Looking forward to concrete information...
If places are remote there is a chance the utility company is going to bill the owner for the larger 4160 to 480 volt transformer to up service size from 100 to 200 amp. Those things are hellishly expensive and, many times in rural locations, purchased by the customer and maintained by the utility company.
They also charge for the poles that are run across private property. Once the power leaves the utility easement the cost is transferred to the customer. That's the sucky part... but it is typically cheaper than buying batteries and inverters :-)
Thanks for you response. I was under the impression, from a local EVSE provider that is deploying QCs, that it was difficult to find hosts who could guarantee 70+ amp, let alone 140+ amp availability.
I have heard costs for commercial 6.6 kW L2 charger install runs in the $15k range and an L3 (50 kW) is more like $500k without utility upgrades. I was thinking that $400k would buy a lot of batteries/inverters, but electrical is not my field of expertise so these numbers might be off.
As clear as your suggestion to others is to -
If anyone else wants to explain transformer windings and how they work to Peter7 go right ahead. He can google for his own info in my opinion. Tesla (the man) wrote the book on that stuff already.
You specifically said,
"You are bringing a minimum of 4160 volt single phase to the location. A transformer will step it down to 480 volt three phase."
which I asked for an example of a transformer that will take SINGLE phase 4KV and convert it to THREE phase 480V.
Perhaps I misunderstood what you are saying or you misspoke?
And since we are suggesting the use of Google, perhaps not in your area, but in many others you will find horrendous use fees for commercial properties that exceed a set usage, and others that will bill for a year off of a peak usage draw in the previous year. Both make a raw supercharger connection very expensive. You should google some and see.
You guys are missing the obvious issue. Think three years in the future. I stop in for a change of my rode hard and put away wet battery, and its charged for use after I leave. You stop by later in your brand new 2016 S and your new battery you paid nearly a 20k bump over base for last month. You drop your new battery off, in exchange for mine and drive off, never to see your pack again.
Who wants to sign up for that?
Agreed. Swapping bad for that reason, plus those mentioned by others earlier, in my opinion.
I wouldn't be surprised if they've made an assumption that no more than a couple cars are going to need a supercharge at a given station in any, say 8 hour period. In that case it could be just the equivalent of a couple Model S batteries with a simple 40 amp connection to the grid, supplemented with solar panels. Those probably don't add much practical value but they look cool and make some people happy, so good for marketing at least.
Someone earlier pointed out that the batteries for supercharge stations may be cheaper since they don't have to fit in the space below the passenger compartment of your car, can be less than perfect at holding 100% charge, etc. That makes sense. They could essentially use the ones that fall short in QA for supercharger stations.
the only way to meet expectations -and to avoid "battery-stress-anxiety"- is the combination of battery-swapping and slow load with eco-power!
If You swap between two cities, You get a sudden full car within 2 minutes. While are You going on Your trip, Your original battery get's loaded, but slowlier (without battery-stress)..
on the way back You change the pack back!
Only in this combination You get the result of:
Fastest load AND no battery-stress!
So, there also is no issue with changing batterypacks, warranty etc...I think, the power will come from regenerative energysources through the grid. Are there major providers of eco-power in the states?
In germany we have "ökostrom-Anbieter". You get the power from the grid, but 100% clean power from wind, solar etc
"So, there also is no issue with changing batterypacks, warranty etc"
Just because you say it is so doesn't make it true, there are very real concerns about that. Say in 2017 I buy a Model S with an 85Kwh battery worth $30,000 (see what I did there ;) I then take it on a road trip from the factory back to my home state, on the way I swap the battery out at a supercharger and I get a 2012 battery which has been thrashed over the years and only has 80% of its charge left...you bet your life I have an issue with giving away my brand new battery pack I just bought for a heavily used one 5 years old. The reality is swapping will only work if they went with a "buy the car lease the battery" model and they haven't done that so battery swapping will not happen.
Your proposal presumes that drivers will be returning along the same route - which is not necessarily the case.
And I understand that many fans of Tesla are big believers in "clean energy", but most people will not sacrifice convenience for perceived eco-friendliness. At least, I won't.
From my personal experience using the 50 kW QCs for the LEAF, stopping for 10 - 20 minutes is really not that big of a deal as long as charger is located in a decent spot with some food options nearby.
It is actually better than the 5 - 10 minute gas stop. You have to stand out in the heat and man the pump to fill your ICE. WIth the QCs, you plug in and then go inside a store a grab something to eat or get a few grocery items.
I have brought lots of friends and relatives along during these QC stops and none have them felt like it was unpleasant. All of them have been shocked by how much range was added once we returned to the car. I usually play the game of guessing how much range was added while were in the store...everyone guesses low.
It will be a little different on a road trip with the Model S, but the 30 - 40 minute break will be welcomed especially if you have passengers on the trip.
I guess my point is, you have to break the mindset of standing next to your car for 30 minutes like when you fill a gas tank.
Just to be clear so Peter7 doesn't want me to invent a whole business... I really don't think battery swapping works right now in the US....
I think what Whitey is trying to describe is similar to what I suggested but no one reads it close enough.
If I live in St. Louis with a 60kw pack and I want to go to Florida, I would stop by the St. Louis service center and RENT an 85kw pack and they would care for and store my 60kw pack in St. Louis. Along my drive I can continue to rent more 85kw packs at swap station or service centers leaving the one I brought so no restocking needed... or I could just supercharge. When I return home to St. Louis I would go back to the service center and get my fully charge (well maybe not fully charged), inspected and tested battery back. The rental would include roadside assistance if I get a bad battery.
I do believe this service would be more costly than renting an ICE. I am not against it if it's practical and I would use the service if it was cost effective.
I don't think that the entire supercharger network will be in place from day 1. I'll bet they roll it out as the need arises, based on where the sales are going to. Others have speculated SoCal, and that makes sense. I live out here. The trips are: LA-SF, LA-Vegas, and LA to San Diego.
The thing is, you don't need say 10 geographically spread out supercharging stations between LA and SF, you only need 1. Granted, as they sell more cars, the station(s) need to be expandable. There is lots of empty space between LA and SF where you could install a single supercharging station, have it solar powered, and have it also be expandable. I would also agree with others that have posted that having a grid connect is likely mandatory. Having a large if not fully solar component out here not only makes sense, but gets Tesla good press too. You expand as needed, just like any other business.
I also agree that places like the Pacific Northwest that have abundant hydro should not even have a solar component. Hydro is renewable, so no point in putting up solar panels where the sun doesn't shine. You are still "green" if thats one of the goals.
Only 4 more days till we find out. I don't think that battery swap is in the cards at this time. I have heard on the other board that it might be possible for one to "rent" a larger battery for a long road trip, say if you have a 40kw version and want to do a longer trip. Getting your original battery back when you return. I would think in that case a trip to the local service center would be required. In many cases that is impractical, unless the service center is close by or on the way.
In the Northeast, there is lots of wind power available. It wouldn't be too hard to imagine Tesla buying a fixed % output of one of those wind farms for supplying a supercharger station, kind of like solar here is Ca. Grid backup required obviously, but you simply buy enough wind power over time to offset whatever the electric draw is.
Concerning Ivanpah (off topic): That single facility will double the amount of solar energy produced in California when it goes online. Getting from LA to Vegas will be no problem :-)
I believe that you have reversed kWh and kW throughout your post. KWh is accumulated energy (used or generated) over a time period, measured in 1000s of watt-hours. 1 W for 1000 hrs = 1 kW for 1 hour = 1 kWh.
I concur that supercharger station rollout will be incremental, although I'm not sure a supercharger is really required for LA-LV, since it's only 265 miles. You could drive fast and A/C cool, and with a level 2 charge for a lunch/stretch break, roll into your destination with a reasonable amount of charge.
In Washington (state) you will still have the roof, so you may as well have solar panels on it. Sure, west of the Cascade mountains they won't do much (but help keep you dry) in the winter, but in peak summer driving season there's 16 hours of daylight to make electrons. And east of the Cascades, there's not so much clouds year round.
I'm sure, that Tesla don't let one KW of usual power through their superchargers. No way.
This would be against their rules of using clean energy !
And the swapping stuff just works, if You change the pack back into Your own...
I bet you a beer on it. There will be a grid connection.
Elon is too smart to make an impractical system just to appeal to the fringe. Most people don't care where the power comes from, they just want the thing to work.
Those no-compromise, Earth-First, eco-terrorist types who will rebel against the use of any power not classified as "green" are probably living in a cave making clothing from their own feces and couldn't afford a Model S anyway. No sense sacrificing practicality for them.
Again, your swapping scheme requires that people visit the same place twice to reclaim their battery. Not practical unless that happens to be in one's travel plans already, which it often is not.
ok, it will be connected to the grid...but if they produce the same amount of juice or buy clean energy anywhere... there juice is clean. There will be one way or any other to get this issue fixed. There CI promise clean energy consumption, this is fix!
And for the battery swapping: For sure all my thoughts are pure speculation. We all can google for infos but until now, the supercharger is top secret (I love it).
If they do the swapping service, it will either way 1 (swapping pack and swap it back later) or way 2 (a company in coorporation - like better place with their kind of battery service)
Tuesday morning we all will know it )
You are probably right about the KW KWH swapping. I am trying to type these message out in less than a minute proof read them and submit before I get timed out and risk losing the message if I forget to copy it first.
Is it just me?
Have you missed my mentions of the Lazarus addon? I NEVER EVER lose a post. In fact, I have every post in the last year+ at my fingertips, even ones I decided to scotch.
Of course, if you use IE there's no help or hope for you. Of course.
While we all have experience with bad rechargable batteries, a major difference in the Model S design is that the battery is actually a grid of bricks, each containing many batteries.
Do we know how this battery system will degrade? Will it degrade uniformly? Or could the degradation be isolated to a subset of the bricks and then possibly to a subset of batteries within that brick?
If the degradation isn't uniform - and it's possible to restore battery function by replacing only a subset of the bricks - that could help to extend the life of the battery systems - and could also reduce the risk of getting a bad battery if there was a swapping option.
Thanks Brian H! I saw the post long ago and with no search feature I was not able to find it when I got home to my desktop computer. (use a tablet a lot) Installing.
Would be awesome if Telsa put a Supercharger in Michigan right where I need one! Drive on ICE 360 miles 5.5 hrs at ~80mph no stopping with 18.5 gal tank. I will have 85KWH battery on Sig S not Perf. So yes, drive slower, longer range. Stop around 230 miles, recharge... where? using what? and how long? Then finish 140 miles (allowing 10 miles for off and on highway).
All j1772 that I have researched along my trip route are 240-30A. This would take me 8.5 hrs to charge from near empty to 160 mile range. Allowing a buffer to ensure arrival at destination. If I can get a HPC hooked up to ChargePoint monitoring software then I could stop for 2.5 hours to recharge enough to finish the trip. Other Tesla owners could use it too. In talks with ChargePoint now.
If you are running FF, open "Addons" from Tools (or Ctrl-Shft-A). It provides a Search feature; typing any word will give you relevant optional addons currently available.
If you are talking about searching these posts, any search engine will restrict itself to a site or subsite if you include a string like this:
That one works for just this forum, of course.
Has anyone introduced Solar City to this discussion? I think they will play a major role. It would give them another footprint for feeding the grid with excess power generated vs power used.
Sorry. It could also shift the required investment away from Tesla on to the profitable shoulders of Solar City.
Solar City needs a contracted income stream for its installations. Where would that come from?
Two guesses, and the first one doesn't count. :-)
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