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German pricing, I'm in tears and out of the game

In Germany the Tesla Model S will cost MORE €UROS THAN $ IN US!... so, the price is more than 30% above the US-pricing!
That's real bad, Teslas. I'm a stockholder, reservationholder and follower since 2010, but this is just ... wordless.
Better, I use my ICE for the next Years and everyone else should, too ... the teslaguys always told me, there will be more or less 15% priceincrease, but 30%?
71000€ for the 60KW/h and more than 100.000€ pricing for the performance is just barefaced.
If Your goal is to bring EV's to a broader market, just make a fair price!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-20/tesla-begins-europe-push-with-h...

Whity, the real comparison is to the competition. How does it compare to Mercedes or BMW. ? Lexus and Infinti?

But the pricing makes sense when you include VAT and taxes? In Norway the performance is priced at approx. €80.000 (no VAT or taxes on MS), add 25% VAT and you get €100.000 (and that´s before other taxes that might occur in other countries).

This is the first time I have seen a car that is cheaper in Norway than Germany, see how long it lasts when the government see how popular the MS will be...

30% includes VAT which is in germany 19%, that leaves 11% which might consist from delivery costs from US to Europe. If you add that delivery cost (constant figure) first, which you probably have to, then that VAT is actually more than 19% of US price.

30% is not much IMO. I'm expecting closer to 100% for Finland.

What percent is the VAT?
I calculated a 35.17% increase.
I was using the $59,900 + $7,500 + $2,500.

Sorry to hear about such a huge jump in costs. What about a US delivery and pricing, opposite of the BMW pick up thing? You would be buying a used car, maybe cheaper?

What taxes are involved there? Don't forget that in the US everything is quoted *before* tax.

I think sindremariero hits it on the spot: we need to look at the Norwegian prices because they do not include VAT (or, rather, they include the Norwegian 0% VAT). I made a very fast and sloppy calculation based on the 85 kWh, using reasonable exchange rates etc. - this shows a ~15% price increase over the US prices.

Whity Whiteman, US prices include federal tax credit and do not include VAT if I am right...

if my calculations are right... EU prices in USD are (VAT excluded):
79200$ for basic 60kWh instead US 69900$
121110$ for basic signature performance instead US 107900$
that means less than 15% increase in price, so actually Tesla gut was right, you just have to take in account much higher VAT in Europe...

well, you are lucky guys in US that you have so low VAT and lax credit for EVs...

PS: VAT in Czech Republic will be 21% next year, damn...

Norway price for Perfomance: 80,714.00 EUR
German price for Perfomance: 95,900.00 EUR

Difference: 19%. German VAT 19%. No VAT in Norway, so German base price before VAT is pretty much same.

US price for performance: $69900 + $7500 = $77400 = 58,347.24 EUR

Difference to Norway = 22,366.76 EUR.

That's rather high "delivery cost". There seems to be quite high EU extra in those prices, so disappointment in understandable.

Timo, the US price for performance is $84,900 plus the $7,500 tax credit plus the $2,500 price increase - that's a total of $94,900! Your math is way off.

Timo, I like your approach, but did not you use an incorrect US price (non-P 85 kWh) for the Performance? Using current exchange rates, I get these numbers:

Norway price for P: 80,714.00 EUR
US price for P: 69,656.00 EUR
Increase US -> Norway: 11,058.00 EUR = 15,87%

It is important to remember that all US prices are quoted without ANY applicable taxes because they vary from state to state. Therefor if you want to compare the Euro price you need to deduct the VAT (and duty) from the German pricing. VAT (Mehrwertsteuer) alone is close to 20%. I have no idea what German customs (Zoll) slaps onto US made cars.

Timo,
US price for performance is $84,900 + 7500 (tax credit) + 2500 (price increase) = 94,900$ before VAT = 71747eur before VAT.
German performance 80588eur before VAT (95,900e including VAT).
So the difference is 8,841eur between US price and German price for performance not 22,366eur.

$69,900 + $7500 is 85kWh basic (no performance, no price increase).

...and I forgot to include the price increase in the US price. However, ~15% still holds true.

... than my question is: does the netherlands-distribution-center not change the VAT? If You produce in Europe instead of US...

and Jolinar, maybe You got it wrong. The price difference for the 60KWh-model is

Germany $94,370 US $67,400 ....
THAT's 40% !!!

Sounds like a broken promise to me. Is Tesla struggeling with revenue, that they need to do this? I was shure to buy the Performance, but know I think, I will not buy anything... except the stock triples in the next months

tomas.hutters,
yes, it is something between 10-15% price increase for EU, I hoped for less increase, but maybe import duties or local fees are more than I expected...

Whity Whiteman,
you are wrong... German 71.400 € = $94,440 however this include VAT while US price don't... You can not compare price with VAT and price without VAT :(

Whity Whiteman,
German without VAT is $79,361
US without VAT is 59,900+7500+2500 = 69,900
difference is only $9,461 before applying VAT. That means it is price increase 14% for Tesla. For customers it is more because VAT in Europe is way higher than in US. You see it as higher difference because you didn't count all stuff in it.

Oops, my mistake everyone. Got confused about third battery choice being standard 85kWh and not the performance like it is in European sites (no 40kWh version on European sites).

there is a 10% import duty too before VAT for US cars

if somebody wants to see EU prices without VAT you can choose region "Other Europe" and then select Options & pricing. That are the prices without VAT for less prospective markets in EU....

Taking into account the VAT and credit differences the base 60kW car will cost exactly 60.000 euros in Holland (excl. VAT). That is an 11% increase compared to the US price (dollar vs euro = 0,78). I would consider that way more than some business expenses, but I just checked: importing a US car into Holland is subject to a 10% duty.
I don't know if that is true for the whole of Europe, but it is something that puts the increase in another perspective. Also, we could/should have checked this bofore the announcements of today.
This may be a case of `Earth calling Fred, please exit virtual reality please` :-(

but again: does the european facility not change the VAT-issue because of inner-european-production?

Whity, don't mix up VAT ("Mehrwertsteuer") and import duty ("Einfuhrzoll"). VAT is due on all items that are sold to consumers. The only way to avoid it is to buy the Model S (or any car) for business.

Whity Whiteman,
well, dont know exactly however if 95% of he car is produced in US and only some finishing stuff in EU, I guess it won't change anything :(
But maybe I am wrong on this subject, I have no idea how much of the car is produced in US and how much will be finished in EU.

Jolinar, as far as I can tell, you are right on.

I am bit dissapointed that they didn't say anything about 3-phase charging in Europe. Elon confirmed it on twitter long time ago, but nothing else since than. Even this web is completly silent on this topic... I am still scared that it won't be true 3-phase but only some kind of using between-phase voltage -> and than not true 20kW :(

It is weird to know the price but don't know what is included in this price. At least they could put it on bulletin board.

ähm, is there no VAT in the US? They buy it "netto"?

Whity, in the United States, each state has its own tax laws with different VAT and different EV incentives. They have to pay VAT, but prices are usually quoted without, because otherwise you couldn't give a price without knowing which state the customer is in. Americans are used to put on the applicable VAT by themselves. In most European countries, on the other hand, it is forbidden by law to quote prices of consumer goods without VAT included. This is to protect the consumer from getting a wrong impression of the price he or she is going to pay. It may also be convenient for the government that this rule covers up how much VAT we are paying. It simply evades us, but 19% is substantial.

My US P85 had $8500 tax bill with another $750 in fees for registration, license, etc.
The car cost was a bit over 100k

To Jolinar
I was in Tesla Store Eindhoven 7 days ago and I got confirmed that Model S for Europe will come with 3-phase charger.


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