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Battery tech

Hello all.

Just read from autobloggreen about some new battery manufacturer called "Planar Energy". (http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/27/planar-energy-to-begin-small-scale-...)

They seem to have tech for pretty good Wh/kg batteries. From one of their pdf (http://www.planarenergy.com/Press%20Releases/Technology%20Review_%20Safe...)

"One of them combines lithium manganese oxide with other ions, and operates at about three to five volts with a charge capacity of 200 milliamp hours per gram."

Calculating that as 3.5V * 200mAh/g you get 700mWh/g or 700Wh/kg. to put that in right context: Roadster battery: 450kg. Drop 30% off as supporting structure: 315kg battery * 700 = 220.500kWh battery. Nearly four times as much as current tech is. That would allow roadster to go 200 * 4 = 800 miles with one charge.

let's do it

I wonder if Tesla would be interested in an idea that would, Absolutely guarantee, that Tesla would be around for twenty years. People would choose Tesla over any other brand. At least until the other brands caught up. And the idea would mean the end of Petroleum as the basis for propelling vehicles. Tesla could do for the automotive industry, what cell phones did for the communication industry. (tiaseafm@charter.net)

taximan;
You'll have to engineer your own direct contact with TeslaMotors. The previous forums were frequented by all sorts of people with brilliant ideas for them, which generally turned out to be unphysical ideas for free energy or the like. AKA loons.

Timo;
Thx; another multiplier for LiIon tech! And here's a report on the use of graphene within batteries to expedite ion and current movement:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/201383/graphene_cuts_battery_recharge_tim...

BTW, really hate the loss of all the tech refs etc. embedded in the previous fora. The new broom has been altogether too sweeping, IMO.

I would like to see Tesla help drive forward battery technology for electric vehichles by combining the best available technologies to extend the distance and minimize charging time which are both perceived drawbacks to EV's. To this end I submit two weblinks of technologies that appear ready for prime time. #1 nanowire technology to provide 10x the current from existing lithium batteries. I have read that there are several factories already pruducing this breakthrough in Michigan & China and that BMW Mini has already contracted to use them. http://www.blog.thesietch.org/2008/02/21/nanowire-batteries-will-kick-th... #2 the use of super capacitors to better power manage sudden acceleration which drains most batteries and better recover energy in egenerative braking systems. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor. I realize tesla is not a battery manufacturer but technologies appear to be off the shelf and ready for prime time. Why not use them now?

I have heard that these batteries give off dangerously hight EMF radiation and wondered if anyone knew or has tested the levels of TESLA's car batteries.....also, could a lead barrier or casing be made to protect passengers from long term exposure?

how long does it take for approval of a thread reply?

Tesla needs to permanently alleviate all these battery fears that people love to disseminate. The big fear is that as soon as you pay $20k-$35k for your battery, something 3x better will come out next year.

Tesla needs to release a "Battery Mission Statement" that reads something like this......All new Tesla batteries will fit into the existing vehicles. All new Tesla batteries will be offered to existing customers with older batteries or batteries with smaller capacities for a substantially reduced upgrade charge, based on the age and condition of them. A nice graph showing the exact amounts would be easy too, as they don't really have too many different batteries to begin with.

Who really cares what battey makers do? I'm covered!!!!

untesla, batteries cannot produce EMF radiation. They only produce a static DC potential.

Of course the car's power electronics, like any electronic gadget, will generate electromagnetic fields at some level. That said, the car isn't a microwave oven! It's not going to produce anything even remotely hazardous.

Hi guys,

Just want to share about my idea.mileage/range for electric car is very important. My idea is to install wind turbine, wind turbine or rotary device that extracts energy from the wind, so it can charge the battery while car on moving . My idea is to place the wind turbine under the hood without sacrificing the beauty of the car.We can place two battery pack. battery pack (A) is charged by the wind turbine while the car moving, in the other hand, another battery pack (B) uses for car propulsion. once the propulsion battery pack (A) almost finish, electrical devices automatically change the battery to battery pack (B)so the car can keep on moving without stop or jerk. battery pack (A) continue charged by wind turbine. This cycle of battery charging will make electric cars go more than 1000km without charging/or single charge.Hope this idea will help u all. thank you.

kumar palani,
go green.

Kumar,

I'm sorry, but your idea reminds me of cartoons I used to watch. A character would be in a sailboat, and he would get the boat to move forward by blowing onto the sail. In real world physics, that doesn't work.

My suspicion is that your turbine will add to the wind resistance of your vehicle. So you will only be capturing the energy you lose from the increased wind resistance.

kumar5750, that's called a "perpetual motion machine", which violates the known laws of physics.

untesla, the EMF has been measured in a Roadster. I don't remember the exact number, but it was way less than many common household appliances.

I couldn't get the button to work to create a new topic, but I have a thought on charging. We have all heard about the challenges of persons living in multi-use buildings (apartments, condos, lofts, etc.) without garages or without electric in their parking garage. I'm one of those people, but I'm not an engineer. So I don't know if this is even possible, but what if there were a portable charger? I'm thinking of something that is the size of a briefcase that would detach when the vehicle is not in use. It could be taken inside a person's home, office, hotel, or wherever else there is an available 110V connection (or whatever is standard in your country). It would be charged, then reconnected to the vehicle for more driving. Or, it could be 2 "briefcase batteries" and a person would need to charge 1 for x number of miles or both for 2x number of miles.

Just a thought... again, I'm not sure if this is even possible.

fn;
Sorry, TANSTAAFL.

When is Tesla going to switch to large format batteries ?
I would hope they are working up proto types ask we speak.
I can't believe having 6700+ batteries to manage is the proper way to go (KISS).

skipwkk;
You may be right, but the upside to small units is that a failure of one has a tiny effect.

Slightly OT, but the "New Topic" function is busted:

SF is putting up some free charging posts around the city. Don't know if it's just civic promotion, or a clean air initiative.

http://theenergycollective.com/toddwoody/41184/air-pollution-agency-pay-...

fnfargento, more batteries is not the answer. Batteries = weight. Weight is the enemy of performance.

John;
He's way more confused than that. He wants to charge Battery B while running on Battery A, and vice versa, using the motor as a generator. One more free energy loon.

Kumar's idea of a wind turbine on vehicles isn't terrible.
We currently use wind to cool radiators
but what about the stronger forces of wind our cars come in contact with when we're driving at high speeds?
Seems wasted that we're not using the force to 'drive' auxiliary motors.
One problem I see is the price per output efficieny.
You'll have to consider the aggregate output of X number of installed turbines and the price.

Overall, what does Tesla think?

Isn't Telsa's goal to make there cars aerodynamic...so the air goes around the car? The last thing you want to do is "catch" the wind.
Combine the added weight of a wind turbine, and the losses associated with wind resistance, and I'm sure it equals a net loss.

The wind turbine idea is thinking outside of the box, but unfortunately, it's a perpetual motion machine and will not work. You still have resistance losses from the wind, at most it will not do anything, and at worst will decrease the range dramatically.

What we could do is place wind turbines on major highways or other busy roads on the side of the road so the draft of the cars and trucks move the turbines. Possibly use the helix turbines since they thrive in turbulent conditions

In theory if it could be coupled with wireless energy transfer (one of the inventions the original Nikola Tesla worked on, and i believe Intel managed to get 75% efficiency in 2009), that could solve the problem- not really "free energy", just recovering waste energy and sending it back to the cars or grid. Unfortunately wireless energy transfer is still in its infancy, so the most viable option would be to send it back to the grid

Hello, long time since I follow their progress online and I can only congratulate him on his initiative and effort they have made to get where they are, because I suppose they had to overcome many pitfalls of the most diverse nature. But my statement is just to ask why the S model is not added a solar panel, however small, not to move the car, but to enhance the autonomy and "never reach zero charge", although it is a wonder car, just 45 minutes to 3 hrs. is a really long time if we consider that to fill a pond are 10 '. So while we wait 45 minutes, at least we know that we charge for many miles.

Sorry, but its theme is exciting, what do you think the use of piezoelectric ceramics in suspension?

Efficiency is more then just battery technology, some years ago I invented an electronic circuit to measure electrical signal ratios, later patent. One application of this technology was traction control, with respect to drive and driven, as in wheel contact to road or stator and field of electric motor. In either case, traction is the unity between the drive and driven. Efficiency is the measure of power applied versus energy required, and achieved through modulation, and prolonged by regenerative power. All factors contribute to efficiency and include weight, aerodynamics, traction efficiency, battery capacity, and regenerative power.

Rodrigo;
No, all day with the whole roof as a solar collector would only provide a few miles. It's costly and pointless.

Here's a new one: virus cathodes, with 10X the capacity of graphite ones.
http://news.discovery.com/tech/virus-built-batteries.html

Option for regenerative power application,

There are various methods to increase efficiency, one alternative is to separate the power sources used by motor/drive and standard systems. Many standard systems used in common automobiles and trucks operate from 12VDC sources, and include lighting both interior and exterior, instrumentation, power seating, radio, heat and cool, amongst others. An alternative is having two power sources, one primary for motor/drive and secondary for standard systems. These standard systems can operate from Generator and 12VDC supply, and under certain conditions battery charged using solar energy as well. This can be implemented by operating standard systems from primary battery until vehicles forward motion is constant (highway and other), once controller senses this condition, it can electrically switch standard systems to Generator and 12VDC source. The Generator, (somewhat like alternator) can be coupled to rotating shaft or built within wheel for charging battery and power to standard systems. Solar Cell Roof can be applied as another source for charging the 12VDC battery given certain conditions. It’s feasible with smaller battery, the standard systems can be switched from primary to secondary whenever power level is adequate, controller seeks best solution. There’s more detail then stated above, this is basic description. I would implement a permanent magnet generator using one or more wheels, to reduce frictional components.

@DanAderhold; your proposition to drive ancillary systems with generator just causes more losses than driving them directly from battery pack.

Now: battery -> motor & ancillary systems
Your: battery -> motor -> generator -> ancillary systems.

With every conversion there are losses. Your suggestion added one conversion and energy still comes from same battery pack. And your system would affect car performance because that generator would work as brake that switches on and off without driver knowing when that happens.

Brian H,

That’s an interesting article, as for developing automotive frameworks into battery platforms. This would disperse cell area more equal amongst the chassis and frameworks, and suspect technology feasible in near future. Maybe application is chassis and framework for battery platform, and body as energy collector. But electric motor technology needs improved as well, applying superconductive materials to reduce size and minimize thermal loses, for equal magnetic drive distribution.

I am saying something without giving details, and it's difficult at times.


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