by routing one phase to every pack of 3 chargers. Development is in prototype state. This device's power demand exceeds typical residential electric installations.

The charger will charge your Model S with the 300 mile pack to 80% SoC within 45 minutes. This kind of charging degrades the battery and is not recommended for daily use. It is intended for road trips.
It is not clear if the smaller packs can be charged with the same 90kW. I expect the same 45 minutes for 80% charge due to current limit of the cells.

My decision on whether or not to get the second charger will depend on its price and the ability to add it to the car later. The only time I would likely want it would be if I were traveling and wanted to use someone's HPC. Otherwise, 40 miles an hour should be more than adequate.

Hi Mycroft,

For home charging most folks, who charge overnight, are going to find that they don't need the HPC, so I don't think you are going to find many while traveling. However, I think that adding a second on-board charger will speed up charging from NEMA 14-50 outlets. When I was at the Fremont event the engineer who helped design the new mobile charging system said that a single on-board charger would charge at 31 miles per hour.

Larry

That's good to know Larry.

The second 10k charger certainly adds to the flexibility. The main question will be the cost.

The HPC-2 shouldn't cost that much since it's mainly just an adapter and plug. The spendy part will be the cabling going from the breaker panel to the HPC. Even if you can DIY, it would probably run a couple thousand dollars.

So thumbnailing about $3k-$5k for an externally mounted HPC would certainly limit the number of volunteers supplying current for Tesla travelers.

Back on topic, I may be repeating previous posts, but I think the Sig will include air suspension, but it will not include pano roof, the second charger, and of course the rear facing seat option.

So the most the Sig *should* cost is $80k AFTER subtracting the federal tax rebate.

Hi Mycroft,

If I knew with certainty that the Signature would "only" be $80Gs I would have made the leap. ;-) However, based on what I heard from a Tesla employee while at Fremont, the Signature is going to cost a bit more than the general production models with comparable options. So the Signatures involve paying a premium for exclusiveness and early delivery.

Larry

When I signed up for my Model S, Tesla was promising a car that would travel 300 miles on a charge for $50K. Over time there has been significant "mission creep." A car that can only travel 160 miles before refueling is not in the same league as a BMW or MB. Promises of 45 minute recharges while on the road are now requiring an additional charger....

I can justify spending $50K in an effort to wean the US from its oil dependence, but its quite a different story when the price is well north of $70,000.

@Mark44: I'm not sure when you signed up, but in my time here I've noted that Tesla says that you can get the car for $50000, and the car is capable of going 300 miles. But they always say it in two different sentences, the first showing how low the price can be, and the second saying how far you can get the car to go, implying that they are the same car but never actually stating that. These statements seem very carefully rehearsed, and you pretty much have to know what they're talking about beforehand to understand it correctly.

I'm not defending such talk, nor angry about it... Business as usual, I guess.

When I signed up for my Model S, Tesla was promising a car that would travel 300 miles on a charge for $50K. (Mark44)

Mark, can you cite a source? My memory may be betraying me, but as far as I can remember, Tesla advertised the Model S as "starting at $50k (after federal rebate)" and "up to 300 miles" from day 1. Showing off the top specs together with the price for the lowest configuration is common practice in all industries, just read advertisements for computers, holiday travels or ICEs.

Believing that Tesla would be able to deliver a 300 mile battery at $50k without asking any questions, would have been naive. For anybody interested in the matter, it was already a huge surprise and hard to grasp that they would be able to deliver a 300 mile battery at *any* price.

I'm looking at a piece of marketing material that Tesla sent me (at my request) shortly after I made my reservation in February 2010. In a column of attributes on the left, it states:
RANGE

  • Up to 300 mile range
  • 45 minute QuickCharge
  • Charges from 120V, 240V, or 480V
  • 5 minute battery swap

In the right top corner, it states:

Base Price $49,500*
Now Taking Reservations
Deliveries Begin 2011
*Price shown includes $7,500 Federal Tax Credit. Consult a tax expert for details.

The only thing that has changed is that the delivery date has changed to July 2012.
Tesla

"Up to 300 mile range"

My impression was, just as with an ICE, mileage would depend on driving habits. Drive aggressively get fewer miles from a charge, drive "gentle" extend your mileage.

Not angry, just frustrated that what I thought would be an affordable alternative to an ICE is looking more and more like a pipe dream.

Not angry, just frustrated that what I thought would be an affordable alternative to an ICE is looking more and more like a pipe dream. (Mark44)

Mark, it isn't a pipe dream! It's for real! The Model S is not yet "the affordable EV" but it paves the way to get there as soon as possible (with an emphasis on *possible*). I have written at length about it, you may want to read my post that starts with "cybercop, das Leben ist kein Ponyhof!" (the rest is in English):
http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/oct1event%E2%80%93-model-s-exter...

It's cold comfort, but some comfort at least.

The up to 300 miles on the base vehicle might be accurate if you drive 20mph the whole time....

Mark, back-of-the-envelope, the 'S' total cost of ownership would be about the same as a leased ICE car with a 30% lower sticker price. There's also the question of the value of the intangibles like home-refueling, cleanliness (no combustion products to deal with), noise reduction, and so on.

It's a value-for-dollar calculation that will vary a lot, buyer to buyer. So far, few reservation holders are expressing pre-buyer's remorse!

Right. There is no way you can make it pencil out if you just consider dollars and cents. But if you consider convenience, no other car can match it. Between the 5 seconds it takes to plug it in each night to the convenience of having your email read to you on your way to and from work, it just cannot be matched and is well worth the premium to those who can afford it.

Volker.Berlin: Thanks for the link. I too would never consider buying a $50K vehicle until the Model S. Maybe I will need to wait until Tesla comes out with the next model, though I sure love the way the Model S looks. I get to touch the Beta next Monday - I'll see if the attraction is reinvigorated.

Sudre: Great idea! Thanks


X Deutschland Site Besuchen