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Tesla and Phinergy

I wonder if Tesla has thought about or is working with Phinergy, the Israel based company that is inventing the newest best batteries for electric vehicles (IMO).

I just saw that they have worked on a 50 cell pack that has moved a less energy efficient electric car (compared to Tesla's standards) 400 miles, and can actually go over 1000. Inst new more efficient batter technology needed to extend range and reduce the cost of building an electric car?

What do you guys think about Phinergy? What does Elon Musk and Tesla engineers think?

If you haven't heard of it, here is one of their videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6kIJlgqezE

They kind of glossed over the fact in the video but I don't think we have electrically rechargeable metal-air batteries yet. You have to "mechanically" exchange the oxidized metal. I recall that there was a post on TMC showing that Tesla had actually submitted a patent that incorporated a metal-air battery as a sort of "fuel tank". It's too costly to be the primary source of power but could be useful on road trips similar to battery swapping.

It's interesting, and the high energy density is important, but so is the cost. We could have a 1,000 mile Li-ion battery for the Model S too; it would just cost a lot.

Also, refueling the metal-air battery is inconvenient. I assume you're supposed to use pure water, which, right now, you could only buy it at the grocery store in plastic jugs.

I suppose it could have a water purifier in it, but then that would make it less efficient and higher maintenance.

Given the Metal-Air patents Tesla has, the 'obvious' frunk spot where such a battery could go, and the fact that such a battery is 'manageable' in size and weight, it could be a future upgrade and refer to the 'recharge is less than it takes to refuel' statement of EM. So recharging would not happen at home, but rather you'd get/recharge/drop off a Metal-Air pack at a service center.

The only problem would be it you had loaded up the frunk with luggage and such. So based on that problem, I still do not believe a Metal-Air battery in the frunk will arrive anytime soon. Let's hope I'm all wrong on that.

Some who have disassembled the back of the frunk say there is no wiring or provisions for wiring a supplementary battery there. So not a quick fix or implementation. Oh, well.

All that would be needed is a connector to the onboard charger from the frunk battery. The fact that there is no connections NOW should not be considered evidence of it's impossibility.

its
Rewiring existing cars is highly unlikely. I think this is a dead end speculation.

It's all pure speculation, so why no speculate there is a way to connect it all together.

If (big if) the metal-air battery were ever to be available as an upgrade to the current Model S, then is would certainly require a stop at the service station to get that system installed. It will not be that you pick it up and DYI it in your car. So whatever would be needed will be done at the service center.

Btw: there were no connectors for the parking sensors, yet they are now available for new EU models.

@rlarno,

Great point re: parking sensors. Connecting a cable between a single use battery and the charging system IS NOT highly unlikely.

In fact Tesla considered it so likely that they filed a patent to protect THAT EXACT INVENTION.

Possibly for GenIII or MS 2.0. Or the hi-power pickup (or other truck) Elon mentioned.

The frunk is only inches away from the DC electronics, which is behind the right front wheel under the quarter panel. (Watch that first-responders video showing the Fremont FD taking apart a S.). Great place to plug in a supplementary battery.

True, forgot about that video. Could be, could be ...

Pretty interesting. Looks like the perfect technology for an electric boat! Maybe Tesla should do a Ski Boat using this technology in the future. That would be awesome, one of the biggest turn offs of riding on a small boat like a ski boat is the engine noise. This would be a perfect solution.

This rather small and messy frunk mounted battery seems more like a range extender than a quick-charge solution. There has to be at least some range for the quick-charge solution to be viable and worthy of the definition.

I'm surprised no one mentioned this before but I just found this article:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1083111_phinergy-1000-mile-aluminum-...

In it the CEO is quoted as saying they have a contract to deliver production volumes in 2017 with an unnamed global automaker. What if that automaker is Tesla? In my mind this further cements Thursday's announcement to be a main battery pack swap since it sounds like al-air technology is just not there yet. However, it also convinces me that al-air batteries will very likely be part of the Gen III models and maybe the Gen II refresh.

TM has its own patents in the area, of course.

I think that the Model S could fit a Al-Air battery in the trunk. There is a space beneath the floor of the trunk. Easy access for swap like the main battery and can be filled with water from the right rear tail light (should install a hose connection like the available one for electrons in the left tail light).
When the Al-Air not installed, the space is used for storage.
When go in long trip, go to Tesla Station, install in 90 seconds a extented Al-Air battery and pay for it (maybe 2 options - 500 or 1000 miles or more). You will fill with water when it is low, no problem!
Easy like you say: "Bye-Bye gas!"

Aluminum anode batteries are definitely the future-- like the Phinergy battery--only even more tweaked--- but you have to think of them more like the FUEL is aluminum ----- just like the aluminum/drano thing... Phinergy definitely got a spin on a better battery-- but ulitimately I think that super batteries are still evolving and there may yet be some strange hybrid of battery/hho battery/motor yet to come..soon!

what about lonnie johnson. he was the originator of this battery here in the states. he has done work for nasa as well. look him up..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2og084xdgQM

Since the aluminum is oxidized and must be replaced, they are limited in usefulness.

@ Brian H | June 4, 2013

<< Rewiring existing cars is highly unlikely. I think this is a dead end speculation. >>

TM has pledged to keep all MS vehicles up to the latest innovations, with all retrofitting as needed, including FWD.

So, rewiring is just ... piece of cake.

No, and no. TM has not pledged that, and tearing apart the car to rewire it is not happening. >;p

This battery looks very interesting, the one thing they glossed over is how much water it needs. It is clearly a lot because they say you have to fill up every 200 miles, so there is clearly a volume/weight issue. I don't think it is a big deal considering many stores have water dispensers that sell drinking water for 35 cents a gallon and somebody could easily figure out a way to store the used water. This would make a great range extender in passenger cars or could have a more useful role in commercial vehicles with a small lithium battery.

I think the 'used water' is chemically transformed, and is part of the used battery, and no longer a liquid.

It can be recycled when one fills up with more clean water. The fact it can be recycled will bring the cost of aluminum for the battery down. The battery is essentially a way to store cheap hydro from Quebec and Iceland for use in autos and other things.

[ASIDE:] The strange thing about Lonnie G. Johnson's work, is that I'm certain he's brilliant, but it seems as if he is hiding something too. It's almost as if he doesn't want to actually say something in particular, either because he doesn't want to give the wrong impression, or in order to protect a patent pending concept.

Some of the things he says seem to point in the same direction as a hydrogen fuel cell, but he keeps calling it battery technology instead. Some of the things he says might even be a literal water powered motor, but then he says other things that would contradict that assumption.

I would hope he'd be able to work with Elon Musk, but he seems more interested in working with other auto manufacturers, to improve their hybrid technologies significantly. If he is actually speaking of batteries, he'd do best to work with Tesla Motors. If it is closer to Fuel Cells, then someone else instead.[/ASIDE]

BS. It doesn't run on water, it runs on oxidation of metal. When the metal is all oxidized, it must be dumped or exchanged.

As far as rebuilding batteries physically are concerned, Deutsche post had a fleet with non rechargeable Zinc air batteries (fuel cells), which were mechanically taken out and rebuilt in shops about every 300 miles.
This was in 1994.

In 1997 the first modern and functional AC inverter creator (did the first AC drive trains-including predecessor to the one in the Tesla), made first rechargeable zinc air batteries. They were series production ready and used in buses in Singapore. They also needed liquid replenishment every now and then.

It is a cheaper alternative and shuns any rare earths and materials, so in principle, it is the one to pursues. I think the ones from 1997 had some
150Wh/kg or something like that.

So this is a similar approach. But these all appear to be fuel cells. They have advantages over batteries, if they can use ambient air for reactions, rather than needing to store all elements inside, which is why lithium batteries (and others) have such meager capacity/kg, measured against oil, etc.

TM's LiIon cells don't use any rare earths.

TM cells contain couple of rather expensive elements though, like cobalt. There are li-ion chemistries that don't use any even slightly rare elements, just silicon, iron, carbon, stuff like that (lithium is common element).


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