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Fair Price for used MS Signature Performance?

Hi all,

I have the chance to buy a used MS Signature Performance.
It has about 10k miles on the clock and was registered last December.
Car is clean and in very good condition.

I think the one non standard extra was the sound/stereo package. Everything else is standard 85kw battery, sun roof, twin chargers, premium paint, air suspension, tech package, 21" rims.

So what would a fair price for the car look like?
I guess it is fair to compare with a 85P as there is now only a 6 week wait period for new with tax credit.

Thanks for your help

$110,000.00 (or more depending if it has an extended warrantee, service plan, and the condition of the tires).

I disagree. At the very least, you should use the same formula TM uses. Deduct $.50 per mile plus 1% of lurch price for each month of age. That would come to a roughly $14k off of MSRP. Lets remember that you're losing around $10k in credits by not buying new. Signature or no signature, for $110k, you could buy a P85+ fully loaded with every conceivable option when taking the tax credits into consideration.

This is a tough one. There should definitely be a premium for a Sig. In 20-25 yrs, a sig P85 will be much more valuable than a 2013 P85+. Also, 10,000 miles means a lot less to an EV than an ICE vehicle. I think a fair price is somewhere between a brand new P85 and a P85+. But it is very hard to know.

OK Thanks for the input, let me take a shot at a valuation using the info given:

Current brice after tax credit for a 85kw Performance with the same specs is $102k
Actually the tax credit in Colorado is $13.5k rather than the standard $7.5k so deduct another $6k in my case. To have the base price at $96k

With 10k miles being worth $0.5/mile that is a discount of $5k
Then comes the 1% for each month of age.. so by the time the deal is done it is another $10k

Now my attempt to value the signature premium (that might or might not transpire in 20-30 years)
Let say that the premium in 20 years is $20k. So one would need to discount that figure let say with a conservative lending rate of 5%. That reduces that signature premium to a cash value (NPV) of $4.6k

So at the moment we are at:
$96k base price
-$5k milage
-$10k time value
+$4.6k Signature NPV value
================
$ 85.6k

So now to a theoretical additional question. What is the value of the remaining warranty. Lets assume the car came without the factory warranty for some reason. What do you guys thing that warranty is worth? My guess is $10k or something like that.

Thanks for your help.... hopefully soon a Tesla MS owner...

Honestly the value of the car is worth what the market is ready to pay for. If the car is hot, it will have a higher resale value. If the car doesn't move, you have to lower the price until someone takes. There's no formula to work this out. You can only buy it for the lowest amount he is willing to lose on the car.

@nsxpowered
We are trying to come up with a fair value. He wants to sell to me, I want to buy. So between friends we are trying to come up with a fair price.

In that regards the value of the warranty would also be interesting.. anybody any opinion?

Warranty is part of the value. My guess would be around $90K , the friend pricing.

I very much doubt the Signature will be worth $20K more in 20 years. I would guess something closer to zero.

I would buy a new P85, which is likely to be better built and include the rolling improvements that have been made since the Signature was produced.

eelton has it spot on!
$20k extra for the Signature in 20 years? Not even close. Perhaps if you were buying the very first Signature made, yes. In just a few years or even less, you'll likely see these cars trading at virtually no premium. People in the know will come to realize that the early produced cars have a few more bugs in them (warping hood, condensation, battery, pano roof, misaligned door trims, etc) which will further limit their resale potential.
With $13.5k available, I would get a loaded P85+ and still only be looking at about $100k net price before tax.
You'll pay less for a better car with 10,000 fewer miles on it and is brand new production.
You'll likely only end up waiting for it 4-6 weeks at the rate they're cranking them out at the factory. Don't fall for they hype. There are always others out there looking to create a market for something that isn't there.

@CalabasasKid

OK, so lets say the Signatures are flat with the performance model (so the novelty value compensates for the early bugs lets say)

So then the question is what the used car value is for such car. The above calculation would hint at $80k

@all
Now why I am asking about the warranty. Lets say the car had a voided warranty for some reason I can not reveal. The car is completely OK, just the terms of the warranty agreement were broken and I can not rely on the warranty still being honored.

What discount would that warrant? (for a lack of a better term)

I don't know about the rest of you, however, after driving a standard production loaner MS, (while my P85 Sig is in for its 12.5k service), I feel like I actually own a slightly better MS than the typical newer production P85's.

Either way, at this point-in-time, a Signature MS is only worth what a buyer is willing to pay, and the owner is willing to lose (remember, most had to fork out $40k up-front for as long a two years, before we even saw what the final result would be).

i think any work that voids the warranty also removes a lot of the novelty value of having a stock original Model S. Imagine the contrast between the value of a stock Model T vs one that was modified by the original owner.

Sent from my Model S.

Tesla claims that they will more or less guarantee than a MS will be worth e same in resale value as a Mercedes S class. So why not look at what a comparable S class will go for and go from there?

@EcLectric

I understand, in this case it has nothing to do with the appearance. Still 100% original from the look and feel. Still the warranty is most likely voided.

That is as much as I can say.

Personally, I would not buy an MS with voided waranty under any cirumstance. Tesla service is very expensive ($150/hr labor) and there is no other option for service. A fault in the battery and you could be out $40k. If you like to live dangerously, half price might be worth the risk, but not for me.

Signature Red and/or white leather should add value. Everything original may help future value. Wheels and battery can always be replaced or swapped if "used."

If, between friends, you mean that you're buying it from friend, I would not buy it with a voided warranty, unless there was a significant reduction from the new car price that meant the difference between your affording an MS or driving an ICE.

I think the friendship risk of something going wrong is not worth it.

On the other hand, if the discount is big enough and this is your only way to afford an MS, you should go for it. You can always find another friend, but who wants to drive an ICE?

+1 mjs

TESLA SERVICE LABOR RATE IS $200/HR

@markapeterman
I think the biggest risk is the battery indeed. But is the replacement cost not USD 12k or so...?

@mjs
I agree its a risk. I agree there should be a significant discount.
I am willing to take the risk to get into a MS. I have my own opinion on what the discount should be... I just wanted to know what other people perceive the value to be. You state SIGNIFICANT, can you quantify that?

Pretty hard to put a number on "significant," as I think it would have to be something that moves the needle for you.

There are posters here with Ferraris and planes, and their needles might not move at the same rate as those saving hard to join in on the fun.

But, if I was forced to say a number, I'd say a $20k discount from the price of a new comparably equipped MS 85 including tax credits, in addition to a mileage deduction of $.50 -$1.00 per mile.

My opinion is just an opinion. I think this is a hard problem, where friends are involved.

@mjs
thanks for your opinion. I do value people sticking out their neck and puting a number out.
I personally think I would be ok with USD 12k-15k as I think the batery is the largest risk and I read that to swap it out after 8 years costs USD 12k.

If it fails before that I am not sure what the options are.

I will be watching what others have to say and update the forum if I indeed buy the car.

Battery is much more expensive than that - 12K was the price to pay Tesla now for a new battery in 8 years. They were hedging that costs will come down over 8 yrs (plus they get to hold your money all that time) - I would expect it to cost $25-40k for a new battery if you had to get it without warranty. You could email service@teslamotors.com and ask - perhaps I'm off, but I think I'm closer to reality than your 12k estimate. There have also been may instances of screen failures ($5k or more), and other potential issues - I stick with my half price or forget it recommendation.

Are all warranties voided on the S or does it still have the battery warranty? To me, that would make a HUGE difference. Personally, I wouldn't even consider an S without the battery warranty, but then we drive ours a lot :)

Yes, I don't think the battery could be off warranty. The battery warranty is separate from the warranty for the rest of the car. Elon has said that they will replace the battery even if the owner was negligent and abused the battery (eg letting it brick). I would check with Tesla, but I highly doubt the battery warranty has been voided. The warranty for the rest of the car may have been voided, but those are much much lower costs if something breaks.

The only reason for voiding the warranty would be removing the car from US-Can. That was discussed, and the actual policy didn't "intend" to disallow brief trips etc., just foreign legal entanglements etc.

I guess some unauthorized mod might do it, but there are legal limits to that kind of cancellation. It has to be relevant and material to the damage claim.

The 12K pre-buy is cancelled, AFAIK.

Could mean TM doesn't really expect anyone to want the same old capacity in 8 yrs.!

@brian I think the answer to that will come later this year when the first battery swap station is open for business.

I've been told that the (1% for each month of age) is longer a factor anymore. Anyone else hear that?

I think the Sigs will be worth more, just like the Mustang '64 1/2s. And if it has the Sig burgundy even more so. Those 1000 are unique and will never be seen again, and they are the pioneers.


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