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Top Gear and Model S

Quite possibly my two favorite things. Just want to get that out of the way.

What I like about Top Gear and what I like about Model S have nearly no overlap. This is the same Venn diagram of cars Jeremy likes and V4's. But, I want neither to change or compromise for what they believe in for they are both great and wonderful things.

With that being said I do hope the Model S review goes better than the Roadster review. I hope they pit it against the 4 door Panamera, BMW whatever, Merc whatever, Audi whatever and let the chips fall where they may.

How will it all go? My prediction: Jeremy will fall in love with the Model S when he sees it, sits in it, drives it through Gambon and Hammerhead and speeds off the line with the other 4 doors in it's wake. He'll most certainly mention distance to empty and be pleased. But charging will still be an issue he'll note. He'll mention the cargo space and rear leg room, while chuckling at the rear facing seats. And there will be a joke about the door handles, the big dash screen and sum it all up with another "I'm too dumb to email" joke. Stig will push it through it's paces and it will fall ahead of all other 4 doors including the Karma; If Fisker sends them one. Maybe James will get a word in about the environment? Maybe Richard will race it against an electric superbike? Whatever they do I hope it's creative, funny and entertaining without being too negatively pre-scripted, shortsighted and naive. See below...

My recap of the infamous Roadster review...

When I saw the Roadster get shat on by Jeremy it was much like the Prius review in that there was a feel of pre-scripting negativity. Sure they were positives and it rang true to most of their reviews where the anticipation seemed to wane throughout. Yes, viewers notice when there are quotes "It's positively Electric" and end with "...too quiet". Many of my gearhead friends noted that most likely they put their foot to the floor and kept it there until it ran out of juice (AKA 55 miles). I thought, sure, fine, ok, be that as it may, how many miles did the Elise go under the same conditions? 10.6 gallons and I'm guessing it's going to be less than half of it's city rating so let's say 80 Miles maybe? Regardless it's going to be way less just like the Roadster. And the Roadster beats the Elise of the line...so I'm saying this is a win for the Roadster even if it's 100Miles.

For the brakes issue. I'm sure every car they test have zero issues and they never break them while testing. Isn't all TV production and Auto-racing perfect on the first try? So why did they stoop so low here? It seemed rather ridiculous to me that it was mentioned. Almost like they believed they had found a huge flaw in the design of EV's that the whole world must know about as it might happen to you! To answer my own question of why did they even bother to bring this up? Simple, they've set a higher standard for this car *because* it's an EV. Jeremy has had issues with every car he's ever owned, he's mentioned this several times on air. But why not mention how other test cars have broken then? This so rarely happens I'm guessing they just find bigger flaws with the cars that play better on air.

For the cost issue. The car goes around the track for less than the cars below it on the lap times, so there's no argument here. Notice Jeremy doesn't say where the Elise ranks on the board. Surprise! It's way down at the bottom!

For the charging issues. This was the icing for me where I knew they had set a higher standard. Showing a nuclear plant, showing a tiny wind turbine and a standard charging port. Actually most of the UK's electric comes from the burning of natural gas (73%), it's 30% cleaner than burning petrol (Surprise!) and the recommended charging port gets you from empty to full while you sleep. You can't do that while on a trip to another country like Jeremy points out; but I doubt I'm doing that trip in a sportscar anyway.

What was missing from their review was how long the battery is supposed to last, maintenance and TCO. Which I could argue all favor the Roadster.

@Lush1

So you ARE a shill. A pretty good one, probably a professional. With all the markings: creating a distraction, plowing the company's defense line, ignoring facts, ignoring posts, while smartly disguising in seemingly sincere posts. Your last post, in desperation, reaches a new low. Facts are facts.

Oh boy, my first internet flaming! I answer it in the hope that it might help some people relax and consider a less dire perspective than those who believe Top Gear will ruin Tesla.

Dear Tiebreaker, Let me start by saying that I am not a shill for TG. I did not agree with their review of the Tesla and was disappointed in them for doing that hatchet job on such a great car, but I'm not worried that it will be the undoing of Tesla. I'm an American. I have no affiliation with Top Gear, or anyone or anything connected to it. I have worked in the broadcasting business for 40+ years so I know a little something about how it works, though I think common sense is all that is needed to understand how they work. I don't expect you to believe me. You are obviously a closed minded, dogmatic, aggressive, paranoid, hypocrite.
Are you really so delusional that you believe Top Gear has "shills" that comb the Tesla boards to counteract any negative comments people post about the show? I wonder what their budget is for that? They don't really need to do it. You have unwittingly presented opinions, stated as facts, which makes TG sound like the preeminent source for unbiased automotive news.
Regarding the "facts." I have made no factual representations. I have only expressed my own opinions. You, however, stated: "The truth is 90% of the viewers are taking them seriously." Where did you get that amazing statistic? Do you have access to internal Top Gear focus group research or something? I am surprised that any company would pay to poll that question. Please share the source of your facts with us.
You say that I am "Plowing the company's defense line." Again, can you site a source for TG's official defense line? I must have missed the memo. What is their "official defense line?" In fact, I doubt that people at Top Gear would agree with all of my characterizations of the show.
I maintain that they often speak in hyperbole. If you were to take every word they said literally, they would seem insane and you would likely end up dead. For example, I just watched a 2007 episode of TG in which they drove a train into a Renault Escape, to demonstrate what can happen to drivers who drive around closed crossing gates. After multiple slow motion replays of the massive, violent, collision, Jeremy said, "The message then is clear. Unless you want that to happen to you, always wear this" (points to his orange safety vest). It was a joke, though they never said it was. They ran no disclaimer. No warnings about the dangers of circumventing crossing gates were presented. I hope that viewers don't take everything said on Top Gear literally or people in orange vests will be bypassing railroad gates, believing that they are safe because they are properly attired. If they thought the public was that gullible and expected the show to be taken that seriously, they would never have done something so obviously absurd for risk of damaging their credibility.
A clever, well-written show like Top Gear requires of its viewers the perception and intelligence to interpret the information presented, to understand the fundamentals of entertainment. Things like humor, irony, word play, drama, double entendre; and know that they employ special effects, editing, musical scoring and so forth, all to tell a story, make a point, inform, amuse and otherwise communicate their message to the viewing public and keep them watching. That is their job and they are generally extremely good at it. Where do they state that every word they say is true and results are scientifically verifiable? If you are looking for unbiased automotive journalism, you are watching the wrong program. I believe that most people understand that, though you are starting to make me think I'm being naive. You seem to think people are stupid and take Top Gear as gospel. I have yet to meet a person that dim witted. It's a good, funny, compelling, entertaining program. It is not journalism. Even if they misrepresent themselves as fair and balanced, which they don't as far as I can tell, not everybody watches them. Of those who watch, probably few are as easily misled as you believe. Stop 10 strangers on the street and ask them if they saw Top Gear's evaluation of the Tesla. I wager that most of them will say, "What's a Tesla," or "What is Top Gear."
So, relax. Have some faith in humanity. You have vastly overestimated the power of Top Gear. That segment won't kill Tesla. The sky isn't falling, Chicken Little.

:-P

Here is the thing. You probably could stop 10 people on the street and ask them if they saw TG's eval on the Roadster and they would say no. But you could say the same thing for any car company. TG is a popular show, but it is targeted for only those interested in cars in the first place, i.e. us.

When TG does a bad review of a car it typically will not make a difference because (and i emphasize this point) those car companies have been around for a very long time and are well established. When they ripped apart the newest Bentley this past season, I highly doubt Bentley saw a correlation in sales and TG's review at all. Reason being, people who buy a Bentley probably are to rich to give a crap on some TV show's review, they buy for the name and the price and they are so well established it does not matter.

Telsa is a brand new company with 1 car out only right now. Plus they also are not a standard car company, they are and EV company. And EV's track record is not good at all, it did not end well for the first generation of Electric Cars. SO for a TV series to rip apart a car and slander some of its statistics, it will have a much larger impact to sales and overall perception of EV's. I get it that it is supposed to be a comedy TV show, but a review on a car is still going to be taken somewhat seriously by anyone. Therefore, it is still slander no matter which way you look at it. Damage may seem minimal, but it is already a smaller company that is working on a very fragile product.

I agree with Tiebreaker here. Lush is like cross-breed between searcher and earlier shills.

Actually, I like msiano17's more moderate position better than my own or Tiebreakers (I'm new to "flaming" so I've gotten a bit off track). It's a reasoned opinion, not an angry screed laced with made-up facts, vitriol, hysteria and hypocrisy. I can respect it. I can't disagree with it, nor can I totally agree with it. It is a point of view, not a fact and is as valid as any opinion on it's own merits. That's fair.
I would very much like to see comments from a person who was dissuaded from considering, buying or reserving a Tesla, based on seeing the Top Gear piece. I realize that this forum is an unlikely place to find such opinions. I'm not saying this as a dare, or to imply I want someone to "prove it." I am genuinely interested in learning about the mindset of a person in that position. If anyone should happen upon same, please post a link or some trail of breadcrumbs that leads there. I equally value evidence pointing toward or away from my positions. There's nothing wrong with being wrong. It's edifying and it's how we learn best, at least some of us.
TO THE HATERS:
I think some people don't know the definition of the word shill, so here it is:
shill - noun - an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others.
I am the one saying that Top Gear doesn't have nearly the gravitas that some afford it. Those who say things like 90% of the viewers are taking them seriously" are the ones decrying their might. I think they're too goofy yet funny, sometimes tedious, but clever enough to get me to watch. Mostly I enjoy the cars and the guests. Their ridiculous quests and challenges are predictable and tired so I typically FF through them. I wish that pony would learn a new trick. And I repeat, I thought the hatchet job they did on the Roadster was sad, but not entirely surprising, considering their lust for consuming gasoline as quickly as possible at high speed in the most expensive cars in the world. That's not hard to find seductive. A shill would support their review and say they exposed the seamy, weak, underbelly of the much touted, mythical, so-called miracle EV. I have said no such thing, quite the contrary, in fact. I have a reservation # around 1700. I believe in Tesla with all my heart, yet I can survive knowing there are plenty of doubters. I believe they are wrong, but I don't hate them. On the other hand, a hypocrite would watch Top Gear and laugh, absorb their opinions, espouse them and repeat them-until they hit too close to home and the jokes were at the expense of something that they believed in. TG is wrong, often. If it only offends your sensibilities when it's spouting criticism of Tesla, but you don't care when they dump on, let's say, Porsche, you are very insecure and a hypocrite and have a lot of gall calling someone who doesn't blindly share your rage, a shill. It's your right, but it's a rather boorish and pathetic way to express yourself. It wreaks of mob mentality and conspiracy theorist paranoia. Who really believes there are actual shills lurking on every board? Disagreeing with a person does not make them, or you, a shill.

You act pretty much exactly as shill, trying to mitigate the fact that TG lied, fabricated scenes and the fact that their reviews have quite a big impact on common people opinions. That's exactly what I would expect TG shill to do.

Timo, When did I become like a shill. I tought I had stayed on the shilless side of the fence on this one. Pleae point out to me when I became like a shill. You may have me mixed up with someone else on this one but if not please tell me where it appeared I might be even somewhat of a shill. I thought I was with you guys on this one.

Some people you just can't reach. I have called the TG review a hatchet job and very disappointing. I have voiced my feelings on many negative aspects of the show. Still you say: "You act pretty much exactly as shill, trying to mitigate the fact that TG lied, fabricated scenes and the fact that their reviews have quite a big impact on common people opinions. That's exactly what I would expect TG shill to do." HOW IS THAT A FACT? PROVE IT! That's your opinion. I don't agree 100% with you, so you call me a shill. What is your problem? Do you have a reading deficiency? Are you just so egomaniacal that you presume to speak for the common people and your word is fact because you say it is? You are an ignorant, hysterical, presumptuous hate monger who presumes to speak for "the common people. Who made you the spokesperson? I'm a pretty average person. I can only speak for myself but I don't believe their reviews. I guess if I did believe TG I wouldn't qualify as a shill by your definition. Seems illogical. Lucky thing you are here to protect the ignorant, common lemmings who believe whatever Top Gear feeds them. Why don't you try supporting your facts instead of resorting to name calling? I guess I'm naive for believing that this forum is meant for the sharing of ideas and opinions, even if they don't all agree. It's clearly a bully pulpit for childish, closed minded, fragile, neurotics like you. Your posts are full of ridiculous, imaginary scripts for a TG Tesla review. Are you bucking for a job there? That's what a shill would do. Nice try at drawing the attention away from your own shilling by pointing the finger at others. It's a veritable witch hunt. OBTW, the OP describes Tesla and Top Gear as "Quite possibly my two favorite things." OH NOW, HE LIKES TOP GEAR. HE MUST BE A SHILL. BURN HIM.

There are cases where car sales have gone down after TG reviews. They have large customer base and people take them seriously. I need to correct peoples wrong assumptions that they have got from TG fairly often, especially for Roadster. People just take it seriously. That's just plain fact.

Sure there are some that don't take anything seriously, and some that know better but that is minority of people. General rule when dealing with common people is that they are ignorant and easily affected by media.

Just caught this in your message: "Your posts are full of ridiculous, imaginary scripts for a TG Tesla review."

I have not posted any "ridiculous, imaginary scripts for a TG Tesla review". When I referred the actual review everything I have said were facts. If you mean that imaginary TG Ferrari review, that was supposed to be analogy of how bad that Roadster review was. Anybody should have understood that.

Timo, I still think you possibly have me mixed up with someone else. Please send post addressed to me so it will help me to understand where I seemed to be a shill. I am afraid I didn't quite understand the statement "Lush is like crossbreed between searcher and earlier shills". I must have left a wrong impression somewhere along the way, please let me know. You know I am not offended actually kind of amusing but check and see if maybe you have me confused with someone else here. Many thanks, searcher

@searcher, I don't think that you are a shill, Lush writing style just looks a lot like yours, in a degree that I had a thought that you are using "Lush" as sock puppet to get some people to write to you.

Timo, well I feel better,thanks for the reply. No Lush is another person. But thanks for comparing our writing styles because Lush is a pretty articulate lad, you will have to give him or her that. I thoght you might have been considering the somewhat long post I am inclined to do was the comparison you were making.

I do agree that this is an emerging company and the leader, and relatively small company, no time to be getting put down by a few people whose biggest defense by pro TG people is "they are not really serious , they just kid around a lot". Poor argument as a lot of hateful, meant to harm damage, gets under the radar with the "just kidding" defense. Just kidding my BLEEP. You know this happens in interpersonal relationships and apparently in corporate relations to. Tesla's just to small right now to just brush this off. If they were a giant company maybe they could more easily just blow the TG stuff off. But they are not that big yet and they were perfectly right to respond as they did. I see only one win, win, for both companies as I have outlined roughly in a previous post.

Again thanks for the response but I will have to admit Lush is far more convincing and articulate than I. Think I need to send post to lush, clash of similar styles might be interesting huh?

Aw, the barrage of insults that a couple of sentences provoked!!! Must have hit a nerve.

Hey Lush1, what compelled you to declare "I'm an American"?

You NEVER, EVER trust anyone like Clarkson. Tesla has no reason for allowing those BBC boobs to get ahold of one of their Model S vehicles. If the lawsuit goes according to Hoyle, they should be able to get an injunction against TopGear. TopGear is very similar to those other British media and have about the same attitude towards truthfulness.

@ mnx...bull...TV shows that honestly review vehicles are popular and watched by many seeking automotive information...you may call yourself an entertainment show, but that does not give you the right to lie & misrepresent a party's product.

@ Kallisman...you're not understanding what I am saying Sir...of course as you have described, such a contract forbiding a Model S owner from lending their vehicle to TG would be absurd and unenforceable...I am only referring to TM refusing to furnish a Model S to TG for one of their dubious "reviews" (if requested to do so.)

1. TG will try to crush the Model S to prove their BBC anti-electric car bureaucratic point.

2. They will realize the Model S is dynamite and will try to ignore it as long as possible.

Same thing happened to wise guy Jim Cramer (Mad Money) that dissed the company saying they will quickly fall below their IPO and it's terrible investment... blah blah blah... yeah, it's been almost a year and they're still 50%+ above IPO level.

Instead of insulting Tesla they need to get out to Silicon Valley and tour the factory, see what they are really about. Educate themselves as to who Elon Musk is and what he's accomplished as a kid in South Africa (IBM software), Zip2, X.com (PayPal), SpaceX and then open their mouths.

I don't see why we care what a bunch of dunces (or blokes, for our friends across the Atlantic) really think about anything progressive. The moment I get blowback from any of them I'm quick to remind them that this was the same group that promoted British Leland and the Maestro in the '80s has advanced technology.

If the world listened to them progress would never have taken place. Do what I do: tune them out.

Tiebreaker, I only mentioned "I'm an American" to illustrate one facet of how my point of view is formed and that geographically, it's unlikely that I would have an affiliation with the BBC. Nothing jingoistic or sinister about it. Not bragging or saying my nationality makes me better or worse than any other person. We all live on the same planet and borders just divide us, but this isn't a sociology forum. It's just that TG has been a super popular show in Brittan for many, many years. It's relatively new to most of us yanks. A few years ago my then teenage son turned me on to Top Gear by showing me a torrent he downloaded of the episode debuting the Veyron. TG wasn't widely available on American TV then. It only came to my provider, Direct TV, recently on BBC America so it's likely that most Americans still have little or no awareness of the show.

Timo, when are you saying what you believe and when are you lying? Here you call me a shill for having faith that people are mostly smart enough to think for themselves and expressing my opinion that some here are over reacting and fearing that a crappy review of the Roadster by a scripted entertainment show will doom Tesla. I was just reading this page http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/how-we-see-it-top-gear-lawsuit and was surprised to see the position you took there. You mirrored nearly all my sentiments then. It stands in stark contrast to the vitriol and insults you slung at me on this thread. Are you having trouble keeping your stories straight, or does Tiebreaker (who could only summon this emoticon :-P as his parting shot) have his hand up your behind and is working your mouth? In case you forgot, here's what you said on April 9th, a week before you flamed me here:

"there's no such thing as bad publicity" in this case might be right.

- TG is very known to general public.
- EV:s have bad reputation
- TM is suing TG for giving Roadster bad review.

Outcomes:

1) person that looks TG, doesn't know about not EV:s hears about this lawsuit: looks out what is this fuss about Roadster: more publicity, person gets knowledge that EV:s are not just golf carts.

2) person knows about EV:s, looks TG, but doesn't really trust about their capabilities of giving fair test: Pretty much no change. Might think this lawsuit is just major waste of time, "but who cares?"

3) Person doesn't look TG or know about EV:s, hears about lawsuit. Learns out what this fuss is about: more publicity, person gets knowledge that EV:s are not just golf carts. TG might get another viewer. Or not.

4) teeny weeny minority of peoples that either religiously trust TG start hating TM and vice versa.

I think this is good for both, if they manage to make it real media circus, everybody benefits from it."

So, you agreed with me before you disagreed. Why don't you worry about your own comments instead of flaming others for theirs? Are you a hypocrite or just a shallow loudmouth who jumps on the latest bandwagon? You post on the forum a lot and have many good things to say. If you want to be credible, why don't you stick with trying to be informative instead of trying to prove your the smartest guy on the board and stooping to attacks on those who don't follow you like lemmings? Those that can keep up with your fluid opinions that is.
That's my final word on these unprovoked personal attacks. I've wasted enough energy responding to childish, ego driven insults. It was my first flaming so I went with it and found it edifying, but I'm going back to looking for useful information, trying to learn things I don't know and exercising my right to have my own opinions, be they right or wrong. It's a great forum over all. We won't all agree on everything, but we all love Tesla. And yes, I will proudly accept the mantle of a shill for Tesla, should someone choose to confer it upon me.

How about scolding each other back in forth in a tedious and useless battle, does anyone have any more up to date information regarding the lawsuit? What progress has been made? Any insider information at all?

@msiano17

You are absolutely right. Apologies to all for hijacking the thread. Would have used PM but this board doesn't have it. I'll ignore any detractors henceforth. It was the first time I was ever blasted on-line for expressing my opinion. I now know where it goes and have learned that it's a complete waste of time for everybody. I'm secure enough not to suffer any hurt feelings or trauma when an anonymous person feels violated by my opinions as an anonymous person on a forum read by anonymous persons. Unless someone was posting racist or other hate speech, I cannot fathom why someone would feel compelled to react to an opinion different from their own with fury, vitriol and name calling. It's antithetical to being persuasive or convincing. If everybody had identical opinions there would be no exchange of ideas and topics would have zero replies.

@Lush

You are absolutely correct.

@Timo

You have some really great things to say on this forum, let's keep that up and cut down on the flaming!

@t7n7

Amen. Timo does indeed have many good things to add and I enjoy reading his posts. We CAN all get along. After all, with few exceptions, everybody here shares a passion for Tesla. In-fighting won't convince the EV detractors of Tesla's greatness. I lost sight of that, but I'm back on the right path.

Peace,
Lush1

@Lush1, thank you for the kind words. I hope you save your posts and show them to your grandchildren.

I am sure you will have a lot of fun in your Model S.

Respectfully
Tiebreaker

:-P

@Tiebreaker

I imagine you were kidding about saving the posts for posterity, but it's actually a good idea. I've never engaged in an on-line p*ssing contest, but I learned how futile it is and that would be worth passing on to others and to younger generations.

Cheers

:-P

I think top gear has no business looking into Elon Musk and the corporation that is Tesla. They are a car ahow. They will (hopefully) review the model s, and if you expect them to be civil and forgiving, forget it... They will probably begin their script by saying "the last time we tried one of these teslas, it broke and we got sued! But... [Jeremy] THEY HAVE A NEW ONE!!!"

And then you will hear some good and some bad, and in the end they will form their own opinion, but they have always been negative toward hybrids, EV... They will be only lukewarm at best over the model s. They will belittle the 0-60 time and state that [this and that] are "awkward and unusable"

In the end, though, in an entertaining way, they do tell you some good things and some bad...

In the roadster "review" they were impressed with the acceleration!! POSITIVE!
He said "this is a fun little car!" or something like that...

Then I don't doubt they had problems, because they were doing non-stop power slides and who has done that with their roadster? Anyone? I just think it probably WOULD OVERHEAT!!! I would guess a lot of the cars they test have very bad issues, some even are having blowouts with BRAND NEW TIRES!!

They test these cars in EXTREME PERFORMANCE SCENARIOS! Not all cars would do well...

In the end, they have something good and bad to say about EVERY CAR!!

This is totally fictional, however, because they take these great cars like Ferrari and Nissan GT-R and say "who would put the window switch here?" or "u need an electrical engineering degree to operate the sat nav!". And bash these brilliant cars based on stupid stuff, but it is factual in a way...

Actually, Ferrari is bad example, because they always love Ferrari, Aston Martin, jaguar, and always hate hybrid, EV, American...

But I wouldn't actually say they were dishonest, I think they just accentuated the negative of tesla, but they also had good things to say just not as loudly as the negative!!


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