Fora

WORDT DEEL VAN DE COMMUNITY
REGISTREERINLOGGEN

Spuerchargers to accomodate 40kWH models

Scenario:
I'm expecting my 40kwh in May/June (I hope!)
I live in Boston.
I want to travel to New York City.
I'm 147 miles from the Milford Supercahrger.

Questions:
1) Will this car make this trip with any miles to spare?

2) I understand that the way the Superchargers are now configured, they will not accommodate a 40kwh battery.
Bummer!
Does anyone think it's a good idea for TM to add less powerful equipment to the Superchargers that won't damage the 40kwh battery? Or do you suspect a parking space constraint to which TM is subject?

Tesla are on record as saying the CHAdeMO adapter will be available in Japan, and will probably come to the US. No dates, and no hard confirmation.

Geez, people. Enough! There is a SuperCharger option for the 40. It's called the 60.

Seriously. You want a Model S with the SC option, it exists. Buy that one. Don't buy the one without, and complain that it doesn't have the option you didn't buy.

Recall that there is also hardware that must be installed in the car (direct to battery DC wiring) to use the SCs. The 40 didn't get it for three reasons:

- the wiring costs more, but the focus of the 40 was to keep costs down for those who just want an in-town car
- a suitably wired 40 *could* get half a charge in 30 minutes, but it would only be getting 50 miles or so of real range. That won't get you to LA.
- at the point where the hypothetical 40 gets the increased investment SC wiring, it might as well also get the 60 battery. Why invest in a fast way to fill a small container?
- there is already a solution for customers who want range and inter-town travel in the 60 and 85. Supply has met demand.
- yes, admittedly, standard business "price discrimination". And if you don't know what that economics/business term is, just look it up. It's not entirely evil, it's a way of segmenting the market.

SC stations cannot have all charge formats on the tower, or they would be clogged up with people pulling a low-amp charge to their other cars for 5 hours. It is a FAST charging station for Tesla owners who chose a model that can take advantage if it in 30 minutes or so.

There absolutely should be other charging options at these same locations, but not in the same parking spot. What a bloody waste it would be to have a 30 Amp charge taking place in the SC spot. Its akin to cars cruising in the freeway passing lane doing 30mph -- they are using a resource that could be far more efficient, and causing congestion for those who are prepared to use the resource to its full capacity.

There are cost, efficiency, and marketing reasons behind the decision to not SC the 40. You don't need to understand them before making your choice. You should understand them before complaining about Tesla's choices.

Cmeyers crapped on Carefree for having a huge ego. What are you talking about? There's no ego at play here. You are free to buy whichever model suits your needs, Cmeyers. The SC club is not exclusive. But don't buy a bench seat pickup truck and complain that it doesn't have the four doors and passenger capacity of the crew cab.

@jat

The value of a CHAdeMO adapter to TM is not in the profit generated by building and selling it. The value is that it will help sell cars. CHAdeMO has become the fast-charge DC standard for the West Coast Green Highway (http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/), from Canada down to Mexico, funded in part by my tax dollars. Yes, it competes with the supercharger network (from my point of view, competition is a good thing), but the fact is that CHAdeMo chargers are out there now. They will be installed in many locations where there are no superchargers. When I drive from Seattle to my brother's house in the Bay Area, I would need to go 80 miles out of the way to use the Folsom supercharger, which I believe is intended to service this route. The main point of resistance in purchasing a BEV is the difficulty of using it for long distance travel. Broadening our charging opportunities can only be good for TM's business.

I was assuming, I guess, that this was the reason that from the beginning TM has been saying that the CHAdeMO adapter was a difficult and unlikely project. Not certain that it will be released outside Japan, in any case.

@nickjhowe - where are they on record saying so? AFAIK, the only "record" has been an unattributed quote on a Japanese web site.

@BrianH - there may be other reasons why it is difficult, such as if the voltage or control over the current required by the Model S isn't directly supported by CHAdeMO, but the number of data lines is not something particularly difficult to implement.

@DouglasR - I agree CHAdeMO is here now (in some places, there is one in TN somewhat close to me but I haven't seen one yet), but there is still question of whether it will be successful as only Nissan and Mitsubishi are supporting it. All the other manufacturers are behind the SAE DC charging system, which has no cars and no chargers deployed. In Europe, even Renault seems to be embracing high-current AC charging instead.

And regarding selling more cars, that doesn't appear to be a problem at the moment with 9+ months of backlog from the Q4 financials report. By the time they get caught up, there may be more clarity of whether CHAdeMO will win or not.

Anyway, I hope they do make it and I would likely buy one if they did even with poor prospects for ever using it, but I wouldn't expect it any time soon.

@jat - you are correct. My bad.

Jat;
Since there are 8 different lines, they require 8 distinct inputs. How can TM "implement" that with 2 feeds? Enquiring minds want to know.

The two feeds could be some form of serial communication, not nessessary an on/off indication.

@Brian H | MARCH 6, 2013: How can TM "implement" that with 2 feeds? Enquiring minds want to know.

Brian, you keep mentioning those 8 inputs all the time and now something about 2 feeds? Here is a diagram of the CHAdeMO to vehicle interface. The Tesla adapter implements the car part and translates signals to the HPC interface:

http://www.chademo.com/wp/technology/details/

I looked up the Chademo pin layout and 5 of the pins are for simple analog enable/disable and start/stop signals. Then they have 2 pins for CAN bus.

Assuming that the two pins on the Tesla connector are for serial communication of some sort as Chuck suggested then the adapter can have a circuit that simply generates these analog signals when told to do that.

Seems like a waste to have CAN bus and redundant analog signals but we are talking about a lot of electrical potential on these systems so redundant safety might be a good thing.

@BrianH - the car almost certainly does not speak the CHAdeMO protocol, and even if it did they would have to have some electronics in the adapter. If you are doing that, it is trivial to put a microcontroller with CAN support (there are many) in the adapter, and it can implement all those connections.

The Tesla connector has two large power pins and ground, and two data lines that surely implement some serial bus. So, the microcontroller speaks the CHAdeMO protocol (over CAN and the open-collector inputs) and talks to the car, and you use the car's contactor for the main power lines.

The only real question I have as far as feasibility is concerned is if the DC voltage/current available meets Tesla's needs and if the controls over it match what the car requires.

@jat@jaet.org | MARCH 6, 2013: The only real question I have as far as feasibility is concerned is if the DC voltage/current available meets Tesla's needs and if the controls over it match what the car requires.

The short answer is yes (see http://www.chademo.com/wp/technology/details/):

EV is the master of the charging current control. The fast charger controls the output current responding to the charging current request from the EV through CAN communication on a real-time basis. This mechanism enables the most appropriate and fastest charging based on the battery performance and usage environment. In order to make this control possible, CHAdeMO specifies the requirements for the response performance, current ripple, voltage ripple, and measurement accuracy of the current and voltage.

Very informative crowd "ambush" interview with GB on the subject of chargers. Menneke will be "native" to MS in Europe.

@AlexK - right, but notice "CHAdeMO specifies the requirements for the response performance..." -- if those requirements aren't strict enough for the Model S, then it will be a problem.


X Deutschland Site Besuchen