As many as in the United states?
At least 150 Superchargers in Europe? But I would prefer even more.
It wouldn't be nice if a certain part of Europe is left out.
@ Brian, Kleist & Timo
But those battery packs have been devoloped to be used in a driving EV. Can they also be used in a garage where the battery pack does not move at all? I mean to say that these batteries then only are used for temporary storage of electricity, so that the stored electricity can be transferred to the battery of an EV?
Benz; You are sometimes so enthusiastically confused it's hard to grasp. A battery stores charge, whether it moves or not. Direct DC/DC battery transfer "averages" charge levels. A big battery can thus charge a small battery without losing much voltage.
"Direct DC/DC battery transfer "averages" charge levels. A big battery can thus charge a small battery without losing much voltage."
That is good.
What is the current price of such a massive battery? Does anybody have an idea?
I don´t think that todays batteries are good enough to store energy that will then charge other batteries. Batteries both "uncharge" themselves and lose capasity over time. I think a better way to store the energy would be using hydrogen. Whenever someone plugged their Tesla in, the hydrogen could be used to power a generator that would charge the car. This way you could also store more energy in less space.
So you're comfortable driving a hydrogen bomb?
Vawlkus; No ignition A-bomb to set off the fusion reaction. Storing hydrogen is tough, though. It leaks.
If you would come up with residential, nightly park&charge garages, actually storing the energy (from a relatively small PV system) would not be beneficial or cost effective. As you would be able to sell your generated kWh at the peak (selling) price, and then charge the batteries of the cars using the off-peak (asking price). You would be able to make a pretty sustainable business out of it.
I hope they also take into account that most highways in Europe have quite high speed limits (130km/h / 80mph), which according to this blog is (in theory!) around: - 200 miles (320km) for the 85kWh, - 150 miles (240km) for the 60kWh.
Gentleman, driving in The Netherlands, with a 85kW Model S means that you will need definitely 4 SuperChargers. The reason is as follows; living in the centre (say Utrecht) and driving down to the South (say Terneuzen) would mean a travel distance of 420km (2-way). Based on the fact that the speed limit on the motorway is 120 or 130km/hr it woud mean that you will need approx. 80kW as the Model S is making max. 5km at 1kW. As the batterypack will never allow you to use 80kW you cannot even cover this distance without re-charging. As I am driving an Ampera at this moment I KNOW that is the South West there is no possibility to charge the batteries within less than 4-6 hours as there are no public chargers. Probably this will answer some of your queries and show that one will have to build at least four chargers in The Netherlands. Ab
I'm assuming TM might need to put them at around 200km apart from each other. They can choose to put them in between big cities, but in the BENELUX, this becomes really odd as major cities are < 100km apart.
So here is my guestimated proposal for Belgium: 1 at the border of NL A16 (Breda)- BE E19 (A'pen) 1 at the border of FR A22 (Lille) - BE E17 (Kortrijk) 1 at the border of NL A2 (Maastricht) - BE E42(Liège) 1 at the border of LUX A3 - FR A31 (Thionville)
In NL a similar pattern around the 'Randstad' could provide the required range extension for road trips. In France and Germany the SC would more likely be positioned similar to the US pattern.
Yeah, as far apart as possible to maximize their "efficiency", but as close as necessary to make them reachable by most drivers. Of course, if the cities are really close, they're not as needed.
I really like the philosophy of Tesla, and I think they are on the right way. There are not many people which really do long time trips verry often (>6 times per year). But for my Tesla car I would expect to reach any destination without a big effort, means, I would not like to take more than half an hour of extra miles to charge my car. So for many people from Germany, it will be a knockout criteria if they could not convenient drive to the favorite holiday location in winter to the alps (Austria, Swiss, France), and summer holidays to Italy to the beach.
Therefore I think it is important to consider the typically long distance trips from a country itself, and the typically trips through a country. For example in a small country like Austria I would wish to have at least 4 super charger stations at Vienna, Salzburg, Graz, Innsbruck. Optionally I would suggest Bregenz, Klagenfurth, Linz. Linz is strategically important, since many drives to Germany or the Czech Republic pass through the city. In North Italy I would prefer Bolzano or Trento, Verona, Venezia, Trieste. In Ex Jugoslavia Zagreb, Lublijana, Sarajevo, Zadar, Duzbrovnik.
I hope my next car will be an electric one. I hope model X meets my requirements, space for 3 Kids + space for Skis/Snowboard, enough super changing stations in and around Austria, able to charge my care in 30 min, and an acceptable price. However based on my current salary I would like to by not more than 35k€ for a car, this seems to be the biggest challenge. If Tesla can meet this requirements I would not see any reason, to by any other car.
@jaeger0 They are placing SuperChargers between cities or in very small ones. Reason is very simple, they don't want you to charge there on daily basis. But yes, I agree that Tesla needs to put SuperCharging in every country because people will go for vacations between countries. For example we went from Czech Republic to Italy several times and we went by car, not by plane.
right, I do not see the need for free charging, or daily charge on a supercharger station. Most time people will charge at home, or at work. This is or will be possible for many people even in city's many people have a garage, or a parking garage. I just want to say. If there is a reasonable grid of convenient charging station, where I can charge my car in around 30 Min (which is ok, for a lunch, or longer coffee break), then I would feel 100% sure to reach anything. Means with my electric care I can do 100% of my travel. Not like the philosophy of many other producers like BMW, VW, Renaut, which focus on the two car strategy, one small electric one for short distances, and one for larger travels. I do not need and want two cars.
Dots on a map with range circles around them do not tell the story. Stop it!
If you can't install a charger available at home, and you are low, do you drive to a dot to get a charge and then drive back home?
Are you going to a public charger and wait an hour for 16 miles of driving? That is absurd.
Densely situated Superchargers and swapping stations are the only real answer. They need to be in every city, town, community and along driving routes. I suggest a for-profit model to speed the adaptation. This would be even more successful in Europe where gas prices are so high and in Asia where so many people live in apartment buildings and condos.
Jolinar; The more important reason is that they are not as useful at the origin or destination as they are in-between. That's where you need the boost - in the middle of your trip, not at the beginning or end. People don't "fear" running out of charge at home or after arrival; overnight charging is available there, in general. It's the missing middle that needs to be filled.
carlgo; The solution to the no-home-charging apartment and condo problem will have to wait. When saturation of the rest of the market is in sight, there will be ideas and schemes aplenty, probably, but it is silly to try and deal with that up front.
It won't be long before the GenIIIs are out and marketed to a broad and fickle population that will hear a lot of negativity about electric cars. Charging will be foremost on their minds.
The only important question is how to get enough stations and then how long is the wait at them. Even magical 1000-mile batteries need charging and people will still want convenient local access to the charger/swapper.
So, Brian H, there really isn't much to wait on. Stations need to be built regardless of anything else. There are questions of technology that Tesla already knows which will determine the specifications. For example, if the next gen battery can be charged fully and quickly, then swapping stations are not needed, but maybe a new charger cable is. All this is arcane stuff that Tesla people solve on napkins at lunch.
Tesla has to make a decision on whether to monetize these station or not, or to franchise or partner-up. Unless Tesla wants to be the world's gas station and make that a new and somewhat separate business, it would probably be better to let others expand the charger base and use the profit motive to make this happen.
Well, we'll see. I doubt that those approaches or solutions will be used. In-city charging will certainly be a prominent issue within a few years, though.
Large capacity batteries will not solve power access issues on their own, of course. They might make swapping more attractive.
I hope Tesla doesn't look at Europe from a "too US-minded" perspective, because the one thing they have to take into account is that average speed limit on European highways is 85 mph (130 kmh), not 55 or 65. If they set their SC network based on the assumption that drivers would have the same range as in the US and expecting them to drive 55, that would be a huge mistake.
@Chacsam - who drives 55 or 65 in the US ? 100 to 120 miles distance between SC like in the US should also do it in Europe. The lower distance from the orginal US plan is required for the SC enabled 60 kWh models. In Europe ( or at least in Germany which carries most of the long distance travel ) you have these great fast in fast out rest stops every 30 miles - perfect locations for SC. Start with a enabling network and then fill in as needed. The MS is not designed for the European market - it is designed for the American market... too big for European garages, not enough top speed for German Autobahn,... I think Tesla needs to learn from the MS experience and incororate the lessons into Gen3 which just size wise fits much better into Europe. In the US the MS heavily depends on home charging ( most garages have a high power dryer outlet ), in Europe this infrastructure does not exist - even if you own a house it is mainly curb parking. There we need fresh ideas.
@Kleist who buys such a car and drives 85 on highways in Europe? ;-) Let's not even mention Germany and their free autobahn. If the announced top speed of 210 kmh is real, it should be enough for most people: even on those autobahns, you don't see that many people driving above 200 kmh. Regarding the garages, people buying a 100k€ car usually have a fair garage (city parkings is another story indeed)
yea, people buying 100k€ cars definitely have own garage in most cases. I don't remember anybody with such expensive car parking regularly on the curb. Well, at least in CR.
Think beyond the 100k Euro car - same problem exists for a 30k Euro car. One of the major conveniences of the Tesla in US is the overnight charging in your garage. That infrastructure is not widespread in Europe - still a problem waiting for a solution.
Again, I have to note that this does not apply to entire Europe. It is more a problem to cramped up southwest part of the Europe than rest of the Europe. Of course city dwellers in pretty much everywhere in world have a problems with parking space and lack of garages.
I hope in future there would be some sort of wireless curb charging for everyone in every city, but for that to happen before GenIII is widespread....no chance.
If Tesla is listening, you should figure out something for us city dwellers too. More than half of world population is living in cities that are just getting bigger every day.
I have been told by local Tesla people in Brussels that they were planning 1 SC station in Belgium before the end of this year, but they seemed to feel like one for the whole country should be enough.
That's pretty much correct: Belgium is small country, from Arlon to Oostende (pretty much corner to corner) is just a bit over 300km according to Google maps. You can't get too far away from SC no matter where you put it in Belgium, so if you put it roughly middle of the country you have it less than 100 mile away from everywhere.
But it may not be on the route you want or need to get there. Really complex.
Convenience is important to people. And their choices do depend on that. Charging an EV has to be convenient in order for EV's to be the dominant means of transportation on the roads. The Supercharger network is a part of the charging infrastructure. Therefore I think that just one Supercharger location in Belgium is not enough.
Are you sure the ox carts you have seen were in Hungary? Sounds more like Romania or Cuba :)
European borders are not like the one between California or Mexico. They are basically nonexistent. The only way you know you have crossed a border is because the signs are in different language. No lineups, no passport check. Nothing.
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