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Delayed charge times after software update?

Our Model S update happened a couple days ago. I've been wanting to set the charge time but didn't see that in this update. Am I missing it or did that feature not make it into the latest update?

Our electric rate is $0.03 after midnight, so I'm motivated to take advantage of the cheaper juice but don't want to stay up late to plug in the charger!

Both feet off the pedals sounds creepy.

;p Sorry!

I do see the viewpoint now of those wanting creep, and there's certainly no harm in having that as an option.

But I still can't help but think: did those first adopters of automobiles ask Henry Ford to include the smell of horse crap in their car? Or beg him to give it more of a "galloping" sensation while driving? Because that's what they were used to.

Manual transition cars don't have creep and society got along just fine with out it, even on steep hills in San Francisco. If we could move our two feet fast enough to handle those hills I'm sure that moving only one will not be insurmountable. However we know it's an option, so turn it on if you want it.

I'm leaving regen on the accelerator and will leave creep off for 3 months to see how it goes.

@Beaker | OCTOBER 5, 2012: Manual transition cars don't have creep and society got along just fine with out it, even on steep hills in San Francisco. If we could move our two feet fast enough to handle those hills I'm sure that moving only one will not be insurmountable.

The way I learned to start moving up a steep hill in a manual transmission car was to also use the hand brake. The Model S does not have a hand control for the brake.

Southern California Edison time of use (TOU) rates start at 9 PM. When the 2011 Volt had timer problems, I just manually plugged in the J1772 charge handle after 9 at night. Since their TOU rates last until 12 noon, an early 4 hour morning charge worked as well.

IMHO, perhaps the vehicle software will get the upgrade IF Model S sends a command to start and stop the High Power Wall Connector.

Hill hold is not the same as creep.

+1 Brian

Not that I think there is anything wrong having either as options.

@tesla.mrspaghet

My trip is 66 miles in the LEAF. I do it, but the traffic helps my range. I use the eVgo quick chargers if I am making any extra trips.

I am punishing the pack though. 26k miles in 16 months, down two capacity bars. 20 months left on the lease, so in about a year I will need you to take my wife out for a spin in the S so I can seal the deal on a reservation. I checked with the store a month ago, they won't be able to give test drives in Texas because of the dealer laws :(

On Topic, I agree that Hill Hold is the important feature to add for safety. Creep is not for me.

@Alex K

Exactly how I was taught, don't want to burn up the clutch by starting while rolling backwards.

@kalikgod: Deal! I'll take you both out once I take delivery (anticipating June/July). As I said in another thread - I'll be looking for reasons to drive this car :)

No test drives? Hm, I took a test drive when the Get Amped tour came to the Galleria. I wonder why that was an exception...

I agree with the hill hold feature, not sure exactly how it would be implemented though. And I hope the driver will be able to enable/disable all such options as creep & hill hold according to their preference.

@tesla.mrspaghet

Awesome. I am looking forward to seeing one in the wild.

Get Amped was a "special event" so dealer laws did not apply.

GB already confirmed Creep would be user selectable. I would be very suprised if Hill Hold would not be the same.

@kalikgod

We need to hit Twin Peaks, now that you tipped me off to the EV parking spots on the other side of the fence :)

To creep or not to creep?

At first glance, it's easy to think of creep as an unwanted artifact of the automatic transmission of an ICE car and dismiss it as useless in a modern electric car. The temptation is to toss it out along with the 'time to change your oil' sticker and the smog check. And the argument that it is 'what people are used to' makes it seem even more undesirable.

I will argue that 'creep' is useful on its own merits.

The question can be put this way: Is it better to have the drivetrain of the car apply torque to push the car forward at a slow (walking) speed when the car is in 'drive' and the accelerator is not depressed?

Here is a list of the advantages of creep as I see them:

- better speed control in traffic and while parking
- makes it obvious you are in 'drive'
- no rollback on hills

First, the situation when driving in traffic with creep. When you are stopped in traffic, you want to make sure you stay stopped. You do this by keeping your foot on the brake. If traffic suddenly clears up, you switch to the accelerator and you don't notice the short-lived creep between brake and accelerator. If the car in front of you moves enough that you feel that you should 'catch up', you can just let off the brake a little (not all the way) and the car will creep up closer to the other car at a comfortable speed. Think about it. You let off the brake just enough to allow the car to roll forward a little, and then you push it back down. The creep allows you to use brake feel to precisely control your speed with a single pedal under conditions when that control is critical. While regen allows for one pedal high speed driving, creep allows for one pedal low speed driving.

Did you see the first Model S being delivered? Steve Jurvetson was trying to maneuver inside the factory with hundreds of Tesla employees surrounding him. He didn't have an easy time because of the above two pedal control scenario. He had to quickly switch from accelerator to brake.

Think about the V8, power-brake-having boats of yesteryear. I had a 1969 Lincoln Continental. Imagine sitting in traffic with that power brake pressed all the way down to the floor without having creep. The car in front inches forward. You take your foot off the brake, which rises a few inches as you let off. Now you press the 'gas' pedal to spool up that V8 until the car starts moving. It starts moving suddenly as the engine gets that huge flywheel spinning. As soon as you start moving, you have to take your foot off the 'gas'. Now you are a half second from hitting the car in front of you. You had better get back on the brake - fast! You lift your foot from the gas and press the brake pedal which makes a hissing sound as you slam it to the floor. It takes some time for the pedal-to-slowdown control with those power brakes. Creep turns this entire process into the simple act of softening up the pressure on the brake momentarily.

This one pedal advantage is just as useful while parking. You keep your foot on the brake and allow the car to ease into the space. You might stop and decide you can move forward a few more inches. At this point, do you really want to take your foot off the brake? With creep, you just have to ease up on the brake for a quarter second and you have moved by a few inches.

Another advantage is that you are very aware when the car is in 'drive'. In an automatic, when you stop the car and you are still in drive, you have to keep your foot on the brake, or the car will start moving. When you put the car in 'park' you can feel that the car is no longer trying to move, and you take your foot off the brake and relax. Without creep, you might stop the car, take your foot off the brake and forget that you're still in drive. At some later time, if you press the accelerator, you will get a surprise when the car takes off. The car cannot warn you that you are still (or again) in drive - it doesn't know you are not sitting at a red light.

Another advantage with creep is that if you stop on a hill, it prevents you from rolling backward when you let off the brake to put your foot on the accelerator.

So lets forget about automatic transmissions, flywheels, and being stuck with the QWERTY keyboard because everyone's used to it - and embrace the new: low-speed-single-pedal-control-anti-rollback-and-gear-reminder feature. That's LSSPCARAGRF for you military types.

... Or we could just call it 'creep'.

Creep and hill hold are two separate features. Don't count on creep to keep you from rolling backward on hills. If the incline is steeper than the strength of the "creep" you still start to roll backwards.

The rest of your message makes sense, though.

@EcLectric

I understand where you are coming from, but keep in mind the precision of an electric motor is much greater than an ICE. Some of those speed control concerns just won't be an issue with the S.

@tesla.mrspaghet

Sounds good. Send me a note, my user name here @gmail.

kalikgod

It's really about the delay time between accelerating and decelerating. Although some of the delays that are inherent in a V8 ICE car don't exist in a Tesla, the control advantages of creep are still valid. The critical time is the delay between the moment you realize you are moving fast enough, and the time you are able to stop. If you have to take your foot off the accelerator and press the brake, it's too much time when you are going slowly close to other cars. The brakes on the Model S are just like brakes on any other car, and there is some travel of the pedal before the car begins to slow. At slow speeds, the acceleration and braking times are small, so the pedal to pedal time becomes significant.

If the torque applied when stopped facing uphill were the same as that used for normal creep functionality, perhaps the car would still roll back (though not as fast). It seems to me that any 'hill holding' function would be so closely related to creep as to be part of the same system. Up to a point, the creep torque could be increased when the brake is released to prevent the car from rolling backward.

I found some patents online to remove creep in automatic transmission cars, but I've never seen any implemented. I think there's a good reason for that.

A well thought out 'acceleration control system' can be yet another advantage of electric cars.

@EcLectric | OCTOBER 6, 2012: It seems to me that any 'hill holding' function would be so closely related to creep as to be part of the same system. Up to a point, the creep torque could be increased when the brake is released to prevent the car from rolling backward.

The last several cars that I've had that have hill hold capability have used the brake to accomplish this (Prius, Lexus, Porsche, Audi). Once the cars have detected that they are at an incline and the foot brake applied, the parking brake is engaged and a light indicates that the car is in hold mode. When you remove your foot off the brake, the car stays in hold mode until the accelerator is depressed and the car has sufficient torque to overcome the incline. I'm sure Tesla will implement it the same way using the electrically actuated parking brake.

I have a question related to the current conversation, if not the original topic...

With the current Model S behavior, what does it do if while stopped you left it in drive and just opened the door and got out? I assume it wouldn't move because it doesn't creep (yet) but would it put itself into park and turn off? Without creep someone, use to the ICE behavior, could potentially do that without realizing it.

I'm P4035 so it will be a while for me to test such things.

IN regarding timers.,
You can purchase a Little BOX timer. I have one on my swimming pool filter outlet. They are relatively cheap and are perfectly safe.

They are available in 120v or 220 v

@mrjjp - if you read earlier in this thread you'll see there's already a link to that type of timer, good for 40A

Alex K

That sounds much simpler for the hill holding case. I think you are right - if they are already electronically controlling the parking brake, it would be easy to use it for hill holding. I still think creep is worthwhile for the other two reasons.

I wonder if you could switch the accelerator from torque adjustment to speed adjustment for very low "parking" speeds. That would make parking in steep hills a lot easier: car goes exactly the speed you want it to go regardless of hill inclination. Something you plain could not have in ICE car. Some sort of "parking mode".

The CREEP feature is important. I drove my tesla from the factory, and had not realized that the CREEP was OFF. Right outside at a stop light (within 5 minutes from the factory), the incline was ever so slight, but with the quiet interior and other adjacent traffic, the vehicle rolled backwards into the car behind me. It was less than 2mph, and the car behind also had a distracted driver, so it is a MUST for people who are used to vehicles that creep forward when in Drive and stopped at a stop light.

Venkatrangan59

Is your Tesla Okay??? I agree about the creep on. I picked up my Tesla at the factory also and while we were reviewing the car I verified that the creep feature was on and it wasn't. I know me it was a must for me.

Seems this thread is way off topic, but what the heck. After three months I just turned creep off. At the moment I'm liking no creep. Let's me do even more 1 foot driving than before. Makes it a bit more difficult to get into my garage - used to use the brake to hold against creep to nudge into the right spot - but other than that I like it.

...even more one pedal driving...


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